17:34:02 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ua
17:34:02 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-ua-irc
17:34:21 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #ua
17:36:15 <sharper> chair: Judy Brewer & Jim Allan
17:36:34 <sharper> scribe Simon Harper
17:36:57 <sharper> scribe: Simon Harper
17:38:01 <sharper> agenda:  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JulSep/0046.html
17:38:33 <sharper> ScribeNick: sharper
17:39:01 <sharper> meeting: User Agent Teleconference for 24 July 2008
17:39:17 <jeanne> jeanne has joined #ua
17:42:23 <AllanJ> AllanJ has joined #ua
17:46:15 <sharper> agenda+ Regrets, agenda requests, comments?
17:46:29 <sharper> agenda+ Participant schedule for remainder of July, August
17:46:41 <sharper> agenda+ Schedule for Publication of next draft (and related Charter issues)
17:46:58 <sharper> agenda+ Keyboarding refocus
17:47:35 <sharper> zakim, save agenda
17:47:41 <Zakim> ok, sharper, the agenda has been written to http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-ua-agenda.rdf
17:48:13 <sharper> agenda?
17:55:18 <sharper> present: James Allan, Simon Harper, Jeanne Spellman
17:58:00 <jeanne> zakim, code?
17:58:00 <Zakim> sorry, jeanne, I don't know what conference this is
17:58:16 <jeanne> zakim, this is really WAI-UA
17:58:16 <Zakim> sorry, jeanne, I do not see a conference named 'really WAI-UA' in progress or scheduled at this time
17:58:28 <jeanne> zakim, this is WAI_UA
17:58:28 <Zakim> ok, jeanne; that matches WAI_UAWG()2:00PM
17:58:35 <Zakim> +??P4
17:58:38 <jeanne> zakim, code?
17:58:38 <Zakim> the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jeanne
17:59:02 <KFord> KFord has joined #ua
17:59:06 <Zakim> +Jeanne
17:59:46 <sharper> present+ Kelly Ford
17:59:49 <jeanne> zakim, ??P4 is really Kelly
17:59:49 <Zakim> +Kelly; got it
18:00:05 <jeanne> zakim, who is here?
18:00:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Microsoft], Kelly, Jeanne
18:00:05 <Judy> Judy has joined #ua
18:00:06 <Zakim> On IRC I see KFord, AllanJ, jeanne, Zakim, RRSAgent, sharper
18:00:09 <Judy> zakim, code?
18:00:09 <Zakim> the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Judy
18:00:28 <jeanne> zakim, kelly is really sharper
18:00:28 <Zakim> +sharper; got it
18:00:28 <sharper> present+ Judy Brewer
18:00:29 <Zakim> +Judy
18:00:43 <Zakim> +Jim_Allan
18:00:45 <jeanne> zakim, [Microsoft] is kelly
18:00:45 <Zakim> +kelly; got it
18:01:34 <jeanne> zakim, who is here?
18:01:34 <Zakim> On the phone I see kelly, sharper, Jeanne, Judy, Jim_Allan
18:01:36 <Zakim> On IRC I see Judy, KFord, AllanJ, jeanne, Zakim, RRSAgent, sharper
18:01:51 <Zakim> +Cantor
18:02:05 <jeanne> zakim, sharper is really Simon
18:02:05 <Zakim> +Simon; got it
18:03:50 <sharper> present+ Alan Cantor
18:05:22 <sharper> regrets: Mark Hakkinen, Gregory Rosmaita
18:05:32 <sharper> agenda?
18:06:15 <AllanJ> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/UAWG20080723/results
18:09:09 <sharper> regrets+  Jan Richards
18:09:36 <sharper> close agendum 1
18:10:29 <sharper> JB: Meetings to continue through July and August 2008
18:10:55 <Alan> Alan has joined #ua
18:11:05 <Alan> Hello...
