IRC log of html-wg on 2008-08-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:56:14 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #html-wg
15:56:14 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-html-wg-irc
15:56:16 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs public
15:56:19 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #html-wg
15:56:19 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be HTML
15:56:19 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()12:00PM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
15:56:19 [trackbot]: Meeting: HTML Issue Tracking Teleconference
15:56:27 [MikeSmith]: Chair: MikeSmith
15:57:15 [oedipus]: oedipus has joined #html-wg
15:57:23 [anne]: Apologies, I'm in a CSS WG meeting and forgot to e-mail.
15:57:31 [DanC]: noted, anne
15:57:56 [anne]: I'm available for questions though, as we're discussing font matching and I'm not really knowledgeable in that :)
15:58:02 [anne]: (having said that, it's interesting)
15:59:39 [robburns]: robburns has joined #html-wg
16:00:09 [MikeSmith]: Zakim, call Mike
16:00:09 [Zakim]: ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
16:00:10 [anne]: I'm afraid the agenda was a) really late and b) no longer reflecting reality
16:00:10 [Zakim]: HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
16:00:11 [Zakim]: +Mike
16:00:21 [anne]: (the CSS WG F2F agenda that is)
16:00:38 [shepazu]: the SVG WG wants to HTML and SVG to align on an issue of focused elements when they are removed from the tree... could I bring this up here, or what?
16:00:46 [MikeSmith]: Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:00:46 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Mike
16:01:05 [Zakim]: + +49.251.280.aaaa
16:01:16 [Julian]: Zakim, +49.251.280.aaaa is me
16:01:16 [Zakim]: +Julian; got it
16:01:17 [anne]: DanC, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2008JulSep/0133.html
16:01:21 [Zakim]: +Gregory_Rosmaita
16:01:50 [anne]: DanC, so the last point of today does align with what we're discussing at this point, that's good :)
16:02:06 [oedipus]: scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
16:02:09 [anne]: DanC, though Friday item 1 has been discussed yesterday
16:02:15 [oedipus]: scribeNick: oedipus
16:02:30 [oedipus]: rrsagent, make logs world-visible
16:02:57 [Zakim]: +??P14
16:02:58 [Zakim]: -??P14
16:03:18 [MikeSmith]: shepazu: yeah, OK
16:03:23 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
16:03:24 [Laura]: Laura has joined #html-wg
16:03:25 [MikeSmith]: (about your question)
16:03:37 [Zakim]: +DanC
16:03:47 [robburns]: robburns
16:04:19 [MikeSmith]: Zakim, who's on the call?
16:04:19 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Mike, Julian, Gregory_Rosmaita, [IPcaller], DanC
16:04:21 [Zakim]: +??P0
16:04:26 [robburns]: yes, I'm on the phone listening
16:04:39 [ChrisWilson]: ChrisWilson has joined #html-wg
16:04:40 [smedero]: If anyone needs help with the issue tracking system, you can ping me on IRC. I can't make the call though... I've got to deal with my relator via phone at this time.
16:04:40 [robburns]: Zakim, IPcaller is robburns
16:04:40 [Zakim]: +robburns; got it
16:05:03 [shepazu]: Zakim, ??P0 is me
16:05:03 [Zakim]: +shepazu; got it
16:05:19 [oedipus]: Agenda: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda
16:06:02 [oedipus]: TOPIC: Agenda Addenda
16:06:11 [oedipus]: DS: how to address SVG in HTML5
16:06:24 [Zakim]: + +1.218.349.aabb
16:06:31 [shepazu]: s/SVG in HTML5/focus issues/
16:06:36 [oedipus]: MS: issue is - focused elements when removed from tree
16:06:43 [DanC]: Zakim, aabb is Laura
16:06:43 [Zakim]: +Laura; got it
16:06:59 [oedipus]: MS: other agenda addenda?
16:07:00 [ed]: ed has joined #html-wg
16:07:07 [oedipus]: DC: you Mike?
16:07:13 [Julian]: q+
16:07:21 [oedipus]: MS: goals for call - end early
16:07:28 [oedipus]: no objections logged
16:07:36 [MikeSmith]: ack Julian
16:08:00 [oedipus]: JR: finished discussing how to procede with open issues in tracker - have nagging feeling not proceding
16:08:21 [oedipus]: MS: talked about issue of making HTML5 compliant with XSLT output = HTML
16:08:32 [oedipus]: MS: give myself action on that
16:08:53 [DanC]: Topic: ISSUE-54 html5-from-xslt
16:08:53 [Laura]: regrets+ Joshue
16:09:05 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
16:09:10 [ChrisWilson]: zakim, microsoft is me
16:09:10 [Zakim]: +ChrisWilson; got it
16:09:30 [MikeSmith]: ACTION: Michael(tm) to raise on the list for discussion the issue of XSLT output=html (non)compliance in HTML5
16:09:31 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-74 - Raise on the list for discussion the issue of XSLT output=html (non)compliance in HTML5 [on Michael(tm) Smith - due 2008-08-28].
