IRC log of rif on 2008-08-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:56:34 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:56:34 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:56:43 [ChrisW]
zakim, this will be rif
14:56:43 [Zakim]
ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
14:56:58 [ChrisW]
Meeting: RIF Telecon 19-Aug-08
14:57:05 [ChrisW]
Chair: Chris Welty
14:57:58 [ChrisW]
14:58:12 [ChrisW]
ChrisW has changed the topic to: 19 Aug RIF Telecon Agenda
14:58:22 [ChrisW]
Scribe: MichaelKifer
14:58:32 [ChrisW]
zakim, clear agenda
14:58:32 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
14:59:13 [mdean]
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15:00:04 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:00:11 [Zakim]
15:00:19 [yuting]
yuting has joined #rif
15:00:33 [yuting]
15:00:47 [josb]
josb has joined #rif
15:01:04 [Zakim]
15:01:06 [Zakim]
15:01:40 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Admin
15:01:44 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Liason
15:01:46 [Zakim]
15:01:53 [DaveReynolds]
DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:02:14 [Hassan]
Hassan has joined #rif
15:02:22 [Zakim]
15:02:22 [StellaMitchell]
StellaMitchell has joined #rif
15:02:25 [AdrianP]
AdrianP has joined #rif
15:02:37 [Zakim]
15:02:55 [Zakim]
+ +1.914.784.aaaa
15:03:04 [ChrisW]
zakim, aaaa is me
15:03:04 [Zakim]
+ChrisW; got it
15:03:06 [LeoraMorgenstern]
LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
15:03:30 [Zakim]
15:03:32 [Zakim]
15:03:44 [Zakim]
15:03:55 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:03:56 [Zakim]
+Dave_Reynolds (was John_Boyer)
15:04:02 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Mike_Dean, josb, MichaelKifer, Sandro, JeffP, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), ChrisW, Dave_Reynolds, Stella_Mitchell, LeoraMorgenstern
15:04:43 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Action review
15:04:49 [ChrisW]
agenda+ F2F11
15:04:54 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Core
15:04:58 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Test Cases
15:05:03 [ChrisW]
agenda+ External review
15:05:07 [ChrisW]
agenda+ AOB
15:05:37 [MichaelKifer]
MichaelKifer has joined #rif
15:06:05 [AxelPolleres]
AxelPolleres has joined #rif
15:06:26 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:06:26 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:06:42 [Zakim]
+ +0493516aabb
15:06:55 [AdrianP]
Zakim, aabb is me
15:06:55 [Zakim]
+AdrianP; got it
15:07:02 [AdrianP]
Zakim, mute me
15:07:02 [Zakim]
AdrianP should now be muted
15:07:10 [Hassan]
15:07:17 [Zakim]
15:07:17 [ChrisW]
Scribe: Hassan
15:07:59 [ChrisW]
15:08:17 [ChrisW]
PROPOSED: accept minutes of Aug 12 telecon
15:08:24 [MichaelKifer_]
MichaelKifer_ has joined #rif
15:08:29 [ChrisW]
RESOLVED: accept minutes of Aug 12 telecon
15:08:30 [MichaelKifer_]
15:08:51 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:08:51 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:09:03 [AxelPolleres]
15:10:02 [Hassan]
Sandro: OWL WG meeting a few weeks ago: go to last call in Oct 08. Draft due next month.
15:10:06 [AxelPolleres]
15:10:20 [MichaelKifer_]
I can try scribing and hope my Inet connection holds up
15:10:25 [ChrisW]
ack axel
15:10:36 [Hassan]
me it's ok mike
15:10:49 [MichaelKifer_]
15:11:15 [sandro]
15:11:17 [Hassan]
Axel: reporting on the OWL/RIF comments
15:11:51 [AxelPolleres]
s/OWL\/RIF comments/rdf:text/
15:12:15 [ChrisW]
action: chris to figure out how to link to rdf:text comments
15:12:15 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-559 - Figure out how to link to rdf:text comments [on Christopher Welty - due 2008-08-26].
15:13:21 [AxelPolleres]
sandro will add a link to with the mailinglist address to solicit feedback?
