14:53:26 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #backplane
14:53:26 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-backplane-irc
14:53:36 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #backplane
14:53:42 <oedipus> rrsagent, set logs world-visible
14:53:56 <oedipus> meeting: RWAB XG Weekly Teleconference
14:54:05 <oedipus> chair: Charlie_W
14:55:34 <oedipus> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-app-backplane/2008Aug/0015.html
14:55:46 <oedipus> scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
14:55:51 <oedipus> ScribeNick: oedipus
14:56:20 <Charlie> not so far, no
14:56:45 <jackjansen> jackjansen has joined #backplane
14:57:06 <oedipus> http://wiki.codetalks.org/wiki/index.php/How_to_create_accessible_JavaScript_widgets
14:57:45 <Charlie> zakim, who is here?
14:57:45 <Zakim> sorry, Charlie, I don't know what conference this is
14:57:46 <Zakim> On IRC I see jackjansen, Zakim, RRSAgent, Charlie, oedipus
14:57:51 <Charlie> zakim, this will be RWAB
14:57:51 <Zakim> ok, Charlie, I see INC_RWAB()11:00AM already started
14:58:05 <Charlie> zakim, who is here?
14:58:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IBM]
14:58:06 <Zakim> On IRC I see jackjansen, Zakim, RRSAgent, Charlie, oedipus
14:58:07 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
14:58:10 <Charlie> zakim, [IBM] is Charlie
14:58:10 <Zakim> +Charlie; got it
14:58:25 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
14:58:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-backplane-minutes.html oedipus
14:59:24 <oedipus> zakim, who is here?
14:59:25 <Zakim> On the phone I see Charlie, Gregory_Rosmaita
14:59:26 <Zakim> On IRC I see jackjansen, Zakim, RRSAgent, Charlie, oedipus
15:00:57 <Charlie> lost you
15:02:01 <JohnBoyer> JohnBoyer has joined #backplane
15:02:23 <Zakim> +Jack_Jansen
15:02:23 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:02:44 <Steven> Steven has joined #backplane
15:03:19 <Zakim> +John_Boyer
15:03:35 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
15:03:35 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:03:42 <Zakim> +Steven
15:03:51 <oedipus> TOPIC: Starting Up - Agenda Review
15:04:01 <oedipus> 1. Starting work on the XForms simplified syntax in the Ubiquity project. How (or is) this related to the Backplane? 
15:04:06 <oedipus> 2. Plans for demo(s) -- what can we show given current focus areas? a. custom controls for ubiquity library in YUI; b. Data model integration in YUI and Dojo; C. SMIL integration with XForms models; d. Extending the simple loan form with accessibility features (ARIA enabled loan form?) 
15:04:10 <oedipus> 3. Finalize goals for joint meetings at Tech Plenary -- given the above, which WGs to meet? 
15:04:46 <Kevin> Kevin has joined #backplane
15:05:13 <oedipus> for reference: http://code.google.com/p/ubiquity-xforms/wiki/StorySimplifiedSyntax
15:06:12 <thomas> thomas has joined #backplane
15:06:30 <Steven> zakim, who is noisy?
15:06:40 <Zakim> Steven, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Gregory_Rosmaita (60%), Jack_Jansen (48%), [IBM] (4%)
15:06:48 <Steven> zakim, mute jack
15:06:48 <Zakim> Jack_Jansen should now be muted
15:07:50 <oedipus> CW: discuss ARIA and XForms - talk about what it means to be "ARIA enabled" - bit more context might lead into main topic - plan for TPAC 2008
15:08:14 <oedipus> CW: email with Debi Dahl - MMI WG or Voice/MMI joint meeting - an hour on tuesday or thursday
15:08:28 <oedipus> CW: liaising with PF WG and Al Gilman
15:08:44 <oedipus> CW: John, web-apps APIs - forms discussion and backplane discussion
15:09:09 <oedipus> CW: how does all of what we've discussed fit together; cross-over with groups we want to meet with at TPAC2008
15:09:29 <oedipus> TOPIC: ARIA-Enabled - What Does It Mean?
15:09:48 <oedipus> CW: connect dots between ARIA properties and xforms ubiquity project - loan example
15:09:54 <oedipus> GJR: ARIA discussion
15:12:35 <rahul> rahul has joined #backplane
15:13:06 <oedipus> CW: dojo starts with div - causes dojo runtime to expand that and then render DIV in accordance to script block
15:13:17 <jackjansen> q+ to ask whether there's a whitepaper or other intro on ARIA
15:13:51 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-role/
15:14:24 <jackjansen> q-
15:15:15 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/
15:20:24 <Steven> http://dojotoolkit.org/book/dojo-book-0-4/part-8-internationalization-and-accessiblity/accessibility/web-accessibility-issu
15:22:11 <oedipus> CW: ubiquity xforms supports data-binding, xforms notification events - controls extended to accessibility APIs
15:24:04 <oedipus> CW: need to do more than support @role - can understand how would hook together
15:24:05 <oedipus> q?
