IRC log of xhtml on 2008-08-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:45:28 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #xhtml

13:45:28 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/08/13-xhtml-irc

13:45:35 [Steven]

zakim, this will be XHTML

13:45:35 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; I see IA_XHTML2()9:45AM scheduled to start now

13:45:43 [Steven]

rrsagent, make log public

13:45:56 [Steven]

Meeting: Weekly XHTML2 WG Teleconference

13:46:00 [Steven]

Chair: Steven

13:46:14 [Tina]

Tina has joined #xhtml

13:46:28 [Steven]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Aug/0036.html

13:46:39 [Steven]

Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Aug/0036.html

13:46:46 [Steven]

regrets: Roland

13:47:39 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-617

13:47:39 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

13:47:40 [Zakim]

IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has now started

13:47:41 [Zakim]

+Steven

13:47:51 [Steven]

zakim, drop steven

13:47:51 [Zakim]

Steven is being disconnected

13:47:53 [Zakim]

IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has ended

13:47:53 [Zakim]

Attendees were Steven

13:48:16 [ShaneM]

ShaneM has joined #xhtml

13:48:30 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-617

13:48:30 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

13:48:31 [Zakim]

IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has now started

13:48:32 [Zakim]

+Steven

13:48:42 [Zakim]

+McCarron

13:48:55 [ShaneM]

zakim, McCarron is ShaneM

13:48:55 [Zakim]

+ShaneM; got it

13:49:11 [Zakim]

+Gregory_Rosmaita

13:49:27 [oedipus]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Aug/0036.html

13:50:38 [Zakim]

+Tina_Holmboe

13:51:24 [oedipus]

zakim, choose a victim

13:51:24 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Tina_Holmboe

13:54:21 [oedipus]

[fyi] i formally proposed to PF that HTML5 add @role for IMG

13:54:35 [ShaneM]

Scribe: ShaneM

13:55:25 [ShaneM]

Topic: Technical Plenary Registration

13:55:46 [ShaneM]

Registration is open. Who is planning to come? *crickets*

13:55:49 [oedipus]

GJR: coming good lord willin' and the crick don't rise

13:56:20 [ShaneM]

Tina is unsure if she will have time.

13:56:56 [ShaneM]

Steven thinks it will be very sparsely attended. Will see about organizing a teleconference.

13:57:11 [ShaneM]

Topic: Outstanding Reviews

13:57:22 [ShaneM]

XSD - not due for another month yet. Mark is doing it.

13:57:29 [ShaneM]

Topic: XHTML M12N PR Status

13:57:49 [ShaneM]

We went to PR and it went to a vote.

13:58:19 [ShaneM]

*Steven stretches it out to increase the suspense*

13:58:58 [ShaneM]

There were a reasonable number of member companies who voted.

13:59:53 [ShaneM]

We did get somebody who sent comments that are not suitable at this point in the review. They are more last call comments.

13:59:59 [ShaneM]

The person asked for 5 changes to the spec.

14:00:20 [ShaneM]

1) Please define a clear path between CDF and XHTML M12N 1.1

14:00:54 [ShaneM]

2) What's the goal of referencing Unicode 4.1?

14:01:08 [ShaneM]

3) Please update the reference to the XML specification to 4th edition.

14:01:25 [ShaneM]

4) Update the reference to namespaces in XML to the second edition.

14:01:42 [ShaneM]

5) Informative references points to XLink PR instead of Rec.

14:02:16 [oedipus]

SM: not our responsibility to do anything with regard to spec in regards CDF

14:04:17 [oedipus]

SM: reference unicode 1.1 and mention that it is updated; not sure that's a change

14:04:37 [oedipus]

SP: normative reference - where referenced from?

14:05:18 [oedipus]

SM: (checks) - reference in Special Character Entity Set defs as symbol set def; in the DTD implementation itself, defining unicode points that map to ASCII

14:05:40 [oedipus]

SP: "new names do not clash with..." "names are unicode names" - that's the only place

14:06:00 [oedipus]

TH: supposed to reference unicode per se? what does requestor want us to reference?

14:06:25 [oedipus]

SP: comment based on references section - different from XHTML2 which references 1.2

14:06:36 [oedipus]

SM: previous version referenced 3.1 - don't recall changing

14:07:07 [oedipus]

s/references 1.2/references 3.2

14:07:32 [oedipus]

s/reference unicode 1.1/reference unicode 3.1

14:07:44 [oedipus]

SP: answer - no difference - just reference most up to date one

14:08:07 [ShaneM]

We can reference 4th edition of XML.