18:11:09 <sharper> JB: Results available at http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/UAWG20080723/results
18:11:20 <sharper> close agendum 2
18:11:44 <sharper> JB: How close to Heartbeat 1
18:12:00 <sharper> JB: Towards end of August 2008
18:12:46 <Judy> action: jb check on the pending question about timing of next publication vs timing of charter review for rechartering obligation
18:13:41 <sharper> JA: W3C Process - WG must put a new working draft out every 3 months to make sure the group is still working - means not working in the dark
18:13:58 <sharper> JA: first Draft at CSUN in March 2008
18:14:32 <sharper> JB: Plan for the end of August for the next draft.
18:16:01 <sharper> close agendum 3
18:16:55 <sharper> RESOLVED: Group aims for the end of August to publish next draft.
18:17:44 <AllanJ> http://www.tsbvi.edu/technology/uawg/thrashing.htm
18:18:05 <sharper> JA: Did everyone see http://www.tsbvi.edu/technology/uawg/thrashing.htm
18:20:03 <sharper> JS: Listed principles and success criteria, went through and refined them and assigned a level now a much more focused list. Final results then split into levels. Then we have a list of everything removed  (and more).
18:20:53 <sharper> JA: Some of the removed ones (say 3rd) - have target destinations (just a feeling) - no specific place to drop it in.
18:21:06 <sharper> JS:  Concerned these may be lost.
18:21:48 <sharper> ACTION: JA: Place these possible lost items into the 'correct' locations.
18:25:04 <AllanJ> http://www.w3.org/tr/uaag20
18:26:51 <sharper> JB: Any of the items flagged with 'SHOULD' need to be in a new list / location.
18:27:35 <sharper> Moving through Guideline 4.1 Ensure full keyboard access
18:27:58 <sharper> JA: Sequential keyboard commands (tab, arrow, etc.) can be used to navigate between every UI operable control and interactive element in the rendered content. Level A 
18:27:58 <sharper> NOTE: These follow conventions, see 1.1
18:28:56 <sharper> JA: Like hitting alt and then arrow keys to move through
18:29:44 <sharper> JB: Maybe good as a test of these to read it out and see if there are any questions - may miss understanding, if concentrating on interpretation.
18:30:34 <sharper> AC: Question - did we agree keyboard commands was a code-word / short hand for interaction by keyboard. 
18:30:45 <sharper> JS: I think so - do you have concerns.
18:31:08 <sharper> AC: possible - lets wait - may need a small change later.
18:31:28 <sharper> AC: Doesn't see tab etc as a command as opposed to a keypress
18:31:32 <sharper> JS: Agree
18:31:36 <sharper> JB: Agree
18:32:31 <sharper> KF: OK to replace terminology 
18:32:42 <sharper> ALL: Good change.
18:33:41 <sharper> JB UI better than chrome but what is 'UI operable control and interactive element'
18:34:23 <sharper> JA: Phrase-ology to indicate they must be operable - no tabbing through greyed out items on a menu.
18:35:40 <sharper> AC: Windows menus now - can navigate to a greyed out item - is a good thing as the menu isn't growing and shortening in length. Maintains consistent behaviour - suggest 'every control' - not operable control
18:35:48 <sharper> JB: Very different things
18:36:24 <sharper> JA: Need to keep software and content separate.
18:36:44 <sharper> JA: Lets agree on AC point and remove operable - objects?
18:37:48 <sharper> KF: Default behaviour for inactive controls can't tab to them always - menus you can - dialogues you can't. 
18:39:26 <sharper> JB: Is one way to look at this - this is a level A requirement - identify it as every operable control - at this level, does that help?
18:41:08 <sharper> KF: Akin to the philosophy used on Tuesday. Add a second one for AA to remove the operable - also want to follow OS conventions - Advocate leaving it as is, if we want to tab to all make this a level 2 option?
18:42:12 <sharper> AC: struggling with this...
18:43:45 <AllanJ> SH: say: unless overridden by operating system convetion
18:44:30 <sharper> KF: Gives an out, by adding confusion.
18:45:24 <sharper> JA: OK for changes including AC changes wording just 'Key presses'
18:46:37 <AllanJ> Key presses (tab, arrow, etc.) can be used to navigate between every UI operable control, and interactive element in the rendered content.
18:47:12 <jeanne> Key presses (tab, arrow, etc.) can be used to navigate between every UI operable control, and between every interactive element in the rendered content.