15:14:08 [Hassan]
Axel: still open issues remaining; on his (Axel's) side nothing new to tell
15:14:18 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:14:18 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Action review" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:15:16 [AdrianP]
Zakim, unmute me
15:15:16 [Zakim]
AdrianP should no longer be muted
15:15:33 [AdrianP]
15:15:38 [AxelPolleres]
I completed ACTION-552, see
15:15:59 [AdrianP]
currently the semantics does not account for pattern formula associated with an enclosing Forall
15:16:25 [AdrianP]
Zakim, mute me
15:16:25 [Zakim]
AdrianP should now be muted
15:18:24 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:18:24 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "F2F11" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:19:05 [Hassan]
No suggestion for hotels
15:19:08 [Zakim]
+ +1.503.533.aacc
15:20:07 [Hassan]
ChrisW: try hotels in Brooklyn or wven Queens using public trans. to get lower rates
15:20:22 [Hassan]
15:20:42 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:20:42 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "Core" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:20:46 [yuting]
Zakim, mute me
15:20:46 [Zakim]
sorry, yuting, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
15:21:15 [GaryHallmark]
GaryHallmark has joined #rif
15:21:37 [ChrisW]
action: chris to put DTB review on agenda for next week
15:21:37 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-560 - Put DTB review on agenda for next week [on Christopher Welty - due 2008-08-26].
15:22:07 [ChrisW]
15:22:48 [Hassan]
ChrisW: What should CORE be?
15:23:44 [Hassan]
BLD intersected PRD = CORE?
15:24:54 [Hassan]
DaveReynolds and GaerHallmark agree on this def
15:25:09 [Hassan]
15:25:23 [AdrianP]
Zakim, unmute me
15:25:23 [Zakim]
AdrianP should no longer be muted
15:26:01 [Hassan]
ChrisW: Assume this is so (CORE *is* the intersection) - how do we define this language?
15:27:07 [Hassan]
GaryHallmark: decidability or tractability issues for CORE are not relevant for RIF
15:27:11 [AdrianP]
15:27:35 [Hassan]
ChrisW: What does such an intersection look like?
15:28:02 [Hassan]
GaryHallmark: we could extract the syntax from the common grammar rules
15:28:35 [AdrianP]
core production rule syntax, i.e. without negation; only assert in the head and without the special pattern formula in the forall
15:29:02 [ChrisW]
ack adrian
15:29:05 [Hassan]
GaryHallmark: intended semantics overlap is a fuzzy concept; make things that are relevant or not more explicit
15:29:26 [Hassan]
AdrianP: Suggests a specific language
15:29:51 [Hassan]
AdrianP: will work it out (for the condition language)
15:29:56 [ChrisW]
action: AdrianP to document the BLD/PRD syntax intersection
15:29:57 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - AdrianP
15:30:05 [ChrisW]
action: Adrian to document the BLD/PRD syntax intersection
15:30:05 [trackbot]
Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - Adrian
15:30:05 [trackbot]
Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. agiurca, apaschke)
15:30:08 [AdrianP]
15:30:19 [ChrisW]
action: apaschke to document the BLD/PRD syntax intersection
15:30:19 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-561 - Document the BLD/PRD syntax intersection [on Adrian Paschke - due 2008-08-26].
15:30:50 [AdrianP]
Zakim, mute me
15:30:50 [Zakim]
AdrianP should now be muted
15:31:14 [AdrianP]
15:31:34 [Hassan]
ChrisW: Handling of external functions; skolem functions as well
15:31:43 [Hassan]
Subclassing also
15:32:20 [Hassan]
DaveReynolds: prefers that CORE stay minimal and not have membership and subclass
15:33:04 [josb]
15:33:10 [ChrisW]
ack jos
15:33:20 [Hassan]
ChrisW: Who would disagree as a maximal intersection of PRB and BLD?
15:33:39 [Hassan]
Jos: how useful a language would that be?
15:34:10 [Hassan]
ChrisW: a maximal intersection of PRB and BLD would make interchange easier
15:34:24 [Hassan]
Jos: yes, but there may be other uses for CORE
15:34:55 [Hassan]
ChrisW: so it should be easy to "implement"
15:35:04 [AdrianP]
other uses e.g. the integration of CORE + ontologies. Decidability is often a requirement for many application scenarios
15:35:43 [GaryHallmark]
PRD has no equality in the head, so neither does Core
15:35:50 [Hassan]
ChrisW: Jos would an Easy-To-Implement core bigger or less?
15:36:01 [Hassan]
Jos: it would be less
15:36:56 [Hassan]
GaryHallmark: it would be goood to itemize "things" make make this hard ... disjunction?
