13:47:16 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #xhtml
13:47:16 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/08/20-xhtml-irc
13:47:19 <oedipus> alessio, have i pointed you to http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/RoleAttribute - need to synch with your work on @role for object
13:47:22 <Steven> zakim, this is xhtml
13:47:22 <Zakim> ok, Steven; that matches IA_XHTML2()9:45AM
13:47:27 <Steven> zakim, who is here?
13:47:27 <Zakim> On the phone I see ShaneM
13:47:28 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, alessio, ShaneM, Tina, oedipus, Steven
13:47:33 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
13:47:33 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
13:47:34 <Zakim> +Steven
13:47:58 <Steven> rrsagent, make log public
13:48:00 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
13:48:09 <Zakim> + +04670855aaaa
13:48:10 <Steven> Meeting: Weekly XHTML2 WG Teleconference
13:48:21 <Steven> Chair: Steven
13:48:28 <Steven> zakim, aaaa is Tina
13:48:28 <Zakim> +Tina; got it
13:48:35 <Zakim> +??P9
13:48:42 <alessio> zakim, ??P9 is Alessio
13:48:42 <Zakim> +Alessio; got it
13:49:11 <Steven> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Aug/0041
13:49:16 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Aug/0041
13:49:25 <Steven> Regrets: Roland, Mark
13:50:35 <oedipus> zakim, choose a victim
13:50:35 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Tina
13:51:03 <oedipus> scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
13:51:13 <oedipus> scribeNick: oedipus
13:51:49 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
13:51:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/20-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
13:52:17 <oedipus> TOPIC: Outstanding Reviews
13:52:35 <oedipus> SP: MarkB just got back from holiday, so will ping him about XSD review later this week
13:52:41 <oedipus> SP: important issue today is RDFa
13:53:01 <oedipus> SP: spec has been in CR - lots of implementations
13:53:14 <oedipus> SP: 4 implementations with everything
13:53:33 <oedipus> SP: only need 2 for every feature, we have 4; well done, shane
13:53:47 <oedipus> SP: have to decide to send RDFa on to PR status
13:54:46 <oedipus> SP: handled all CR comments; have discussion with Shane today on a single issue, hopefully after that discussion can move to PR
13:54:55 <oedipus> TOPIC: RDFa Transitioning to PR
13:55:20 <oedipus> SM: RDFa defines a module - that module defines collection of attributes
13:55:20 <Steven> zakim, mute alessio
13:55:20 <Zakim> Alessio should now be muted
13:55:30 <Steven> zakim, who is noisy?
13:55:39 <oedipus> SM: RDFa also provides an instance of this against XHTML M12n
13:55:40 <Zakim> Steven, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ShaneM (73%), Tina (40%)
13:55:51 <Steven> zakim, mute tina
13:55:51 <Zakim> Tina should now be muted
13:55:57 <Steven> zakim, unmute alessio
13:55:57 <Zakim> Alessio should no longer be muted
13:56:08 <oedipus> SM: problem: way we add attributes is add them to existing attribute collection, the common attribute collection
13:56:20 <oedipus> SM: handful of elements that don't use the common attribute collection
13:56:34 <oedipus> SM: is it ok to add attributes by hand in places where common isn't used
13:56:47 <oedipus> SM: should we be adding common to elements, or just metadata attributes
13:57:02 <oedipus> SP: had problem in past with @id - did we fix by putting "core"  on elements
13:57:10 <oedipus> SM: no - put @id on all elements
13:57:40 <oedipus> SP: XHTML1.1+RDFa in short term, put on elements; when regenerate XHTML 1.1, we fix the issue
13:57:57 <oedipus> SM: not easy to fix - module defined wrong and needs to be fixed
13:58:08 <oedipus> SM: uses modules to fix so have to add to driver
13:58:24 <oedipus> SM: driver override of what is in module - don't use attribute list from module
13:58:32 <oedipus> SP: for long term, add it all
13:58:50 <oedipus> SM: what does it mean to add "common" to script - what would it mean on script module/element
13:59:39 <oedipus> SP: good question -- don't think does any harm; same argument with XHTML Basic - didn't want attributes that didn't match things that didn't happen - didn't want markup to catch events that won't get fired; 
