IRC log of ua on 2008-07-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:34:02 [RRSAgent]

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-ua-irc

17:34:21 [Zakim]

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17:36:15 [sharper]

chair: Judy Brewer & Jim Allan

17:36:34 [sharper]

scribe Simon Harper

17:36:57 [sharper]

scribe: Simon Harper

17:38:01 [sharper]

agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JulSep/0046.html

17:38:33 [sharper]

ScribeNick: sharper

17:39:01 [sharper]

meeting: User Agent Teleconference for 24 July 2008

17:39:17 [jeanne]

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17:42:23 [AllanJ]

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17:46:15 [sharper]

agenda+ Regrets, agenda requests, comments?

17:46:29 [sharper]

agenda+ Participant schedule for remainder of July, August

17:46:41 [sharper]

agenda+ Schedule for Publication of next draft (and related Charter issues)

17:46:58 [sharper]

agenda+ Keyboarding refocus

17:47:35 [sharper]

zakim, save agenda

17:47:41 [Zakim]

ok, sharper, the agenda has been written to http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-ua-agenda.rdf

17:48:13 [sharper]

agenda?

17:55:18 [sharper]

present: James Allan, Simon Harper, Jeanne Spellman

17:58:00 [jeanne]

zakim, code?

17:58:00 [Zakim]

sorry, jeanne, I don't know what conference this is

17:58:16 [jeanne]

zakim, this is really WAI-UA

17:58:16 [Zakim]

sorry, jeanne, I do not see a conference named 'really WAI-UA' in progress or scheduled at this time

17:58:28 [jeanne]

zakim, this is WAI_UA

17:58:28 [Zakim]

ok, jeanne; that matches WAI_UAWG()2:00PM

17:58:35 [Zakim]

+??P4

17:58:38 [jeanne]

zakim, code?

17:58:38 [Zakim]

the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jeanne

17:59:02 [KFord]

KFord has joined #ua

17:59:06 [Zakim]

+Jeanne

17:59:46 [sharper]

present+ Kelly Ford

17:59:49 [jeanne]

zakim, ??P4 is really Kelly

17:59:49 [Zakim]

+Kelly; got it

18:00:05 [jeanne]

zakim, who is here?

18:00:05 [Zakim]

On the phone I see [Microsoft], Kelly, Jeanne

18:00:05 [Judy]

Judy has joined #ua

18:00:06 [Zakim]

On IRC I see KFord, AllanJ, jeanne, Zakim, RRSAgent, sharper

18:00:09 [Judy]

zakim, code?

18:00:09 [Zakim]

the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Judy

18:00:28 [jeanne]

zakim, kelly is really sharper

18:00:28 [Zakim]

+sharper; got it

18:00:28 [sharper]

present+ Judy Brewer

18:00:29 [Zakim]

+Judy

18:00:43 [Zakim]

+Jim_Allan

18:00:45 [jeanne]

zakim, [Microsoft] is kelly

18:00:45 [Zakim]

+kelly; got it

18:01:34 [jeanne]

zakim, who is here?

18:01:34 [Zakim]

On the phone I see kelly, sharper, Jeanne, Judy, Jim_Allan

18:01:36 [Zakim]

On IRC I see Judy, KFord, AllanJ, jeanne, Zakim, RRSAgent, sharper

18:01:51 [Zakim]

+Cantor

18:02:05 [jeanne]

zakim, sharper is really Simon

18:02:05 [Zakim]

+Simon; got it

18:03:50 [sharper]

present+ Alan Cantor

18:05:22 [sharper]

regrets: Mark Hakkinen, Gregory Rosmaita

18:05:32 [sharper]

agenda?

18:06:15 [AllanJ]

http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/UAWG20080723/results

18:09:09 [sharper]

regrets+ Jan Richards

18:09:36 [sharper]

close agendum 1

18:10:29 [sharper]

JB: Meetings to continue through July and August 2008

18:10:55 [Alan]

Alan has joined #ua

18:11:05 [Alan]

Hello...