18:48:01 <sharper> JB: Objections... None.
18:48:02 <sharper> Caret browse and select can be used to navigate between characters in rendered text content (incremental - character, word, line, element, all). 
18:50:39 <sharper> AC: What is it? Allows keyboard navigation to all content that you a browsing.
18:51:08 <sharper> A Possible Definition:
18:51:29 <sharper> The term caret is used in graphical user interface terminology where it means a text insertion point indicator, frequently represented by a blinking vertical bar. In this context, it may be used interchangeably with the word cursor, although the latter term is often reserved for a mouse pointer.
18:52:25 <sharper> JS: Any text in the rendered context...
18:52:55 <sharper> AC refinement - break into 2: navigation and select?
18:53:55 <jeanne> Any text in the rendered content can be navigated and/or selected using the keyboard. 
18:56:14 <sharper> AC: Any text or picture:
18:56:39 <sharper> JS: Any element? Object?
18:56:57 <sharper> JA: Some elements could be a problem - re flash
18:57:53 <jeanne> Text in the rendered content can be navigated and/or selected using the keyboard. 
18:58:12 <sharper> KF: That is not beyond user agents control.
19:00:31 <sharper> JB: does this gives us the meaning we think it does
19:01:39 <sharper> AC: need some generic phrase to capture this
19:02:26 <AllanJ> SH: don't we really mean CUT/PASTE
19:04:16 <AllanJ> SH: replace TEXT with RENDERED CONTENT
19:04:56 <AllanJ> JS: text is too important., Rendered content does't mean character, etc.
19:05:19 <AllanJ> SH: put the parenthetical back in (incremental ...)
19:05:32 <jeanne> Rendered content (character, word, line, image, element, all) can be navigated and/or selected using the keyboard. 
19:06:48 <jeanne> Rendered content (e.g.character, word, line, paragraph, image, element, all) can be navigated and/or selected using the keyboard. 
19:08:11 <sharper> KF: Too complicated, paragraph selection is above and beyond - what you want is to select as implemented in the OS - see 1.1
19:08:26 <sharper> JA: Do we really need to say this on everyone?
19:08:36 <jeanne> Rendered content (e.g.character, word, line, paragraph, image, element, all) can be navigated and/or selected using the keyboard. See 1.1
19:09:56 <sharper> JB: should it be see guideline 1.1 or a full phrase re OS conventions?
19:10:01 <sharper> JS: last
19:10:23 <sharper> KF: none - let's not repeat ourselves.
19:11:01 <sharper> KF: should say at the beginning (in one spot) which?
19:11:20 <jeanne> Rendered content (e.g.character, word, line, paragraph, image, element, all) can be navigated and/or selected using the keyboard consistent with operating system conventions. 
19:11:46 <jeanne> Rendered content (e.g.character, word, line, paragraph, image, element, all) can be navigated and/or selected using the keyboard (consistent with operating system conventions). 
19:12:48 <sharper> JB:  Tend to want to move on right now - 
19:13:09 <jeanne> Rendered content (e.g.  by character, word, line, paragraph, image, element, all) can be navigated and/or selected using the keyboard (consistent with operating system conventions). 
19:13:52 <sharper> ACTION: KFord Clarify - Rendered content (e.g.  by character, word, line, paragraph, image, element, all) can be navigated and/or selected using the keyboard (consistent with operating system conventions). 
19:14:16 <sharper> No keyboard trap. The user agent provides at least one hot key to restore keyboard focus to a known location. 
19:15:56 <sharper> AC: known location - ambiguous - if long page, if only way to restore focus is (alt+D) could be a problem.
19:17:07 <sharper> JB: Other provisions are sentences to introduce the point - should be consistent - frame the checkpoint - shorthand to the group - not suitable for general.
19:17:32 <sharper> JA: remove No keyboard trap is OK?
19:17:45 <sharper> JB: Still not right?
19:18:11 <sharper> JA: Any developers will understand keyboard trap?
19:18:16 <sharper> KF: No
19:18:37 <sharper> KF: Do we need to get this down to letter perfect level?
