IRC log of xhtml on 2008-08-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:43:50 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #xhtml

13:43:50 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/08/06-xhtml-irc

13:43:56 [kaz]

zakim, call kazuyuki-617

13:43:56 [Zakim]

sorry, kaz, I don't know what conference this is

13:44:10 [kaz]

zakim, this will be XHTML

13:44:10 [Zakim]

ok, kaz; I see IA_XHTML2()9:45AM scheduled to start in 1 minute

13:44:12 [kaz]

zakim, call kazuyuki-617

13:44:12 [Zakim]

ok, kaz; the call is being made

13:44:12 [Zakim]

IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has now started

13:44:14 [Zakim]

+Kazuyuki

13:44:24 [rmerric]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Aug/0004.html

13:44:54 [rmerric]

Meeting: XHTML2 WG Weekly Teleconference

13:44:56 [Zakim]

+ +04670855aaaa

13:45:13 [Roland]

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13:45:28 [Roland]

Chair: Roland

13:45:37 [Tina]

Zakim: +04670855aaaa is Tina

13:45:40 [shepazu]

Zakim, call shepazu

13:45:40 [Zakim]

ok, shepazu; the call is being made

13:45:42 [Zakim]

+Shepazu

13:46:12 [Zakim]

+Roland

13:46:34 [Roland]

rrsagent, make minutes

13:46:34 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/06-xhtml-minutes.html Roland

13:46:40 [Zakim]

+Gregory_Rosmaita

13:46:42 [Roland]

rrsagent, make log public

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alessio has joined #xhtml

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+ShaneM

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13:47:47 [Zakim]

+??P4

13:47:56 [alessio]

zakim, ??P4 is Alessio

13:47:56 [Zakim]

+Alessio; got it

13:48:14 [Steven_]

Steven_ has joined #xhtml

13:48:28 [Steven_]

zakim, who is here?

13:48:28 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Kazuyuki, +04670855aaaa, Shepazu, Roland, Gregory_Rosmaita, ShaneM, Alessio

13:48:30 [Zakim]

On IRC I see Steven_, ShaneM, alessio, Roland, RRSAgent, Zakim, kaz, oedipus, shepazu, Tina, Steven, Lachy

13:48:39 [Steven_]

zakim, dial steven-617

13:48:39 [Zakim]

ok, Steven_; the call is being made

13:48:41 [Zakim]

+Steven

13:49:51 [Steven_]

scribe: Steven

13:49:58 [Steven_]

rrsagent, make minutes

13:49:58 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/06-xhtml-minutes.html Steven_

13:50:40 [Steven_]

Roland: My regrets for the next 4 weeks

13:50:50 [Steven_]

Topic: DOM 3 Events and XML Events 2

13:51:04 [Steven_]

Roland: We want them to align

13:51:19 [Steven_]

... Doug can you update us on DOM 3 Events?

13:51:26 [cbottoml]

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13:51:40 [Steven_]

Doug: Having reviewed XML Events 2, I didn't see any incompatibilities

13:51:52 [Steven_]

... but it is good to coordinate

13:52:01 [Steven_]

... we have changed mutation events a bit

13:52:25 [Steven_]

... Mozilla are not going to implement certain mutation events

13:52:42 [Steven_]

... so there is no consensus on them

13:53:00 [oedipus]

q+ to say that he has a question to pose on behalf of the PFWG on the @order attribute as long as shepazu is here

13:53:13 [Steven_]

Roland: We have no dependencies on the mutation events, but what is the problem?

13:53:24 [Steven_]

Doug: I'm sorry, I don't have that to hand

13:54:04 [Steven_]

... but it is something that requires a significant change, and performance hit for browsers

13:54:12 [Steven_]

Roland: Are these new events?

