IRC log of svg on 2008-08-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

07:26:50 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #svg
07:26:50 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-svg-irc
07:26:52 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
07:26:52 [Zakim]
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07:26:54 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
07:26:54 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
07:26:55 [trackbot]
Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
07:26:55 [trackbot]
Date: 21 August 2008
07:27:08 [heycam]
Meeting: SVG Nuremberg F2F Day 1
07:27:22 [heycam]
Scribe: Cameron
07:27:25 [heycam]
ScribeNick: heycam
07:27:35 [heycam]
Present: Anthony, Cameron, Doug, Erik
07:30:29 [heycam]
Topic: Publication schedule
07:30:47 [heycam]
DS: It's important that we get the 1.2 Tiny spec to Rec by the end of the year
07:31:18 [heycam]
DS: because we have several standards bodies that have deps on this spec that need it to become Rec
07:31:42 [heycam]
DS: it's important for the mobile use
07:32:38 [heycam]
DS: i think it's important that SVG start focussing more on desktop browser uses soon
07:33:16 [heycam]
DS: in order to do this, we need to go to LC by the end of next month at the latest
07:53:13 [heycam]
ED: what do we need to get done for LC by the end of next month?
07:55:01 [heycam]
ED: the changes appendix will need to be updated
07:55:04 [heycam]
CM: a lot of work there
07:55:32 [heycam]
CM: what level of changes should we include there?
07:56:20 [ed]
http://www.w3.org/2007/10/htmldiff
07:59:49 [ed]
http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.2T/publish/changes.html
07:59:51 [ed]
http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.2T/publish/changes.html
08:02:16 [ed]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/products/2
08:04:52 [shepazu]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/track/
08:15:03 [ed]
http://www.w3.org/2007/10/htmldiff?doc1=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2FSVGMobile12%2Fintro.html&doc2=http%3A%2F%2Fdev.w3.org%2FSVG%2Fprofiles%2F1.2T%2Fpublish%2Fintro.html
08:34:03 [shepazu]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/track/issues/1
08:34:08 [shepazu]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/track/issues/15
08:34:14 [shepazu]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/track/issues/258
08:34:20 [shepazu]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/track/issues/268
08:34:28 [shepazu]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/track/issues/274
08:34:36 [shepazu]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/track/issues/333
08:36:11 [shepazu]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/track/actions/1720
08:36:17 [shepazu]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/track/actions/1865
08:36:23 [shepazu]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/track/actions/1932
08:36:29 [shepazu]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/track/actions/1942
08:36:35 [shepazu]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/track/actions/1883
08:36:42 [shepazu]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/track/actions/1440
08:36:48 [shepazu]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/track/actions/1787
08:36:55 [shepazu]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/track/actions/1904
09:29:23 [ed]
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09:38:26 [shepazu]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008JulSep/0131.html
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09:49:03 [heycam]
Topic: Action/issue triage
09:49:39 [heycam]
CM: All of the 1.2T relevant actions/issues have been ported across to the new tracker
09:50:01 [heycam]
CM: one i'm not sure about is andreas' http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/track/actions/1787
09:50:51 [heycam]
DS: we could e-mail him
09:50:56 [heycam]
CM: probably best
09:51:06 [heycam]
CM: it's an action to check to make sure edits have been finished, i think
09:52:22 [heycam]
CM: andreas hasn't replied to kalle yet (which is the second part of that action)
09:56:02 [heycam]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/products/2
10:04:30 [heycam]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2003
10:05:33 [heycam]
CM: action is done, so i'll close the issue
10:06:22 [heycam]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2014
10:07:22 [heycam]
CM: what is the wording in the spec about restricting the spaces?
10:08:24 [ed]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/spec/mobile/1.2/1.2NG/publish/linking.html#IntroFragmentsViews
10:08:27 [Zakim]
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10:09:21 [shepazu]
Zakim, remind me in 8 hours that you take more effort than you should
10:09:21 [Zakim]
ok, shepazu
10:16:32 [anthony]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Jun/0023.html
10:25:47 [anthony]
http://gbiv.com/protocols/uri/rfc/rfc3986.htmlhttp://gbiv.com/protocols/uri/rfc/rfc3986.html
10:38:28 [ed]
Replace "Spaces shall not be allowed in fragment specifications and commas must be used to separate numeric values within an SVG view specification."
10:45:41 [heycam]
ACTION: Anthony to allow spaces in viewbox fragids and to suggest that percent-encoded spaces be used if spaces are used, and to reply to kalle
10:45:41 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2142 - Allow spaces in viewbox fragids and to suggest that percent-encoded spaces be used if spaces are used, and to reply to kalle [on Anthony Grasso - due 2008-08-28].
