IRC log of tagmem on 2008-07-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-tagmem-irc
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Meeting: TAG telcon
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Chair: Stuart Williams
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Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/07/24-agenda.html
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Scribe: Henry S. Thompson
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Scribenick: Henry S. Thompson
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Stuart has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/07/24-agenda
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All set
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thx
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Rssagent is ready and waiting
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TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has now started
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+??P0
16:59:24 [Stuart]
zakim, ?? is me.
16:59:24 [Zakim]
+Stuart; got it
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-Stuart
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+Stuart
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+DanC
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zakim, please call ht-781
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ok, ht; the call is being made
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+Ashok_Malhotra
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+Ht
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Topic: Administrivia
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Regrets: Noah, TimBL, DaveO, Norm
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Approve agenda as circulated
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Resolved: Approve and publish minutes of joint call with OASIS XRI TC: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/07/03-tag-xri-minutes
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+jar
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Resolved: Minutes from 10 July telcon approved: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/07/10-minutes
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SW: Next telcon: 28 August
17:08:35 [DanC]
q+
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Future regrets: TimBL 28 August
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ack DanC
17:08:47 [Stuart]
ack danc
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DanC: News from IETF
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IANA Update: Project to convert registries to XML http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg52473.html
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Topic: News
17:10:45 [DanC]
"In order to make the transition as smooth as possible, IANA will continue to
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maintain the legacy plain text formats until 30 November 2008. After this
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date, plain text versions will only be provided that are derived from the
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XML formats. However, implementors who intend to parse the contents of an
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IANA protocol registry should migrate to using the XML versions, rather than
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the plain text version.
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SW: Instead of text files?
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"
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DC: In addition to
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DC: XHTML could have killed two bullets with one stone there. . .
17:11:56 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
17:11:56 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Stuart, DanC, Ashok_Malhotra, Ht, jar
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Topic: Issue contentTypeOverride-24 (ISSUE-24)
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http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/24
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SW: Suggestion to re-open this, not yet decided
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DC: Straw poll: re-open, possibly patch the finding?
17:13:17 [ht]
SW: yes
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AM: pass
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HT: yes
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... there's new information
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JR: yes, in light of HTML5
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DC: yes
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DC: Anyone likely to speak against. . .TimBL might, so not willing to put the question
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SW: Will bring this back to the agenda on TimBL's return
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Topic: Issue tagSoupIntegration-54 (ISSUE-54)
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http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/54
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SW: See threads linked from the agenda: SVG in HTML, data-*
17:16:10 [Stuart]
ack danc
17:16:14 [ht]
... HTML5 and URLs
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DC: Wrt HTML5, editor has said he's going to using 'URL' in a fairly simple way
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q?
17:18:04 [ht]
... which didn't sound so bad, until another spec. editor, Anne van Kesteren, decided to reference that definition from another spec., ???, but that turned out to be wrong
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q+ to mention XSI
17:19:03 [DanC]
s/???/access control/
17:19:21 [Stuart]
zakim, open queue.
17:19:21 [Zakim]
ok, Stuart, the speaker queue is open
17:19:49 [ht]
SW: How about IRI?
17:20:01 [Stuart]
q+ ht to mention XSI
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DC: Not that either, because you sometimes use the document encoding, not UTF-8, and indeed that happens with some big Chinese search site
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SW: Is there a spec. reference for using the document encoding?
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DC: I don't think it's ever been specced, considered ugly to do that before now
17:21:20 [DanC]
http://www.baidu.com/
17:21:36 [Stuart]
ack ht
17:21:36 [Zakim]
ht, you wanted to mention XSI
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HST: [explains X.S.I.]