15:37:11 [Hassan]
15:37:12 [AdrianP]
disjunction in the body can be split into two rules, so there is no need to have it in Core
15:37:30 [Hassan]
s/make make/that make/
15:38:06 [Hassan]
DaveReynolds describes features that he's wish for CORE (a la JENNA)
15:38:29 [Hassan]
15:39:01 [AdrianP]
15:39:14 [Hassan]
ChrisW: another aspect is to relate it to existing languages
15:39:46 [Zakim]
15:39:50 [ChrisW]
action: Dave to open CORE issues on tracker
15:39:50 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-562 - Open CORE issues on tracker [on Dave Reynolds - due 2008-08-26].
15:40:09 [ChrisW]
15:40:12 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:40:12 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "Test Cases" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:40:19 [Hassan]
ChrisW: More on Core?
15:40:33 [Hassan]
No more on core
15:40:42 [AdrianP]
the discussion points:
15:41:52 [Hassan]
ChrisW: shooting for one-month after the F2F to have the final draft ready
15:41:55 [StellaMitchell]
15:41:56 [AdrianP]
Zakim, unmute me
15:41:56 [Zakim]
AdrianP should no longer be muted
15:42:11 [StellaMitchell]
about how many test cases by then?
15:42:17 [MichaelKifer_]
MichaelKifer_ has joined #rif
15:42:19 [Hassan]
ChrisW: review of the approach?
15:42:37 [AdrianP]
Zakim, unmute me
15:42:37 [Zakim]
AdrianP was not muted, AdrianP
15:43:12 [Hassan]
Discussing format of the document
15:43:27 [AdrianP]
15:44:43 [Hassan]
StellaMitchell: Test Case Number of Results as an example
15:44:55 [josb]
15:45:23 [Hassan]
AdrianP: explains what a query is in the context on the test case
15:45:53 [ChrisW]
ack jos
15:46:15 [Hassan]
Jos: Why do you need such a concept as a "query"?
15:46:39 [AxelPolleres]
I made some comments on test cases and "query" answers in my mail.
15:46:54 [Hassan]
Jos: proposes a simple scheme instead
15:47:13 [Hassan]
ChrisW: we have not defined what a query is
15:47:16 [AxelPolleres]
+1 to jos because enumerating "answers" is not possible, especially if there are infinite answers.
15:47:30 [Hassan]
Jos: exactly so better not use it
15:48:10 [Hassan]
AdrianP: we need it because entailment is not enough in certain test cases
15:48:31 [Hassan]
Jos: argues against the need
15:48:37 [AxelPolleres]
... also, we'd need a defined output format, etc.
15:48:43 [ChrisW]
15:48:58 [Hassan]
ChrisW: I think Adrian is referring more to a unit test
15:49:05 [AdrianP]
15:50:06 [Hassan]
ChrisW: does not like the arrow of the frame notation
15:50:35 [Hassan]
(Test case Positive Entailment Test)
15:51:26 [Hassan]
ChrisW: understands the notation Premiss -> Conclusion
15:52:33 [AxelPolleres]
15:52:47 [AxelPolleres]
no arbitrary condition...
15:53:31 [Hassan]
ChrisW: hesitant to define a whole new language for just test cases
15:53:32 [AxelPolleres]
... I was suggesting such more general built-ins some time ago.
15:53:39 [AxelPolleres]
15:53:46 [ChrisW]
ack a
15:53:56 [DaveReynolds]
positive and negative entailment tests seem like the main ones to me
15:54:07 [GaryHallmark]
can a BLD expert comment on the "answer" to
15:54:14 [Hassan]
Axel: agrees - need a new language for the queries, the output, etc ...
15:54:47 [Hassan]
ChrisW: try to focus on entailment
15:55:39 [Hassan]
StellaMitchell: question on the exact nature of the test cases
15:55:44 [josb]
Gary: Indeed, A(t), for any ground term t, is entailed
15:56:05 [Hassan]
ChrisW: test cases should use things that are expressible in BLD
15:56:19 [josb]
If you say everything is in A, you can derive that everything is in A
15:56:43 [Hassan]
ChrisW: let's keep it simple
15:56:47 [AxelPolleres]
I would have more comments when it comes to test cases for core... but I don't know whether this is in scope of the discussion now and whether I haven't said all in the mails yet on this topic.