16:09:38 [Julian]: thanks
16:09:52 [oedipus]: rrsagent, make minutes
16:09:52 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
16:09:58 [Zakim]: +??P11
16:10:12 [hsivonen]: Zakim, +??P11 is hsivonen
16:10:12 [Zakim]: sorry, hsivonen, I do not recognize a party named '+??P11'
16:10:19 [oedipus]: MS: issues hixie said are making changes to spec - what to do next - which move ahead with in discussion leading to resolution
16:10:19 [DanC]: (I thought we were using "pending review" for the ones where the editor had considered all arguments.)
16:10:30 [shepazu]: Zakim, ??P11 is hsivonen
16:10:30 [Zakim]: +hsivonen; got it
16:10:43 [ChrisWilson]: zakim, who is talking?
16:10:54 [Zakim]: ChrisWilson, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: hsivonen (19%), Mike (92%)
16:11:25 [oedipus]: MS: want to get feedback from henriS - issue raised b/c no way to output HTML5 doctagged document from XSLT output
16:11:46 [Julian]: q+
16:11:53 [MikeSmith]: ack Julian
16:11:55 [oedipus]: MS: HenriS pointed out least of problems with HTML output from XSLT engines; list of problems; having discussion about his list of problems on list
16:12:35 [oedipus]: JR: HenriS has good list but XSLT 1.0 doesn't have any problems writing average HTML docs except for doctypes - interesting for future of XSLT development, but distraction from core issue
16:12:39 [DanC]: (I'm inclined to postpone ISSUE-54 html5-from-xslt , pending a new output mode for XSLT)
16:12:42 [hsivonen]: q+ to say that the namespace thing is more core
16:12:46 [oedipus]: DanC: seems like core issue to me - what is issue then?
16:13:02 [oedipus]: MS: very specifically about cannot generate doctype of HTML5 with public identifier
16:13:16 [oedipus]: DanC: working group issue - changed to include things henri mentioned in request
16:13:54 [MikeSmith]: ack hsivonen
16:13:54 [Zakim]: hsivonen, you wanted to say that the namespace thing is more core
16:13:59 [oedipus]: MS: but julian said, a lot of other edge cases - doctype is low hanging fruit - one that is most important - could optionally put public/system identifier on HTML5 doctype - think would be ok, but want others' opinions
16:14:36 [Julian]: q+
16:14:39 [oedipus]: HS: new empty elements and namespaces; empty element issue - want to use event source, you can - those "edge cases" are what are new in HTML5 - if not using new features of HTML5, use HTML4
16:14:49 [ChrisWilson]: q+ to say "I think we should have a public identifier, because as I've said before having some version ID is good programming practice"
16:15:09 [shepazu]: HTML5 is meant to replace HTML4, no?
16:15:13 [DanC]: (hmm... isn't the HTML 5 spec intended to obsolete HTML 4? why should anybody bother with HTML 4? I guess I better double-check...)
16:15:56 [anne]: (I don't think it does anything with HTML4 at all.)
16:16:11 [MikeSmith]: q?
16:16:13 [oedipus]: HS: other problem - namespace - old HTML needs custom XSLT because in no namespace - would be endoresement of XSLT not capable of outputting HTML - not evolvable, so if add SVG or MathML later, have code base based on a hack without right namespace - tweaking to allow using old HTML output mode for HTML5 doctype gives false sense of security and encourages them to do wrong thing rather than creating tree for XSLT to output HMTL5
16:16:13 [anne]: (It effectively obsoletes it as far as user agents are concerned though.)
16:16:22 [oedipus]: MS: excellent points
16:16:26 [MikeSmith]: q+ to respond to hsivonen
16:16:30 [MikeSmith]: ack Julian
16:17:55 [DanC]: (olivier has got Henri's validator code glued into the w3c validation service code, and there's an interesting question of when to use which code; seems to me the html5 validator should be invoked on docs with the html4 doctype too, since that's how browsers treat them. I'm not sure.)
