IRC log of rif on 2008-07-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:48:44 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:48:44 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:49:46 [csma]
zakim, this will be rif
14:49:46 [Zakim]
ok, csma; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 11 minutes
14:50:09 [csma]
Meeting: RIF telecon 22 July 2008
14:50:23 [csma]
Chair: Christian de Sainte Marie
14:51:11 [csma]
14:51:47 [Harold]
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14:52:20 [csma]
csma has changed the topic to: 22 July 2008 RIF telecon Agenda:
14:53:28 [csma]
Harold, would you scribe? Or do you think you will be too busy, as editor of BLD and FLD?
14:54:19 [csma]
Regrets: Sandro Hawke ChrisWelty MohamedZergaoui
14:55:00 [csma]
clear agenda
14:55:14 [csma]
agendum+ Admin
14:55:23 [csma]
Agendum+ Liaisons
14:55:36 [csma]
Agendum+ Actions review
14:55:52 [csma]
Agendum+ Publications
14:56:02 [csma]
Agendum+ Core
14:56:15 [csma]
Agendum+ AOB
14:57:50 [mdean]
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14:59:55 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:00:04 [Zakim]
15:00:09 [csma]
zakim, ??P5 is me
15:00:09 [Zakim]
+csma; got it
15:00:20 [Zakim]
15:00:28 [Zakim]
15:00:32 [Zakim]
15:00:59 [josb]
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15:01:08 [csma]
scribe: Mike Dean
15:01:18 [Zakim]
15:01:19 [csma]
scribenick: Mike_Dean
15:01:50 [Zakim]
15:02:45 [Hassan]
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15:02:46 [AxelPolleres]
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15:02:56 [csma]
Regrets: ChrisWelty LeoraMorgenstern MohamedZergaoui DaveReynolds AdrianPaschke
15:03:16 [Zakim]
15:03:20 [StellaMitchell]
StellaMitchell has joined #rif
15:03:20 [Zakim]
15:04:11 [Zakim]
15:04:21 [Zakim]
15:04:29 [StellaMitchell]
zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:04:29 [Zakim]
+StellaMitchell; got it
15:04:31 [Zakim]
15:05:03 [Harold]
zakim, [NRCC] is me.
15:05:03 [Zakim]
+Harold; got it
15:05:20 [mdean]
zakim, next item
15:05:21 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from csma]
15:05:35 [csma]
PROPOSED: accept minutes of telecon July 15
15:05:49 [csma]
15:06:21 [Zakim]
15:06:22 [mdean]
RESOLVED: accept minutes of telecon July 15
15:06:34 [mdean]
zakim, next item
15:06:55 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Liaisons" taken up [from csma]
15:07:16 [mdean]
Axel on OWL Liaison
15:07:49 [mdean]
Axel: telecon yesterday with I18N and OWL WG on rif:text/owl:internationalizedString - minutes posted to WGs
15:07:57 [GaryHallmark]
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15:08:15 [mdean]
... most likely outcome: single overall datatype in both WGs using rdf namespace (like rdf:text)
15:08:27 [Zakim]
15:08:47 [mdean]
... should there be a datatype hierararchy for language tags? disregarded to avoid separating value spaces
15:09:10 [mdean]
... additional RIF builtins for language tag matching
15:09:32 [mdean]
... on-going discussion - meet again in 2 weeks
15:09:54 [MichaelKifer]
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15:10:55 [mdean]
Sandro: enumerated attendees - nothing else to add
15:11:09 [AxelPolleres]
minutes are here:
15:12:00 [mdean]
Christian: XQuery published new documents
15:12:14 [mdean]
15:12:20 [AxelPolleres]
15:12:28 [csma]
ack axel
15:13:00 [mdean]
Axel: one draft of DTB included predicates to evaluate XQuery on XML literals
15:13:11 [mdean]
csma: discuss in next draft
15:13:24 [mdean]
no other liaison reports
15:13:45 [AxelPolleres]
indeed such a built-in would have some tricky implications (dealing with sequences, etc.)
15:14:17 [MichaelKifer]
is there a problem with the telecon system? It tells me that the passcode is invalid (several times)
15:14:40 [mdean]
I used 74394 successfully
15:14:49 [sandro]
Zakim, what is the code?
15:14:49 [Zakim]
the conference code is 74394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), sandro
15:15:02 [Zakim]
15:15:10 [MichaelKifer]
15:15:18 [Zakim]
15:15:23 [GaryHallmark]
zakim, who is talking?