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... [pointer to LEIRI]
17:24:46 [DanC]
q+ to respond yes, I'm familiar with that, and that's what I meant by IRI; HTML 5 URL is different; HTML 5 URL is actually a pair of a string and a document-character-encoding
17:25:18 [ht]
DC: That won't work for HTML5, because of the encoding part
17:25:18 [DanC]
ack danc
17:25:18 [Zakim]
DanC, you wanted to respond yes, I'm familiar with that, and that's what I meant by IRI; HTML 5 URL is different; HTML 5 URL is actually a pair of a string and a
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... document-character-encoding
17:25:53 [ht]
SW: I heard DC say he was comfortable, anyone uncomfortable
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HT: Me
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q+
17:26:56 [DanC]
(for record-keeping purposes, we're somewhat into IRIEverywhere)
17:27:52 [ht]
HT: But how can this work at the server end -- does Apache know about Big5?
17:28:14 [ht]
DC: The doc-encoding bit only happens in the query string
17:28:33 [DanC]
yes, the specs all say that you use utf-8 to get from IRIs to URIs, but when you see %xx in a URI, you don't necessarily know it came from utf-8
17:28:35 [Ashok]
Isn't the character encoding another case od 'additional metadata'?
17:28:40 [ht]
SW: Anyway, HT, I think you're mistaken about path encoding as well, that is not specified in the old URI spec and doesn't apply retrospectively
17:28:50 [Ashok]
s/od/of/
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DC: Apache has to take %xx off the wire and look up filenames, I'm not sure what happens at that point
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... Browsers have a flag that says whether to use doc't encoding or UTF-8 for path part
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... Firefox sets that to 'UTF-8' for path, but leaves the equivalent query flag to 'off' == 'use doct encoding'
17:30:36 [Stuart]
Yep... RFC3986 is much more prescriptive of the use of UTF-8 in new scheme specs. but is not retrospective on earlier schemes.
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HST: I don't know what to think, in that case
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...more than rfc2396
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HST: Is there anybody pushing back?
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SW: There's a big thread, but I haven't read it in detail. . .DC, you following it?
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-jar
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+jar
17:32:51 [ht]
DC: There is pushback from the IETF, e.g. Roy Fielding, saying that this is broken wrt IETF RFCs
17:32:55 [Stuart]
mute jar
17:33:23 [DanC]
there's "rough consensus" in the IETF sense; I don't all it consensus, but somewhat stable status quo
17:33:24 [ht]
... But the browsers are unlikely to move in a way which reduces their functionality
17:33:40 [ht]
SW: What about SVG in HTML
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DC: Two proposals, one edited into the HTML5 spec. and then commented out
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... It changed the parsing algorithm, to deal with 'foreign content', w/o talking about circles, but did cover SVG and MATHML
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... MathML people liked it, SVG people pushed back
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... So the editor commented out the SVG part
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... Then the SVG people put forward a proposal to do it per their specs, which would require a stricter handling
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... of well-formedness bugs in the SVG
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SW: Relevant to us?
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DC: For sure, it's all about points on TV's options wrt integration
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Andrew Sidwell <w3c@andrewsidwell.co.uk>
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... Someone popped up with a C-language implementation of the HTML5 algorithm, and said the commented-out part was OK
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... but could go with the SVG alternative as well
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?q
17:37:56 [DanC]
s/could go with/showed interest in implementing/
17:38:03 [DanC]
s/SVG alternative/SVG WG alternative/
17:38:07 [ht]
HST: I'd look to look at the two options, haven't done so yet
17:38:46 [ht]
SW: TV has asked that we spend up to half our F2F time on TagSoup -- is that OK?
17:38:48 [ht]
HST: Yes
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SW: Custom Data?
