IRC log of emotion on 2008-07-31

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:53:25 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #emotion

13:53:25 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/07/31-emotion-irc

13:53:37 [marc]

zakim, this will be INC_EMOXG

13:53:37 [Zakim]

ok, marc; I see INC_EMOXG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes

13:55:04 [marc]

agenda+ briefly review list of initial spec suggestions that have materialised

13:55:20 [marc]

agenda+ start discussing Links to the rest of the world spec suggestions

13:56:38 [Dylan]

Hi marc

13:56:47 [Dylan]

Hi Zakim

13:57:20 [marc]

:-)

13:57:48 [Zakim]

INC_EMOXG()10:00AM has now started

13:57:55 [Zakim]

+??P3

13:58:15 [Ian]

Zakim, I am +??P3

13:58:15 [Zakim]

sorry, Ian, I do not see a party named '+??P3'

13:58:16 [Zakim]

+??P4

13:58:35 [Zakim]

+ +049892892aaaa

13:58:35 [Ian]

can you hear me?

13:58:46 [marc]

zakim, I am ??P4

13:58:46 [Zakim]

+marc; got it

13:59:16 [Bjoern]

zakim, I am aaaa

13:59:16 [Zakim]

+Bjoern; got it

13:59:17 [marc]

Ian, I cannot hear you

13:59:21 [marc]

can you hear?

13:59:26 [Zakim]

+ +035321425aabb

13:59:37 [Ian]

new mic same old problems

13:59:46 [Ian]

why is this always so difficult?!

14:00:14 [marc]

can you connect via plain old phone?

14:01:11 [felix]

felix has joined #emotion

14:01:16 [marc]

zakim, who is online?

14:01:16 [Zakim]

I don't understand your question, marc.

14:01:23 [marc]

zakim, who is here?

14:01:25 [Zakim]

On the phone I see ??P3, marc, Bjoern, +035321425aabb

14:01:31 [Zakim]

On IRC I see felix, RRSAgent, Zakim, Bjoern, Ian, marc, Dylan, trackbot

14:02:05 [marc]

Hi Felix

14:02:13 [Zakim]

+Paolo_Baggia,Laura_Ricotti

14:03:17 [paolo]

paolo has joined #emotion

14:03:32 [paolo]

zakim, who is here?

14:03:32 [Zakim]

On the phone I see ??P3, marc, Bjoern, +035321425aabb, Paolo_Baggia,Laura_Ricotti

14:03:34 [Zakim]

On IRC I see paolo, felix, RRSAgent, Zakim, Bjoern, Ian, marc, Dylan, trackbot

14:03:38 [felix]

hi marc

14:03:51 [marc]

Ian, any chance to have your voice?

14:03:54 [paolo]

zakim, Paolo_Baggia,Laura_Ricotti is Paolo_Baggia,Enrico_Zovato

14:03:54 [Zakim]

+Paolo_Baggia,Enrico_Zovato; got it

14:04:03 [paolo]

zakim, who is here?

14:04:03 [Zakim]

On the phone I see ??P3, marc, Bjoern, +035321425aabb, Paolo_Baggia,Enrico_Zovato

14:04:04 [marc]

felix, can you join on the phone please?

14:04:09 [Zakim]

On IRC I see paolo, felix, RRSAgent, Zakim, Bjoern, Ian, marc, Dylan, trackbot

14:04:13 [marc]

zakim, aabb is Dylan

14:04:23 [Zakim]

+Dylan; got it

14:04:48 [paolo]

zakim, ??P3 is Ian_Wilson

14:04:53 [Zakim]

+Felix_Burkhardt

14:04:55 [Zakim]

+Ian_Wilson; got it

14:05:09 [paolo]

zakim, who is here?

14:05:11 [Ian]

can hear

14:05:12 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Ian_Wilson, marc, Bjoern, Dylan, Paolo_Baggia,Enrico_Zovato, Felix_Burkhardt

14:05:22 [Zakim]

On IRC I see paolo, felix, RRSAgent, Zakim, Bjoern, Ian, marc, Dylan, trackbot

14:05:27 [Ian]

trying now

14:05:42 [Ian]

zakim sees my phone though?