14:08:39 [oedipus]

TH: version we refer to, versus version requestor wants to reference

14:09:05 [oedipus]

TH: if changed drastically in XML, then could understand change, but don't reference most up-to-date all the time

14:09:19 [oedipus]

SM: provide links to latest version often

14:09:28 [oedipus]

SM: these are a year-and-a-half old

14:09:39 [oedipus]

SM: no diff marked version of namespaces spec

14:11:22 [oedipus]

TH: see point, but as dev, prefer when document a refers to document b.x - can compare better knowing dates and changes

14:12:35 [ShaneM]

Shane: The second edition of namespaces is harmless

14:12:57 [ShaneM]

Steven proposes we say we will not do the CDF thing, that it does not matter we reference 4.1, and that we will make the changes to the other references.

14:13:22 [ShaneM]

Steven will get his OK on this.

14:13:33 [ShaneM]

ACTION: Shane to update the references.

14:13:41 [ShaneM]

ACTION: Steven to reply to the commentor.

14:14:17 [ShaneM]

ACTION: Steven get M12N published as a Recommendation with the changes applied.

14:14:46 [ShaneM]

ACTION2=Steven to reply to M12N commentor about how we will address their M12N objections.

14:15:00 [ShaneM]

Topic: XHTML Basic 1.1

14:15:10 [ShaneM]

All good - everything is fine.

14:16:27 [oedipus]

SM: ian jacobs asked me to make a change so that our implementations are in markup space, but a fixed version in TR space; can do this and will do it before Rec

14:16:38 [oedipus]

SM: fits in with "cool URIs don't change"

14:16:51 [oedipus]

SM: have to do for M12n, anyway

14:16:59 [oedipus]

SP: changes to XML 4th edition, and so on?

14:17:21 [oedipus]

SM: just thought it was a friendly observation, so made change to references

14:17:55 [ShaneM]

ACTION: Shane to update XHTML M12N DTD links so that there are versions in TR space and MarkUp space, as per XHTML Basic 1.1

14:18:18 [oedipus]

TOPIC: Access and SVG Request

14:18:39 [oedipus]

SM: 2 diff collections of SVG things - one bag not formally responded to; made most changes except for one request

14:19:17 [oedipus]

SM: topic this week about adding @order to access - dougS was at last week's meeting; thought we had agreement, then reconsidered; took doug's wording and tweaked it and he didn' like it

14:19:31 [oedipus]

SM: philosophic difference -

14:19:55 [oedipus]

SM: i need to withdraw myself from decision path

14:19:57 [oedipus]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Aug/0031.html

14:20:30 [oedipus]

SM: Doug thinks should describe positive behaviors, when docs written in conflict with standard, and i think we shouldn't - describe either no behavior or negative behavior

14:20:42 [oedipus]

SP: agree - if conflict, just a bad doc and don't have to address

14:20:49 [oedipus]

SM: traditional approach - could go further

14:20:58 [oedipus]

SP: wants us to define what a duplicate id does

14:21:13 [oedipus]

SM: positively, and that should work in violation of the principles of the ML

14:21:31 [oedipus]

TH: if write broken documents, expect bad results

14:22:18 [oedipus]

SM: always said that underlying protocols rule; if dependent on HTTP, can't define behavior that violates HTTP, and so on;

14:22:24 [oedipus]

GJR: plus 1 to SM

14:23:06 [oedipus]

SM: doug's other point is that access module is useful outside of XHTML and XML and should define it so can be used in other places; don't have scope, is an XHTML module,

14:23:43 [oedipus]

SP: not chartered to do it; ocassionally extended boundaries (XML Events, for example) - not just to work with our stuff, but everyone's but that was within XML framework

14:24:17 [oedipus]

TH: that is the problem - within XML framework; scope Doug talks about is use in theoretical MLs that don't exist or are not XML based

14:24:51 [oedipus]

SM: what i heard was "how to use in HTML5" - want to use access in SVG, so should NOT be a problem with Access, because it is all XML

14:25:02 [oedipus]

SP: should work with SVG, think we are good to go

14:25:04 [oedipus]

GJR: plus 1

14:25:33 [oedipus]

SM: doug proposed what happened when 2 diff IDs - added scenario to draft encased in @ signs

14:25:39 [ShaneM]

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-access-20080809/#sec_3.1.3.

14:26:50 [oedipus]

SP: sounds like we are all of one mind that should define rules for broken stuff

14:27:02 [ShaneM]

in particular rules that have positive behavior.