17:39:36 [ht]
HST: I just thought it was validation of our fear for the effect of aria-
17:40:33 [ht]
DC: And RDFa is in Candidate Rec --- I gather the question of how to do RDFa in non-XML HTML (4, 5, ...) has blown up
17:40:51 [DanC]
RDFa in HTML 4 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Jul/0050.html
17:40:59 [DanC]
^ allegedly-long thread; I haven't read it
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... because the spec. very carefully _only_ talks about application/html+xml documents, but in reality people are using it in other docs
17:41:30 [ht]
HST: I think we need to talk about namespaces for HTML5 at the f2f
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... and this is grist for that mill
17:41:59 [DanC]
On ISSUE-41: Decentralized extensibility Chris Wilson (Thursday, 17 July) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jul/0197.html
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DC: Decentralized extensibility is live on public-html
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Chris Wilson is engaged
17:42:38 [DanC]
SVG in HTML proposal Erik Dahlström (Monday, 14 July) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jul/0179.html
17:42:53 [DanC]
Sivonen http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jul/0250.html
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^ the SVG WG proposal and the biggest argument against that I've seen
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SW: Some informal discussion could happen on this topic during this timeslot between now and 2008-08-28
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Topic: Issue UrnsAndRegistries-50 (ISSUE-50)
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http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/54
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SW: There has been some discussion with the XRI TC, as well as some private conversation with their chairs, to the effect that we would take things forward via www-tag
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... which has largely happened, whether we started it or not
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HST: [started drafting -- DNS]
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... [threads linked agenda]
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... [conventions between Domain owners?]
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q+
17:49:45 [Stuart]
q-
17:51:00 [DanC]
ack danc
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ack DanC
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DC: I think the ARK scheme is good
17:51:33 [ht]
... It does promote aliases, and suffers the consequent downside: caching may not work
17:51:34 [Stuart]
Henry did you see the most recent Bradley proposal based on dns namess like boeing.com.xri.net (ie. it is under xri.net).
17:52:10 [ht]
... But that was necessitated by the lack of a single domain holder who could do the job
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... So I think it's OK
17:53:40 [ht]
... It's fine for e.g. Univ. of Minnesota to say "We will use ark: per the ARK spec.", it's _not_ fine for any client to interpret the presence of ark: to mean "this URI is an ARK"
17:54:33 [Stuart]
q?
17:54:33 [ht]
... There has to be an independent channel, e.g. to the client developer, that UM has commited to the ARK story, and this was a UM URI that had ark: in add
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s/in add/in it/
17:55:43 [ht]
... Is the ARK spec on the right side of that line? I.e. does it expect clients to treat all ark: as ARKs?
17:55:52 [ht]
HST: I think it's on the right side, but we should check
17:56:46 [ht]
DC: Similarly you don't want to use xri.... as a domain-based key w/o getting IANA to reserve that subdomain
17:57:38 [ht]
SW: Right, hence the xri.net, or, following a suggestion from me, boeing.com.xri.net, using subregistrations under xri.net
17:58:42 [Stuart]
http://xri.net/=jbradley
17:58:44 [DanC]
he signs his message Marty Schleiff
17:58:47 [DanC]
hphpht
17:58:55 [DanC]
I meant http://xri.net/=jbradley
17:58:57 [ht]
... There seems to be some willingness, e.g. on the part of John Bradley, to shift from using a scheme to using subdomains
17:59:33 [DanC]
>> Regards
17:59:33 [DanC]
>> John Bradley
17:59:33 [DanC]
>> OASIS IDTRUST-SC
17:59:33 [DanC]
>> http://xri.net/=jbradley
18:00:16 [DanC]
"OASIS IDtrust Steering Committee is a special group" -- http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/comments/index.php?wg_abbrev=idtrust-sc
18:01:41 [ht]
SW: Of course Bradley doesn't speak for the TC
18:01:42 [DanC]
(hm... http://idtrust.xml.org/ ...)
18:02:01 [ht]
... I asked Shleiff if he could live with the 'booth-bradley' proposal, and
18:02:15 [Stuart]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008Jul/0096
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(and now http://www.oasis-idtrust.org/ ...)
18:03:14 [ht]
... he has replied that although preferring a scheme, he could live with booth-bradley
18:03:42 [ht]
SW: DC, what do you think?
18:04:13 [ht]
DC: As long as it's ??? or xri., yes
18:04:18 [ht]
SW: HST?
18:04:27 [ht]
HST: Yes, maybe, behind on my reading
18:04:52 [ht]
SW: I think DO might be on board, but that was a way back. . .
