16:26:28 RRSAgent has joined #tagmem 16:26:28 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-tagmem-irc 16:26:38 Meeting: TAG telcon 16:26:42 Chair: Stuart Williams 16:27:08 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/07/24-agenda.html 16:27:14 Scribe: Henry S. Thompson 16:27:19 Scribenick: ht 16:51:24 Stuart has joined #tagmem 16:52:22 Stuart has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/07/24-agenda 16:58:53 All set 16:58:59 thx 16:59:00 Rssagent is ready and waiting 16:59:07 TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has now started 16:59:14 +??P0 16:59:24 zakim, ?? is me. 16:59:24 +Stuart; got it 16:59:51 Ashok has joined #tagmem 17:00:12 -Stuart 17:00:12 +Stuart 17:00:13 +DanC 17:02:12 zakim, please call ht-781 17:02:12 ok, ht; the call is being made 17:02:14 +Ashok_Malhotra 17:02:14 +Ht 17:06:01 Topic: Administrivia 17:06:15 Regrets: Noah, TimBL, DaveO, Norm 17:06:24 Approve agenda as circulated 17:06:53 Resolved: Approve and publish minutes of joint call with OASIS XRI TC: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/07/03-tag-xri-minutes 17:06:54 +jar 17:07:36 Resolved: Minutes from 10 July telcon approved: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/07/10-minutes 17:07:57 SW: Next telcon: 28 August 17:08:35 q+ 17:08:43 Future regrets: TimBL 28 August 17:08:47 ack DanC 17:08:47 ack danc 17:10:03 DanC: News from IETF 17:10:06 IANA Update: Project to convert registries to XML http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg52473.html 17:10:37 Topic: News 17:10:45 "In order to make the transition as smooth as possible, IANA will continue to 17:10:45 maintain the legacy plain text formats until 30 November 2008. After this 17:10:45 date, plain text versions will only be provided that are derived from the 17:10:45 XML formats. However, implementors who intend to parse the contents of an 17:10:45 IANA protocol registry should migrate to using the XML versions, rather than 17:10:46 the plain text version. 17:10:47 SW: Instead of text files? 17:10:48 " 17:10:55 DC: In addition to 17:11:32 DC: XHTML could have killed two bullets with one stone there. . . 17:11:56 Zakim, who's on the phone? 17:11:56 On the phone I see Stuart, DanC, Ashok_Malhotra, Ht, jar 17:12:19 Topic: Issue contentTypeOverride-24 (ISSUE-24) 17:12:27 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/24 17:12:54 SW: Suggestion to re-open this, not yet decided 17:13:13 DC: Straw poll: re-open, possibly patch the finding? 17:13:17 SW: yes 17:13:24 AM: pass 17:13:29 HT: yes 17:13:38 ... there's new information 17:13:48 JR: yes, in light of HTML5 17:14:03 DC: yes 17:14:43 DC: Anyone likely to speak against. . .TimBL might, so not willing to put the question 17:14:59 SW: Will bring this back to the agenda on TimBL's return 17:15:11 Topic: Issue tagSoupIntegration-54 (ISSUE-54) 17:15:21 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/54 17:15:46 SW: See threads linked from the agenda: SVG in HTML, data-* 17:16:10 ack danc 17:16:14 ... HTML5 and URLs 17:17:03 DC: Wrt HTML5, editor has said he's going to using 'URL' in a fairly simple way 17:17:29 q? 17:18:04 ... which didn't sound so bad, until another spec. editor, Anne van Kesteren, decided to reference that definition from another spec., ???, but that turned out to be wrong 17:18:09 q+ to mention XSI 17:19:03 DC: because in HTML5, its what goes in the href attribute, which is essentially anything, whereas for the other, it's what goes on the wire, which has to be escaped etc. 17:19:03 s/???/access control/ 17:19:21 zakim, open queue. 17:19:21 ok, Stuart, the speaker queue is open 17:19:49 SW: How about IRI? 17:20:01 q+ ht to mention XSI 17:20:33 DC: Not that either, because you sometimes use the document encoding, not UTF-8, and indeed that happens with some big Chinese search site 17:20:52 SW: Is there a spec. reference for using the document encoding? 