14:00:08 <oedipus> SP: if events don't happen, they don't happen - makes no difference if attributes there; because one CAN put attributes on SCRIPT, doesn't mean it is non-sense
14:00:23 <oedipus> SM: putting onBlur on SCRIPT doesn't mean anything
14:00:52 <oedipus> SP: right, so don't do it; in principle is allowed, but in princiiple could make script viewable and clickable; non-viewable in principle is has display none
14:01:01 <oedipus> SM: can't currently override with style
14:01:18 <oedipus> SP: in stylesheet could script { display:block; }
14:01:42 <oedipus> SM: in regards RDFa SP thinks fine to put meta attributes on everything: not on SYTLE, SCRIPT and PARAM
14:01:56 <oedipus> s/and PARAM/or PARAM
14:02:04 <oedipus> SM: think might need HREF on all of them
14:02:15 <oedipus> SP: resource, but not href everywhere
14:02:34 <oedipus> SM: changed and then ben had problems with it because resolved to put it everywhere in july 2007
14:02:40 <oedipus> SP: ben most against it
14:02:46 <oedipus> SM: creative commons said didn't care
14:02:55 <oedipus> SM: href everywhere in CR draft
14:03:20 <oedipus> SM: will put meta information attributes on SCRIPT, STYLE and PARAM and will ship
14:03:24 <oedipus> SM: any other comments?
14:03:29 <oedipus> GJR: yeah, we're done!
14:03:34 <alessio> <script> is correctly styled on FF, but not in IE6... I'll se on IE7
14:03:43 <oedipus> SM: ok to resolve to publish
14:04:22 <oedipus> SP: try and get MarkB to join IRC to vote
14:05:27 <oedipus> SP: can delay a few minutes until MarkB can join
14:05:59 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
14:05:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/20-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
14:06:37 <oedipus> SM: willing to table and move on until we can get more members
14:06:46 <oedipus> TOPIC: Modularization Transition
14:07:01 <oedipus> SP: ongoing - not yet reply from commentor - if don't come soon, will re-ping
14:07:11 <oedipus> SP: can prepare documents in any case
14:08:14 <oedipus> SP: rich going to join
14:08:36 <Zakim> +??P0
14:08:49 <oedipus> zakim, ??P0 is RichS
14:08:49 <Zakim> +RichS; got it
14:09:18 <oedipus> SP: we would  like to vote on RDFa today - just finished CR and want to transition to PR
14:09:33 <oedipus> SP: if you agree, we can record your position
14:09:47 <oedipus> RS: plus one to transition RDFa to PR
14:10:03 <ShaneM> +1
14:10:06 <Tina> +1
14:10:07 <Zakim> -RichS
14:10:09 <oedipus> GJR: plus 1
14:10:11 <alessio> +1
14:10:14 <Steven> +1
14:11:07 <oedipus> proposed RESOLUTION: XHTML2 WG agrees transition RDFa from CR to PR
14:11:18 <oedipus> RESOLUTION: XHTML2 WG agrees transition RDFa from CR to PR
14:11:22 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
14:11:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/20-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
14:11:57 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/implementation-report/
14:11:57 <oedipus> GJR: implementation report URI, SP?
14:12:04 <ShaneM> ACTION: ShaneM to add RDFa attributes to script, style, and param elements in XHTML+RDFa implementation - leaving out was an oversight
14:12:28 <oedipus> TOPIC: XHTML Media Type document
14:12:33 <oedipus> SP: SM requested we move ahead
14:12:57 <oedipus> SM: been sitting on it for while - did a lot of work then drifted away; what is plan on getting from editor's draft to Note
14:13:36 <oedipus> SP: question is how to get out there with idea that has had enough discussion to show been discussed - send to HTC for final discussion?
14:13:42 <oedipus> SM: a Note, so no approval cycle
14:14:08 <oedipus> SP: trying to reflect reality, so it is ok to deliver XHTML using text/html because IT JUST WORKS
14:14:16 <oedipus> SM: and here are some hints for making it work better
14:14:18 <oedipus> SP: right
14:15:10 <oedipus> SP: if just publish as note, could say "just documenting real world" but if say to HTC "planning to publish, has real world implications, any comments before transition to note?
14:15:12 <Tina> That DOES mean we are back to rubberstamping current practice.
