10:31:54 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg
10:31:54 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/07/22-svg-irc
10:31:56 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
10:31:58 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
10:31:58 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG()6:30AM scheduled to start now
10:31:59 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
10:31:59 <trackbot> Date: 22 July 2008
10:32:19 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()6:30AM has now started
10:32:26 <Zakim> +??P1
10:32:29 <heycam> Zakim, ??P1 is me
10:32:29 <Zakim> +heycam; got it
10:32:32 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
10:32:45 <Zakim> +??P3
10:32:46 <ed_> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
10:32:47 <Zakim> +ed_; got it
10:32:51 <aemmons> zakim, ??p3 is me
10:32:51 <Zakim> +aemmons; got it
10:33:29 <anthony_> anthony_ has joined #svg
10:37:38 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #svg
10:40:20 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
10:40:54 <ed_> scribe: erik
10:40:59 <ed_> scribeNick: ed_
10:41:07 <ed_> chair: AE
10:41:07 <aemmons> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008JulSep/0071.html
10:41:17 <ed_> regrets: AG
10:41:56 <ed_> Topic: 1.2T testsuite
10:42:00 <aemmons> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/wiki/TestCoverage
10:42:13 <aemmons> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008JulSep/0064.html
10:42:25 <ed_> AE: this is the status update doug sent out
10:42:33 <ed_> DS: just a short update
10:42:40 <ChrisL> I just checked in struct-cond-08-t.svg which tests requiredFonts
10:43:01 <Zakim> + +95249aaaa
10:43:01 <ed_> AE: so you changed the table a bit, and took out some of the items to a separate table
10:43:23 <ed_> ...we have a list of tests to be done
10:43:34 <ed_> ...I've done timer
10:43:39 <ed_> ...any other updates?
10:43:51 <ed_> CL: added a test for requiredFonts
10:43:59 <ed_> ...opera passes, bitflash fails
10:44:18 <ed_> CM: mine can be moved to the bottom as well
10:44:45 <ed_> CL: when I was doing the test, we have an untested condition if you have a list of requiredFonts
10:44:55 <ed_> AE: add that to the list?
10:44:57 <ed_> CL: yes
10:45:05 <ed_> ...requiredFonts with listvalues
10:45:28 <ed_> AE: updating the table now
10:45:37 <ed_> ...any other updates?
10:45:51 <ed_> ...guessing AG hasn't had time to do his share
10:45:57 <ChrisL> Are the instructions at http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/docs/SVGTestSuite-howto.html still the correct ones?
10:46:09 <ed_> ...are the assignments ok with you CL?
10:46:27 <ed_> DS: the ones I mentioned in my email, i'll just do those
10:46:50 <ed_> AE: requiredFeatures and requiredExtensions are covered, yes?
10:47:36 <ed_> DS: someone had written that there was only struct-condition-1-t
10:47:47 <ed_> ...but since then there has been tests added
10:48:09 <ed_> ...each of those attributes have been tested except requiredFonts
10:48:17 <ed_> ...there are two tests basically
10:48:25 <ChrisL> $ grep requiredExtensions *.svg
10:48:25 <ChrisL> struct-cond-01-t.svg:      <rect fill="red" x="0" y="0" width="220" height="150"
10:48:25 <ChrisL>  requiredExtensions="http://example.org/bogus" />
10:48:31 <ed_> AE: there is some work to be done then?
10:48:39 <ed_> DS: yes, as I mentioned in the mail
10:49:04 <ed_> CL: requiredFormats is covered by struct-cond-204
10:49:23 <ed_> AE: CM do you have time to do some in the next few days?
10:49:43 <ed_> ...the connection ones maybe?
10:50:15 <ed_> CM: those will need some serverside stuff, but sure I can give it a shot
10:50:44 <ed_> AE: just let AG know that you're working on them
10:50:58 <ed_> ...until thursday, do people intend have all tests done?
10:51:03 <ed_> CM: not all
10:51:07 <ed_> DS: plan to
10:51:10 <ed_> CL: not all
10:51:53 <ed_> CL: we need to update the testsuite howto page
10:52:09 <ed_> ...does anyone have a pointer to the new one?