18:05:08 [ht]
s/way back/while ago/
18:05:16 [DanC]
aha! found a full URL for "OASIS IDTRUST-SC": http://www.oasis-idtrust.org/steering-committee
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... we would need to check with him
18:05:27 [DanC]
and http://www.oasis-idtrust.org/bradley
18:06:36 [ht]
SW: So this is coming down to: Is the TAG's concern entirely around the new scheme?
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... Metadata is perhaps another area
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... We don't have critical mass for that discussion right now
18:07:36 [Zakim]
-jar
18:08:07 [DanC]
(re representations vs metadata, well... if they go with http://xri.net/... , then I think that problem will take care of itself; they'd hardly be the wierdest web site out there.)
18:08:12 [ht]
... Formats for messages, which encourage e.g. the use of =iname, and don't allow URIs, is an over-constraining position which we might have to object to
18:08:44 [Zakim]
+jar
18:10:39 [DanC]
q+ to make a note on email discussion
18:10:41 [ht]
SW: I've agreed to meet with Peter ?? and Drummond Reed to discuss how the discussion is going
18:11:06 [ht]
... I'd like to have someone with me if I can't have TimBL
18:11:15 [ht]
... I'd suggest HST
18:11:23 [ht]
... They've suggested 4 August
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HST: I will be on holiday then
18:12:18 [Zakim]
-jar
18:12:34 [ht]
s/Peter ??/Peter Davis/
18:12:53 [Stuart]
ack danc
18:12:53 [Zakim]
DanC, you wanted to make a note on email discussion
18:14:08 [ht]
DC: Wrt emails, I'm not sure to what extent the main participants speak for the TC
18:14:25 [ht]
... Is there a critical mass of the TC participating?
18:15:25 [Zakim]
+jar
18:15:30 [ht]
SW: I think the participants are influential, but until a specific proposal is framed and put to the TC for approval
18:15:56 [ht]
... we can't really make any assumptions
18:16:25 [DanC]
http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/xri/
18:17:27 [ht]
SW: AM?
18:17:51 [ht]
AM: I haven't looked into details, but the sense of progress towards a compromise is certainly encouraging
18:18:00 [ht]
SW: JR?
18:19:00 [ht]
JR: A lot of the problem is that the TAG's position is not well-communicated, or very sophisticated, and so is hard to get across to this group, who don't share our interests
18:19:20 [ht]
s/or very/or is very/
18:19:39 [ht]
... I think it is beginning to get across
18:20:37 [DanC]
fwiw, I took a stab at this URI persistence stuff in http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-urlni.html
18:20:56 [ht]
SW: Back to the chair-to-chair meeting, I propose to postpone this to the end of the summer, would welcome HST and/or DC as well
18:21:15 [DanC]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/09/ftfkc.html
18:21:29 [ht]
Topic: F2F information
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DC: Meeting space courtesy of Kaufman Foundation, for free
18:22:19 [ht]
... About 1 mile from Country Club Plaza, where the hotel I will recommend
18:22:40 [ht]
... is located
18:22:54 [DanC]
Ewing Marion Kauffman Foundation
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s/Kaufman/Kauffman/
18:24:13 [ht]
[unminuted logistics discussion]
18:31:13 [ht]
DC, SW: Quarterly Summary for Ian Jacobs -- DanC has the ball, will circulate
18:31:20 [Zakim]
-Ashok_Malhotra
18:31:32 [Zakim]
-Stuart
18:31:34 [Zakim]
-jar
18:31:35 [ht]
ACTION: Dan to circulate draft of our next Quarterly Summary
18:31:35 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-168 - Circulate draft of our next Quarterly Summary [on Dan Connolly - due 2008-07-31].
18:31:44 [Zakim]
-Ht
18:31:54 [ht]
zakim, bye
18:31:54 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Stuart, DanC, Ashok_Malhotra, Ht, jar
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Zakim has left #tagmem
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RRSAgent, draft minutes
18:32:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-tagmem-minutes.html ht
18:32:09 [ht]
RRSAgent, make logs public
20:17:47 [Norm]
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