13:54:25 [Steven_]

Doug: No, also in DOM 2, so we may be deprecating them

13:54:27 [oedipus]

q-

13:54:52 [Steven_]

... SVG Tiny has a problem with them too

13:55:01 [Steven_]

... because of performance hit

13:55:11 [Lachy]

Lachy has left #xhtml

13:55:27 [Steven_]

... so there is a challenge of finding something that has consensus

13:55:41 [Steven_]

Doug: We are also planning on defining event ordering

13:55:41 [oedipus]

q+ to say question from PFWG - "Does mixing roles and ids with targetrole and targetid for @order OK, or does it pose problems, and if so what problems?" (i am supposed to be asking this as a "babe in the woods" and not a member of XHTML2 WG

13:56:06 [Steven_]

Doug: Also changing the key identifiers

13:56:23 [Steven_]

... a better model for providing values for key identifiers

13:56:40 [Steven_]

... also an order for event firing

13:56:59 [Steven_]

... but I saw no clash iwth XML Events 2

13:57:50 [Steven_]

Steven: XML Events is just a syntactic binding to DOM Events, so it would be bad if there was a clash

13:58:06 [Steven_]

Roland: Have you dealt with the I18N problems with key events?

13:58:31 [Steven_]

Doug: We are working on it

13:58:41 [ShaneM]

q+ to discussion how this might effect the XHTML Access module

13:59:05 [Steven_]

... including the issues of shifting characters

13:59:10 [Steven_]

... to upper case

13:59:36 [Steven_]

Doug: I do have a couple of minor comments on XML Events 2; I will send them in

14:00:02 [Steven_]

Roland: We want to go to last call really soon; what is the status of DOM 3 Events?

14:00:08 [Steven_]

Doug: Q1 for CR

14:00:29 [Steven_]

... I wouldn't make a dependency on DOM 3

14:00:37 [Steven_]

Roland: Well, we want namespaced events

14:01:10 [Steven_]

Doug: The WHAT WG are trying to get me to remove namespaced events

14:01:31 [Steven_]

... but that hasn't happened

14:01:53 [Steven_]

Shane: I think it should be changed from QNames to CURIEs

14:01:57 [Steven_]

q+

14:02:21 [Steven_]

Doug: Unlikely

14:03:29 [oedipus]

SP: independent of qnames and curies - Dom3 uses event space and event name - 2 are never combined into URI as such; up to syntax, not Dom3 - would be surprised if you have to mention curies; whichever you use, they will work identically

14:03:41 [Steven_]

Shane: I disagree

14:04:09 [Steven_]

... at processing level it is a URI

14:04:38 [oedipus]

SP: never combined into single URI - always separate - qnames better solution

14:05:01 [Steven_]

Steven: But you have a namespace, and an event name; they never get combined into a URI, so QNames are a better choice if you have to use them at all

14:05:18 [Steven_]

Doug: There are a couple of non-namespaced events

14:05:35 [Steven_]

q-

14:05:54 [Steven_]

s/non-/new non-/

14:06:07 [Steven_]

Doug: We want to go to CR at latest Q1 2009

14:07:25 [Steven_]

... so where is your implementer base?

14:07:36 [Steven_]

Steven: XForms would where we expect them to come first

14:08:03 [oedipus]

SP: use case for "while" being able to delete all elements in a tree that match a certain condition

14:08:12 [Steven_]

Doug: Where is the use case for your while= in XML Events 2?

14:08:19 [oedipus]

zakim, who is making noise?

14:08:27 [Steven_]

Steven: Being able to delete all noeds that match a certain condition

14:08:30 [Zakim]

oedipus, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +04670855aaaa (13%), Alessio (94%), Shepazu (69%)

14:08:46 [Steven_]

zakim, mute alessio

14:08:46 [Zakim]

Alessio should now be muted

14:09:24 [Zakim]

+ +1.914.255.aabb

14:09:49 [Roland]

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080620/#section-listener-element

14:10:00 [Steven_]

Doug: We are trying to make the target phase more visible

14:10:35 [Steven_]

Roland: The default phase is for compatibility with the old version

14:11:17 [oedipus]

zakim, aaaa is Tina_Holcombe

14:11:17 [Zakim]

+Tina_Holcombe; got it

14:11:59 [oedipus]

zakim, Tina_Holcombe is Tina_Holmboe

14:11:59 [Zakim]

+Tina_Holmboe; got it

14:13:50 [alessio]

zakim, unmute me

14:13:50 [Zakim]

Alessio should no longer be muted

14:13:58 [Steven_]

Doug: The reasons for the handlers wasn't clear

14:14:24 [Steven_]