10:45:51 [heycam]
ACTION-2142?
10:45:51 [trackbot]
ACTION-2142 -- Anthony Grasso to allow spaces in viewbox fragids and to suggest that percent-encoded spaces be used if spaces are used, and to reply to kalle -- due 2008-08-28 -- OPEN
10:45:51 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2142
10:46:54 [heycam]
trackbot, close ISSUE-2014
10:46:54 [trackbot]
Sorry, heycam, I don't understand 'trackbot, close ISSUE-2014'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
10:47:37 [heycam]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2021
10:53:51 [heycam]
We decide to punt ISSUE-2021 to SVG Core 2.0.
10:55:34 [heycam]
ISSUE-2021: ASV returns (0,0,400,400) for the test case.
10:55:34 [trackbot]
ISSUE-2021 Bounding box of <image> subject to aspect-ratio preservation undefined notes added
10:55:41 [heycam]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2022
10:57:20 [heycam]
We decide to move ISSUE-2021 to Core.
11:01:56 [heycam]
CM: i don't think it should be unsupported or in error
11:02:19 [heycam]
CM: it should be valid, and then the processing due to eRR just happens if the resource is 404 or whatever
11:03:00 [heycam]
ED: eRR would mean that the rendering would stop there
11:04:36 [ed]
so if you have an svg with three images in it, the svg has eRR="true" and then the second image is 404
11:05:03 [ed]
then no image would be visible because of eRR
11:05:42 [ed]
it's not in error, and the IRI isn't unsupported
11:05:52 [ed]
it's just an effect of eRR handling
11:16:15 [heycam]
DS: unsupported values should be shown in the error console
11:16:42 [heycam]
DS: we can have a suggestion in the spec to say that if the UA has some notion of an error console or log, that it reports unsupported values and how they were remedied (the lacuna value used, etc.)
11:17:30 [heycam]
ACTION: Doug to add the suggestion to report unsupported values in the error console
11:17:30 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2143 - Add the suggestion to report unsupported values in the error console [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-08-28].
11:20:19 [heycam]
DS: in Linking it says "a circular references represents an error", i don't like this
11:26:04 [heycam]
we decide to leave that to be an error
11:30:00 [ed]
http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.2T/publish/struct.html#ExternalResourcesRequiredAttribute
11:30:08 [ed]
Indicates that resources external to the current document are required. If an external resource is not available (for example the request for the required resource times out), progressive rendering is suspended, the load event is not fired for the element, and the document goes into an error state (see Error processing). The document remains in an error state until all required resources become available.
11:30:27 [ed]
so...we should sync the wording in linking with this, saying "error state" but not "in error"
11:31:30 [aemmons]
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restarting to recover bridge connection
12:27:20 [shepazu]
hi, aemmons!!
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12:29:36 [ed]
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12:41:43 [ed]
From linking: "When attribute externalResourcesRequired has been set to true on the referencing element or one of its ancestors, then an unresolved external IRI reference (i.e., a resource that cannot be located) shall represent an error (see Error processing)."
13:04:13 [heycam]
[We discuss the newly introduced fallback behaviour in the Linking chapter, and decide it's too much of a change to introduce this late, and we'll move it to Core.]
13:11:42 [heycam]
We need an action to make the following changes in this section:
13:11:47 [heycam]
- move the first dot point about circular IRI references to a paragraph of its own (so it doesn't just apply to invalid IRI references, but any circular references
13:18:51 [ed]
Replace:
13:18:52 [ed]
When attribute externalResourcesRequired has been set to true on the referencing element or one of its ancestors, then an unresolved external IRI reference (i.e., a resource that cannot be located) shall represent an error (see Error processing).
13:18:52 [ed]
With:
13:18:52 [ed]
Note that when the attribute externalResourcesRequired has been set to true on the referencing element or one of its ancestors, then an unresolved external IRI reference (i.e., a resource that cannot be located) will result in special handling, see [definition of eRR].
13:21:15 [heycam]
- Add an "invalid IRI reference" definition to intro.html
13:21:34 [heycam]
- Check that processing for invalid IRI references is defined for each attribute that can have an IRI reference
13:21:59 [heycam]
- Move the third bullet point to Core.
13:23:00 [heycam]
ACTION: Cameron to rework the invalid IRI reference section (14.1.4) as in the minutes here
13:23:00 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2144 - Rework the invalid IRI reference section (14.1.4) as in the minutes here [on Cameron McCormack - due 2008-08-28].
