15:55:33 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pf
15:55:33 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/08/22-pf-irc
15:56:03 <Al> let's get on the phone and ask before doing that
15:56:07 <oedipus> ok
15:56:24 <oedipus> meeting: Ad Hoc Meeting on HTML5 Issues & Requirements
15:56:51 <Al> after
15:56:56 <oedipus> ok
15:57:00 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #pf
15:57:21 <Al> Zakim, room for 8 for 75 minutes?
15:57:22 <Zakim> ok, Al; conference Team_(pf)15:57Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 75 minutes until 1712Z
15:57:50 <Zakim> Team_(pf)15:57Z has now started
15:57:57 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
15:57:59 <Stevef> Stevef has joined #pf
15:58:07 <Al> Al has changed the topic to: PFWG working on HTML issues access code 26631#
15:59:01 <Joshue> Joshue has joined #pf
15:59:28 <Zakim> +??P5
15:59:29 <Joshue> waves at GJR
15:59:34 <Zakim> +??P6
15:59:50 <Joshue> and everyone else..
15:59:58 <oeddie> oeddie has joined #pf
16:00:05 <Stevef> zakim ??P5 is stevef
16:00:08 <oeddie> zakim, who is here?
16:00:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see Gregory_Rosmaita, ??P5, Al
16:00:09 <Zakim> On IRC I see oeddie, Joshue, Stevef, Zakim, RRSAgent, Al, oedipus, robburns_, trackbot
16:00:12 <oeddie> zakim, ??P5 is SteveF
16:00:12 <Zakim> +SteveF; got it
16:00:18 <Joshue> do we have a number yet?
16:00:35 <Al> Zakim, code?
16:00:35 <Zakim> the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Al
16:00:35 <Gez> Gez has joined #pf
16:00:41 <Joshue> i see it..
16:01:44 <Zakim> +??P1
16:01:54 <oeddie> zakim, who is here?
16:01:54 <Zakim> On the phone I see Gregory_Rosmaita, SteveF, Al, ??P1
16:01:55 <Zakim> On IRC I see Gez, oeddie, Joshue, Stevef, Zakim, RRSAgent, Al, oedipus, robburns_, trackbot
16:02:01 <Joshue> zakim, ??P1 is Joshue
16:02:01 <Zakim> +Joshue; got it
16:03:01 <Zakim> +??P2
16:03:23 <Stevef> zakim, ??P2 is gez
16:03:23 <Zakim> +gez; got it
16:03:45 <oeddie> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5 - needed additions?
16:03:57 <oeddie> TOPIC: Public Work Session?
16:03:59 <Al> agenda+ scribe
16:04:07 <Al> agenda+ public record?
16:04:14 <oeddie> SF: IRC record public - no problem with that
16:04:25 <oeddie> GJR: plus 1 to public
16:04:28 <Al> agenda+ agenda gathering
16:04:31 <Joshue> public record is fine with me..
16:04:35 <Al> agenda+ agenda ordering
16:05:11 <Laura> Laura has joined #pf
16:05:11 <oeddie> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/AccesskeyRequirements - based on RichS' proposal to pf list
16:05:51 <Joshue> Hi Laura!
16:05:59 <Laura> Hi
16:06:21 <Stevef> laura: you phoning in?
16:06:42 <robburns_> hello everyone. I'm observing on irc, but I don't have an adequate wifi connection for calling in.
16:07:43 <Laura> Steve: Maybe if I can...pretty swamped at the moment...Number?
16:07:56 <Al> Zakim, code?
16:07:56 <Zakim> the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Al
16:08:00 <oedipus> 1 617 761 6200 
16:08:06 <Joshue> zakim, mute me
16:08:06 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
16:09:27 <Joshue> zakim, unmute me
16:09:27 <Zakim> Joshue should no longer be muted
16:10:28 <Al> Laura, why not lurk in IRC until we get to something that pushes your buttons?
16:10:29 <Joshue> have we an agenda?
16:10:34 <Al> agenda?
