07:26:50 RRSAgent has joined #svg 07:26:50 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-svg-irc 07:26:52 RRSAgent, make logs public 07:26:54 Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG 07:26:54 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot 07:26:55 Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference 07:26:55 Date: 21 August 2008 07:27:08 Meeting: SVG Nuremberg F2F Day 1 07:27:22 Scribe: Cameron 07:27:25 ScribeNick: heycam 07:27:35 Present: Anthony, Cameron, Doug, Erik 07:30:29 Topic: Publication schedule 07:30:47 DS: It's important that we get the 1.2 Tiny spec to Rec by the end of the year 07:31:18 DS: because we have several standards bodies that have deps on this spec that need it to become Rec 07:31:42 DS: it's important for the mobile use 07:32:38 DS: i think it's important that SVG start focussing more on desktop browser uses soon 07:33:16 DS: in order to do this, we need to go to LC by the end of next month at the latest 07:53:13 ED: what do we need to get done for LC by the end of next month? 07:55:01 ED: the changes appendix will need to be updated 07:55:04 CM: a lot of work there 07:55:32 CM: what level of changes should we include there? 07:56:20 http://www.w3.org/2007/10/htmldiff 07:59:49 http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.2T/publish/changes.html 07:59:51 http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.2T/publish/changes.html 08:02:16 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/products/2 08:04:52 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/track/ 08:15:03 http://www.w3.org/2007/10/htmldiff?doc1=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2FSVGMobile12%2Fintro.html&doc2=http%3A%2F%2Fdev.w3.org%2FSVG%2Fprofiles%2F1.2T%2Fpublish%2Fintro.html 08:34:03 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/track/issues/1 08:34:08 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/track/issues/15 08:34:14 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/track/issues/258 08:34:20 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/track/issues/268 08:34:28 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/track/issues/274 08:34:36 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/track/issues/333 08:36:11 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/track/actions/1720 08:36:17 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/track/actions/1865 08:36:23 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/track/actions/1932 08:36:29 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/track/actions/1942 08:36:35 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/track/actions/1883 08:36:42 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/track/actions/1440 08:36:48 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/track/actions/1787 08:36:55 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/track/actions/1904 09:29:23 ed has joined #svg 09:38:26 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008JulSep/0131.html 09:38:27 heycam has joined #svg 09:49:03 Topic: Action/issue triage 09:49:39 CM: All of the 1.2T relevant actions/issues have been ported across to the new tracker 09:50:01 CM: one i'm not sure about is andreas' http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/track/actions/1787 09:50:51 DS: we could e-mail him 09:50:56 CM: probably best 09:51:06 CM: it's an action to check to make sure edits have been finished, i think 09:52:22 CM: andreas hasn't replied to kalle yet (which is the second part of that action) 09:56:02 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/products/2 10:04:30 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2003 10:05:33 CM: action is done, so i'll close the issue 10:06:22 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2014 10:07:22 CM: what is the wording in the spec about restricting the spaces? 10:08:24 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/spec/mobile/1.2/1.2NG/publish/linking.html#IntroFragmentsViews 10:08:27 Zakim has left #svg 10:08:44 Zakim has joined #svg 10:09:21 Zakim, remind me in 8 hours that you take more effort than you should 10:09:21 ok, shepazu 10:16:32 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Jun/0023.html 10:25:47 http://gbiv.com/protocols/uri/rfc/rfc3986.htmlhttp://gbiv.com/protocols/uri/rfc/rfc3986.html 10:38:28 Replace "Spaces shall not be allowed in fragment specifications and commas must be used to separate numeric values within an SVG view specification." 