16:18:00 [oedipus]: JR: 2 things: plenty of things in HTML5 one would want to try (new navigation elements), but no way to do except through hack; second agreee that drawback of XSLT HTML output mode but been copied for years - claiming critical now is a distraction; XHTML generating stylesheet so can mechanically write XSLT to output what you need; don't think these are reasons not to discuss main issue for which ticket opened
16:18:02 [MikeSmith]: ack ChrisWilson
16:18:02 [Zakim]: ChrisWilson, you wanted to say "I think we should have a public identifier, because as I've said before having some version ID is good programming practice"
16:18:23 [oedipus]: CW: having public identifier good practice anyway, would help here as well
16:18:30 [oedipus]: ack MikeSmith
16:18:30 [Zakim]: MikeSmith, you wanted to respond to hsivonen
16:18:36 [DanC]: (public identifier when there's no corresponding public text? wft?)
16:18:41 [oedipus]: MS: touches on versioning
16:18:49 [oedipus]: CW: still have unresolved floating issue on versioning
16:19:16 [DanC]: "This specification represents a new version of HTML4" -- http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#relationship . hm.
16:19:33 [hsivonen]: q+ to say that sticking to the old HTML output mode is unintuitive unless you know XSLT very well
16:19:42 [Julian]: q+
16:20:21 [oedipus]: MS: henri's point - don't want to encourage users to rely on current output HTML too much; conceeding on this will lead users to expect we do more; what we can do to deal with no way to make current XSLT engines to recognize new empty elements, can't fix from HTML side; will need to be better HTML output method than what exist now - what to do in meantime; there are people (me included) who want to generate HTML5 compliant output from XSLT without resort to
16:20:39 [DanC]: (there's not much urgency to this issue, is there? I'd rather read hsivonen's and julian's arguments in email. I suggest the chair quit arguing a position and get back to chairing ;-)
16:20:47 [oedipus]: MS: if can address most of user needs by adding optional public identifier to doctype, should discuss - are there any negative side-effects
16:20:47 [hsivonen]: q-
16:21:03 [oedipus]: MS: one thing talked about with ARIA is not meant to be permenant solution
16:21:03 [hsivonen]: (I'm OK to taking this to email)
16:21:07 [MikeSmith]: ack Julian
16:21:47 [DanC]: (new empty elements... anybody got an example handy?)
16:22:03 [oedipus]: JR: one last thing: if argument is that HTML5 introduces new empty elements, and producers asusme new elements/unknown elements are empty, should we be adding empty elements to HTML5 - XSLT made that assumption, other producers may have problems as well
16:22:07 [hsivonen]: DanC, <eventsource>, <source>
16:22:35 [oedipus]: MS: speaking personally, do not want to be constrained in developing ML by bad design decisions made in past
16:22:40 [oedipus]: DanC: move along?
16:22:52 [Julian]: ok, let's move to email
16:22:52 [oedipus]: MS: no resolution except continue email discussion
16:23:41 [shepazu]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008JulSep/0171.html
16:23:48 [oedipus]: MS: explanation of problem case?
16:24:28 [anne]: hsivonen, DanC, + <command>
16:24:34 [oedipus]: DS: no defined behavior in HTML user agents, when element has focused and that element is removed from tree what happens? is an onBlur onFocus event? does it regain focus if comes back into tree? what if hidden via CSS and CSS selectors
16:25:01 [oedipus]: DS: email pointer to test case - add onBlur to onClick all HTML UAs treat differently
16:25:21 [MikeSmith]: q?
16:25:36 [oedipus]: DS: trying to resolve behavior in SVG and want to port to HTML5 - if element invisible via CSS or taken out of tree, should be removed and throw an unfocused event
16:25:46 [oedipus]: DS: want alignment between HTML5 and SVG
16:25:58 [MikeSmith]: anne: comments on the above from shepazu ?
16:26:00 [hsivonen]: I can only comment that I can't comment before seeing test cases run in 4 browsers
16:26:01 [anne]: hsivonen, DanC, + <embed> (not really new)
16:26:12 [oedipus]: DS: other question - is this right forum
16:26:17 [oedipus]: DS = Doug Schepers
16:26:21 [gDashiva]: gDashiva has joined #html-wg
16:26:23 [oedipus]: MS: can raise as issue if want
16:26:31 [oedipus]: DS: yes
16:26:39 [oedipus]: MS: please type in text for issue
16:26:44 [MikeSmith]: trackbot, status?