16:10:50 <Laura> Al: sounds good
16:11:52 <Al> scribenick: Joshue
16:12:02 <Al> close agendum 1
16:12:52 <Joshue> Al: We shall be talking about things on the public record from HTML 5 WG, WAI-XTech and so on.
16:13:33 <Joshue> Al: We should go by what has already been said.
16:14:05 <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5
16:14:19 <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/A11ySnapshot2008-08
16:16:12 <Al> agenda+ @summary
16:16:14 <Joshue> Josh: Keep it private for now and we can publish later if we choose.
16:16:23 <Joshue> Al: Agenda items?
16:16:32 <Al> agenda+ @headers
16:16:42 <Joshue> Steve: @summary, headers/id, @alt
16:16:54 <Al> agenda+ @alt
16:17:16 <Al> agenda+ conformance and division among documents
16:17:33 <Joshue> Josh: DanC suggestion about schedule for issues
16:18:20 <Stevef> 21 Aug
16:18:21 <Stevef> 28 Aug ISSUE-55 head-profile
16:18:23 <Stevef>  4 Sep
16:18:24 <Stevef> 11 Sep ISSUE-32 table-summary
16:18:26 <Stevef> 18 Sep ISSUE-31 missing-alt
16:18:27 <Stevef> 25 Sep
16:18:29 <Stevef>  2 Oct
16:18:30 <Stevef>  9 Oct
16:18:32 <Stevef> 16 Oct
16:18:33 <Stevef> 23 Oct (TP week) ISSUE-41 Decentralized-extensibility (requirement)
16:18:35 <Stevef> 30 Oct
16:20:39 <Stevef> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-issue-tracking/2008Aug/0005.html
16:20:40 <Al> action: agilman share the briefing on 'mid' URLs in archive on the list
16:20:40 <trackbot> Created ACTION-237 - Share the briefing on 'mid' URLs in archive on the list [on Alfred S. Gilman - due 2008-08-29].
16:20:46 <Joshue> thanks Steve
16:22:01 <Stevef> re: @alt  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-au/2008JulSep/0074.htm  
16:22:37 <Laura> Sorry, Not Found.
16:23:10 <Joshue> Steve: Al can you explain where we are at now?
16:23:23 <Al> agenda?
16:23:37 <Joshue> zakim, who is making noise?
16:23:48 <Zakim> Joshue, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Joshue (18%), SteveF (65%)
16:24:19 <Al> agenda+ closing review, pubic record? and actions
16:24:32 <Zakim> +Laura
16:25:43 <Joshue> Al:  Head profile came out of yesterdays call.
16:26:13 <Joshue> GJR: There is an interesting comment on a phone call between chairs on handling feedback..
16:26:25 <Joshue> AL: They are trying to get their act together.
16:26:42 <Al> agenda+ head-profile
16:27:08 <Joshue> Al: Issue 55 has an issue page in the tracker.
16:27:18 <Joshue> Al: Is there an issue page on the wiki?
16:28:08 <Laura> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/55
16:28:14 <Joshue> Al: I want to find out what issues they wish to escalate etc.
16:29:06 <Joshue> Action: Josh to update issue tracker on mails between Gez and James.
16:29:06 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Josh
16:29:44 <Joshue> Action: Joshue to update issue tracker on mails between Gez and James.
16:29:44 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Joshue
16:30:37 <Al> topic: @headers
16:30:48 <Al> Zakim, take up agendum 6
16:30:48 <Zakim> agendum 6. "@headers" taken up [from Al]
16:32:07 <Joshue> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/57
16:32:09 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-html-wg-minutes.html
16:32:18 <Joshue> Josh:That is the headers/id
16:32:28 <Joshue> Laura:They wanted to close the action.
16:32:43 <Joshue> Josh: ISSUE-57
16:32:43 <Joshue> [dup] headers
16:32:43 <Joshue> [dup of 20] @headers are not dups
16:32:50 <oedipus> [fyi] @profile in HEAD discussion: http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-html-wg-minutes.html#item07
16:33:30 <Joshue> Josh: We can talk about this at the next HTML 5 WG call.