10:45:41 ACTION: Anthony to allow spaces in viewbox fragids and to suggest that percent-encoded spaces be used if spaces are used, and to reply to kalle 10:45:41 Created ACTION-2142 - Allow spaces in viewbox fragids and to suggest that percent-encoded spaces be used if spaces are used, and to reply to kalle [on Anthony Grasso - due 2008-08-28]. 10:45:51 ACTION-2142? 10:45:51 ACTION-2142 -- Anthony Grasso to allow spaces in viewbox fragids and to suggest that percent-encoded spaces be used if spaces are used, and to reply to kalle -- due 2008-08-28 -- OPEN 10:45:51 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2142 10:46:54 trackbot, close ISSUE-2014 10:46:54 Sorry, heycam, I don't understand 'trackbot, close ISSUE-2014'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help 10:47:37 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2021 10:53:51 We decide to punt ISSUE-2021 to SVG Core 2.0. 10:55:34 ISSUE-2021: ASV returns (0,0,400,400) for the test case. 10:55:34 ISSUE-2021 Bounding box of subject to aspect-ratio preservation undefined notes added 10:55:41 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2022 10:57:20 We decide to move ISSUE-2021 to Core. 11:01:56 CM: i don't think it should be unsupported or in error 11:02:19 CM: it should be valid, and then the processing due to eRR just happens if the resource is 404 or whatever 11:03:00 ED: eRR would mean that the rendering would stop there 11:04:36 so if you have an svg with three images in it, the svg has eRR="true" and then the second image is 404 11:05:03 then no image would be visible because of eRR 11:05:42 it's not in error, and the IRI isn't unsupported 11:05:52 it's just an effect of eRR handling 11:16:15 DS: unsupported values should be shown in the error console 11:16:42 DS: we can have a suggestion in the spec to say that if the UA has some notion of an error console or log, that it reports unsupported values and how they were remedied (the lacuna value used, etc.) 11:17:30 ACTION: Doug to add the suggestion to report unsupported values in the error console 11:17:30 Created ACTION-2143 - Add the suggestion to report unsupported values in the error console [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-08-28]. 11:20:19 DS: in Linking it says "a circular references represents an error", i don't like this 11:26:04 we decide to leave that to be an error 11:30:00 http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.2T/publish/struct.html#ExternalResourcesRequiredAttribute 11:30:08 Indicates that resources external to the current document are required. If an external resource is not available (for example the request for the required resource times out), progressive rendering is suspended, the load event is not fired for the element, and the document goes into an error state (see Error processing). The document remains in an error state until all required resources become available. 11:30:27 so...we should sync the wording in linking with this, saying "error state" but not "in error" 11:31:30 aemmons has joined #svg 11:53:28 restarting to recover bridge connection 12:27:20 hi, aemmons!! 12:27:47 Zakim has joined #svg 12:29:36 ed has joined #svg 12:41:43 From linking: "When attribute externalResourcesRequired has been set to true on the referencing element or one of its ancestors, then an unresolved external IRI reference (i.e., a resource that cannot be located) shall represent an error (see Error processing)." 13:04:13 [We discuss the newly introduced fallback behaviour in the Linking chapter, and decide it's too much of a change to introduce this late, and we'll move it to Core.] 13:11:42 We need an action to make the following changes in this section: 13:11:47 - move the first dot point about circular IRI references to a paragraph of its own (so it doesn't just apply to invalid IRI references, but any circular references 13:18:51 Replace: 13:18:52 When attribute externalResourcesRequired has been set to true on the referencing element or one of its ancestors, then an unresolved external IRI reference (i.e., a resource that cannot be located) shall represent an error (see Error processing). 13:18:52 With: 13:18:52 Note that when the attribute externalResourcesRequired has been set to true on the referencing element or one of its ancestors, then an unresolved external IRI reference (i.e., a resource that cannot be located) will result in special handling, see [definition of eRR]. 