18:11:09 [sharper]

JB: Results available at http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/UAWG20080723/results

18:11:20 [sharper]

close agendum 2

18:11:44 [sharper]

JB: How close to Heartbeat 1

18:12:00 [sharper]

JB: Towards end of August 2008

18:12:46 [Judy]

action: jb check on the pending question about timing of next publication vs timing of charter review for rechartering obligation

18:13:41 [sharper]

JA: W3C Process - WG must put a new working draft out every 3 months to make sure the group is still working - means not working in the dark

18:13:58 [sharper]

JA: first Draft at CSUN in March 2008

18:14:32 [sharper]

JB: Plan for the end of August for the next draft.

18:16:01 [sharper]

close agendum 3

18:16:55 [sharper]

RESOLVED: Group aims for the end of August to publish next draft.

18:17:44 [AllanJ]

http://www.tsbvi.edu/technology/uawg/thrashing.htm

18:18:05 [sharper]

JA: Did everyone see http://www.tsbvi.edu/technology/uawg/thrashing.htm

18:20:03 [sharper]

JS: Listed principles and success criteria, went through and refined them and assigned a level now a much more focused list. Final results then split into levels. Then we have a list of everything removed (and more).

18:20:53 [sharper]

JA: Some of the removed ones (say 3rd) - have target destinations (just a feeling) - no specific place to drop it in.

18:21:06 [sharper]

JS: Concerned these may be lost.

18:21:48 [sharper]

ACTION: JA: Place these possible lost items into the 'correct' locations.

18:25:04 [AllanJ]

http://www.w3.org/tr/uaag20

18:26:51 [sharper]

JB: Any of the items flagged with 'SHOULD' need to be in a new list / location.

18:27:35 [sharper]

Moving through Guideline 4.1 Ensure full keyboard access

18:27:58 [sharper]

JA: Sequential keyboard commands (tab, arrow, etc.) can be used to navigate between every UI operable control and interactive element in the rendered content. Level A

18:27:58 [sharper]

NOTE: These follow conventions, see 1.1

18:28:56 [sharper]

JA: Like hitting alt and then arrow keys to move through

18:29:44 [sharper]

JB: Maybe good as a test of these to read it out and see if there are any questions - may miss understanding, if concentrating on interpretation.

18:30:34 [sharper]

AC: Question - did we agree keyboard commands was a code-word / short hand for interaction by keyboard.

18:30:45 [sharper]

JS: I think so - do you have concerns.

18:31:08 [sharper]

AC: possible - lets wait - may need a small change later.

18:31:28 [sharper]

AC: Doesn't see tab etc as a command as opposed to a keypress

18:31:32 [sharper]

JS: Agree

18:31:36 [sharper]

JB: Agree

18:32:31 [sharper]

KF: OK to replace terminology

18:32:42 [sharper]

ALL: Good change.

18:33:41 [sharper]

JB UI better than chrome but what is 'UI operable control and interactive element'

18:34:23 [sharper]

JA: Phrase-ology to indicate they must be operable - no tabbing through greyed out items on a menu.

18:35:40 [sharper]

AC: Windows menus now - can navigate to a greyed out item - is a good thing as the menu isn't growing and shortening in length. Maintains consistent behaviour - suggest 'every control' - not operable control

18:35:48 [sharper]

JB: Very different things

18:36:24 [sharper]

JA: Need to keep software and content separate.

18:36:44 [sharper]

JA: Lets agree on AC point and remove operable - objects?

18:37:48 [sharper]

KF: Default behaviour for inactive controls can't tab to them always - menus you can - dialogues you can't.

18:39:26 [sharper]

JB: Is one way to look at this - this is a level A requirement - identify it as every operable control - at this level, does that help?

18:41:08 [sharper]

KF: Akin to the philosophy used on Tuesday. Add a second one for AA to remove the operable - also want to follow OS conventions - Advocate leaving it as is, if we want to tab to all make this a level 2 option?

18:42:12 [sharper]

AC: struggling with this...

18:43:45 [AllanJ]

SH: say: unless overridden by operating system convetion

18:44:30 [sharper]

KF: Gives an out, by adding confusion.

18:45:24 [sharper]

JA: OK for changes including AC changes wording just 'Key presses'

18:46:37 [AllanJ]

Key presses (tab, arrow, etc.) can be used to navigate between every UI operable control, and interactive element in the rendered content.