15:57:27 [josb]
15:57:32 [Hassan]
ChrisW: Jos and Michael - please think up some test cases for BLD
15:57:35 [ChrisW]
ack jos
15:58:00 [Hassan]
Jos: also w/ RDF and OWL - will do
15:58:15 [StellaMitchell]
15:59:01 [Hassan]
ChrisW: anyone else please as well
15:59:38 [AdrianP]
16:00:05 [AdrianP]
a test case for each DTB built-in
16:00:09 [josb]
16:00:09 [Hassan]
StellaMitchell: do we need things like shown in "Built-Ins numeric add" test case?
16:00:11 [AdrianP]
Zakim, mute me
16:00:11 [Zakim]
AdrianP should now be muted
16:00:54 [Hassan]
ChrisW: this looks more like what I was imagining ...
16:01:24 [Hassan]
StellaMitchell: do we need to verify that all the builins are implemented?
16:01:24 [josb]
16:01:28 [sandro]
16:01:35 [Hassan]
16:01:45 [ChrisW]
action: chris to add "test case for every builtin?" to issues list
16:01:45 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-563 - Add \"test case for every builtin?\" to issues list [on Christopher Welty - due 2008-08-26].
16:01:49 [AdrianP]
usually test cases a simple, at least from the point of view of test-driven development in agile programming
16:01:53 [ChrisW]
ack jos
16:02:05 [AdrianP]
16:02:10 [Hassan]
Jos: wonders if test cases for consistency checking are needed?
16:02:18 [josb]
16:02:53 [AxelPolleres]
jos, could you specify an example for where builtins cause inconsistency?!?
16:03:06 [AdrianP]
beside entailment tests we currently have syntax tests
16:03:11 [AdrianP]
16:03:33 [Hassan]
ChrisW and Axel do not believe so
16:04:04 [Hassan]
StellaMitchell: it was question to have some consistency checks are needed
16:04:13 [ChrisW]
ack sandro
16:04:28 [Hassan]
s/checks/checks where they/
16:04:28 [AdrianP]
I listed some categories of potential test cases here
16:05:06 [josb]
Axel: currently not sure whether there is anything besides equality that can cause inconsistency, but I suspect there is
16:05:21 [Hassan]
Sandro: agrees that as much consistency check should be done (necessary conditions, not sufficient)
16:05:54 [AdrianP]
inconsistency e.g. in PRD due to negation
16:06:13 [Hassan]
Sandro: discusses the format of the tests (for nested tables) and how to simplify it
16:06:37 [AdrianP]
Zakim, unmute me
16:06:37 [Zakim]
AdrianP should no longer be muted
16:07:05 [Hassan]
AdrianP: asks a question about editing the test cases
16:07:41 [Hassan]
AdrianP: using a standard syntax or XML
16:08:06 [Hassan]
StellaMitchell: yes we need an official format
16:08:13 [Zakim]
16:08:27 [GaryHallmark]
stella: nice to be able to enter tests in presentation syntax and then auto convert to XML
16:08:54 [StellaMitchell]
did Hassan write a program to convert PS to XML?
16:09:21 [Zakim]
16:09:30 [Hassan]
Sandro: discusses how to organize the wiki to automate all this
16:10:29 [Hassan]
Sandro: using RDF data and XHTML tables
16:11:25 [Zakim]
16:11:47 [ChrisW]
action: hassan to finish PS to XML conversion based on LC BLD grammar
16:11:48 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-564 - Finish PS to XML conversion based on LC BLD grammar [on Hassan Ait-Kaci - due 2008-08-26].
16:13:40 [Hassan]
Sandro: discussing using Pres. Syntax and then generate XML form
16:14:49 [Hassan]
ChrisW: how do we ensure that all versions of the same syntax are kept consistent with one another?
16:15:35 [Hassan]
ChrisW: the idea is to keep all the wiki versions of the same thing be kept consistent (in PS or XML)
16:15:50 [Hassan]
Sandro: there are ways to do that ...
16:16:41 [Hassan]
ChrisW: test metadata and the submission process?
16:16:59 [Hassan]
AdrianP: describes the current submission process ...
16:17:14 [Hassan]
ChrisW: what about an editorial process?
16:17:19 [Hassan]
AdrianP: yes
16:17:35 [Hassan]
ChrisW: how - email? wiki?
16:17:35 [LeoraMorgenstern]
I think email submission is fine.
16:18:12 [Hassan]
Sandro: not sure of ways to do that ...
16:18:26 [LeoraMorgenstern]
If it's emailed to the WG, we will have a record of it, but still not allow access to the wiki.