14:27:17 [oedipus]

TH: no - really should NOT define rules for both content within scope of XML to satisfy needs of HTML5

14:27:23 [ShaneM]

The current wording reads "Also note: When processing an invalid document, if there are duplicate ids, element groups based on targetid values may contain multiple values, just like those of targetrole values."

14:27:56 [oedipus]

http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/AccesskeyRequirements

14:28:13 [oedipus]

SM: say wither "invalid document, behavior is undefined" or nothing

14:28:18 [oedipus]

SP: strongly feel NOTHING

14:28:21 [oedipus]

TH: agree

14:28:25 [oedipus]

GJR: violently agree

14:28:38 [oedipus]

SM: valid XML document shouldn't get to application layer anyway

14:28:43 [Zakim]

-Tina_Holmboe

14:28:46 [oedipus]

SM: going to remove sentence

14:28:49 [Tina]

... that was fun

14:28:51 [oedipus]

SP: agreed

14:28:55 [oedipus]

GJR: agreed

14:28:59 [Tina]

Agreed - tho I fell out.

14:29:21 [oedipus]

SP: since speaking about Access, whole bunch of comments from i18n

14:29:34 [Zakim]

+Tina_Holmboe

14:30:40 [Steven]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Aug/0008.html

14:31:03 [oedipus]

SM: one which most concerns me is keycodes and characters - isn't clear that this section (3.1.2.) didn't take into account keycode and key produced by pressing key (reads from post refered to above)

14:31:15 [oedipus]

TH: that is an application / implementation problem

14:31:38 [oedipus]

SM: character in document character set - how one gets to that is up to app

14:32:38 [oedipus]

TH: implementation side - use access key with this symbol and do this action - how implementation triggers accesskey, may be through eye-blinking entry - may press key-combo - whether press key combo to create specific char in specific char set, is implementation decision

14:32:43 [oedipus]

TH: cites opera model

14:32:50 [oedipus]

GJR: agree that opera model best yet available

14:33:29 [oedipus]

TH: shouldn't say "have to press these specific keys" to get action; don't specify how, but structural construct is path to useability and accessibility

14:34:06 [oedipus]

TH: shouldn't be Access Module that tells one how to get keystroke generated, just provide means

14:35:06 [oedipus]

TH: should NOT define specific mechanism

14:35:41 [ShaneM]

The key attribute is an abstraction layer - how the user agent maps to that is up to the user agent. That's the whole point.

14:35:44 [oedipus]

TH: asian characters and glyphs from non-western scripts - user can use shortcut command to optimize functionality

14:35:49 [oedipus]

http://a11y.org/kafs

14:35:55 [oedipus]

http://a11y.org/kafs-gta

14:36:16 [oedipus]

SP: agree entirely - we speak of characters, not keys -- way to get particular character is application-dependent

14:36:35 [oedipus]

SP: different entry methods to enter extended / accented characters

14:36:47 [oedipus]

SP: nothing we can say about it, save that it is UA dependent

14:36:57 [oedipus]

TH: use word "symbol" instead of "key"

14:37:12 [oedipus]

http://gok.ca (GNOME on screen keyboard)

14:37:25 [Steven]

The invocation of access keys depends on the implementation. For instance, on some systems one may have to press an "alt" or "cmd" key in addition to the access key.

14:37:28 [oedipus]

TH: most often keypress, can be activated by other means, not in our scope, though

14:37:50 [oedipus]

SP: change to "or anything else that might happen"

14:38:04 [oedipus]

SM: or other user agent defined mechanisms for exposing shortcuts defined by access

14:38:19 [oedipus]

TH: can configure opera to trigger access key with mouse gestures

14:38:38 [ShaneM]

"or other user agent defined mechanisms that expose the abstraction made available by the access element and its key attribute."

