IRC log of ua on 2008-08-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:46:40 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
17:46:40 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/08/07-ua-irc
17:46:54 [AllanJ]
zakim, this will be wai_u
17:46:54 [Zakim]
ok, AllanJ; I see WAI_UAWG()2:00PM scheduled to start in 14 minutes
17:47:06 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, set logs public
17:48:28 [AllanJ]
Meeting: UA Telecon
17:48:40 [AllanJ]
Chair: Jim Allan
17:49:12 [AllanJ]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JulSep/0069.html
17:49:48 [AllanJ]
Regrets: Alan Cantor, Jeanne Spellman
17:53:15 [AllanJ]
regrets+ Kelly_Ford
17:57:59 [sharper]
sharper has joined #ua
17:59:47 [judy]
judy has joined #ua
18:00:10 [Jan]
Jan has joined #ua
18:00:43 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()2:00PM has now started
18:00:50 [Zakim]
+??P3
18:01:00 [Jan]
zakim, ??P3 is really Jan
18:01:00 [Zakim]
+Jan; got it
18:01:35 [Zakim]
+??P5
18:01:56 [Zakim]
+ +1.512.206.aaaa
18:02:00 [Zakim]
- +1.512.206.aaaa
18:02:02 [Jan]
zakim, ??P5 is really sharper
18:02:02 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
18:02:25 [Zakim]
+ +1.512.206.aabb
18:02:59 [Jan]
zakim, +1.512.206.aabb is really AllanJ
18:02:59 [Zakim]
+AllanJ; got it
18:04:56 [judy]
zakim, code?
18:04:56 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), judy
18:05:04 [Zakim]
+Judy
18:05:35 [judy]
zakim, who's here?
18:05:35 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Jan, sharper, AllanJ, Judy
18:05:36 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Jan, judy, sharper, RRSAgent, Zakim, AllanJ
18:05:38 [AllanJ]
regrets+ Mark_Hakkenin
18:06:01 [Zakim]
+Cantor
18:06:34 [AllanJ]
regrets+ GJR
18:06:47 [AllanJ]
regrets- Alan
18:07:08 [Jan]
Scribe: Jan
18:08:30 [AllanJ]
scribe: Jim
18:08:42 [AllanJ]
scribe: AllanJ
18:09:06 [AllanJ]
topic: AU thinking on application guidelines
18:09:15 [Jan]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/AU/2008/WD-ATAG20-20080801/WD-ATAG20-20080801.html
18:09:43 [AllanJ]
JR: Above is editors draft from F2F in Redmond
18:10:01 [AllanJ]
... AU given up on benchmark claim.
18:10:23 [AllanJ]
... important to UAWG is application accessibility guidelines.
18:10:51 [AllanJ]
... ATAG felt application accessibilty was over kill
18:11:30 [AllanJ]
... already saying follow platform conventions which is a bit loose
18:12:01 [AllanJ]
... want to say the same thing about accessibility of software
18:12:24 [judy]
q+
18:12:32 [AllanJ]
.... could not put out software accessibilty guidelines that are parallel or equivalent to ISO
18:13:07 [AllanJ]
... now say - follow accessibility guidelines for your platform
18:13:39 [AllanJ]
Judy: long history with accessibility of software
18:13:45 [AllanJ]
... want to check on
18:14:16 [AllanJ]
... clear requirement to meet ATAG must meet ISO spec
18:14:39 [AllanJ]
... ATAG has specifics to authoring tool, not covered in ISO
18:15:39 [AllanJ]
JR: yes, ATAG will have guidelines for specific authoring tool application interface accessibility
18:16:26 [AllanJ]
Judy: how does this relate to UAAG
18:17:08 [AllanJ]
JR: need a review of UAAG guidelines to remove 'generic' ATAG items that were added in recent drafts.
18:17:26 [AllanJ]
Judy: any comments, concerns.