19:18:40 <sharper> JB: no
19:19:02 <sharper> JB: checking inadvertant interpretations - not letter perfect
19:19:19 <sharper> JA: Issue Kelly?
19:19:24 <sharper> KF: No
19:19:50 <sharper> JB: looks sloppy compared to others 
19:19:56 <sharper> AC: agree
19:20:26 <sharper> JA: Anyone does not know?
19:21:01 <jeanne> The user agent provides at least one keyboard command to restore keyboard focus to a default location. 
19:22:12 <sharper> JA: Escape is critical
19:22:52 <jeanne> The user agent provides at least one prominent keyboard command (e.g. escape key) to move keyboard focus to a default location. 
19:23:05 <sharper> JB: not obscure hot key - what about escape?
19:24:26 <sharper> ACTION: Allanj Clarify- The user agent provides at least one prominent keyboard command (e.g. escape key) to move keyboard focus to a default location. 
19:24:57 <sharper> KF: don't want to see escape key - not appropriate
19:25:06 <sharper> Direct keyboard commands can be used to activate the following important functions
19:25:41 <sharper> JA: the List is already mentioned elsewhere.
19:26:26 <sharper> JA: this just says you have to have a keyboard control for the list (defined elsewhere)
19:26:39 <sharper> JB: Maybe forgo the list, thoughts?
19:27:19 <sharper> AC: should we use keyboard presses as opposed to commands
19:27:37 <sharper> JA: term needed for browser control
19:27:59 <sharper> JS: would like to get away from sequential and direct
19:28:28 <sharper> AC: key-presses would get you the entire list - except maybe volume control?
19:28:43 <jeanne> Key press can be used to activate the following important functions (list) Level A 
19:28:52 <sharper> AC: lets go to 5 and return to 4 at the end of the telecon
19:28:59 <sharper> User has the option to configure the keyboard processing order (UI, extensions, recognized content (Access key, AT), unrecognized content)
19:29:53 <sharper> JB: all in () could be interpreted differently by different people - can we clarify?
19:30:05 <sharper> JB: is it intended to be a flat list?
19:30:09 <sharper> JA: yes
19:30:52 <sharper> JA: should start on 4 next week
19:31:18 <sharper> JA: thrash wording next week as opposed to section review?
19:31:50 <sharper> JA: Regarding (Remove - should be in...) items
19:32:31 <sharper> JB: address A.4 A.5 and AA.1 next week
19:33:43 <Zakim> -kelly
19:34:03 <Zakim> -Cantor
19:34:17 <Zakim> -Simon
19:34:47 <sharper> rrsagent, create minutes
19:34:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-ua-minutes.html sharper
19:35:06 <Zakim> -Judy
19:35:08 <Zakim> -Jeanne
19:35:10 <Zakim> -Jim_Allan
19:35:11 <Zakim> WAI_UAWG()2:00PM has ended
19:35:12 <Zakim> Attendees were Jeanne, Judy, Jim_Allan, kelly, Cantor, Simon
19:35:33 <sharper> zakim, please part
19:35:33 <Zakim> Zakim has left #ua
19:36:01 <sharper> RRSagent, draft minutes
19:36:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-ua-minutes.html sharper
19:36:12 <AllanJ> #cg
19:38:00 <sharper> rrsagent, set logs public
19:43:00 <sharper> rrsagent, please part
19:43:00 <RRSAgent> I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-ua-actions.rdf :
19:43:00 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jb check on the pending question about timing of next publication vs timing of charter review for rechartering obligation [1]
19:43:00 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-ua-irc#T18-12-46
19:43:00 <RRSAgent> ACTION: JA: Place these possible lost items into the 'correct' locations. [2]
19:43:00 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-ua-irc#T18-21-48
19:43:00 <RRSAgent> ACTION: KFord Clarify - Rendered content (e.g.  by character, word, line, paragraph, image, element, all) can be navigated and/or selected using the keyboard (consistent with operating system conventions).  [3]
19:43:00 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-ua-irc#T19-13-52
19:43:00 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Allanj Clarify- The user agent provides at least one prominent keyboard command (e.g. escape key) to move keyboard focus to a default location.  [4]
19:43:00 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-ua-irc#T19-24-26