10:52:17 <ed_> DS: AG was going to update it
10:52:32 <ed_> CL: right, but this hasn't been updated in a while
10:52:40 <ed_> DS: i'll move this to the wiki and update it
10:53:11 <ChrisL> s/not all/took me a while to get started with the new cvs base/
10:53:13 <ed_> CL: yes, we need to have the shortnames correct since people will use different names otherwise
10:53:54 <ed_> DS: doing the update right now
10:54:02 <ed_> AE: great progress everyone
10:54:29 <ed_> ...we still have outstanding actions on the old tests, and we need to review and add the new tests
10:54:39 <ed_> ...we should review the tests before the f2f
10:55:20 <ed_> ...good that we have this table with tests to be reviewed
10:56:02 <ed_> CL: i thought we would list the tests we've made, to show that we've made progress
10:56:14 <ed_> AE: we still have the list of recently reviewed tests
10:56:26 <ed_> ...looking a bit at the open actions against the testsuite
10:56:34 <ed_> ...most are in our member-only tracker
10:56:58 <aemmons> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/track/products/13
10:57:27 <ed_> ...you can go on forever with some of these comments
10:58:04 <ed_> ...we need to be prudent and pragmatic and I don't think we have to address all of them to get the testsuite out
10:58:23 <ed_> CL: some of them are cosmetic yes, like change this color to something else
10:58:43 <ed_> AE: it would be nice to clear out these open issues
10:58:51 <ed_> ...we do have alot of open actions
10:58:58 <ed_> ...so we need to triage them
10:59:13 <ed_> ...which is again something that has to be done between now and the f2f
10:59:29 <ed_> ...tedious work, but it is something we need to focus on
10:59:45 <ed_> ...should we do a marathon telcon, with testsuite as the focus?
10:59:47 <ed_> CL: sure
11:00:00 <ed_> AE: what's a good date for that?
11:00:08 <ed_> ...I'm away next week
11:00:53 <ed_> ED: i'm away the first couple of weeks in august 
11:01:07 <ed_> AE: other people, beginning of august?
11:01:13 <ed_> CL: fine with me
11:01:56 <ed_> AE: starting at the normal telcon time?
11:02:11 <ed_> CL: maybe an hour earlier?
11:02:18 <ed_> ...and going for four hours
11:02:38 <ed_> AE: typically an hour of discussion and an hour of actions
11:03:06 <ed_> ACTION: AE to mail the svgwg-list about the marathon telcon
11:03:06 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2106 - Mail the svgwg-list about the marathon telcon [on Andrew Emmons - due 2008-07-29].
11:03:43 <ed_> AE: do we think we will be ready with the testsuite after the f2f?
11:03:51 <ed_> CM: what's the remaining work?
11:04:01 <ed_> AE: review, approve and generate references
11:04:09 <ed_> ...and we have actions against old tests too
11:04:46 <ed_> ...we haven't published the one we made in nice
11:05:03 <ed_> CL: yes, it is in the public cvs now though
11:05:14 <ed_> ...but we should make a release with a zip file
11:06:40 <ed_> ...there is the problem with moving files to a new repository
11:07:08 <ed_> ...and revision numbers, but you can do a script to replace the dollarsigns so that cvs don't replace those
11:07:20 <ed_> CM: wasn't this already done for the testsuite?
11:07:38 <ed_> CL: it's a non-changing snapshot
11:08:27 <ed_> AE: so we can use the tricks that mikesmith suggested 
11:08:51 <ed_> CL: I still think that just making a script to replace the dollarsigns is easier
11:09:35 <ed_> AE: does someone have the time to publish the testsuite? and is that more important than doing new tests?
11:09:47 <ed_> DS: and also editing D3E
11:10:01 <ed_> AE: I think it's more important to work on the new tests
11:10:14 <ed_> ...but it would be nice if we could push it out before the f2f
11:10:25 <ed_> CL: let's see where we are in a few weeks
11:10:33 <ed_> ...and maybe push it out then
11:10:50 <ed_> Topic: <script> and externalResourcesRequired="" (ACTION-2063)
11:11:02 <heycam> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0149.html
11:12:05 <shepazu> http://www.w3.org/2007/03/mth/harness
11:12:09 <ed_> DS: the css wg has been working with the mobile web people, to make a testsuite harness
11:12:36 <ed_> ...just take a look and we can see if we can move in a similar direction
11:12:57 <ed_> ...they have their own testresults
11:13:13 <ed_> ...obviously this is really small, but they have their own implementation report
11:13:50 <ed_> ...using this would allow us to step through the testsuite more quickly
11:14:10 <ed_> ...though it would need an svg harness, this one uses a html harness
11:14:29 <ed_> ...so this probably wouldn't work in batik or bitflash, but we could make a similar one in svg
11:14:46 <ed_> ...if we could do this quickly then it might be worth the effort
11:15:08 <ed_> CL: we could generate a new harness similar to this
11:16:26 <ed_> DS: maybe after we've done the testsuite
11:16:52 <ed_> AE: any improvement we can do to our testsuite will be good
11:18:39 <ed_> DS: the w3c has been working on a new testsuite licensing policy
11:18:43 <ed_> ...it's being review
11:19:46 <ed_> ...allows making changes to tests, and republishing
11:20:42 <ed_> AE: so, back to the script and eRR issue again...