18:17:54 [AllanJ]
Shaper and Alan: need to review both documents
18:18:31 [AllanJ]
JR: Part A of ATAG, sccessibilty of authoring tool to the user with disabilities
18:18:36 [AllanJ]
... reviews structure
18:20:41 [Jan]
JA: Only concern is haven't looked at ISO
18:20:44 [AllanJ]
JR: ATAG simplification, UI vs content issues have lessened
18:21:03 [AllanJ]
JR: ATAG kept somethings to do with keyboard
18:21:12 [Jan]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/AU/2008/WD-ATAG20-20080801/WD-ATAG20-20080801.html#principle-operable
18:22:21 [AllanJ]
JR: specific keyboard accessibility guidelines will stay in ATAG
18:23:06 [AllanJ]
Judy: concerns - ATAG changes sounds straight forward, but is complex
18:23:58 [AllanJ]
... perhaps need an action in UAAG to review items.
18:24:52 [AllanJ]
Judy: ISO cost concerns
18:25:39 [AllanJ]
JR: no normative reference to ISO, up to conformant to choose software accessibility guidelines
18:27:01 [AllanJ]
JR: explaining rationale
18:28:12 [AllanJ]
Judy: many standards are in flux. current 508 does not have coverage that UAAG10 has. Users and developers have complained about 508
18:28:41 [AllanJ]
... 508 Update still 2 years out. not nearly finished.
18:28:59 [AllanJ]
... ISO much more robust.
18:30:00 [AllanJ]
... perhaps table for a few weeks. Action to watch what happens with ATAG and ISO.
18:30:26 [AllanJ]
... Need a specific and relevant and free standard to reference
18:30:43 [AllanJ]
... No other spec has gotten keyboard right.
18:31:48 [AllanJ]
JR: agree
18:32:07 [AllanJ]
Judy: thanks Jan for bringing up
18:32:55 [AllanJ]
JR: ATAG will point to WCAG for web-based interface, will always need desktop interface and mobile interface
18:35:10 [judy]
s/complained about 508/complained about insufficient coverage of browser-specific UI coverage in the current 508
18:36:53 [AllanJ]
Action: http://www.iso.org/iso/catalogue_detail?csnumber=30858
18:37:42 [Jan]
http://www.iso.org/iso/iso_catalogue/catalogue_ics/catalogue_detail_ics.htm?csnumber=39080
18:37:54 [AllanJ]
ISO/TS 16071:2003
18:38:02 [judy]
Judy: (had also said, above) Another major concern is that we apparently do not yet have any guarantee that the ISO spec (ISO 16701 ergonomics of human system interaction: guidance on software accessibility) will indeed become freely available; and until it does, any discussion to consider dropping certain parts of our work here would be premature
18:38:28 [Jan]
Ergonomics of human-system interaction -- Part 171: Guidance on software accessibility
18:39:34 [AllanJ]
Action: Jan to monitor ATAG development as the relate to software accessibility
18:39:35 [judy]
Judy: Also I had raised a concern that pointing for conformance purposes to non-specific guidance elsewhere may be insufficient; it should be specific.
18:39:40 [Jan]
Action: JR monitor whether ISO9241-171:2008 will be released freely
18:40:01 [Jan]
Scribe: Jan
18:40:41 [Jan]
Topic: Proposal for placement of keyboard items
18:40:57 [Jan]
JA: My proposal at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JulSep/0050.html
18:41:13 [Jan]
JA: Simon's comments: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JulSep/0059.html
18:42:05 [Jan]
JA: Proposing new guideline 3.11.7
18:42:45 [AllanJ]
JR: There is a problem, difficult concept for people to understand
18:44:08 [Jan]
JB: To begin with I don't think things should be written parenthetically
18:45:50 [Jan]
JB: Not right - we were talking about mode
18:46:02 [Jan]
JB: We would not be indicating how to do it
18:46:28 [Jan]
AC: Is this referring to Ctrl+S and S underlined
18:46:32 [Jan]
JA: Yes
18:47:17 [AllanJ]
rewrite without parentheticals: Any currently visible UI operable controls that have direct UI keyboard commands have their keyboard commands visually displayed in context
18:47:33 [Jan]
AC: Very different things...first is way to quickly do task without menu and other second provides way for quickly navigating menu
18:47:54 [Jan]
JB: Think a lot of times those overlap
18:48:11 [Jan]
JB: Also looking at 2...are these so different
18:48:29 [Jan]
AC: See reason for seperating them...especially with accelerator keys
18:49:07 [Jan]
AC: When two keys have same accelerator, pressing key bounces between them...in dialog only one works
18:49:21 [Jan]
AC: Two totally different functions
18:49:46 [AllanJ]
JR: agree,
18:51:02 [AllanJ]
... the reason is begins with "Any currently visible UI operable controls" is because you can't provide direct UI commands because they are not visible
18:51:08 [Jan]
SH: Is this like 3.6.1?