16:33:59 <Joshue> Josh: I will contact Mike Smith and ask him to add it to agenda.
16:34:39 <oedipus> [fyi on @profile in HEAD] ACTION-75 - http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/75 associated with ISSUE-55 - http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/55[fyi on @profile in HEAD] ACTION-75 - http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/75 associated with ISSUE-55 - http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/55
16:34:42 <Al> Zakim, close topic 6
16:34:42 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close topic 6', Al
16:34:49 <Al> Zakim, close agendum 6
16:34:49 <Zakim> agendum 6, @headers, closed
16:34:50 <Zakim> I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:34:51 <Zakim> 2. public record? [from Al]
16:34:57 <Al> agenda?
16:35:23 <Joshue> Al: Wants a recap on where we stand on @summary.
16:35:28 <Al> Zakim, take up agendum 5
16:35:28 <Zakim> agendum 5. "@summary" taken up [from Al]
16:36:26 <Joshue> @summary on telecon for the 11th.
16:36:45 <Joshue> Al: I don't know what the details of closing issues is.
16:36:48 <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/Action72Headers
16:36:58 <Joshue> Steve: We don't know how issues are closed.
16:37:41 <oedipus> listed as related is HTML WG ISSUE-20 - http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/20
16:38:47 <oedipus> HTML5 issue 20 raised by James Graham: "The table headers algorithm currently in the HTML 5 spec does not deal with some common table formats without significant additional markup using @scope. The algorithm to establish cell-header relationships in the absence of specific scoping for header cells can probably be improved in line with suggestions in the following urls:"
16:38:47 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Sep/0134.html and http://projectcerbera.com/blog/2007/11#day09
16:39:25 <Joshue> Al: There is an alternate path. The chairs are responsible for issues and setting agendas.
16:39:41 <Joshue> Al: We need to build a relationship with Mike and Chris to get issues to flow.
16:41:01 <Joshue> Al: Joshue should have ack from Mike or Chris as to how he can create issues etc.
16:41:34 <Joshue> Josh: I treat my Issue tracker privileges with care..
16:41:45 <Laura> Current Issue Definitions: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML#head-b1c997dd7648a369f4639d079c027d819abbecc4
16:42:12 <Laura> RAISED = Issue tracker staff suggests this is worth a WG discussion and potentially a decision.
16:44:12 <Joshue> Josh: We need a consensus on how to use the tracker now I am in the PF.
16:45:24 <Joshue> +1 to GJR
16:45:37 <Joshue> thats very positive GJR
16:47:29 <Joshue> Al: Raising an issue on the tracker should be one above posting to the list.
16:48:26 <Joshue> Josh: Well I consider raising an issue on the tracker to be tantamount to saying to the group - "Here is something important that warrants attention".
16:48:28 <Stevef> q+
16:48:39 <oedipus> ack Stevef
16:49:10 <Joshue> Stevef: What more do we need to do to bolster the case for @summary and other issues?
16:49:18 <Joshue> Al: What evidence do we have?
16:49:58 <Joshue> Al: There is discussion on WAI Liason archive.
16:50:04 <Joshue> Stevef: I have seen that..
16:51:12 <Joshue> Steve: Are you saying if we need to provide details of AT that support it.?
16:51:28 <Joshue> Stevef: That is also on the wiki.
16:51:34 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/wai-liaison/2008Aug/0009.html
16:52:10 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/32
16:52:12 <Joshue> Al: We may think something is common knowledge.. is it easy to find this info on the issue page on the HTML tracker.
16:52:35 <Joshue> Josh: This stuff is being done to death on the wiki and in the HTML 5 WG list..
16:52:39 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/66
16:53:02 <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/SummaryForTABLE
16:53:49 <Joshue> Josh: I have added GJRs suggested link to the wiki
16:54:24 <oedipus> josh, need to add link to wiki to issue page for issue 32 by editing issue 32
16:54:27 <Joshue> Stevef: The main evidence against this is a list of random pages from DMOZ that shows lots of time @summary is not used well.