15:24:25 <oedipus> CW: example of what should do for TPAC - 
15:25:11 <oedipus> CW: interesting thread of investigation
15:25:23 <oedipus> CW: how much can be leveraged out of widgets in dojo
15:25:32 <oedipus> GJR: also YUI supporting ARIA
15:27:59 <oedipus> CW: data model work in dojo ported to YUI
15:28:11 <oedipus> TOPIC: Toolbag Review
15:28:22 <oedipus> CW: what makes sense and who to contact at TPAC
15:28:47 <oedipus> CW: base work on ubiquity library itself - XML Events and work towards embedding xforms functionality in AJAX and dojo
15:29:09 <oedipus> CW: ubiquity not yet fully implemented - can mix and match as needed
15:29:33 <oedipus> CW: ubiquity cross-platform delivery programming model - 
15:30:42 <oedipus> CW: custom control - how to use native components in calendars or color picker - binding presentatino object using XForms; data model refactoring data model; SMIL state oriented API - bridging mechanism; not just GUI methodology but multi-modal methodology
15:30:56 <oedipus> CW: decide on core scenario or demo
15:31:23 <oedipus> CW: thoughts from those on call - who to impact, what specifics to discuss, what best demo to cover as many cases as possible
15:31:35 <oedipus> CW: contact with Voice and WAI-PF
15:32:28 <oedipus> JB: not had a chance to put anything together - interested in (a) modularizatino of components - how much will be available; modules used independently would have IDL libraries associated with them, not just declarative markup
15:32:43 <oedipus> JB: interest in how the things actually work to create behavior
15:34:13 <oedipus> JB: short of m12n, ubiquity library - through script libraries able to achieve functionality which xforms rec specified; for large classses of W3C technologies not being held back by UA implementatino; scripts could wire together a centralized data model using components from data libraries bilaterally communicationg; W3C markups that automatically imply behaviors from other W3C specs; xforms controls needs note that input is "rude"
15:34:25 <oedipus> JB: messaging about core library without modularization
15:34:41 <Steven> q+
15:34:44 <oedipus> CW: isn't this all an XBL story?  using XBL in stripped down version due to lack of UA support
15:35:10 <oedipus> CW: doesn't detract from core of JB's point; what we want is clean runtime support for w3c supplied program letter
15:36:03 <oedipus> SP: second a lot of what JB said; i see our main message being W3C architecture where W3C techs can be plugged together; don't have to define techs monolithically, but can be pieced together, important top-level message; should be unified visino of how W3C should work
15:36:38 <oedipus> SP: second message to communicate is don't have to depend on UA devs to achieve this - can still make happen because UAs are extensible via script that is largely invisible/under the covers
15:37:02 <oedipus> CW: could make points with non-modularized ubiquity - runs in YUI, has controls associated with it, but is still xforms 1.1 app
15:37:28 <oedipus> SP: dojo is extending UAs without UAs having anything to do with it; W3C technologies can be leveraged to do the very same thing
15:37:50 <oedipus> CW: added load method to trigger reloading - flags events when done
15:37:53 <oedipus> JB: that's good
15:38:20 <oedipus> CW: more confident - might have utility for non-xforms markup - especially from behavior POV; can talk about this with Forms WG
15:39:09 <oedipus> JB: flickr demo, too - uses separate modules; don't need to have m12n complete to get out message - W3C standards and features can be supported, m12n promotes greater adoption and interoperability
15:40:11 <oedipus> JB: platform message - can make argument that AJAX/Javascript library allows w3c techs to be implemented and provided without the UA participation; allows us as community to find out what works, what needws work, proof-of-value; may sway UA devs for native support
15:40:50 <oedipus> JB: XBL skimmed down due to IE limitations; another data point for native XBL - XForms component becaumes popular, will be demand for native UA support
15:41:22 <oedipus> CW: messaging around core ubiquity library - embedding in YUI and CSS - refactoring data side would be strong message in aand of itself
15:42:45 <oedipus> JB: same class of small apps - purchase order form - more dynamic than just repeat; if can show accessiblity smarts, that is good third message to bring to we apps group - creating content with xforms, gettting good a11y behavior, just using dojo library would have to do yourself;
15:43:36 <jackjansen> q+
15:43:40 <oedipus> JB: first ring: javascript/AJAX for implementation of W3C techs; second: modularization; third: accessibility automatic behaviors can get amongst separate techs through platform
15:43:44 <Steven> q-
15:44:01 <oedipus> CW: extend ubiquity xforms with subset of notations
15:44:04 <oedipus> q?