18:51:25 [Jan]
SH: Seems like we are trying to highlight
18:52:00 [Jan]
JR: Yes it's highlighting plus letting user know what keystrokes are
18:52:21 [AllanJ]
in UAAG20 http://www.w3.org/TR/UAAG20/
18:52:46 [Jan]
3.6.1 Highlighted items: The user has the option to highlight the following classes of information: @@10.2 in UAAG10@@
18:52:48 [Jan]
(a) selection,
18:52:49 [Jan]
(b) content focus,
18:52:51 [Jan]
(c) recognized enabled elements, and
18:52:53 [Jan]
(d) recently visited links.@@Remove since so common?@@
18:53:01 [Jan]
SH: This highlights your options...
18:53:21 [Jan]
JB: Do we define highlight?
18:53:30 [Jan]
JA: Defined
18:53:38 [AllanJ]
In this document, "to highlight" means to emphasize through the user interface. For example, user agents highlight which content is selected or focused. Graphical highlight mechanisms include dotted boxes, underlining, and reverse video. Synthesized speech highlight mechanisms include alterations of voice pitch and volume ("speech prosody").
18:54:35 [Jan]
JR: Warning about 3.6.1 is in content, the req. in question is chrome and uses OS
18:54:54 [Jan]
SH: Think highlighting works...doesn't require it to be visual
18:55:11 [Jan]
AC: Confusion...some people call selection highlighting
18:55:24 [Jan]
JB: Prob we would be getting into confusions
18:55:58 [Jan]
JA: So I'm hearing not 3.11, not 3.6
18:56:11 [Jan]
JB: Have we determined for sure
18:56:31 [Jan]
JB: Can see what you're saying, but 3.6 feels right
18:57:04 [Jan]
oops that was SH
18:57:21 [Jan]
JA: Originally thought it didn't fit in 4...but maybe it does
18:57:48 [Jan]
JA: Perceivable vs operable
18:58:17 [Jan]
JB: "Guideline 4.1 Ensure full keyboard access" is obvious
18:58:26 [Jan]
SH: Pref 3.6
18:58:49 [Jan]
SH: Seems to me that we want to let people know they can make selection
18:59:02 [Jan]
JA: Think back to using the Mac
18:59:15 [Jan]
JA: Prob wasn't use it was perception
18:59:33 [Jan]
JB: Was a combination of several things...
19:00:16 [Jan]
JB: Came down to I couldn't use keyboard
19:00:36 [Jan]
JB: Phrasing of perceivable...
19:00:49 [Jan]
Make sure the user interface perceivable
19:01:26 [AllanJ]
Judy: this bridges both perceivable and operable.
19:02:00 [AllanJ]
JR: tried to make it thematic - keyboard operation (you must perceive and operate)
19:02:03 [Jan]
JR: Perceivalbe operabl hard to cut apart - Keyboard is thematic
19:02:28 [Jan]
JB: Want things together because how it affects developers getting lost
19:03:15 [Jan]
SH: I'm not UI developer directly but would suggest we need to bring enough stuff to perceivable to have a keyboard section in perceivable
19:03:44 [Jan]
JB: If we look at other things under 3....
19:04:27 [Jan]
JB: Sorry but this keyboard requirement doesn't seem to fit...better in 4
19:05:18 [Jan]
JB: Straw poll...
19:05:29 [Jan]
SH: OK either way but pref perceivable
19:05:59 [Jan]
AC: Can easily go into either
19:06:30 [Jan]
JR: Can see SH's point but would pref it stay in 4 for now
19:06:39 [Jan]
JA: Really makes sense for it to be in 4
19:07:17 [Jan]
SH: OK with that if we can get the terminology polished up
19:07:35 [Jan]
SH: terminology->phraseoology
19:08:13 [Jan]
Resolve: Keep req. on showing shortcuts in 4.1
19:09:05 [Jan]
Topic: User configuration has an option to display keyboard shortcuts for all visible controls
19:11:24 [Jan]
JR: How is this diff from the first...is this content and that was chrome?