14:05:46 [Ian]

hmm

14:07:17 [marc]

Scribe: marc

14:07:22 [marc]

ScribeNick: marc

14:07:40 [marc]

next item

14:08:14 [Ian]

ok, last mic was also broken!

14:08:23 [Ian]

brand new mic now..

14:09:12 [Ian]

3rd mic!!

14:09:48 [marc]

all contributions have materialised except for Meta 1, Meta 2 and Global 0

14:09:56 [marc]

so I suggest to re-distribute these

14:10:12 [marc]

volunteers?

14:10:33 [marc]

I can do meta 1

14:10:49 [marc]

Enrico volunteers for meta 2

14:11:09 [marc]

Felix volunteers for Global 0

14:11:55 [marc]

... by 15 August

14:12:14 [marc]

next item

14:12:49 [felix]

General remarks:

14:12:59 [felix]

The main question for things that are not directly related to emotion/affect is: shall we specify them ourself or advise the use of similar xml specifications (make or buy)?

14:13:31 [felix]

arguments to use existing specifications:

14:13:47 [felix]

It is not core to Emotion, so not worth us inventing something new

14:14:06 [felix]

Many specifications exist

14:14:15 [felix]

Using a format from one of our "neighbors" will help foster closer integration of our groups / standards

14:14:31 [Ian]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-emotion/2008Jul/att-0006/00-part

14:15:56 [felix]

html is a ML to format docs in browsers [2].

14:16:19 [felix]

SMIL (Synchronized Multimedia Integration Language) smil is a markup to format streaming media shows [3].

14:16:45 [felix]

EMMA (Extensible MultiModal Annotation Markup Language) emma is a markup describe multimodal interaction [4].

14:17:53 [marc]

I suggest to look at InkML for the sampling mechanism

14:20:26 [marc]

Ian: suggests not to re-invent the wheel, but use other elements where they exist and are not specific to emotion

14:20:56 [marc]

Ian: asks how commonly used SMIL or EMMA are

14:21:20 [marc]

Paolo: describes use of EMMA with speech server for semantic recognition results for call centers etc.

14:21:47 [marc]

... but original idea was to use in multimodal environments, and only few projects currently seem to do that.

14:22:34 [marc]

Ian: asks what people think of using html:a element

14:22:57 [marc]

Felix: states that the element has too many attributes that we don't need

14:23:34 [marc]

...so suggestion by Christian Peter to reuse the names of elements/attributes from existing languages but not the actual elements/namespaces.

14:23:43 [marc]

Ian: so that becomes a third option.

14:24:27 [felix]

<emotion> <category name="pleasure"/>

14:27:34 [Bjoern]

agrees with "target" over src

14:27:38 [marc]

MArc: asks if we can use "target" rather than "src" because it seems to make more sense

14:28:00 [marc]

Paolo: if we reuse the element, we should also reuse the attribute names

14:28:20 [marc]

... if we invent our own element, then we are free to choose names

14:28:41 [Ian]

i like URI

14:28:48 [Ian]

yeah why?

14:28:58 [marc]

... in SSML they had "audio", now switch to "media", and the attribute can be called either "src" or "uri"

14:29:02 [marc]

Marc: likes "uri"

14:29:08 [Dylan01]

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14:29:23 [marc]

Ian: is "uri" maybe a protected keyword? it seems odd that no-one uses that.

14:29:26 [Bjoern]

Bjoern does not consider URI intuitive...

14:30:10 [devans6]

devans6 has joined #emotion

14:30:40 [marc]

Ian: it seems we like Christian's idea

14:30:53 [Dylan01]

Dylan01 has joined #emotion

14:30:53 [marc]

Björn: it seems we want to re-use things but not completely stick to them.

14:32:03 [marc]

So we could use this as a guideline for the detailed discussion: being inspired by existing specs but only use what we really need.