13:21:15 - Add an "invalid IRI reference" definition to intro.html 13:21:34 - Check that processing for invalid IRI references is defined for each attribute that can have an IRI reference 13:21:59 - Move the third bullet point to Core. 13:23:00 ACTION: Cameron to rework the invalid IRI reference section (14.1.4) as in the minutes here 13:23:00 Created ACTION-2144 - Rework the invalid IRI reference section (14.1.4) as in the minutes here [on Cameron McCormack - due 2008-08-28]. 13:24:49 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2027 13:27:13 ED: there were some files that referenced from elements something that had overflow 13:27:40 ED: i recall fixing some of those or all of those cases i found so that they contained the graphics within their area, so clipping wasn't an issue 13:28:03 AG: and when i investigated julien's email, i found that opera and bitflash did the same thing and produced the reference image we had 13:28:11 AG: so i suspect julien looked at the old version of the test suite 13:29:41 file://localhost/Users/ed2/w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.2T/publish/coords.html#EstablishingANewViewport 13:29:55 ACTION: Anthony to reply to Julien to say that the tests have been fixed in the new release and that there's something in the spec that warns against this clipping issue (in that URL above) 13:29:55 Created ACTION-2145 - Reply to Julien to say that the tests have been fixed in the new release and that there's something in the spec that warns against this clipping issue (in that URL above) [on Anthony Grasso - due 2008-08-28]. 13:46:34 ACTION: Cameron to take a quick look at 16.2.18 to see how to make it slightly better 13:46:34 Created ACTION-2146 - Take a quick look at 16.2.18 to see how to make it slightly better [on Cameron McCormack - due 2008-08-28]. 13:47:37 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2029 13:50:52 scribe: anthony 13:51:03 ED: Looks like everyone is in agreement to allow spaces 13:51:38 ACTION: Erik to change stroke-dasharray to allow space separated values 13:51:38 Created ACTION-2147 - Change stroke-dasharray to allow space separated values [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-08-28]. 13:52:35 Topic: ISSUE-2030 13:53:00 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2030 13:53:52 ED: Dino said he had an action to clean up feature string 13:54:16 ... Chris says that Mobile 1.1 had incorrect feature strings 13:54:27 ... compared to 1.1 Full 13:54:39 ... but does Tiny 1.2 have new feature strings? 13:54:43 CM: Dunno 13:55:51 ... so in Tiny 1.2 does it have any of the 1.1? 13:56:21 ED: Tiny doesn't have any of 1.1 feature strings 13:56:37 ... not sure if this was deliberate (Tiny 1.2 new ones) 13:57:26 CM: In the minutes from 2005 there was suggestion from Scott to change them and issue an errata for 1.1 13:57:45 ... so this issue is now on Mobile 1.1 13:58:12 ... and the decision was they we not going to change the 1.2 feature strings 13:58:34 http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile/Tiny/feature 13:58:36 ED: SVG Tiny 1.1 feature strings there are 3 of them, I think 13:58:39 http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile/Basic/feature 13:59:21 ED: Not sure if there is anything we need to fix for 1.1 Tiny or Full 13:59:35 CM: It does list 1.0 feature strings 14:00:04 ... so it's a bit of a mess 14:00:25 .. I guess we are not going to change anything for Tiny 1.2 either then 14:00:39 ED: What exactly is the issue about? 14:00:52 ... seems to have been changed 14:00:57 ... but not sure 14:02:58 ... I think it could be a problem that there is no hasFeatureMethod Tiny 14:03:49 ... I wouldn't mind seeing a new Issue raised to address the problem of missing hasFeature method 14:04:55 CM: What it says in the original mail doesn't seem to be problem anymore 14:07:09 ScribeNick: anthony 14:07:23 RESOLUTION: We will close the ISSUE-2030 as it does not effect Tiny 1.2 14:08:36 ED: I'll raise a new issue about hasFeature to replace ISSUE-2030 14:10:13 Topic: ISSUE-2031 14:10:26 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2031 14:12:22 CM: [Reviews minutes] 14:12:47 ED: Is this something that would work in Batik? 14:13:00 CM: Not implemented 14:14:33 "When an element is not displayed (i.e., when the 'display' property on that element or one of its ancestors has a value of none), that element must not be the target of pointer events." 