14:15:44 <oedipus> SP: may get opinions either way - HTC good place to air - maximum hit for minimum investment
14:16:18 <oedipus> SM: in terms of process, i will take a pass to ensure that draft is clean; will notify list when i'm done, and SP can then notify HTC
14:16:28 <oedipus> SM: HTC meets next friday
14:16:30 <ShaneM> ACTION: ShaneM to ensure XHTMLMIME is ready to socialize, then inform the group (and Steven in particular) no later than 22 August.
14:16:38 <oedipus> s/SM: HTC/SP: HTC
14:17:28 <oedipus> TOPIC: CURIE comment
14:17:56 <oedipus> SP: extended last call comments period; semantic web group said will send comments soon; surprise haven't received yet
14:18:01 <oedipus> TOPIC: Access Module
14:19:09 <oedipus> SP: did we look at any of the i18n issues last week?
14:20:23 <Steven> PR8044-48
14:21:01 <oedipus> SP: 47 and 44 substantive ones
14:21:24 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Aug/0006.html
14:21:43 <oedipus> scribe's note: in 13 august 2008 minutes - SP stated "principle is to have keys all in one set and diff sets in diff modalities"
14:22:01 <Tina> We discussed this last week, yes?
14:22:18 <oedipus> SM: suggestion can be read 2 ways; 1) additional control that would allow author to indicate the annotation or 2) remove text about UA annotating key
14:22:24 <oedipus> SM: if UA can recognize...
14:23:17 <oedipus> SP: suggest we say we recognize concern and that is why couch discussion in terms of "MAY" and "e.g." and think that current text covers this case
14:23:26 <oedipus> GJR: plus one from me
14:24:32 <oedipus> SP: "likely to be problemmatic" but we say "depends on UA" - we recommend use of access key in label; if UA can, can do in such and such a matter; not in conflict with commentor's comments; covers cases like his
14:24:44 <oedipus> SP: text fine as is - covers richardI's cases
14:24:48 <oedipus> GJR: agree
14:24:55 <oedipus> SM: agree
14:25:02 <alessio> agree
14:25:05 <oedipus> SP: happy to write reply myself
14:25:26 <alessio> :)
14:25:31 <Steven> ACTION: Steven to reply to Richard Ishida's comment 8044
14:25:36 <oedipus> SM: turn to 47
14:25:43 <oedipus> SM: discussed at length last week
14:25:51 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2008/08/13-xhtml-minutes.html#item05
14:26:22 <oedipus> SP: didn't come to conclusion, but felt "not our problem"
14:26:31 <oedipus> SM: changed wording a little
14:26:46 <oedipus> SP: can reply changed wording to clarify; please take a look and tell us if suffices
14:27:12 <oedipus> SM: used "abstraction" - TH, GJR and i discussed in hour after call on IRC
14:27:27 <ShaneM> The key attribute represents an abstraction. The use of the name "key" for this attribute is historical and does not mean that there is any association with a specific "key" on a keyboard, per se. It is up to the user agent to provide a mechanism for mapping the document character set value(s) of the attribute to the input methods available to the user agent. For instance, on some systems a user may have to press an "alt" or "cmd" key in addition to the access key
14:28:17 <oedipus> GJR: notes that has outstaning request to WAI/PF and UAAG to review new draft and to propose what to do when key bound to element not in label for element
14:29:23 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JulSep/0088.html
14:29:29 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JulSep/0089.html
14:29:43 <oedipus> SP: easy to find out what is being used - UA has necessary info
14:29:56 <oedipus> GJR: programmatically not a problem; discoverability is the issue
14:30:48 <oedipus> GJR: discoverability for those with disabilities who don't use assistive tech
14:31:32 <oedipus> SP: different access keys for different UAs - might have 2 sets of accesskeys - 1 for full-blown computer, one for mobile device - keep text and offer different bindings
14:32:43 <oedipus> GJR: will discuss at this week's UAAG telecon (tomorrow, 21 august 2008)
14:33:01 <oedipus> SP: other comments from RI editorial - don't need to discuss/thrash out on call
14:34:01 <oedipus> [fyi] porting Access Module to HTML5 - http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/AccesskeyRequirements
14:34:06 <Zakim> -Alessio
14:34:47 <Zakim> +??P0
14:34:53 <alessio> zakim, ??P0 is Alessio
14:34:53 <Zakim> +Alessio; got it
14:35:00 <oedipus> SM: concern is do we want to say anything about accesskey from HTML4; "meant to be used instead of that - in MLs where both are present/supported, Access Module is preferred"
14:35:22 <oedipus> GJR: position i have advocated in UAAG - access module preferred
14:35:30 <oedipus> SP: a bit like @style versus STYLE
14:35:37 <oedipus> SM: just adding something to event loop
14:35:54 <oedipus> SP: good way to approach - difference btw @style and STYLE - one overrides the other
14:36:16 <oedipus> SM: what if 3 access elements with identical key attributes?