16:26:47 [oedipus]: MS: i will create it
16:26:51 [anne]: MikeSmith, no, I'm not really sure I understand
16:27:00 [shepazu]: Focus change event when elements are removed from the rendering tree
16:27:02 [Zakim]: -robburns
16:27:03 [anne]: MikeSmith, user agents should probably be tested to get the answer
16:27:15 [shepazu]: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/track/issues/258
16:27:16 [oedipus]: DanC: is this urgent? couldn't be handled better by reading and commenting
16:27:27 [oedipus]: DS: trying to resolve in timely manner - will send email to the list
16:27:39 [hsivonen]: anne, the question is: if the element with focus is a) removed from DOM or b) becomes display:none, should blur event fire? where should focus go?
16:27:46 [oedipus]: MS: best way to procede is testing according to anne and henri's IRC comments
16:27:56 [Zakim]: +??P3
16:27:59 [Zakim]: -shepazu
16:27:59 [DanC]: (ah... looks like hsivonen groks)
16:28:05 [anne]: hsivonen, focus goes to <body> or the Document object iirc in case nothing else is focused
16:28:06 [robburns]: Zakim, ??P3 is me
16:28:06 [Zakim]: +robburns; got it
16:28:15 [anne]: hsivonen, display:none shouldn't affect anything
16:28:29 [oedipus]: TOPIC: New Agenda Items or Agenda Tracking?
16:28:30 [shepazu]: note that HTML UAs all do something a little different
16:28:34 [anne]: hsivonen, I don't think blur fires on removal, but I'm not sure
16:28:39 [oedipus]: TOPIC: Issue Review
16:28:47 [shepazu]: anne: why shouldn't it?
16:28:49 [oedipus]: MS: overdue action item review
16:29:05 [oedipus]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda
16:29:08 [anne]: shepazu, I'm not saying that
16:29:15 [oedipus]: MS: one overdue on me
16:29:24 [DanC]: action-34?
16:29:24 [trackbot]: ACTION-34 -- Lachlan Hunt to prepare "Web Developer's Guide to HTML5" for publication in some way, as discussed on 2007-11-28 phone conference -- due 2008-08-14 -- OPEN
16:29:24 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/34
16:29:31 [oedipus]: MS: lachy working on web dev guide - need status report - keep action open
16:29:33 [anne]: shepazu, most of that is simply based on existing impl as there's likely content depending on it
16:29:41 [oedipus]: MS: nothing new to say about action 54, though
16:29:47 [oedipus]: CW: thread with PFWG pretty active
16:29:47 [DanC]: action-54?
16:29:47 [trackbot]: ACTION-54 -- Chris Wilson to ask PF WG to look at drafted text for HTML 5 spec to require producers/authors to include @alt on img elements -- due 2008-08-20 -- OPEN
16:29:47 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/54
16:29:53 [Laura]: We are still waiting for a reply from the PFWG for Action Item 54 regarding our March and April requests:
16:29:53 [Laura]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Apr/0408.html
16:29:53 [Laura]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Mar/0234.html
16:29:54 [oedipus]: MS: can we close action?
16:29:59 [Laura]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2008Aug/0024.html
16:30:03 [hsivonen]: anne, shepazu said browsers aren't consistent here
16:30:05 [Laura]: Action 54's Second Draft is dependent on PF's response. Request for an Action Item 54 time extension until there is a response from the PFWG.
16:30:05 [trackbot]: Sorry, couldn't find user - 54's
16:30:24 [oedipus]: CW: want to keep and redeadline to next week; want date from PF as to when action will be "shipped"
16:30:29 [MikeSmith]: action-54?
16:30:30 [trackbot]: ACTION-54 -- Chris Wilson to ask PF WG to look at drafted text for HTML 5 spec to require producers/authors to include @alt on img elements -- due 2008-08-29 -- OPEN
16:30:30 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/54
16:30:39 [Laura]: I emailed Al for an update:
16:30:39 [Laura]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2008Aug/0024.html
16:30:39 [oedipus]: MS: moved week later
16:30:46 [Laura]: Action 54's Second Draft is dependent on PF's response. Request for an Action Item 54 time extension until there is a response from the PFWG.
16:30:46 [trackbot]: Sorry, couldn't find user - 54's
16:30:48 [anne]: hsivonen, ok
16:30:53 [oedipus]: DanC: pre-empts yesterday's plan
16:31:07 [Laura]: Karl's proposal:
16:31:07 [Laura]: "All img elements must have the alt content attribute set. The accessibility requirements on the possible values of the alt attributes are defined by WCAG 2.0 and not HTML 5."
