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15:56:54 <plinss> zakim, this is style
15:56:54 <Zakim> ok, plinss; that matches Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
15:58:03 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
15:59:06 <plinss> zakim, [microsoft] has arronei
15:59:06 <Zakim> +arronei; got it
16:00:08 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:00:23 <George> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
16:00:24 <Zakim> +George; got it
16:00:58 <Zakim> +fantasai
16:02:31 <Zakim> +Melinda_Grant
16:02:57 <fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
16:03:36 <fantasai> I'm likely to leave early, so someone else will need to take over minutes
16:03:40 <melinda> melinda has joined #CSS
16:04:48 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
16:05:22 <Zakim> +SteveZ
16:06:14 <Zakim> +Bert
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16:09:17 <fantasai> Peter: Anything to add to agenda?
16:09:52 <fantasai> Melinda: Hoping for a brief discussion about where the definition of what's required for support for 'style' attribute
16:11:07 <fantasai> fantasai: We could rip out all new functionality in the style attr draft and publish that: that's what Tantek suggested. It's not defined anywhere in 2.1
16:11:18 <fantasai> Topic: Agenda for F2F
16:11:40 <fantasai> Peter: We don't have enough topics to fill a 3-day meeting yet
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16:11:54 <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
16:12:01 <Zakim> -[Mozilla]
16:12:11 <fantasai> Peter: I was thinking we should put up a page on the wiki and have people fill in
16:12:25 <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
16:12:25 <fantasai> Peter: I'd like to keep the F2F primarily technical, focus on things that benefit from us all being in the same room
16:12:33 <fantasai> Peter: We will filter and sort as time goes on
16:12:44 <dbaron> Zakim, [Mozilla] has David_Baron
16:12:44 <Zakim> +David_Baron; got it
16:12:54 <fantasai> Topic: Marquee
16:13:01 <fantasai> fantasai: Still waiting for Bert to reply
16:13:05 <sylvaing> Zakim, [Microsoft] has salonir, sylvaing
16:13:05 <Zakim> +salonir, sylvaing; got it
16:13:08 <fantasai> fantasai: last I spec
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16:13:29 <Zakim> +jason_cranfordtea
16:13:51 <fantasai> s/spec/checked/
16:15:21 <fantasai> Bert: I was thinking we should just remove any mention of vertical text
16:16:35 <fantasai> Bert: We can't test it until Text Layout is done
16:16:52 <fantasai> fantasai: I'm pretty sure we can write the text so it works in the future, but testing would be a blocker for getting to REC
16:17:12 <fantasai> Melinda: Should we ask OMA? If they're doing vertical text, then they'll want these definitions
16:18:20 <fantasai> ACTION: Bert Ask OMA what mobile world thinks about removing vertical text descriptions from Marquee 
16:18:20 <trackbot> Created ACTION-81 - Ask OMA what mobile world thinks about removing vertical text descriptions from Marquee  [on Bert Bos - due 2008-07-30].
16:18:45 <fantasai> Peter: If they say they need it, they better be prepared to provide an implementation of it
16:19:13 <fantasai> Bert: Someone said he has test reports for marquee, needs to work on them a bit more first but will send them to me
16:19:48 <fantasai> Peter: So are we agreed that unless Mobile needs vertical, we remove it from the draft?
16:20:22 <fantasai> Steve: I think that's a good idea. We should keep vertical in mind, though.
16:21:55 <fantasai> Peter: Yeah. We don't want to block ourselves in the future, but we don't want to be blocked by vertical
16:22:01 <fantasai> Bert: Good topic for F2F?
16:22:16 <fantasai> fantasai: yeah. We should take some time to define terminology that we can use and refer to from other specs
16:22:58 <fantasai> fantasai: That way the specs don't have to depend on how vertical text is done exactly, but we can make sure layout models in e.g. CSS3 Multi-col can add the few sentences necessary to say how vertical layout is analogous
16:23:06 <fantasai> Steve: Would be a good candidate for a W3C Note
16:24:46 <fantasai> Bert asks about "primary paragraph direction" and fantasai explains about bidi
16:25:09 <fantasai> Steve: One of the topics for discussion at the F2F is what set of things ought to be considered content for that note
16:25:18 <fantasai> Steve: Obviously some of the things we're talking about, but perhaps more than that.