18:47:12 [jeanne]

Key presses (tab, arrow, etc.) can be used to navigate between every UI operable control, and between every interactive element in the rendered content.

18:48:01 [sharper]

JB: Objections... None.

18:48:02 [sharper]

Caret browse and select can be used to navigate between characters in rendered text content (incremental - character, word, line, element, all).

18:50:39 [sharper]

AC: What is it? Allows keyboard navigation to all content that you a browsing.

18:51:08 [sharper]

A Possible Definition:

18:51:29 [sharper]

The term caret is used in graphical user interface terminology where it means a text insertion point indicator, frequently represented by a blinking vertical bar. In this context, it may be used interchangeably with the word cursor, although the latter term is often reserved for a mouse pointer.

18:52:25 [sharper]

JS: Any text in the rendered context...

18:52:55 [sharper]

AC refinement - break into 2: navigation and select?

18:53:55 [jeanne]

Any text in the rendered content can be navigated and/or selected using the keyboard.

18:56:14 [sharper]

AC: Any text or picture:

18:56:39 [sharper]

JS: Any element? Object?

18:56:57 [sharper]

JA: Some elements could be a problem - re flash

18:57:53 [jeanne]

Text in the rendered content can be navigated and/or selected using the keyboard.

18:58:12 [sharper]

KF: That is not beyond user agents control.

19:00:31 [sharper]

JB: does this gives us the meaning we think it does

19:01:39 [sharper]

AC: need some generic phrase to capture this

19:02:26 [AllanJ]

SH: don't we really mean CUT/PASTE

19:04:16 [AllanJ]

SH: replace TEXT with RENDERED CONTENT

19:04:56 [AllanJ]

JS: text is too important., Rendered content does't mean character, etc.

19:05:19 [AllanJ]

SH: put the parenthetical back in (incremental ...)

19:05:32 [jeanne]

Rendered content (character, word, line, image, element, all) can be navigated and/or selected using the keyboard.

19:06:48 [jeanne]

Rendered content (e.g.character, word, line, paragraph, image, element, all) can be navigated and/or selected using the keyboard.

19:08:11 [sharper]

KF: Too complicated, paragraph selection is above and beyond - what you want is to select as implemented in the OS - see 1.1

19:08:26 [sharper]

JA: Do we really need to say this on everyone?

19:08:36 [jeanne]

Rendered content (e.g.character, word, line, paragraph, image, element, all) can be navigated and/or selected using the keyboard. See 1.1

19:09:56 [sharper]

JB: should it be see guideline 1.1 or a full phrase re OS conventions?

19:10:01 [sharper]

JS: last

19:10:23 [sharper]

KF: none - let's not repeat ourselves.

19:11:01 [sharper]

KF: should say at the beginning (in one spot) which?

19:11:20 [jeanne]

Rendered content (e.g.character, word, line, paragraph, image, element, all) can be navigated and/or selected using the keyboard consistent with operating system conventions.

19:11:46 [jeanne]

Rendered content (e.g.character, word, line, paragraph, image, element, all) can be navigated and/or selected using the keyboard (consistent with operating system conventions).

19:12:48 [sharper]

JB: Tend to want to move on right now -

19:13:09 [jeanne]

Rendered content (e.g. by character, word, line, paragraph, image, element, all) can be navigated and/or selected using the keyboard (consistent with operating system conventions).

19:13:52 [sharper]

ACTION: KFord Clarify - Rendered content (e.g. by character, word, line, paragraph, image, element, all) can be navigated and/or selected using the keyboard (consistent with operating system conventions).

19:14:16 [sharper]

No keyboard trap. The user agent provides at least one hot key to restore keyboard focus to a known location.

19:15:56 [sharper]

AC: known location - ambiguous - if long page, if only way to restore focus is (alt+D) could be a problem.

19:17:07 [sharper]

JB: Other provisions are sentences to introduce the point - should be consistent - frame the checkpoint - shorthand to the group - not suitable for general.

19:17:32 [sharper]

JA: remove No keyboard trap is OK?

19:17:45 [sharper]

JB: Still not right?

19:18:11 [sharper]

JA: Any developers will understand keyboard trap?

19:18:16 [sharper]

KF: No

19:18:37 [sharper]

KF: Do we need to get this down to letter perfect level?