13:24:49 [heycam]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2027
13:27:13 [heycam]
ED: there were some files that referenced from <animation> elements something that had overflow
13:27:40 [heycam]
ED: i recall fixing some of those or all of those cases i found so that they contained the graphics within their area, so clipping wasn't an issue
13:28:03 [heycam]
AG: and when i investigated julien's email, i found that opera and bitflash did the same thing and produced the reference image we had
13:28:11 [heycam]
AG: so i suspect julien looked at the old version of the test suite
13:29:41 [ed]
file://localhost/Users/ed2/w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.2T/publish/coords.html#EstablishingANewViewport
13:29:55 [heycam]
ACTION: Anthony to reply to Julien to say that the tests have been fixed in the new release and that there's something in the spec that warns against this clipping issue (in that URL above)
13:29:55 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2145 - Reply to Julien to say that the tests have been fixed in the new release and that there's something in the spec that warns against this clipping issue (in that URL above) [on Anthony Grasso - due 2008-08-28].
13:46:34 [heycam]
ACTION: Cameron to take a quick look at 16.2.18 to see how to make it slightly better
13:46:34 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2146 - Take a quick look at 16.2.18 to see how to make it slightly better [on Cameron McCormack - due 2008-08-28].
13:47:37 [heycam]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2029
13:50:52 [anthony]
scribe: anthony
13:51:03 [anthony]
ED: Looks like everyone is in agreement to allow spaces
13:51:38 [anthony]
ACTION: Erik to change stroke-dasharray to allow space separated values
13:51:38 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2147 - Change stroke-dasharray to allow space separated values [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-08-28].
13:52:35 [anthony]
Topic: ISSUE-2030
13:53:00 [anthony]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2030
13:53:52 [anthony]
ED: Dino said he had an action to clean up feature string
13:54:16 [anthony]
... Chris says that Mobile 1.1 had incorrect feature strings
13:54:27 [anthony]
... compared to 1.1 Full
13:54:39 [anthony]
... but does Tiny 1.2 have new feature strings?
13:54:43 [anthony]
CM: Dunno
13:55:51 [anthony]
... so in Tiny 1.2 does it have any of the 1.1?
13:56:21 [anthony]
ED: Tiny doesn't have any of 1.1 feature strings
13:56:37 [anthony]
... not sure if this was deliberate (Tiny 1.2 new ones)
13:57:26 [anthony]
CM: In the minutes from 2005 there was suggestion from Scott to change them and issue an errata for 1.1
13:57:45 [anthony]
... so this issue is now on Mobile 1.1
13:58:12 [anthony]
... and the decision was they we not going to change the 1.2 feature strings
13:58:34 [ed]
http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile/Tiny/feature
13:58:36 [anthony]
ED: SVG Tiny 1.1 feature strings there are 3 of them, I think
13:58:39 [ed]
http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile/Basic/feature
13:59:21 [anthony]
ED: Not sure if there is anything we need to fix for 1.1 Tiny or Full
13:59:35 [anthony]
CM: It does list 1.0 feature strings
14:00:04 [anthony]
... so it's a bit of a mess
14:00:25 [anthony]
.. I guess we are not going to change anything for Tiny 1.2 either then
14:00:39 [anthony]
ED: What exactly is the issue about?
14:00:52 [anthony]
... seems to have been changed
14:00:57 [anthony]
... but not sure
14:02:58 [anthony]
... I think it could be a problem that there is no hasFeatureMethod Tiny
14:03:49 [anthony]
... I wouldn't mind seeing a new Issue raised to address the problem of missing hasFeature method
14:04:55 [anthony]
CM: What it says in the original mail doesn't seem to be problem anymore
14:07:09 [heycam]
ScribeNick: anthony
14:07:23 [anthony]
RESOLUTION: We will close the ISSUE-2030 as it does not effect Tiny 1.2
14:08:36 [anthony]
ED: I'll raise a new issue about hasFeature to replace ISSUE-2030
14:10:13 [anthony]
Topic: ISSUE-2031
14:10:26 [anthony]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2031
14:12:22 [anthony]
CM: [Reviews minutes]
14:12:47 [anthony]
ED: Is this something that would work in Batik?
14:13:00 [anthony]
CM: Not implemented
14:14:33 [heycam]
"When an element is not displayed (i.e., when the 'display' property on that element or one of its ancestors has a value of none), that element must not be the target of pointer events."