17:21:16 DC: I don't think it's ever been specced, considered ugly to do that before now 17:21:20 http://www.baidu.com/ 17:21:36 ack ht 17:21:36 ht, you wanted to mention XSI 17:22:54 HST: [explains X.S.I.] 17:23:42 ... [pointer to LEIRI] 17:24:46 q+ to respond yes, I'm familiar with that, and that's what I meant by IRI; HTML 5 URL is different; HTML 5 URL is actually a pair of a string and a document-character-encoding 17:25:18 DC: That won't work for HTML5, because of the encoding part 17:25:18 ack danc 17:25:18 DanC, you wanted to respond yes, I'm familiar with that, and that's what I meant by IRI; HTML 5 URL is different; HTML 5 URL is actually a pair of a string and a 17:25:22 ... document-character-encoding 17:25:53 SW: I heard DC say he was comfortable, anyone uncomfortable 17:25:55 HT: Me 17:26:43 q+ 17:26:56 (for record-keeping purposes, we're somewhat into IRIEverywhere) 17:27:52 HT: But how can this work at the server end -- does Apache know about Big5? 17:28:14 DC: The doc-encoding bit only happens in the query string 17:28:33 yes, the specs all say that you use utf-8 to get from IRIs to URIs, but when you see %xx in a URI, you don't necessarily know it came from utf-8 17:28:35 Isn't the character encoding another case od 'additional metadata'? 17:28:40 SW: Anyway, HT, I think you're mistaken about path encoding as well, that is not specified in the old URI spec and doesn't apply retrospectively 17:28:50 s/od/of/ 17:29:18 DC: Apache has to take %xx off the wire and look up filenames, I'm not sure what happens at that point 17:29:47 ... Browsers have a flag that says whether to use doc't encoding or UTF-8 for path part 17:30:23 ... Firefox sets that to 'UTF-8' for path, but leaves the equivalent query flag to 'off' == 'use doct encoding' 17:30:36 Yep... RFC3986 is much more prescriptive of the use of UTF-8 in new scheme specs. but is not retrospective on earlier schemes. 17:30:56 HST: I don't know what to think, in that case 17:31:00 ...more than rfc2396 17:31:35 HST: Is there anybody pushing back? 17:31:54 SW: There's a big thread, but I haven't read it in detail. . .DC, you following it? 17:32:18 -jar 17:32:41 +jar 17:32:51 DC: There is pushback from the IETF, e.g. Roy Fielding, saying that this is broken wrt IETF RFCs 17:32:55 mute jar 17:33:23 there's "rough consensus" in the IETF sense; I don't all it consensus, but somewhat stable status quo 17:33:24 ... But the browsers are unlikely to move in a way which reduces their functionality 17:33:40 SW: What about SVG in HTML 17:34:03 DC: Two proposals, one edited into the HTML5 spec. and then commented out 17:34:33 ... It changed the parsing algorithm, to deal with 'foreign content', w/o talking about circles, but did cover SVG and MATHML 17:34:48 ... MathML people liked it, SVG people pushed back 17:35:13 ... So the editor commented out the SVG part 17:36:04 ... Then the SVG people put forward a proposal to do it per their specs, which would require a stricter handling 17:36:20 ... of well-formedness bugs in the SVG 17:36:34 SW: Relevant to us? 17:36:55 DC: For sure, it's all about points on TV's options wrt integration 17:37:20 Andrew Sidwell 17:37:24 ... Someone popped up with a C-language implementation of the HTML5 algorithm, and said the commented-out part was OK 17:37:41 ... but could go with the SVG alternative as well 17:37:49 ?q 17:37:56 s/could go with/showed interest in implementing/ 17:38:03 s/SVG alternative/SVG WG alternative/ 17:38:07 HST: I'd look to look at the two options, haven't done so yet 17:38:46 SW: TV has asked that we spend up to half our F2F time on TagSoup -- is that OK? 17:38:48 HST: Yes 17:38:59 SW: Custom Data? 17:39:36 HST: I just thought it was validation