16:25:33 <fantasai> Steve: I know that fantasai and Paul and I put together some terminology
16:25:44 <fantasai> Bert: Sounds like a req document for text module
16:25:56 <fantasai> Steve: A bit more than that. Background, or something
16:26:08 <fantasai> Steve: It's not just the text module, also applies to box moduel and others
16:26:12 <fantasai> s/moduel/module/
16:26:46 <fantasai> ACTION: fantasai add Note about vertical text terminology to F2F agenda
16:26:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-82 - Add Note about vertical text terminology to F2F agenda [on Elika Etemad - due 2008-07-30].
16:27:10 <fantasai> Topic: Case-sensitivity and lang attribute in XML
16:27:32 <fantasai> Peter: XML says that attribute values are case-sensitive
16:27:54 <fantasai> Peter: It also says that xml:lang takes lang codes, and lang codes are case-insensitive
16:28:00 <plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008Jul/att-0026/xmllang.xhtml
16:30:03 <dbaron> Even if xml:lang is defined to be case-insensitive, it's not necessarily case-insensitive at a level that CSS wants to know about.
16:31:30 <fantasai> fantasai argues that we need to decouple [lang|=] and :lang(), and that :lang() should be case-insensitive per CSS
16:32:01 <fantasai> and we should add a note saying whether xml:lang is case-sensitive or case-insensitive when matched against with Selectors
16:32:28 <fantasai> Peter: I agree with that. I think :lang() should be very simple to use, have a consistent way of matching against the languages
16:33:16 <fantasai> Peter: If a document language uses some other convention than RFC3066, then :lang(en) should still match English
16:34:11 <fantasai> Peter: The language may not be coming from an attribute. It might be coming from an element, or an HTTP header. We don't know and we shouldn't care
16:34:25 <fantasai> Melinda agrees with this proposal
16:35:11 <fantasai> Peter: Do we have consensus that this is how the pseudo-class should work?
16:39:26 <fantasai> Steve argues that CSS should define exactly which mechanisms can define language, Melinda and Peter and Elika argue that the definition should be generic and refer to the specs for the document language.
16:44:38 <fantasai> Peter: I think we have agreement on how we want the lang attribute to work
16:45:02 <fantasai> Peter: I think we have agreement to refer to other specs and explain how they work here
16:45:14 <fantasai> Peter: The only disagreement is whether those references should be normative or informative
16:51:15 <fantasai> ACTION: fantasai come up with wording for lang issue
16:51:15 <trackbot> Created ACTION-83 - Come up with wording for lang issue [on Elika Etemad - due 2008-07-30].
16:51:27 <fantasai> Topic: CSS2.1 Issues
16:51:50 <plinss> http://csswg.inkedblade.net/spec/css2.1#issue-35
16:52:01 <fantasai> fantasai: need hyatt for that one
16:52:26 <plinss> http://csswg.inkedblade.net/spec/css2.1#issue-45
16:52:30 <fantasai> http://csswg.inkedblade.net/spec/css2.1#issue-45
16:54:06 <fantasai> fantasai: it's just a clarification, doesn't change anything
16:54:43 <fantasai> fantasai: Alex asked for it, because IE had a wrong interpretation of this case before
16:54:59 <fantasai> Alex explains
16:55:15 <fantasai> Alex: It's pretty hard to get a precise definition here, but we have good interoperability on this point
16:57:50 <sylvaing> Zakim, [Microsoft] has alexmog
16:57:50 <Zakim> +alexmog; got it
17:02:44 <fantasai> discussion of whether the antecedent of "this" in the proposed note is clear
17:04:02 <fantasai> Steve proposes s/this/this hypothetical calculation/
17:04:19 <fantasai> RESOLVED: proposal for issue 45 accepted
17:04:27 <Zakim> -[Mozilla]
17:04:28 <Zakim> -jason_cranfordtea
17:04:31 <Zakim> -fantasai
17:04:33 <Zakim> -Melinda_Grant
17:04:35 <Zakim> -George
17:04:37 <Zakim> -plinss
17:04:37 <George> George has left #css
17:04:45 <Zakim> -SteveZ
17:04:53 <Zakim> -Bert
17:04:57 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
17:04:59 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
17:05:01 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:05:05 <Zakim> Attendees were plinss, arronei, George, fantasai, Melinda_Grant, [Microsoft], SteveZ, Bert, David_Baron, salonir, sylvaing, jason_cranfordtea, alexmog
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