16:18:36 [Hassan]
Sandro: ... from the wiki
16:18:49 [LeoraMorgenstern]
In any case, we have to vet and modify the examples, so there will be work involved in any case with exernal submissions.
16:18:55 [Hassan]
Sandro: let us use email for now
16:19:07 [LeoraMorgenstern]
I agree Sandro; I don't think we'll get many email submissions
16:19:58 [Hassan]
ChrisW: we'll review this again next week
16:20:39 [AdrianP]
Zakim, mute me
16:20:39 [Zakim]
AdrianP should now be muted
16:20:44 [ChrisW]
action: sandro to get CVS access for TCG
16:20:44 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-565 - Get CVS access for TCG [on Sandro Hawke - due 2008-08-26].
16:21:18 [Hassan]
ChrisW: giving a pat on the back of Adrian et al...
16:21:21 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
16:21:21 [Zakim]
agendum 7. "External review" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:22:02 [ChrisW]
16:22:09 [Hassan]
ChrisW: external review from Peter Patel-Schneider
16:22:41 [ChrisW]
who is on the phone?
16:22:51 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:22:51 [Zakim]
On the phone I see josb, Sandro, JeffP, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, ChrisW, Dave_Reynolds, Stella_Mitchell, LeoraMorgenstern, AdrianP (muted), +1.503.533.aacc, Mike_Dean
16:22:52 [sandro]
q+ CVS item
16:22:56 [Hassan]
Jos: perhaps Michael should respond
16:22:58 [sandro]
16:23:00 [sandro]
16:23:03 [sandro]
q- cvs
16:23:06 [sandro]
q- item
16:23:09 [ChrisW]
zakim, aacc is GaryHallmark
16:23:09 [Zakim]
+GaryHallmark; got it
16:23:31 [ChrisW]
action: Chris to ask MK to look at PFPS4
16:23:31 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-566 - Ask MK to look at PFPS4 [on Christopher Welty - due 2008-08-26].
16:23:44 [ChrisW]
16:23:48 [josb]
16:24:12 [AdrianP]
16:24:15 [StellaMitchell]
16:24:46 [ChrisW]
ack jos
16:25:09 [sandro]
Is this page public?
16:25:35 [Hassan]
ChrisW: saying something wise ... ;-)
16:25:49 [ChrisW]
action: chris to ask axel to look at 2cnd to last comment on PFPS4
16:25:49 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-567 - Ask axel to look at 2cnd to last comment on PFPS4 [on Christopher Welty - due 2008-08-26].
16:25:55 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
16:25:55 [Zakim]
I do not see any non-closed or non-skipped agenda items, ChrisW
16:26:07 [AdrianP]
Sandro, no it is not public
16:26:09 [josb]
16:26:13 [Hassan]
+1 to adjourn
16:26:15 [Zakim]
16:26:17 [Zakim]
16:26:20 [Zakim]
16:26:21 [Zakim]
16:26:21 [Zakim]
16:26:23 [Zakim]
16:26:24 [Zakim]
16:26:27 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, list attendees
16:26:27 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'list attendees', ChrisW. Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:26:33 [ChrisW]
zakim, list attendees
16:26:33 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Mike_Dean, josb, MichaelKifer, Sandro, JeffP, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, +1.914.784.aaaa, ChrisW, Stella_Mitchell, LeoraMorgenstern, Dave_Reynolds,
16:26:37 [Zakim]
... +0493516aabb, AdrianP, AxelPolleres, +1.503.533.aacc, GaryHallmark
16:26:39 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:26:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ChrisW
16:26:44 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make logs public
16:27:25 [Zakim]
16:27:27 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:27:27 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Sandro, JeffP, ChrisW
16:27:36 [ChrisW]
zakim, drop jeffp
16:27:36 [Zakim]
JeffP is being disconnected
16:27:36 [sandro]
zakim, drop jeffp
16:27:37 [Zakim]
JeffP is being disconnected
16:27:37 [Zakim]
16:33:33 [sandro]
16:34:58 [Zakim]
16:34:59 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:35:01 [Zakim]
Attendees were Mike_Dean, josb, MichaelKifer, Sandro, JeffP, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, +1.914.784.aaaa, ChrisW, Stella_Mitchell, LeoraMorgenstern, Dave_Reynolds, +0493516aabb, AdrianP,
16:35:04 [Zakim]
... AxelPolleres, +1.503.533.aacc, GaryHallmark
16:41:19 [yuting]
18:59:54 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #rif