16:31:07 [Laura]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/0437.html
16:31:07 [Laura]: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/Action54AltAttributeThirdDraft
16:31:16 [MikeSmith]: action-66?
16:31:16 [trackbot]: ACTION-66 -- Chris Wilson to joshue to collate information on what spec status is with respect to table@summary, research background on rationale for retaining table@summary as a valid attribute -- due 2008-08-20 -- OPEN
16:31:16 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/66
16:31:21 [oedipus]: MS: Chris, action 66?
16:31:28 [oedipus]: CW: related - combine these 2 into one
16:31:34 [Laura]: We have collated info on the Action 32. Deliverable is at:
16:31:34 [Laura]: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/SummaryForTABLE
16:31:40 [oedipus]: CW: believe feedback coming at same time
16:31:42 [Laura]: Advice From PFWG:
16:31:42 [Laura]: "1. @summary should stay. 2. It provides a needed service. 3. element content providing this info, *if linked by markup to the table* offers growth to even better practice. 4. Don't have the linking markup yet; is a developmental item. 5. evolution not revolution says: keep @summary at least until alternatives are deployed and stable."
16:31:42 [Laura]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/0213.html
16:31:45 [oedipus]: DanC: diff issues
16:31:51 [oedipus]: Laura: different issues
16:31:56 [Laura]: Request that @summary be reinstated in the spec. It is needed.
16:32:02 [Laura]: Sample text from HTML 4:
16:32:02 [Laura]: "summary = text [CS]
16:32:03 [Laura]: This attribute provides a summary of the table's purpose and structure for user agents rendering to non-visual media such as speech and Braille.…Make the table summary available to the user. Authors should provide a summary of a table's content and structure so that people using non-visual user agents may better understand it..." Source:
16:32:03 [Laura]: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/tables.html#adef-summary
16:32:04 [oedipus]: CW: actions on me are fine to combine
16:32:09 [DanC]: action-66?
16:32:09 [trackbot]: ACTION-66 -- Joshue O Connor to joshue to collate information on what spec status is with respect to table@summary, research background on rationale for retaining table@summary as a valid attribute -- due 2008-08-29 -- OPEN
16:32:09 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/66
16:32:10 [Laura]: @summary may seem irrelevant or redundant to those with good eyesight because they have access to content relationships at a glance. However, for users with visual impairments it is often vital for comprehension. It is often the difference between "seeing" or "not seeing" the table as a whole.
16:32:11 [oedipus]: DanC: josh now on tracker team
16:32:16 [oedipus]: MS: reassign 66 to josh
16:32:19 [oedipus]: DanC: done
16:32:33 [MikeSmith]: action-72?
16:32:33 [trackbot]: ACTION-72 -- Joshue O Connor to rewrite spec to reinstate id/headers AND their functionality by specifically stating that headers are allowed to reference a td. Reword the current definition of the headers attribute so that each of the space separated tokens must have the value of the ID value of a th or td element. -- due 2008-08-21 -- OPEN
16:32:33 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/72
16:32:42 [oedipus]: MS: action 72 - due next week/this week (tomorrow)
16:32:51 [oedipus]: DanC: 21st august today
16:32:54 [Laura]: Deliverable for Action 72:
16:32:54 [Laura]: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/Action72Headers
16:32:57 [oedipus]: Laura: deliverable for that ready
16:33:00 [Laura]: Request that the definition of the headers attribute in the spec be extended to allow it to reference a td. This would make it possible for complex data tables to be marked up accessibly.
16:33:06 [Laura]: The headers/id markup is functional and works today. Results of some recent testing:
16:33:07 [Laura]: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/TableHeadersTestingBug5822
16:33:07 [Laura]: It needs to be grandfathered into the spec.
16:33:13 [Laura]: This issue's history from May 2007 to present:
16:33:13 [Laura]: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/IssueTableHeaders
16:33:14 [oedipus]: Laura: request that be changed
16:33:22 [oedipus]: DanC: has anyone notified public-html
16:33:26 [oedipus]: Laura: no, but can
16:33:34 [Laura]: The current wording for the headers attribute only allows the space separated token values to reference the id attribute of a header cell(th). It says:
16:33:34 [Laura]: "The headers attribute, if specified, must contain a string consisting of an unordered set of unique space-separated tokens, each of which must have the value of an ID of a th element..."