19:11:31 [Jan]
AC: Sounds like content
19:12:14 [Jan]
AC: Maybe could apply to both chrome and content
19:12:40 [Jan]
AC: What's usually missing now iare theshortcuts in web apps
19:12:52 [Jan]
AC: Would would an option to display mean?
19:13:53 [AllanJ]
JR: when I wrote this. It does not describe how things work now. It does not depend on tooltips.
19:14:05 [AllanJ]
... there are no conventions for this at the momement
19:15:24 [Jan]
AC: Important point to get this in
19:18:15 [Jan]
AC: Would it be ok if tool/balloon tips came up as user tabbed around theui
19:18:46 [Jan]
AC: Other way is what JR suggests with overlay of controls in a particular mode
19:19:13 [Jan]
JB: THink that would be incredibly distracting
19:19:28 [Jan]
JB: Sometimes other keystroke to make that go away
19:20:04 [Jan]
JB: Type of solution for some things...underlined letters in menu...
19:20:16 [Jan]
JB: Beauty of that is less dynamic etc
19:20:23 [Jan]
AC: So a separate list?
19:21:01 [Jan]
JB: This re: embedded content
19:21:14 [Jan]
AC: Would be very nice eg. on embedded media player
19:21:30 [Jan]
JB: So why can't reuse same mechanism as for chrome UI?
19:21:41 [Jan]
AC: Different mechanism
19:21:55 [Jan]
JB: Does appear as icons etc
19:22:11 [Jan]
JB: So presents problem..
19:23:13 [Jan]
AC: This is adding something brand new
19:23:18 [Jan]
JR: Excatly
19:24:04 [Jan]
JB: But we shouldn't ask something special of embedded apps
19:24:34 [Jan]
JB: So requirement should only be easily discover...
19:24:48 [Jan]
JA: I've been looking at this...
19:25:02 [Jan]
JA: In first one...UI controls need shortcuts and underlines
19:25:24 [Jan]
JA: 4. is for the content
19:25:52 [Jan]
JA: 2 is just ability to turn them off
19:26:44 [Jan]
JR: We should remove the one that is just an option
19:29:59 [AllanJ]
Judy: combine UI and content and configuration
19:30:32 [AllanJ]
JR: Everybody does UI, but content visibilty is new. should be separate
19:30:47 [AllanJ]
Judy: can live with it.
19:32:46 [Jan]
AC: Brings up example of Web app that takes ctrl commands
19:32:53 [Jan]
JA: That sounds like AJAX
19:33:34 [Jan]
JB: Hope we made progress today...let's pick up again next week
19:33:51 [Jan]
JB: THanks all
19:33:53 [AllanJ]
Action: Jallan to combine 1&2 and 2&4
19:34:46 [Zakim]
-Cantor
19:34:47 [Zakim]
-Jan
19:34:47 [Zakim]
-sharper
19:53:14 [Zakim]
-Judy
19:53:16 [Zakim]
-AllanJ
19:53:16 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()2:00PM has ended
19:53:17 [Zakim]
Attendees were Jan, +1.512.206.aaaa, sharper, AllanJ, Judy, Cantor
19:53:50 [Jan]
RRSAgent, make minutes
19:53:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/07-ua-minutes.html Jan
19:54:00 [Jan]
RRSAgent, set logs public
19:54:05 [Jan]
Zakim, bye
19:54:05 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
19:54:11 [Jan]
RRSAgent, bye
19:54:11 [RRSAgent]
I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/07-ua-actions.rdf :
19:54:11 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: http://www.iso.org/iso/catalogue_detail?csnumber=30858 [1]
19:54:11 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/07-ua-irc#T18-36-53
19:54:11 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jan to monitor ATAG development as the relate to software accessibility [2]
19:54:11 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/07-ua-irc#T18-39-34
19:54:11 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JR monitor whether ISO9241-171:2008 will be released freely [3]
19:54:11 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/07-ua-irc#T18-39-40
19:54:11 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jallan to combine 1&2 and 2&4 [4]
19:54:11 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/07-ua-irc#T19-33-53