14:14:38 [heycam]
-- 13.7
14:14:59 [anthony]
ED: I think this wording is a bit unclear
14:16:50 [ed]
so, if the element has display=none then I don't expect any user interaction to create events that has that element as its original target
14:17:13 [ed]
...but on the other hand I do expect the element (if it's in the document) to still be able to receive events that are dispatched to it
14:17:22 [ed]
...with dispatchEvent, or by other means
14:38:56 [aemmons]
I agree with ed 100%
14:40:07 [ed]
so if an element that has focus is made invisible with a display=none, what is expected to happen with the current focus?
14:40:19 [ed]
is it still focused?
14:42:00 [aemmons]
nope, focus is re-evaluated
14:42:14 [aemmons]
lots of content does this
14:42:23 [aemmons]
a few groups of 'menus'
14:42:28 [ed]
that's undefined behaviour as I read the spec
14:42:35 [aemmons]
enable display only on one
14:42:54 [aemmons]
move display through various groups for a different menu
14:43:10 [ed]
do you have any pointers for where it says the focus must be moved on display=none?
14:43:33 [aemmons]
sure, sec..
14:46:56 [aemmons]
http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/interact.html#focus
14:47:11 [aemmons]
The SVG User Agent must not navigate to an element which has display='none'. (An element which has display='none' is not focusable.)
14:47:21 [aemmons]
The SVG User Agent must allow navigation to elements which are not visible (i.e. which has a 100% transparency or which is hidden by another element).
14:47:38 [ed]
but it wasn't display=none when it became focused
14:48:13 [aemmons]
Yes, Dos not explicitly say if it is changed that a new focus is chosen
14:48:28 [aemmons]
But, early on in 1.2 content and implementation, it was implied
14:48:37 [aemmons]
by us, but also content tools and developers
14:48:46 [aemmons]
and also I beleive other impleemntations
14:50:46 [aemmons]
I guess if it is not obvious something has to be added to clarify either way
14:51:45 [aemmons]
But I believe the usefulness of content would be reduced - how in content then would you force a change in focus without resorting to ECMAScript?
14:52:16 [shepazu]
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14:55:18 [ed]
I'll send an html example to the publicwg list
14:57:19 [Zakim]
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14:57:36 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #svg
14:58:01 [shepazu]
zakim, remind me in 3 hours that you're annoying
14:58:02 [Zakim]
ok, shepazu
14:59:56 [aemmons]
ok, my example still stands in the original issue - this type of construct is very useful for making UIs with SVG
15:00:46 [ed]
the thing is though, focus handling is really tricky stuff, and I don't want HTML and SVG to be incompatible because that makes it even more complex
15:01:28 [ed]
see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008JulSep/0171.html
15:02:03 [ed]
firefox and opera keeps the first field focused, even after it was display=none:d, and after redisplaying it you can continue to type into it
15:02:23 [ed]
safari doesn't move the focus anywhere, but doesn't allow typing more characters
15:02:38 [ed]
(well, the field still has a focusrect in safari)
15:03:29 [ed]
btw, apologies for the broken html...
15:06:29 [anthony]
DS: If that's not the specified behavior then we should examine the behavior
15:07:01 [anthony]
... we should probably coordinate with HTML on this
15:10:22 [anthony]
ACTION: Doug to take up ISSUE-2031 with the HTML WG
15:10:22 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2148 - Take up ISSUE-2031 with the HTML WG [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-08-28].
15:10:51 [aemmons]
Ok Erik, I see where you are coming from. This is an interesting problem but please we should not do anyhitng hastly - the whole mobile content that I can see from both us and other relies on focus a given way
15:11:52 [aemmons]
to the point where if it were deiced the other way we'd have to be non-compliant or else tick off a lot of people
15:12:44 [aemmons]
I am sure this is not just us as well but others
15:13:07 [anthony]
Topic: ISSUE-2032
15:17:31 [anthony]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2032
15:19:53 [heycam]
heycam has changed the topic to: Scaling Vectors in Germany -- "Trying to add an angle to a length is similar as to add one second to one kg minced meat"
15:34:43 [shepazu]
http://schepers.cc/w3c/svg/animationDiff/
15:44:12 [heycam]
shepazu, http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2008/08/real_sim_city_comes_to_life_in_the_desert-2.html
15:46:05 [ed]
http://dev.w3.org/SVG/tools/htmldiff/ (fetches htmldiff:s between 1.2TCR and the 1.2Tpublish)
15:54:00 [anthony]
ED: We should go through these one at a time
16:02:37 [anthony]
... need go through these tomorrow
16:02:52 [anthony]
Zakim, bye
16:02:52 [Zakim]
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16:03:08 [anthony]
RRSAgent, make minutes
16:03:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-svg-minutes.html anthony
17:58:01 [Zakim]
shepazu, you asked to be reminded at this time that you're annoying