16:33:35 [Laura]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#headers
16:33:45 [oedipus]: DanC: action complete to my satisfaction
16:33:48 [Laura]: This is currently implemented in such a way that complex tables cannot be created using the headers attribute. It essentially makes the headers attribute that has been included on tds pointless. The headers attribute needs to be able to reference the id of a td.
16:33:50 [oedipus]: MS: going to close out then
16:34:01 [oedipus]: Laura: not closed - rewrote, but how to get into spec
16:34:05 [robburns]: Laura, good question
16:34:06 [oedipus]: DanC: action to draft
16:34:13 [oedipus]: Laura: need new action to get into text
16:34:16 [MikeSmith]: issue-57?
16:34:16 [trackbot]: ISSUE-57 -- @headers -- OPEN
16:34:16 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/57
16:34:20 [oedipus]: DanC: yes, but first needs discussion
16:34:29 [oedipus]: MS: close this one
16:34:32 [robburns]: that is how do issues resolved through the WG process effect the draft?
16:34:42 [oedipus]: Laura: need another action item to get into draft - survey?
16:34:56 [oedipus]: MS: chairs will have discussion and make decision on how to put question to group
16:35:13 [oedipus]: Laura: will you let us know that outcome - want not just to discuss but have movement on it
16:35:19 [oedipus]: Laura: already drafted
16:35:34 [oedipus]: MS: should open discussion about @headers
16:35:38 [MikeSmith]: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/Action72Headers
16:35:42 [oedipus]: MS: look at what josh has drafted
16:36:00 [Laura]: The headers/id markup is functional and works today. Results of some recent testing:
16:36:00 [Laura]: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/TableHeadersTestingBug5822
16:36:00 [Laura]: It needs to be grandfathered into the spec.
16:36:15 [oedipus]: Laura: table until next week when josh can be here
16:36:18 [oedipus]: DanC: alright
16:36:26 [oedipus]: MS: laura could you summarize
16:36:34 [oedipus]: Laura: rather let josh to it next week
16:36:39 [DanC]: action-72?
16:36:39 [trackbot]: ACTION-72 -- Joshue O Connor to rewrite spec to reinstate id/headers AND their functionality by specifically stating that headers are allowed to reference a td. Reword the current definition of the headers attribute so that each of the space separated tokens must have the value of the ID value of a th or td element. -- due 2008-08-21 -- OPEN
16:36:39 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/72
16:36:40 [oedipus]: DanC: mark action pending review
16:36:48 [oedipus]: TOPIC: Raised Issues
16:36:52 [oedipus]: MS; nothing there
16:37:08 [DanC]: action-72?
16:37:09 [trackbot]: ACTION-72 -- Joshue O Connor to rewrite spec to reinstate id/headers AND their functionality by specifically stating that headers are allowed to reference a td. Reword the current definition of the headers attribute so that each of the space separated tokens must have the value of the ID value of a th or td element. -- due 2008-08-21 -- PENDINGREVIEW
16:37:09 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/72
16:37:09 [oedipus]: TOPIC: Pending Review Issues
16:37:14 [MikeSmith]: issue-20?
16:37:14 [trackbot]: ISSUE-20 -- Improvements to the table-headers algorithm in the HTML 5 spec -- RAISED
16:37:14 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/20
16:37:28 [oedipus]: MS: Issue-20 - been pending review for a while - what are we waiting on?
16:37:55 [oedipus]: DanC: isn't that connected to action 72?
16:38:11 [hsivonen]: It's not at all clear, though, that action 72 is the best solution to issue 20
16:38:13 [oedipus]: DanC: @headers and headers element issues?
16:38:34 [oedipus]: DanC: 57 duplicates 20 - 20 is table headers thing josh drafted on
16:38:46 [oedipus]: MS: please annotate issue 57 then
16:39:04 [oedipus]: MS: nothing in notes about closing out; hixie wrote in march "change to spec"
16:39:12 [robburns]: issue-20 deals with the standard table-headers algorithm without attributes, while issue-57 refers to defects in the current draft regarding the headers attribute
16:40:03 [hsivonen]: robburns, well if the attributeless algorithm can be amended to deal with the relevant cases, the attribute wouldn't be needed
16:40:05 [oedipus]: DanC: pending review means editor looked and thinks he has correct answer discussion done as far as he is concerned; now WG here to discuss if happy with editor's choice, josh wasn't satisfied, drafted new verbiage and now need to discuss what to do with it -
16:40:19 [hsivonen]: robburns, so action 72 pre-supposes the solution
16:40:20 [DanC]: robburns, by that explanation issue-57 is clearly not separate from issue-20; it's one design space
16:40:21 [MikeSmith]: issue-32?
