15:56:14 RRSAgent has joined #html-wg
15:56:14 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-html-wg-irc
15:56:16 RRSAgent, make logs public
15:56:19 Zakim has joined #html-wg
15:56:19 Zakim, this will be HTML
15:56:19 ok, trackbot; I see HTML_WG()12:00PM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
15:56:19 Meeting: HTML Issue Tracking Teleconference
15:56:19 Date: 21 August 2008
15:56:27 Chair: MikeSmith
15:57:15 oedipus has joined #html-wg
15:57:23 Apologies, I'm in a CSS WG meeting and forgot to e-mail.
15:57:31 noted, anne
15:57:56 I'm available for questions though, as we're discussing font matching and I'm not really knowledgeable in that :)
15:58:02 (having said that, it's interesting)
15:59:39 robburns has joined #html-wg
16:00:09 Zakim, call Mike
16:00:09 ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
16:00:10 I'm afraid the agenda was a) really late and b) no longer reflecting reality
16:00:10 HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
16:00:11 +Mike
16:00:21 (the CSS WG F2F agenda that is)
16:00:38 the SVG WG wants to HTML and SVG to align on an issue of focused elements when they are removed from the tree... could I bring this up here, or what?
16:00:46 Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:00:46 On the phone I see Mike
16:01:05 + +49.251.280.aaaa
16:01:16 Zakim, +49.251.280.aaaa is me
16:01:16 +Julian; got it
16:01:17 DanC, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2008JulSep/0133.html
16:01:21 +Gregory_Rosmaita
16:01:50 DanC, so the last point of today does align with what we're discussing at this point, that's good :)
16:02:06 scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
16:02:09 DanC, though Friday item 1 has been discussed yesterday
16:02:15 scribeNick: oedipus
16:02:30 rrsagent, make logs world-visible
16:02:57 +??P14
16:02:58 -??P14
16:03:18 shepazu: yeah, OK
16:03:23 +[IPcaller]
16:03:24 Laura has joined #html-wg
16:03:25 (about your question)
16:03:37 +DanC
16:03:47 robburns
16:04:19 Zakim, who's on the call?
16:04:19 On the phone I see Mike, Julian, Gregory_Rosmaita, [IPcaller], DanC
16:04:21 +??P0
16:04:26 yes, I'm on the phone listening
16:04:39 ChrisWilson has joined #html-wg
16:04:40 If anyone needs help with the issue tracking system, you can ping me on IRC. I can't make the call though... I've got to deal with my relator via phone at this time.
16:04:40 Zakim, IPcaller is robburns
16:04:40 +robburns; got it
16:05:03 Zakim, ??P0 is me
16:05:03 +shepazu; got it
16:05:19 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda
16:06:02 TOPIC: Agenda Addenda
16:06:11 DS: how to address SVG in HTML5
16:06:24 + +1.218.349.aabb
16:06:31 s/SVG in HTML5/focus issues/
16:06:36 MS: issue is - focused elements when removed from tree
16:06:43 Zakim, aabb is Laura
16:06:43 +Laura; got it
16:06:59 MS: other agenda addenda?
16:07:00 ed has joined #html-wg
16:07:07 DC: you Mike?
16:07:13 q+
16:07:21 MS: goals for call - end early
16:07:28 no objections logged
16:07:36 ack Julian
16:08:00 JR: finished discussing how to procede with open issues in tracker - have nagging feeling not proceding
16:08:21 MS: talked about issue of making HTML5 compliant with XSLT output = HTML
16:08:32 MS: give myself action on that
16:08:53 Topic: ISSUE-54 html5-from-xslt
16:08:53 regrets+ Joshue
16:09:05 +[Microsoft]
16:09:10 zakim, microsoft is me
16:09:10 +ChrisWilson; got it
16:09:30 ACTION: Michael(tm) to raise on the list for discussion the issue of XSLT output=html (non)compliance in HTML5
16:09:31 Created ACTION-74 - Raise on the list for discussion the issue of XSLT output=html (non)compliance in HTML5 [on Michael(tm) Smith - due 2008-08-28].
16:09:38 thanks
16:09:52 rrsagent, make minutes
16:09:52 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
16:09:58 +??P11
16:10:12 Zakim, +??P11 is hsivonen
16:10:12 sorry, hsivonen, I do not recognize a party named '+??P11'
16:10:19 MS: issues hixie said are making changes to spec - what to do next - which move ahead with in discussion leading to resolution
16:10:19 (I thought we were using "pending review" for the ones where the editor had considered all arguments.)
16:10:30 Zakim, ??P11 is hsivonen
16:10:30 +hsivonen; got it
16:10:43 zakim, who is talking?