of our fear for the effect of aria- 17:40:33 DC: And RDFa is in Candidate Rec --- I gather the question of how to do RDFa in non-XML HTML (4, 5, ...) has blown up 17:40:51 RDFa in HTML 4 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Jul/0050.html 17:40:59 ^ allegedly-long thread; I haven't read it 17:41:07 ... because the spec. very carefully _only_ talks about application/html+xml documents, but in reality people are using it in other docs 17:41:30 HST: I think we need to talk about namespaces for HTML5 at the f2f 17:41:43 ... and this is grist for that mill 17:41:59 On ISSUE-41: Decentralized extensibility Chris Wilson (Thursday, 17 July) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jul/0197.html 17:42:00 DC: Decentralized extensibility is live on public-html 17:42:07 Chris Wilson is engaged 17:42:38 SVG in HTML proposal Erik Dahlström (Monday, 14 July) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jul/0179.html 17:42:53 Sivonen http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jul/0250.html 17:43:21 ^ the SVG WG proposal and the biggest argument against that I've seen 17:45:25 SW: Some informal discussion could happen on this topic during this timeslot between now and 2008-08-28 17:45:35 Topic: Issue UrnsAndRegistries-50 (ISSUE-50) 17:45:42 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/54 17:46:29 SW: There has been some discussion with the XRI TC, as well as some private conversation with their chairs, to the effect that we would take things forward via www-tag 17:46:42 ... which has largely happened, whether we started it or not 17:47:09 HST: [started drafting -- DNS] 17:47:58 ... [threads linked agenda] 17:49:11 ... [conventions between Domain owners?] 17:49:42 q+ 17:49:45 q- 17:51:00 ack danc 17:51:01 ack DanC 17:51:12 DC: I think the ARK scheme is good 17:51:33 ... It does promote aliases, and suffers the consequent downside: caching may not work 17:51:34 Henry did you see the most recent Bradley proposal based on dns namess like boeing.com.xri.net (ie. it is under xri.net). 17:52:10 ... But that was necessitated by the lack of a single domain holder who could do the job 17:52:16 ... So I think it's OK 17:53:40 ... It's fine for e.g. Univ. of Minnesota to say "We will use ark: per the ARK spec.", it's _not_ fine for any client to interpret the presence of ark: to mean "this URI is an ARK" 17:54:33 q? 17:54:33 ... There has to be an independent channel, e.g. to the client developer, that UM has commited to the ARK story, and this was a UM URI that had ark: in add 17:55:05 s/in add/in it/ 17:55:43 ... Is the ARK spec on the right side of that line? I.e. does it expect clients to treat all ark: as ARKs? 17:55:52 HST: I think it's on the right side, but we should check 17:56:46 DC: Similarly you don't want to use xri.... as a domain-based key w/o getting IANA to reserve that subdomain 17:57:38 SW: Right, hence the xri.net, or, following a suggestion from me, boeing.com.xri.net, using subregistrations under xri.net 17:58:42 http://xri.net/=jbradley 17:58:44 he signs his message Marty Schleiff 17:58:47 hphpht 17:58:55 I meant http://xri.net/=jbradley 17:58:57 ... There seems to be some willingness, e.g. on the part of John Bradley, to shift from using a scheme to using subdomains 17:59:33 >> Regards 17:59:33 >> John Bradley 17:59:33 >> OASIS IDTRUST-SC 17:59:33 >> http://xri.net/=jbradley 18:00:16 "OASIS IDtrust Steering Committee is a special group" -- http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/comments/index.php?wg_abbrev=idtrust-sc 18:01:41 SW: Of course Bradley doesn't speak for the TC 18:01:42 (hm... http://idtrust.xml.org/ ...) 18:02:01 ... I asked Shleiff if he could live with the 'booth-bradley' proposal, and 18:02:15 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008Jul/0096 18:02:49 (and now http://www.oasis-idtrust.org/ ...) 