14:33:11 [marc]

Why do we need the mime type?

14:33:35 [marc]

Paolo: it brings us the type of data that the URI points to

14:33:49 [marc]

Felix: it will be very important for automatic processing, and everybody now has it

14:34:07 [marc]

maybe that's true

14:34:35 [marc]

agrees it adds value, as long as it stays optional

14:34:39 [marc]

Felix agrees

14:35:08 [marc]

Ian: that brings up an important point: which things are mandatory and which are optional.

14:35:53 [marc]

last time we tried this (with the HUMAINE EARL) we ended up having everything optional.

14:36:08 [marc]

Ian: so every tag should have at least one mandatory attribute.

14:36:32 [Bjoern]

we certainly have to leave several items optional, non-the-less...

14:37:39 [marc]

So felix and ian can work out a concrete example on that basis.

14:37:52 [marc]

Can we move on to Links 2?

14:38:00 [marc]

Felix presents.

14:38:28 [marc]

This also covers Core 8 "Emotion timing".

14:39:15 [marc]

Felix: again, we should take the best of EMMA and SMIL that is useful for us, but not take everything.

14:40:42 [felix]

<utterance id="utt1" emma:start="1231314123"/>

14:40:56 [felix]

<nounPhrase id="np1" emma:start="1231316123" emma:duration="3s"/>

14:41:11 [felix]

<emoml:emotion emma:start="2s" emma:duration="5s">

14:41:25 [felix]

<emoml:category set="everyday" name="pleasure"/>

14:41:33 [felix]

<emoml:start emma:time-ref-uri="#utt1"

14:41:46 [felix]

emma:time-ref-anchor-point="start"

14:41:54 [felix]

emma:offset-to-start="2s" />

14:42:50 [felix]

<emoml:end emma:time-ref-uri="#np1"

14:43:00 [felix]

emma:time-ref-anchor-point="end"

14:43:07 [felix]

emma:offset-to-start="0" />

14:43:14 [felix]

</emoml:emotion>

14:43:54 [Bjoern]

also prefers intuitive dates.

14:44:38 [marc]

I find absolute time in milliseconds since 1 Jan 1970 unintuitive

14:44:49 [marc]

... definitely I would like to avoid mixing these with human-readable times.

14:45:10 [marc]

Enrico: agrees

14:45:16 [Zakim]

-Felix_Burkhardt

14:45:18 [marc]

Felix: couldn't we just leave that to the user

14:45:56 [Zakim]

+Felix_Burkhardt

14:46:02 [marc]

Ian: my feeling is we do not need to refer to dates

14:46:15 [marc]

... but it shoudl be fine to tie our annotation to a zero-point

14:46:43 [marc]

... so we need only relative times, not absolute times.

14:47:06 [marc]

Ian: also, I think we shouldn't use "30s" etc., because it is not machine-readable.

14:47:44 [Bjoern]

thinks that absolute times might make sense for us in a surveillance application?

14:47:51 [marc]

Paolo: in EMMA, there are both kinds of timing, absolute and relative

14:48:34 [marc]

... but in the end, having absolute timing was not actually useful for emma.

14:48:55 [Ian]

http://www.w3.org/TR/SMIL3/smil-timing.html#Timing-ClockValueSyntax

14:49:07 [Ian]

50:00:10.25 = 50 hours, 10 seconds and 250 milliseconds

14:50:10 [marc]

Felix: I don't see the need to force our users into a specific way of describing time

14:50:18 [marc]

... it is not relevant for emotion

14:50:58 [marc]

Marc: this is an example of a very general point: interoperability.

14:51:40 [marc]

Dylan: for what I can see, we are fine with relative time, e.g. since the start of a video

14:52:16 [Bjoern]

Bjoern sees applications for absolute time: broad scale media retrieval, surveillance, ...

14:52:42 [marc]

Felix: emotional diary would need absolute time

14:52:49 [marc]

Dylan: disagrees

14:54:42 [marc]

The question to me is, how complicated do we want to make this?