15:44:08 <oedipus> cak jackjansen
15:44:14 <oedipus> ack jackjansen
15:45:14 <oedipus> JJ: fourth ring follows from second and third - if write web apps modularized and with ARIA, can be leveraged to DI - could have big impact on way web app devs can get stuff out
15:45:51 <oedipus> JB: 1 strength is multi-modality (re-targetting) - always address from implementor side; JJ descirbed how web app community could do this with module replacement - verb part of our noun
15:46:16 <oedipus> CW: like the 4 rings as message
15:47:17 <oedipus> JB: how do you write a dojo app - adding controls to elements that ask for certain scripted behavior - showing simplified syntax very appealing to web apps group - looks like what they are used to (controls with attributeds) - can be done both ways
15:47:46 <oedipus> CW: content-generation model - empty page with DIVs - content generated underneath div for content generation; sitll there, but one step abstracted
15:47:53 <oedipus> CW: presentation generation
15:48:19 <oedipus> JB: there is nothing strange about set of W3C techs we are providing; looks, works, and smells like dojo 
15:48:53 <oedipus> CW: content generation cycle - about to get into design discussions - repeatable process with multiple iterations over time
15:49:03 <oedipus> CW: looping manner aspect very useful
15:49:54 <oedipus> CW: backplane XG connection with authoring and composability of w3c artifacts and how relate to web and serve as components that can be mixed and matched; content generation at page load
15:50:00 <oedipus> CW: thanks for pointing that out
15:50:23 <oedipus> CW: syntax, demos - what else?
15:50:49 <oedipus> CW: consider JJ's SMIL demo something in back pocket; could do demo on my machine 
15:51:00 <oedipus> CW: GJR follow up offline on a11y stuff
15:51:08 <oedipus> GJR: yes will work on simple loan app
15:51:31 <oedipus> JB: one hope is might be able to ARIA enable processor
15:51:52 <oedipus> CW: do version of abstract control that is ARIA-enabled; loan form good because only few element types
15:52:07 <oedipus> JJ, a11y equals accessibility; m12n equals modularization
15:52:26 <oedipus> q-
15:52:32 <oedipus> q- sorry
15:52:35 <Steven> ack sorry
15:52:40 <Steven> ack prof
15:52:48 <Steven> ack short
15:52:52 <Steven> ack -
15:52:59 <oedipus> thanks steven
15:53:06 <oedipus> CW: can join Forms call
15:53:25 <oedipus> JB: might help if you do it; can get Forms WG on thursday
15:53:36 <oedipus> JB: both backplane and forms meeting
15:53:51 <oedipus> CW: separate conversation around simplified syntax with HTML guys
15:53:54 <oedipus> JB: right
15:54:00 <oedipus> CW: anything else for today?
15:54:08 <oedipus> CW: regrets for upcoming meetings?
15:54:13 <oedipus> CW: push ahead then
15:54:17 <oedipus> ADJOURNED
15:54:19 <Zakim> -[IBM]
15:54:20 <Zakim> -Steven
15:54:20 <Zakim> -John_Boyer
15:54:22 <Zakim> -Jack_Jansen
15:54:22 <Zakim> -Charlie
15:54:25 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
15:54:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-backplane-minutes.html oedipus
15:54:29 <JohnBoyer> JohnBoyer has left #backplane
15:54:29 <Charlie> Charlie has left #backplane
15:54:32 <oedipus> s/a11y/accessibility/G
15:54:35 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
15:54:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-backplane-minutes.html oedipus
15:54:40 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
15:54:41 <Zakim> INC_RWAB()11:00AM has ended
15:54:42 <Zakim> Attendees were Gregory_Rosmaita, Charlie, Jack_Jansen, [IBM], John_Boyer, Steven
15:55:00 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
15:55:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-backplane-minutes.html oedipus
15:55:02 <rahul> rahul has left #backplane
15:55:28 <oedipus> present- [IBM]
15:55:37 <oedipus> present+ Rahul_on_IRC
15:55:47 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
15:55:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-backplane-minutes.html oedipus
15:56:38 <oedipus> present+ Kevin_on_IRC
15:56:41 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
15:56:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-backplane-minutes.html oedipus
15:57:28 <oedipus> rrsagent, please part
15:57:28 <RRSAgent> I see no action items