18:03:14 ... he has replied that although preferring a scheme, he could live with booth-bradley 18:03:42 SW: DC, what do you think? 18:04:13 DC: As long as it's ??? or xri., yes 18:04:18 SW: HST? 18:04:27 HST: Yes, maybe, behind on my reading 18:04:52 SW: I think DO might be on board, but that was a way back. . . 18:05:08 s/way back/while ago/ 18:05:16 aha! found a full URL for "OASIS IDTRUST-SC": http://www.oasis-idtrust.org/steering-committee 18:05:17 ... we would need to check with him 18:05:27 and http://www.oasis-idtrust.org/bradley 18:06:36 SW: So this is coming down to: Is the TAG's concern entirely around the new scheme? 18:06:53 ... Metadata is perhaps another area 18:07:09 ... We don't have critical mass for that discussion right now 18:07:36 -jar 18:08:07 (re representations vs metadata, well... if they go with http://xri.net/... , then I think that problem will take care of itself; they'd hardly be the wierdest web site out there.) 18:08:12 ... Formats for messages, which encourage e.g. the use of =iname, and don't allow URIs, is an over-constraining position which we might have to object to 18:08:44 +jar 18:10:39 q+ to make a note on email discussion 18:10:41 SW: I've agreed to meet with Peter ?? and Drummond Reed to discuss how the discussion is going 18:11:06 ... I'd like to have someone with me if I can't have TimBL 18:11:15 ... I'd suggest HST 18:11:23 ... They've suggested 4 August 18:11:55 HST: I will be on holiday then 18:12:18 -jar 18:12:34 s/Peter ??/Peter Davis/ 18:12:53 ack danc 18:12:53 DanC, you wanted to make a note on email discussion 18:14:08 DC: Wrt emails, I'm not sure to what extent the main participants speak for the TC 18:14:25 ... Is there a critical mass of the TC participating? 18:15:25 +jar 18:15:30 SW: I think the participants are influential, but until a specific proposal is framed and put to the TC for approval 18:15:56 ... we can't really make any assumptions 18:16:25 http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/xri/ 18:17:27 SW: AM? 18:17:51 AM: I haven't looked into details, but the sense of progress towards a compromise is certainly encouraging 18:18:00 SW: JR? 18:19:00 JR: A lot of the problem is that the TAG's position is not well-communicated, or very sophisticated, and so is hard to get across to this group, who don't share our interests 18:19:20 s/or very/or is very/ 18:19:39 ... I think it is beginning to get across 18:20:37 fwiw, I took a stab at this URI persistence stuff in http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-urlni.html 18:20:56 SW: Back to the chair-to-chair meeting, I propose to postpone this to the end of the summer, would welcome HST and/or DC as well 18:21:15 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/09/ftfkc.html 18:21:29 Topic: F2F information 18:21:49 DC: Meeting space courtesy of Kaufman Foundation, for free 18:22:19 ... About 1 mile from Country Club Plaza, where the hotel I will recommend 18:22:40 ... is located 18:22:54 Ewing Marion Kauffman Foundation 18:23:05 s/Kaufman/Kauffman/ 18:24:13 [unminuted logistics discussion] 18:31:13 DC, SW: Quarterly Summary for Ian Jacobs -- DanC has the ball, will circulate 18:31:20 -Ashok_Malhotra 18:31:32 -Stuart 18:31:34 -jar 18:31:35 ACTION: Dan to circulate draft of our next Quarterly Summary 18:31:35 Created ACTION-168 - Circulate draft of our next Quarterly Summary [on Dan Connolly - due 2008-07-31]. 18:31:44 -Ht 18:31:54 zakim, bye 18:31:54 leaving. As of this point the attendees were Stuart, DanC, Ashok_Malhotra, Ht, jar 18:31:54 Zakim has left #tagmem 18:32:04 RRSAgent, draft minutes 18:32:04 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-tagmem-minutes.html ht 18:32:09 RRSAgent, make logs public 20:17:47 Norm has joined #tagmem