14:54:59 [marc]

We see with EMMA how complicated it becomes when we want to make it powerful.

14:55:07 [marc]

Felix: time is running up

14:55:17 [marc]

Ian: let's continue discussing via the mailing list.

14:55:55 [marc]

Links 3: semantics of links

14:55:58 [marc]

Ian presents.

14:56:27 [marc]

Ian: felix made the point that this is similar to our discussion on categories.

14:57:25 [marc]

Ian: we may have too many custom sets if we allow people to bring in their own categories of semantics of links.

14:58:26 [marc]

... I would suggest to distinguish clearly between the actual link and its semantics.

14:58:36 [marc]

... they are conceptually distinct.

15:01:52 [Zakim]

-Paolo_Baggia,Enrico_Zovato

15:03:20 [marc]

We need to think about the relation between the three requirements (can we have a time wihtout a link, etc.)

15:03:55 [marc]

Ian: in a concrete example, which attributes are optional, which are mandatory, what depends on what etc.

15:04:48 [marc]

Felix: concrete examples will be more complex

15:04:58 [marc]

Where should this be discussed?

15:05:26 [marc]

Felix: let's have this in the public list, this is the heart of the matter.

15:05:59 [Bjoern]

agrees

15:07:44 [marc]

Björn: suggests the f2f in Cannes is the time to discuss details,

15:07:53 [marc]

... lets try to raise all issues by then.

15:08:21 [marc]

Let's continue by email.

15:08:22 [felix]

good bye

15:08:22 [Zakim]

-Dylan

15:08:24 [Zakim]

-Bjoern

15:08:26 [Zakim]

-Ian_Wilson

15:08:27 [Bjoern]

bye

15:08:29 [Zakim]

-Felix_Burkhardt

15:08:32 [Dylan01]

quit

15:08:35 [Dylan01]

logout

15:08:40 [Zakim]

-marc

15:08:42 [Zakim]

INC_EMOXG()10:00AM has ended

15:08:43 [Zakim]

Attendees were +049892892aaaa, marc, Bjoern, +035321425aabb, Paolo_Baggia,Enrico_Zovato, Dylan, Felix_Burkhardt, Ian_Wilson

15:08:58 [marc]

Chair: Marc, Felix, Ian (changing)

15:09:17 [marc]

Meeting: working meeting on EmotionML spec

15:10:04 [marc]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-emotion/2008Jul/0007.html

15:10:58 [marc]

Present: Dylan, Ian, Bjoern, Paolo, Enrico, Felix, Marc

15:11:07 [marc]

Regrets: Andy, Jianhua

15:11:38 [marc]

ACTION: Marc to specify Meta 1 - due 15 August

15:11:39 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-28 - specify Meta 1 [on Marc Schröder - due 2008-08-15].

15:11:49 [marc]

ACTION: Enrico to specify Meta 2 - due 15 August

15:11:52 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-29 - specify Meta 2 [on Enrico Zovato - due 2008-08-15].

15:12:10 [marc]

ACTION: Felix to specify Global 0 - due 15 August

15:12:10 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-30 - specify Global 0 [on Felix Burkhardt - due 2008-08-15].

15:12:24 [marc]

rrsagent, make logs public

15:12:30 [marc]

rrsagent, draft minutes

15:12:30 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/31-emotion-minutes.html marc

15:12:57 [marc]

rrsagent, bye

15:12:57 [RRSAgent]

I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/31-emotion-actions.rdf :

15:12:57 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Marc to specify Meta 1 - due 15 August [1]

15:12:57 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/31-emotion-irc#T15-11-38

15:12:57 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Enrico to specify Meta 2 - due 15 August [2]

15:12:57 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/31-emotion-irc#T15-11-49

15:12:57 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Felix to specify Global 0 - due 15 August [3]

15:12:57 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/31-emotion-irc#T15-12-10

15:13:01 [marc]

zakim, bye

15:13:01 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #emotion