14:36:40 <oedipus> AC: good question
14:37:17 <oedipus> SP: so what happens if multiple bindings of same key to different elements; 1) disallow (don't have to say what happens); 2) not recommended, but here is what happens when you do it
14:37:28 <oedipus> SM: think we have to take the latter tack; is allowed
14:37:31 <oedipus> AC: agree
14:37:34 <oedipus> SP: can live with that
14:38:13 <oedipus> SM: 2 targetids and 1 targetrole in example - give people rich enough environment by providing ability to provide multiple toles or IDREFs
14:38:25 <oedipus> SP: media query impllications?
14:38:47 <oedipus> SP: attribute not currently on STYLE is in XHTML2 in common collection; don't want to say "not allowed"
14:39:15 <oedipus> SP: perhaps call them "active bindings" if host language has way to switch off, can have bindings to same key, but not active at same time
14:39:51 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-mediaAttribute.html#s_mediaAttributemodule
14:40:01 <oedipus> SM: don't define active, so trying to figure out definition
14:40:19 <oedipus> SP: same wording used in XHTML2 for @media module
14:40:27 <oedipus> SM: wouldn't mind brining media into this element
14:40:40 <oedipus> SP: already there in XHTML2
14:40:46 <oedipus> SP: make up-front now
14:40:51 <oedipus> GJR: plus 1 to doing it now
14:41:01 <oedipus> SP: plus 1
14:41:06 <alessio> +1
14:41:20 <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane to add @media to the access module - steal text from XHTML 2.  
14:41:25 <Tina> +1
14:41:28 <oedipus> SP: now can speak of "active access elements"
14:41:37 <oedipus> TOPIC: Wrap Up
14:41:41 <oedipus> SP: last minute comments?
14:41:45 <oedipus> ADJOURNED
14:41:48 <Zakim> -Steven
14:41:49 <Zakim> -ShaneM
14:41:50 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
14:41:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/20-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
14:41:53 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
14:41:54 <Zakim> -Tina
14:41:55 <Zakim> -Alessio
14:41:55 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has ended
14:41:57 <Zakim> Attendees were ShaneM, Steven, Gregory_Rosmaita, +04670855aaaa, Tina, Alessio, RichS
14:42:03 <Steven> Thanks yet again Gregory
14:42:07 <oedipus> no problem
14:42:09 <Steven> and happy birthday again
14:42:13 <oedipus> thanks!
14:42:22 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
14:42:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/20-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
14:42:53 <oedipus> present- +04670855aaaa
14:42:57 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
14:42:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/20-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
14:43:45 <oedipus> RESOLVED: add @media to the access module - using text from XHTML 2
14:43:49 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
14:43:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/20-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
14:46:42 <oedipus> rrsagent, please part
14:46:42 <RRSAgent> I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/20-xhtml-actions.rdf :
14:46:42 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ShaneM to add RDFa attributes to script, style, and param elements in XHTML+RDFa implementation - leaving out was an oversight [1]
14:46:42 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/20-xhtml-irc#T14-12-04
14:46:42 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ShaneM to ensure XHTMLMIME is ready to socialize, then inform the group (and Steven in particular) no later than 22 August. [2]
14:46:42 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/20-xhtml-irc#T14-16-30
14:46:42 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Steven to reply to Richard Ishida's comment 8044 [3]
14:46:42 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/20-xhtml-irc#T14-25-31
14:46:42 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shane to add @media to the access module - steal text from XHTML 2.   [4]
14:46:42 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/20-xhtml-irc#T14-41-20