16:40:21 [trackbot]: ISSUE-32 -- Include a summary attribute for tables? -- RAISED
16:40:21 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/32
16:40:21 [oedipus]: MS: issue-32
16:40:30 [DanC]: we need to talk with Joshue about adding issues
16:40:38 [oedipus]: MS: include @summary for table
16:40:39 [robburns]: hsivoen, true but that's hope has nothing to do with whether issue-57 should be in the tracker
16:40:48 [oedipus]: MS: pretty well covered by action 66
16:40:55 [MikeSmith]: issue-55?
16:40:55 [trackbot]: ISSUE-55 -- head/@profile missing, but used in other specifications/formats -- RAISED
16:40:55 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/55
16:41:07 [oedipus]: MS: last issue 55 no @profile on HEAD
16:41:20 [oedipus]: MS: JR opened up - discussed on list, but bit detatched
16:41:30 [oedipus]: DanC: suggest you put the question on that one
16:41:44 [oedipus]: MS: concrete proposal and vote to leave in or out - henri, thoughts?
16:41:52 [DanC]: Topic: ISSUE-55 head-profile
16:42:23 [DanC]: (I'm not happy with leaving it out, but I don't have any new information... I don't expect to convince anybody I haven't already convinced)
16:42:36 [Julian]: q+ to say it's a disambiguation mech
16:42:36 [oedipus]: HS: use cases for @profile would be better solved by looking at microformats work; having profile means consumer specifically programmed not to understand content unless fits profile; consumers better off if always try to understand the content
16:43:15 [oedipus]: MS: understanding content would mean doing some analysis of content of page - parsing the content of the page to determine through algorithm what class of content it is, right?
16:43:52 [oedipus]: HS: unlikely to ocurr likely - unambiguous
16:43:55 [MikeSmith]: ack Julian
16:43:55 [Zakim]: Julian, you wanted to say it's a disambiguation mech
16:44:53 [oedipus]: JR: one can argue that combination of class names not likely to occur without intents documented - for those who don't want to use, harmless, for those who want it, should have it - why removed?
16:45:27 [DanC]: (re zero cost to implementors and small cost to keep in the spec, I agree; I made that point in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jul/0571.html )
16:45:44 [oedipus]: MS: hixie's position is as single attribute is harmless, but the design philosophy/principles or what hixie has said feature should not go into HTML5 without clear use cases for it in sufficient critical mass not to include
16:46:04 [hsivonen]: harmless stuff takes people's time if promoted
16:46:10 [oedipus]: MS: accumulation of "harmless" stuff that clutters the ML and makes unweildy - that is reasoning behind it
16:46:17 [DanC]: (darn; hixie's summary msg isn't cited from http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/55 )
16:46:21 [oedipus]: MS: another straw on the camel's back
16:46:32 [oedipus]: MS: continue discussion on list
16:46:50 [oedipus]: DanC: haven't heard any arguements today haven't heard before - put the question
16:47:03 [oedipus]: MS: yes means "keep current state of no @profile"
16:47:37 [oedipus]: DanC: cite hixie's summary - might have only gone to whatwg list
16:48:01 [DanC]: (this is a msg from hixie in the relevant thread... http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008May/0102.html )
16:48:05 [MikeSmith]: ACTION: Mike to raise question to group about Yes, leave @profile out, No, re-add it -- and cite Hixie's summary of the discussion
16:48:06 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-75 - Raise question to group about Yes, leave @profile out, No, re-add it -- and cite Hixie's summary of the discussion [on Michael(tm) Smith - due 2008-08-28].
16:48:22 [oedipus]: MS: end of agenda
16:48:28 [MikeSmith]: q?
16:48:29 [oedipus]: TOPIC: Other Business?
16:48:41 [Julian]: publication?
16:49:01 [oedipus]: MS: rather not talk about publication on call today - amount of time
16:49:07 [oedipus]: DanC: i'm not going anywhere
16:49:18 [oedipus]: DanC: ask in email
16:49:29 [DanC]: Topic: publication schedule
16:49:33 [oedipus]: MS: summary - have obligation to comply with heartbeat req
16:50:02 [oedipus]: MS: obligation to keep public and w3c membership informed - should be publishing PWD at regular intervals
16:50:31 [oedipus]: MS: published last in June - every 3 months would be publishing in September, but i think we should be publishing now in august
16:50:31 [DanC]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/0412.html "It's past mid-August, should we publish?"