Steven: To allow people to be able to use something already defined wihtout having to invent it themselves (as with XML Events 1)

14:14:26 [oedipus]

XML2 Events will eventual break out into Handler, Listener, and Script module

14:14:32 [oedipus]

ack me

14:14:32 [Zakim]

oedipus, you wanted to say question from PFWG - "Does mixing roles and ids with targetrole and targetid for @order OK, or does it pose problems, and if so what problems?" (i am

14:14:35 [Zakim]

... supposed to be asking this as a "babe in the woods" and not a member of XHTML2 WG

14:15:16 [Steven_]

Gregory: About access key; is there a problem with roles and ids?

14:15:55 [Steven_]

... I think the current solution is a good one, but we want confirmation

14:16:12 [Steven_]

Doug: I don;t see where it would cause a problem

14:16:17 [Steven_]

s/;/'/

14:16:40 [Steven_]

Shane: You can only have one or the other, not both

14:16:53 [Steven_]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:16:53 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/06-xhtml-minutes.html Steven_

14:17:10 [Steven_]

Doug: Well, one is ignored if you have both

14:17:14 [Steven_]

Shane: Right

14:17:27 [ShaneM]

targetrole is ignored if both are specified.

14:17:59 [Steven_]

Gregory: Thanks, I'm glad we agree

14:19:58 [Steven_]

Greg: With @order, we want people to be able to go through primary content, and then secondary content and so on.

14:20:13 [Steven_]

Shane: And where do you start?

14:20:27 [Steven_]

Doug: Document order from the current focus

14:20:38 [Steven_]

Shane: Doesn't that clash with @order

14:20:44 [Steven_]

s/order/order?/

14:20:54 [Steven_]

Doug: I need to think about that

14:22:02 [Steven_]

... if I want to tab from my current focus,

14:22:25 [Steven_]

... then without @order then the next in document order is selected

14:22:39 [Steven_]

... with @order, then it goes to the first in the list

14:23:33 [oedipus]

SP: stateless - regardless of current state, defaults back to same?

14:23:45 [oedipus]

SP: if in a b carry on going to other bs

14:24:30 [oedipus]

SM: possible to make stateless if defined "if no item that would be selected has focus currently, start with first one in document order, otherwise find next one in navigation order

14:24:47 [Steven_]

Doug: This allows for a richer way to navigate

14:24:55 [oedipus]

DS: jump to Bs with mouse, when in there, can keyboard navigate the Bs

14:24:59 [Steven_]

... jump to the Bs and then navigate around them

14:25:26 [Steven_]

Shane: Also solves the problem of what happens with a DOM mutation

14:25:38 [Steven_]

Steven: Absolutely

14:25:45 [Steven_]

Shane: I will write this up

14:25:57 [Steven_]

... I am editing the document now

14:26:21 [Steven_]

Roland: When will you publish your next draft, and what stage will it be at?

14:26:26 [Steven_]

Doug: It will be a WD

14:26:33 [Steven_]

... in a month or so

14:26:46 [Steven_]

... we are working on SVG at the moment

14:26:57 [Steven_]

... so I don;t think I can do it this month

14:27:03 [Steven_]

s/;/'/

14:27:39 [Steven_]

... and there are still some unsolved problems

14:27:54 [Steven_]

Roland: Thanks, we will keep in touch

14:27:55 [oedipus]

thank you very much, shepazu

14:28:11 [Steven_]

Doug: One other thing

14:28:55 [Steven_]

... no, I'll send it by email

14:29:02 [Steven_]

[Doug leaves]

14:29:02 [Zakim]

- +1.914.255.aabb

14:29:08 [Zakim]

-Shepazu

14:29:18 [oedipus]

zakim, aabb is Doug_Schepers

14:29:18 [Zakim]

sorry, oedipus, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb'

14:29:33 [Steven_]

Topic: M12N

14:30:01 [Steven_]

Roland: Any news?