16:54:57 <Joshue> Al: There are a variety of arguments. We need to ask those it benefitsw.
16:55:18 <oedipus> IMPORTANT "Related Note" on HTML WG ISSUE-32 page - "2008-03-23 19:32:35: Rejected by editor due to unclear problem description. [Ian Hickson]"
16:55:38 <Stevef> example summary uses - http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/summary.html
16:55:50 <Joshue> Josh: asking PWD about it would be a good idea.
16:56:25 <Joshue> Al: Dan has suggested a date for closure..
16:57:05 <Joshue> Al: Dan is treating this as a live issue. I was not sure how we have documented Oracle and other tools support for @summary.
16:57:22 <Joshue> GJR: There will be a vote to go to publication very soon.
16:57:55 <Joshue> GJR: It will be difficult to get the editor to get these changes in before the next draft.
16:58:26 <Joshue> Stevef: There is no agreed verbiage. The editor will not change anything he doesn't agree with.
16:58:59 <Joshue> Stevef: In terms of logical, evidence based and so on.
16:59:12 <Gez> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2008Aug/0153.html
16:59:48 <Joshue> Stevef: Ian said:I'm only going to make edits to the spec that I can substantiate through 
16:59:48 <Joshue> research or logical arguments. Continued appeal to authority in the face 
16:59:48 <Joshue> of this will not result in the changes to the spec that you desire.
16:59:55 <oedipus> compare to DanC's contemplative post: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/wai-liaison/2008Aug/0068.html
17:00:08 <Joshue> Stevef: he is categorical about this.
17:00:31 <Laura> Publication 10 September 2008 
17:00:31 <Laura> http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-html-wg-minutes.html#item09
17:00:46 <Joshue> Al: Thats not the deal that I have.
17:01:02 <Joshue> Stevef: He was musing whether you would reply.
17:01:16 <Joshue> Al: Thats an escalate point. I am not replying to that.
17:01:20 <Joshue> +q
17:01:34 <Joshue> Stevef: Are we going to have regular meeting?
17:02:30 <Joshue> zakim, mute me
17:02:30 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
17:03:01 <oedipus> AG: yes, we will have regular meetings, but don't know what schedule will be
17:04:02 <oedipus> ADJOURN
17:04:18 <Zakim> -Al
17:04:20 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
17:04:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/22-pf-minutes.html oedipus
17:04:29 <Joshue> zakim, unmute me
17:04:29 <Zakim> Joshue should no longer be muted
17:04:36 <robburns> robburns has joined #pf
17:05:32 <Zakim> -gez
17:05:36 <Zakim> -SteveF
17:06:00 <oedipus> rrsagent, set logs world-visible
17:06:24 <Laura> Josh: After the Meeting Adjourns
17:06:26 <Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/Teleconferences#head-fc4dc123aff0ffff346b5f4c49a8316c3f5a450b
17:06:42 <Joshue> rrsagent, make minutes zakim, please part
17:06:42 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes zakim, please part', Joshue.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:07:03 <Joshue> zakim, please part
17:07:03 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Gregory_Rosmaita, Al, SteveF, Joshue, gez, Laura
17:07:03 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pf
17:07:16 <Joshue> rrsagent, make minutes
17:07:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/22-pf-minutes.html Joshue
17:07:42 <Joshue> chair:Al
17:07:56 <Joshue> rrsagent, make minutes
17:07:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/22-pf-minutes.html Joshue
17:08:47 <Joshue> rrsagent, please part
17:08:47 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/22-pf-actions.rdf :
17:08:47 <RRSAgent> ACTION: agilman share the briefing on 'mid' URLs in archive on the list [1]
17:08:47 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/22-pf-irc#T16-20-40
17:08:47 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Josh to update issue tracker on mails between Gez and James. [2]
17:08:47 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/22-pf-irc#T16-29-06
17:08:47 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Joshue to update issue tracker on mails between Gez and James. [3]
17:08:47 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/22-pf-irc#T16-29-44