11:20:53 <ed_> CM: there are three questions
11:21:01 <ed_> ...does eRR apply to script elements
11:21:07 <ed_> ...spec is a bit unclear
11:21:50 <ed_> CL: the intention was to require the resources to be available
11:22:09 <ed_> ...so the paragraph that mentions rendering may be an oversight
11:22:24 <ed_> ...usually you want to have all resources just like if you had it locally
11:23:10 <ed_> CM: second question, should eRR=true require some resource to be there?
11:23:35 <ed_> ...so, that if you had eRR there on anything that causes a 404 require other script elements not to run?
11:24:08 <ed_> CL: eRR can be on any subtree, so you only stop the subtree
11:24:30 <ed_> CM: so if you had script elements before and after but eRR on only one subtree
11:24:40 <ed_> ...you'd get the other one
11:24:54 <ed_> ...executed first, and the other one when it becomes available
11:25:15 <ed_> ...in HTML it blocks if you have a defer attribute on it
11:25:28 <ed_> CL: scripts in html are in the head section?
11:25:35 <ed_> DS: they can be anywhere
11:26:38 <ChrisL> yeah, of course they can (d'oh!)
11:26:59 <ed_> CM: opera implements eRR?
11:27:17 <ed_> ED: yes, 9.5 does, the interaction with scripts may need some testing though
11:28:00 <ed_> CM: the wording in the spec about how the tree gets constructed in progressive rendering
11:28:38 <ed_> ...if scripts are executed when inserted we may need to tweak the wording
11:28:56 <ed_> DS: yes, we don't want to differ from html
11:29:37 <ed_> CM: right, so batik parses the whole document at one time, but opera and firefox execute script as they are inserted
11:30:15 <ed_> RESOLUTION: when start-tags get parsed they get appended to the most recently opened element that is still actually open (the top of the stack)
11:31:00 <ed_> ACTION: Cameron to update the 1.2T spec with the reworded section on progressive rendering and tree construction
11:31:01 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2107 - Update the 1.2T spec with the reworded section on progressive rendering and tree construction [on Cameron McCormack - due 2008-07-29].
11:31:21 <ed_> CM: the last part is about firing load events on script elements
11:31:36 <ed_> ...the scripts can refer to some external resource
11:32:09 <ed_> ...the spec doesn't take into account the case where eRR=true but there is no reference
11:32:47 <ed_> AE: even if the reference doesn't exist the event is fired
11:33:11 <ed_> CM: what does it mean that it's not visible in the dom?
11:33:41 <ed_> AE: accessible via the dom
11:33:51 <ed_> CL: maybe it has to do with shadowtrees?
11:34:58 <ed_> CM: if you have some subtree outside the document which you do modifications to do they still generate events?
11:34:58 <ChrisL> you can traverse  from a shadow tree but not to it, so it would make sense in that context.
11:35:33 <ed_> DS: i don't think those gets fired
11:35:46 <ed_> CM: maybe that's what the sentence is trying to say
11:35:53 <ed_> DS: maybe that's something for D3E
11:36:12 <ed_> ...it's not a mutation event since the document tree is not actually changed
11:36:32 <ed_> CM: so you don't get any events if you create and append elements outside the tree (in that tree)
11:37:23 <heycam> s/tree)/tree)?/
11:37:38 <ed_> ACTION: DS to make sure DOM 3 Events talks about mutation events outside of the document
11:37:38 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2108 - Make sure DOM 3 Events talks about mutation events outside of the document [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-07-29].
11:37:42 <aemmons> "The mutation and mutation name event modules are designed to allow notification of any changes to the structure of a document"
11:38:14 <ed_> AE: I think it is pretty clear that you don't get events fired outside the tree
11:38:28 <ed_> ...are we comfortable with the wording as is?
11:38:53 <ed_> CL: maybe talking about elements that have been creaed but not yet appended
11:39:11 <ed_> ...you wouldn't expect events to be sent to it right?
11:39:28 <ed_> AE: so maybe it should say if it is in the document tree
11:39:34 <ed_> CL: yes that's better
11:40:30 <ed_> CM: ok, so the first issue about script elements without a reference but with eRR=false, do you get a load event?