19:18:40 [sharper]

JB: no

19:19:02 [sharper]

JB: checking inadvertant interpretations - not letter perfect

19:19:19 [sharper]

JA: Issue Kelly?

19:19:24 [sharper]

KF: No

19:19:50 [sharper]

JB: looks sloppy compared to others

19:19:56 [sharper]

AC: agree

19:20:26 [sharper]

JA: Anyone does not know?

19:21:01 [jeanne]

The user agent provides at least one keyboard command to restore keyboard focus to a default location.

19:22:12 [sharper]

JA: Escape is critical

19:22:52 [jeanne]

The user agent provides at least one prominent keyboard command (e.g. escape key) to move keyboard focus to a default location.

19:23:05 [sharper]

JB: not obscure hot key - what about escape?

19:24:26 [sharper]

ACTION: Allanj Clarify- The user agent provides at least one prominent keyboard command (e.g. escape key) to move keyboard focus to a default location.

19:24:57 [sharper]

KF: don't want to see escape key - not appropriate

19:25:06 [sharper]

Direct keyboard commands can be used to activate the following important functions

19:25:41 [sharper]

JA: the List is already mentioned elsewhere.

19:26:26 [sharper]

JA: this just says you have to have a keyboard control for the list (defined elsewhere)

19:26:39 [sharper]

JB: Maybe forgo the list, thoughts?

19:27:19 [sharper]

AC: should we use keyboard presses as opposed to commands

19:27:37 [sharper]

JA: term needed for browser control

19:27:59 [sharper]

JS: would like to get away from sequential and direct

19:28:28 [sharper]

AC: key-presses would get you the entire list - except maybe volume control?

19:28:43 [jeanne]

Key press can be used to activate the following important functions (list) Level A

19:28:52 [sharper]

AC: lets go to 5 and return to 4 at the end of the telecon

19:28:59 [sharper]

User has the option to configure the keyboard processing order (UI, extensions, recognized content (Access key, AT), unrecognized content)

19:29:53 [sharper]

JB: all in () could be interpreted differently by different people - can we clarify?

19:30:05 [sharper]

JB: is it intended to be a flat list?

19:30:09 [sharper]

JA: yes

19:30:52 [sharper]

JA: should start on 4 next week

19:31:18 [sharper]

JA: thrash wording next week as opposed to section review?

19:31:50 [sharper]

JA: Regarding (Remove - should be in...) items

19:32:31 [sharper]

JB: address A.4 A.5 and AA.1 next week

19:33:43 [Zakim]

-kelly

19:34:03 [Zakim]

-Cantor

19:34:17 [Zakim]

-Simon

19:34:47 [sharper]

rrsagent, create minutes

19:34:47 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-ua-minutes.html sharper

19:35:06 [Zakim]

-Judy

19:35:08 [Zakim]

-Jeanne

19:35:10 [Zakim]

-Jim_Allan

19:35:11 [Zakim]

WAI_UAWG()2:00PM has ended

19:35:12 [Zakim]

Attendees were Jeanne, Judy, Jim_Allan, kelly, Cantor, Simon

19:35:33 [sharper]

zakim, please part

19:35:33 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #ua

19:36:01 [sharper]

RRSagent, draft minutes

19:36:01 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-ua-minutes.html sharper

19:36:12 [AllanJ]

#cg

19:38:00 [sharper]

rrsagent, set logs public

19:43:00 [sharper]

rrsagent, please part

19:43:00 [RRSAgent]

I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-ua-actions.rdf :

19:43:00 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: jb check on the pending question about timing of next publication vs timing of charter review for rechartering obligation [1]

19:43:00 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-ua-irc#T18-12-46

19:43:00 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: JA: Place these possible lost items into the 'correct' locations. [2]

19:43:00 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-ua-irc#T18-21-48

19:43:00 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: KFord Clarify - Rendered content (e.g. by character, word, line, paragraph, image, element, all) can be navigated and/or selected using the keyboard (consistent with operating system conventions). [3]

19:43:00 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-ua-irc#T19-13-52

19:43:00 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Allanj Clarify- The user agent provides at least one prominent keyboard command (e.g. escape key) to move keyboard focus to a default location. [4]

19:43:00 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-ua-irc#T19-24-26