16:10:54 ChrisWilson, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: hsivonen (19%), Mike (92%)
16:11:25 MS: want to get feedback from henriS - issue raised b/c no way to output HTML5 doctagged document from XSLT output
16:11:46 q+
16:11:53 ack Julian
16:11:55 MS: HenriS pointed out least of problems with HTML output from XSLT engines; list of problems; having discussion about his list of problems on list
16:12:35 JR: HenriS has good list but XSLT 1.0 doesn't have any problems writing average HTML docs except for doctypes - interesting for future of XSLT development, but distraction from core issue
16:12:39 (I'm inclined to postpone ISSUE-54 html5-from-xslt , pending a new output mode for XSLT)
16:12:42 q+ to say that the namespace thing is more core
16:12:46 DanC: seems like core issue to me - what is issue then?
16:13:02 MS: very specifically about cannot generate doctype of HTML5 with public identifier
16:13:16 DanC: working group issue - changed to include things henri mentioned in request
16:13:54 ack hsivonen
16:13:54 hsivonen, you wanted to say that the namespace thing is more core
16:13:59 MS: but julian said, a lot of other edge cases - doctype is low hanging fruit - one that is most important - could optionally put public/system identifier on HTML5 doctype - think would be ok, but want others' opinions
16:14:36 q+
16:14:39 HS: new empty elements and namespaces; empty element issue - want to use event source, you can - those "edge cases" are what are new in HTML5 - if not using new features of HTML5, use HTML4
16:14:49 q+ to say "I think we should have a public identifier, because as I've said before having some version ID is good programming practice"
16:15:09 HTML5 is meant to replace HTML4, no?
16:15:13 (hmm... isn't the HTML 5 spec intended to obsolete HTML 4? why should anybody bother with HTML 4? I guess I better double-check...)
16:15:56 (I don't think it does anything with HTML4 at all.)
16:16:11 q?
16:16:13 HS: other problem - namespace - old HTML needs custom XSLT because in no namespace - would be endoresement of XSLT not capable of outputting HTML - not evolvable, so if add SVG or MathML later, have code base based on a hack without right namespace - tweaking to allow using old HTML output mode for HTML5 doctype gives false sense of security and encourages them to do wrong thing rather than creating tree for XSLT to output HMTL5
16:16:13 (It effectively obsoletes it as far as user agents are concerned though.)
16:16:22 MS: excellent points
16:16:26 q+ to respond to hsivonen
16:16:30 ack Julian
16:17:55 (olivier has got Henri's validator code glued into the w3c validation service code, and there's an interesting question of when to use which code; seems to me the html5 validator should be invoked on docs with the html4 doctype too, since that's how browsers treat them. I'm not sure.)
16:18:00 JR: 2 things: plenty of things in HTML5 one would want to try (new navigation elements), but no way to do except through hack; second agreee that drawback of XSLT HTML output mode but been copied for years - claiming critical now is a distraction; XHTML generating stylesheet so can mechanically write XSLT to output what you need; don't think these are reasons not to discuss main issue for which ticket opened
16:18:02 ack ChrisWilson
16:18:02 ChrisWilson, you wanted to say "I think we should have a public identifier, because as I've said before having some version ID is good programming practice"
16:18:23 CW: having public identifier good practice anyway, would help here as well
16:18:30 ack MikeSmith
16:18:30 MikeSmith, you wanted to respond to hsivonen
16:18:36 (public identifier when there's no corresponding public text? wft?)
16:18:41 MS: touches on versioning
16:18:49 CW: still have unresolved floating issue on versioning
16:19:16 "This specification represents a new version of HTML4" -- http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#relationship . hm.
16:19:33 q+ to say that sticking to the old HTML output mode is unintuitive unless you know XSLT very well
16:19:42 q+
16:20:21 MS: henri's point - don't want to encourage users to rely on current output HTML too much; conceeding on this will lead users to expect we do more; what we can do to deal with no way to make current XSLT engines to recognize new empty elements, can't fix from HTML side; will need to be better HTML output method than what exist now - what to do in meantime; there are people (me included) who want to generate HTML5 compliant output from XSLT without resort to
16:20:39 (there's not much urgency to this issue, is there? I'd rather read hsivonen's and julian's arguments in email. I suggest the chair quit arguing a position and get back to chairing ;-)
16:20:47 MS: if can address most of user needs by adding optional public identifier to doctype, should discuss - are there any negative side-effects
16:20:47 q-
16:21:03 MS: one thing talked about with ARIA is not meant to be permenant solution
16:21:03 (I'm OK to taking this to email)
16:21:07 ack Julian
16:21:47 (new empty elements... anybody got an example handy?)
16:22:03 JR: one last thing: if argument is that HTML5 introduces new empty elements, and producers asusme new elements/unknown elements are empty, should we be adding empty elements to HTML5 - XSLT made that assumption, other producers may have problems as well
16:22:07 DanC, ,