16:50:47 [oedipus]: MS: hixie sent message asking about publication plans
16:51:00 [DanC]: -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jul/0413.html October target for HTML5 WD with HTML forms integration
16:51:39 [anne]: (we might collide with some IE release again, but I guess that's ok)
16:51:42 [oedipus]: MS: issue that precludes agreement - need to resolve that before we can publish - need agreement from powers-that-be to ok publication under conditions, hasn't yet been negotiated
16:51:54 [DanC]: I think a Sep ETA is fine; it's <= 10 June 2008 + 3 months
16:52:05 [oedipus]: MS: issue within teams trying to resolve - not free to discuss today
16:52:13 [oedipus]: DanC: set new ETA for September
16:52:18 [oedipus]: MS: specific date?
16:52:19 [anne]: DanC, the idea was to measure from the FPWD
16:52:31 [DanC]: I'm not sure where that idea came from
16:52:32 [oedipus]: DanC: 10 September 2008 - six months after 10 june
16:52:37 [DanC]: s/six/three/
16:52:54 [oedipus]: MS: any comments about setting 10 september as goal?
16:52:54 [gsnedders]: DanC: MikeSmith, IIRC
16:53:07 [oedipus]: MS: sounds good to me
16:53:41 [oedipus]: MS: to reiterate, should try to publish as often as possible so public knows what we are doing;
16:53:55 [oedipus]: MS: other comments?
16:54:01 [oedipus]: TOPIC: Next Meeting
16:54:08 [oedipus]: MS: Chris can you chair next week?
16:54:10 [oedipus]: CW: yes
16:54:22 [oedipus]: MS: will have meeting next week; Chris will send out agenda
16:54:27 [oedipus]: MS: move to adjourn
16:54:33 [oedipus]: ADJOURNED
16:54:34 [Julian]: bye
16:54:36 [Zakim]: -hsivonen
16:54:40 [oedipus]: rrsagent, make minutes
16:54:40 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
16:54:41 [Zakim]: -Julian
16:54:42 [MikeSmith]: Zakim, drop Mike
16:54:42 [Zakim]: Mike is being disconnected
16:54:42 [Zakim]: -Mike
16:54:45 [Zakim]: -robburns
16:54:47 [Zakim]: -Gregory_Rosmaita
16:54:47 [Zakim]: -Laura
16:54:56 [oedipus]: zakim, who is here?
16:54:56 [Zakim]: On the phone I see DanC, ChrisWilson
16:54:57 [Zakim]: On IRC I see gDashiva, ed, ChrisWilson, Laura, robburns, oedipus, Zakim, RRSAgent, aaronlev, smedero, shepazu, billmason, sryo, beowulf, Yudai, timeless, MikeSmith, heycam, Julian,
16:55:01 [Zakim]: ... tH, ROBOd, dbaron, tlr, anne, hober, gavin, xover, drry, Kuruma, gavin_, gsnedders, jmb, krijnh, jgraham, timelyx, DanC, matt, Dashiva, Philip, ed_work, inimino, deltab,
16:55:03 [Zakim]: ... takkaria, Hixie, hsivonen, trackbot, t
16:55:03 [Zakim]: -ChrisWilson
16:55:04 [MikeSmith]: oedipus: thanks extremely much for scribing
16:55:11 [oedipus]: no problem
16:55:28 [oedipus]: zakim, please part
16:55:28 [Zakim]: leaving. As of this point the attendees were Mike, Julian, Gregory_Rosmaita, DanC, robburns, shepazu, +1.218.349.aabb, Laura, ChrisWilson, hsivonen
16:55:28 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #html-wg
16:55:49 [oedipus]: rrsagent, make minutes
16:55:49 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
16:56:17 [MikeSmith]: oedipus: yep, please push them out
16:56:26 [MikeSmith]: oedipus: I think218 is Laura
16:56:30 [oedipus]: MikeSmith: shall do
16:58:01 [oedipus]: present- +1.218.349.aabb
16:58:04 [oedipus]: rrsagent, make minutes
16:58:04 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
16:58:43 [oedipus]: rrsagent, please part
16:58:43 [RRSAgent]: I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-html-wg-actions.rdf :
16:58:43 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Michael(tm) to raise on the list for discussion the issue of XSLT output=html (non)compliance in HTML5 [1]
16:58:43 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-html-wg-irc#T16-09-30
16:58:43 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Mike to raise question to group about Yes, leave @profile out, No, re-add it -- and cite Hixie's summary of the discussion [2]
16:58:43 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-html-wg-irc#T16-48-05