11:40:45 <ed_> AE: it would still fire
11:40:50 <Zakim> -ed_
11:40:57 <ed_> ...I remember we discussed this about a year ago
11:41:58 <Zakim> +??P0
11:42:18 <ed_> Zakim, ??P0 is me
11:42:18 <Zakim> +ed_; got it
11:42:42 <ed_> RESOLUTION: change wording from "accesible in the DOM" to be "in the document tree" 
11:43:49 <ed_> ACTION: cameron to make changes for script elements and eRR as discussed in these minutes
11:43:49 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2109 - Make changes for script elements and eRR as discussed in these minutes [on Cameron McCormack - due 2008-07-29].
11:43:58 <aemmons> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008JulSep/0008.html
11:44:14 <aemmons> Topic: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008JulSep/0008.html
11:44:24 <aemmons> Topic: Use of org.w3c.svg package in Java bindings
11:45:05 <ed_> CM: in the java appendix the packagename has changed from svg 1.1
11:45:14 <ed_> ...was that deliberate?
11:45:48 <ed_> ...[reads the mail]
11:46:08 <ed_> AE: so JSR-287 should be backwards compatible with 226
11:46:21 <ed_> CM: any objections to changing it?
11:47:05 <ed_> ACTION: Cameron to change the packagename from org.w3c.svg to org.w3c.dom.svg in 1.2T
11:47:05 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2110 - Change the packagename from org.w3c.svg to org.w3c.dom.svg in 1.2T [on Cameron McCormack - due 2008-07-29].
11:47:31 <aemmons>  http://www.w3.org/mid/20080704024005.GB6027@arc.mcc.id.au
11:47:36 <ed_> Topic: exceptions for non-finite floats
11:48:34 <ed_> CM: I had an action to make various methods NOT_SUPPORTED_ERR when NaN or INF are passed to methods that take a float argument
11:48:57 <ed_> s/ make various methods/ make various methods throw/
11:49:28 <heycam> ACTION-2082?
11:49:28 <trackbot> ACTION-2082 -- Cameron McCormack to fix exceptions in the specification for setFloat values -- due 2008-07-10 -- CLOSED
11:49:28 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2082
11:49:39 <ed_> AE: so you're asking if get(Presentation)Trait(NS) throws a different exception
11:49:58 <ed_> ...I'd be hesitant to change anything there if it didn't already have an exception
11:50:12 <ed_> CM: these ones had exceptions already
11:50:30 <ed_> AE: setFloatTrait has type-mismatch-err
11:51:11 <ed_> CM: ok, so if JSR says that maybe just leave those as is
11:51:27 <heycam> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.2T/publish/svgudom.html#FloatValues
11:51:38 <ed_> ...I've added some wording to cover the other cases
11:52:07 <ed_> AE: ok, good, so I'm fine with those changes
11:52:23 <aemmons> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008JulSep/0045.html
11:52:34 <ed_> topic: Unwanted restriction for JPEG images that have colour profiles
11:52:52 <ed_> CL: so only one comment saying this was good, and it doesn't affect conformance
11:53:16 <ed_> ...any objections to adding this wording?
11:53:31 <ed_> DS,AE,CM: looks ok
11:53:48 <ed_> ACTION: CL to remove the unwanted restriction for JPEG images that have colour profiles
11:53:48 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2111 - Remove the unwanted restriction for JPEG images that have colour profiles [on Chris Lilley - due 2008-07-29].
11:54:49 <ed_> CL: so the css wg has just released a css3 draft that removes some parts that svg UA:s implemented but which weren't implemented in html/css UA:s
11:55:23 <Zakim> -ed_
11:56:20 <Zakim> +??P0
11:56:42 <ed__> ed__ has joined #svg
12:00:14 <Zakim> - +95249aaaa
12:00:16 <Zakim> -heycam
12:00:17 <Zakim> -aemmons
12:00:19 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
12:00:21 <Zakim> -??P0
12:00:23 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()6:30AM has ended
12:00:24 <Zakim> Attendees were heycam, ed_, aemmons, Doug_Schepers, +95249aaaa
12:00:25 <ed__> Zakim, bye
12:00:25 <Zakim> Zakim has left #svg
12:00:32 <ed__> RRSAgent, make minutes
12:00:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/22-svg-minutes.html ed__
12:02:58 <ed_work> ed_work has joined #svg
12:11:48 <heycam> heycam has joined #svg
13:54:25 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #svg