14:38:39 [oedipus]

GJR: Opera+Voice accesskey implementation works

14:38:58 [oedipus]

TH: list of shortcuts in document

14:39:02 [oedipus]

SP: target change

14:39:38 [oedipus]

GJR: plus 1

14:39:48 [oedipus]

TH: hard read at first, but covers it well, so ok

14:39:52 [oedipus]

SP: good

14:40:05 [oedipus]

SP: 2 other comments from i18n

14:40:13 [oedipus]

SP: comment 2 and comment 4

14:40:17 [Steven]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Aug/0006.html

14:41:00 [oedipus]

SP: emphasizing visually role of key in label - problematic in non-western text

14:41:17 [oedipus]

SM: more basic problem with this text

14:41:20 [oedipus]

GJR: from UAAG

14:41:48 [oedipus]

SM: concern is we explicitly permit (and perhaps require) end users to over-ride mapping; how does that affect rendering if remap

14:42:05 [oedipus]

GJR: programmatically not an issue

14:42:14 [oedipus]

SM: agree, but have to state that

14:42:40 [oedipus]

TH: key="x" include x in label text, user changes to p, UA should remap action to p

14:43:09 [oedipus]

TH: should we reverse this text - if UA understands access keys and can identify the key in the label text, should emphasize it for user

14:43:41 [oedipus]

TH: right now says, author should include key - if user overrides key, then UA needs to pick up on it; but what if new key not in label? loose benefit

14:43:59 [oedipus]

SP: principle is to have keys all in one set and diff sets in diff modalities

14:45:26 [oedipus]

GJR: not opposed to anything said about access -- "visibility" in non-modal sense is stress of UAAG 2.0 drafting

14:45:38 [oedipus]

SP: more to discuss - continue on list

14:45:41 [ShaneM]

ACTION: Shane to go through I18N comments and propose specific changes.

14:45:50 [oedipus]

TH: have to discuss on list - other potential problems

14:46:14 [Zakim]

-Steven

14:46:16 [Zakim]

-ShaneM

14:46:27 [ShaneM]

ACTION: Tina to propose new text about how the access element @key value is exposed in labels.

14:46:39 [oedipus]

i/SM: ian/ScribeNick: oedipus

14:46:51 [Zakim]

-Gregory_Rosmaita

14:46:54 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:46:54 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/13-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

14:47:12 [Steven]

zakim, who is here?

14:47:12 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Tina_Holmboe

14:47:13 [Zakim]

On IRC I see ShaneM, Tina, RRSAgent, Zakim, oedipus, Steven

14:47:17 [Steven]

zakim, drop tina

14:47:19 [Zakim]

Tina_Holmboe is being disconnected

14:47:21 [Zakim]

IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has ended

14:47:25 [Zakim]

Attendees were Steven, ShaneM, Gregory_Rosmaita, Tina_Holmboe

14:47:30 [Steven]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:47:30 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/13-xhtml-minutes.html Steven

14:48:13 [oedipus]

i/SM: not our/ScribeNick: oedipus

14:48:35 [oedipus]

zakim, please part

14:48:35 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #xhtml

14:50:43 [oedipus]

i/SM: not our/ScribeNick+ oedipus

14:50:50 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:50:50 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/13-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

14:51:48 [oedipus]

i/Shane: The second/ScribeNick+ ShaneM

14:51:56 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:51:56 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/13-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

14:52:58 [oedipus]

s/Access and SVG Request/Access Module: SVG and i18n Requests/Comments

14:53:01 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:53:01 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/13-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

14:54:21 [oedipus]

s/Access and SVG Request/Access Module - SVG and i18n Requests/Comments

14:54:24 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:54:24 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/13-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

14:55:10 [oedipus]

s/TOPIC: Access and SVG Request/TOPIC: Access Module - SVG and i18n Requests/Comments

14:55:13 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:55:13 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/13-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

14:59:37 [oedipus]

s/Access and SVG Request/Access Module - SVG and i18n Requests & Comments

14:59:43 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:59:43 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/13-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

15:15:49 [Steven]

yes

15:16:05 [Steven]

rrsagent, bye

15:16:05 [RRSAgent]

I see 6 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/13-xhtml-actions.rdf :

15:16:05 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Shane to update the references. [1]

15:16:05 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/13-xhtml-irc#T14-13-33

15:16:05 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Steven to reply to M12N commentor about how we will address their M12N objections. [2]

15:16:05 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/13-xhtml-irc#T14-13-41

15:16:05 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Steven get M12N published as a Recommendation with the changes applied. [3]

15:16:05 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/13-xhtml-irc#T14-14-17

15:16:05 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Shane to update XHTML M12N DTD links so that there are versions in TR space and MarkUp space, as per XHTML Basic 1.1 [4]

15:16:05 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/13-xhtml-irc#T14-17-55

15:16:05 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Shane to go through I18N comments and propose specific changes. [5]

15:16:05 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/13-xhtml-irc#T14-45-41

15:16:05 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Tina to propose new text about how the access element @key value is exposed in labels. [6]

15:16:05 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/13-xhtml-irc#T14-46-27