14:30:52 [Steven_]

Steven: I haven't scratched the surface of my email since I got back last night. I'll keep you in touch

14:31:21 [Steven_]

Topic: Access

14:31:23 [Roland_]

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14:31:30 [Steven_]

Shane: I looked at the comments

14:31:50 [Steven_]

... related to the DOM 3 Events issues

14:32:08 [oedipus]

i18n comments start at: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Aug/0006.html

14:32:28 [Steven_]

... the issue is that @key is inadequate

14:32:33 [oedipus]

key attribute inadequate: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Aug/0007.html

14:32:53 [Steven_]

... and I'm not sure that there is a right answer. We took it over from HTML4

14:32:58 [oedipus]

"The term 'access key' seems to be used to refer to the value of the key attribute in one part of this section, and to a key on a physical keyboard in other places."

14:33:20 [Steven_]

Roland: We should work on a way to deal on the problem

14:33:27 [Steven_]

s/ on / with /

14:33:35 [shepazu]

I also raised a similar point, and I think you should use the keyIdentifier

14:33:51 [Steven_]

Shane: I'm not sure there is a solution

14:34:02 [oedipus]

PF's Proposed Requirements for Access/Accesskey in HTML5: http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/AccesskeyRequirements

14:34:31 [oedipus]

SP: what do people do in japan with keyboard shortcuts? idea is use a key that matches a character

14:34:31 [Steven_]

Roland: Multiple key depressions in Japanese

14:34:47 [oedipus]

RM: keys don't generate kanji characters - part of character

14:35:12 [Steven_]

Kaz: We use ascii characters for shortcuts

14:35:46 [Steven_]

Shane: There are also some editorial comments

14:35:50 [oedipus]

"It isn't clear that this section has taken into account the potential difference between key codes and the characters that may result from a key press on a given keyboard. It seems to assume that the character on a key cap == the key code identifier == the character produced by pressing that key == the character that is the value of the key attribute." - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Aug/0008.html

14:36:29 [Steven_]

Shane: I still need to work on the policy of evolution of modules

14:37:22 [kaz]

input "nihon" -(Imput Method software converts it to)-> "日本"

14:37:49 [oedipus]

thought we agreed to 3 modules from Events: Handler, Listener, and Script

14:38:16 [Steven_]

Topic: CURIEs

14:38:33 [Steven_]

Roland: We had an email from Noah

14:38:57 [Steven_]

Steven : I see that the TAG can't respond on our timescale

14:39:34 [Steven_]

Shane: Didn't we ask for last call comments in May?

14:39:57 [Steven_]

... I think we should extend our timeline to accomodate them

14:40:05 [Steven_]

... even though we asked 5th May originally

14:40:34 [Steven_]

Shane: The TAG wasn't on our original list

14:40:50 [Steven_]

Steven: No, we didn't thinkl CURIEs had architectural ramifications

14:40:59 [Steven_]

s/thinkl/think/

14:41:08 [Steven_]

Shane: But we should wait

14:41:24 [Steven_]

Steven: Agreed

14:41:30 [alessio]

+1

14:42:20 [Steven_]

Steven: Their FtF is September, ours October, so we can accomodate them with no pain

14:42:32 [oedipus]

plus 1

14:42:41 [Steven_]

Topic: AOB

14:43:05 [Steven_]

Steven: You're away for 4 weeks, so have a good holiday

14:43:28 [oedipus]

enjoy your well-earned rest, rolland

14:43:32 [Zakim]

-ShaneM

14:43:36 [Zakim]

-Gregory_Rosmaita

14:43:38 [Zakim]

-Roland

14:43:39 [Zakim]

-Tina_Holmboe

14:43:40 [Steven_]

[ADJOURN]

14:43:40 [Zakim]

-Kazuyuki

14:43:44 [Zakim]

-Alessio

14:43:45 [Roland_]

Roland_ has left #xhtml

14:44:01 [Zakim]

-Steven

14:44:02 [Zakim]

IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has ended

14:44:04 [Zakim]

Attendees were Kazuyuki, +04670855aaaa, Shepazu, Roland, Gregory_Rosmaita, ShaneM, Alessio, Steven, +1.914.255.aabb, Tina_Holmboe

14:44:11 [Steven_]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:44:11 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/06-xhtml-minutes.html Steven_

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17:37:21 [oedipus]

rrsagent, please part

17:37:21 [RRSAgent]

I see no action items