14:14:38 -- 13.7 14:14:59 ED: I think this wording is a bit unclear 14:16:50 so, if the element has display=none then I don't expect any user interaction to create events that has that element as its original target 14:17:13 ...but on the other hand I do expect the element (if it's in the document) to still be able to receive events that are dispatched to it 14:17:22 ...with dispatchEvent, or by other means 14:38:56 I agree with ed 100% 14:40:07 so if an element that has focus is made invisible with a display=none, what is expected to happen with the current focus? 14:40:19 is it still focused? 14:42:00 nope, focus is re-evaluated 14:42:14 lots of content does this 14:42:23 a few groups of 'menus' 14:42:28 that's undefined behaviour as I read the spec 14:42:35 enable display only on one 14:42:54 move display through various groups for a different menu 14:43:10 do you have any pointers for where it says the focus must be moved on display=none? 14:43:33 sure, sec.. 14:46:56 http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/interact.html#focus 14:47:11 The SVG User Agent must not navigate to an element which has display='none'. (An element which has display='none' is not focusable.) 14:47:21 The SVG User Agent must allow navigation to elements which are not visible (i.e. which has a 100% transparency or which is hidden by another element). 14:47:38 but it wasn't display=none when it became focused 14:48:13 Yes, Dos not explicitly say if it is changed that a new focus is chosen 14:48:28 But, early on in 1.2 content and implementation, it was implied 14:48:37 by us, but also content tools and developers 14:48:46 and also I beleive other impleemntations 14:50:46 I guess if it is not obvious something has to be added to clarify either way 14:51:45 But I believe the usefulness of content would be reduced - how in content then would you force a change in focus without resorting to ECMAScript? 14:52:16 shepazu has joined #svg 14:55:18 I'll send an html example to the publicwg list 14:57:19 Zakim has left #svg 14:57:36 Zakim has joined #svg 14:58:01 zakim, remind me in 3 hours that you're annoying 14:58:02 ok, shepazu 14:59:56 ok, my example still stands in the original issue - this type of construct is very useful for making UIs with SVG 15:00:46 the thing is though, focus handling is really tricky stuff, and I don't want HTML and SVG to be incompatible because that makes it even more complex 15:01:28 see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008JulSep/0171.html 15:02:03 firefox and opera keeps the first field focused, even after it was display=none:d, and after redisplaying it you can continue to type into it 15:02:23 safari doesn't move the focus anywhere, but doesn't allow typing more characters 15:02:38 (well, the field still has a focusrect in safari) 15:03:29 btw, apologies for the broken html... 15:06:29 DS: If that's not the specified behavior then we should examine the behavior 15:07:01 ... we should probably coordinate with HTML on this 15:10:22 ACTION: Doug to take up ISSUE-2031 with the HTML WG 15:10:22 Created ACTION-2148 - Take up ISSUE-2031 with the HTML WG [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-08-28]. 15:10:51 Ok Erik, I see where you are coming from. This is an interesting problem but please we should not do anyhitng hastly - the whole mobile content that I can see from both us and other relies on focus a given way 15:11:52 to the point where if it were deiced the other way we'd have to be non-compliant or else tick off a lot of people 15:12:44 I am sure this is not just us as well but others 15:13:07 Topic: ISSUE-2032 15:17:31 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2032 15:19:53 heycam has changed the topic to: Scaling Vectors in Germany -- "Trying to add an angle to a length is similar as to add one second to one kg minced meat" 15:34:43 http://schepers.cc/w3c/svg/animationDiff/ 15:44:12 shepazu, http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2008/08/real_sim_city_comes_to_life_in_the_desert-2.html 15:46:05 http://dev.w3.org/SVG/tools/htmldiff/ (fetches htmldiff:s between 1.2TCR and the 1.2Tpublish) 15:54:00 ED: We should go through these one at a time 16:02:37 ... need go through these tomorrow 16:02:52 Zakim, bye 16:02:52 Zakim has left #svg 16:03:08 RRSAgent, make minutes 16:03:08 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-svg-minutes.html anthony 17:58:01 shepazu, you asked to be reminded at this time that you're annoying