15:15:24 [Zakim]
15:15:29 [josb]
zakim, mute MichaelKifer
15:15:29 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:15:33 [Zakim]
GaryHallmark, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: csma (48%), Sandro (4%), MichaelKifer (59%)
15:15:50 [sandro]
MichaelKifer, when you called in we all heard a loud continuous tone.
15:16:39 [MichaelKifer]
I am using cell phone, but the reception is v good, so I dont know.
15:17:04 [AxelPolleres]
15:17:19 [sandro]
It sounded like feedback, MichaelKifer. Is it possibe your speaker and mic are too close or echoing or something?
15:17:50 [mdean]
Sandro updating actions in action tracker
15:21:41 [mdean]
csma: shortest action list in a very long time
15:22:57 [mdean]
zakim, next item
15:22:57 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Actions review" taken up [from csma]
15:23:15 [mdean]
zakim, next item
15:23:15 [Zakim]
agendum 3 was just opened, mdean
15:23:24 [mdean]
15:23:50 [mdean]
zakim, next item
15:23:50 [Zakim]
agendum 3 was just opened, mdean
15:24:09 [mdean]
csma: difficult to keep track of changes
15:24:24 [mdean]
... reopen period of review
15:24:31 [mdean]
... new vote on Last Call as early as possible
15:24:34 [josb]
15:24:40 [Hassan]
I second this motion for more time to reevaluate the latest copy to be frozen
15:24:52 [mdean]
... for BLD
15:25:13 [josb]
15:25:22 [josb]
15:25:28 [sandro]
15:25:28 [csma]
ack josb
15:25:29 [MichaelKifer]
15:26:08 [mdean]
josb: also reopen DTB
15:26:37 [mdean]
csma: DTB is first public WD - could be treated differently
15:27:00 [Hassan]
I also agree with Josb's - to harmonize all documents as soon as possible
15:27:21 [mdean]
s/reopen DTB/reopen DTB and SWC/
15:27:44 [mdean]
josb: cannot use F2F resolution because more substantive changes have been made for BLD, FLD, and SWC
15:27:44 [csma]
ack sandro
15:28:10 [mdean]
sandro: good idea to publish all at the same time - for external readers
15:28:20 [Harold]
+1 to Sandro
15:28:23 [mdean]
... worth delaying 2 weeks, but perhaps not more
15:28:53 [mdean]
... revote on everything, but don't change decisions from last F2F
15:29:04 [mdean]
... vote no only if new information
15:29:07 [AxelPolleres]
BTW: or all publications we need to fix the links (from wiki-links to the WD/LC) but that's probably a minor technical thing, right? Is this automatized?
15:29:27 [josb]
Axel, yes this is automated
15:29:33 [sandro]
Sandro: I'm okay with another vote, as long as we're clear that the only reason to vote NO is because something was changed that should not have been changed, given the resolutions at the last F2F.
15:30:18 [mdean]
csma: UCR and PRD did not change - have been waiting for almost a month
15:30:36 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, unmute me
15:30:36 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
15:30:38 [csma]
ack michael
15:30:41 [mdean]
... could differentiate between Last Call
15:31:04 [josb]
15:31:10 [mdean]
MKifer: Stella reviewing previous version
15:31:21 [csma]
ack josb
15:31:31 [mdean]
josb: vote next Tuesday (soon as possible)
15:31:35 [StellaMitchell]
15:31:41 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, mute me
15:31:41 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:31:45 [MichaelKifer]
15:32:04 [AxelPolleres]
+1 vote soon and get things out, unless serious concerns raised until then.
15:32:11 [mdean]
csma: name new reviewers (1 week for reviews, 1 week for changes) - or announce that we will vote next week
15:32:42 [csma]
15:32:59 [mdean]
sandro: some changes on Wiki since last frozen versions
15:33:12 [mdean]
... could do new freeze after telecon
15:33:15 [Zakim]
+ +0208995aaaa
15:33:18 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, unmute me
15:33:18 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
15:33:37 [markproctor]
markproctor has joined #rif
15:33:53 [mdean]
josb: Stella reviews after freeze - editorial changes
15:33:57 [Hassan]
Makes sense to make it swiftly this time on the older docs (BLD, DTB) - more time may be needed on the newer (e.g. PRD)
15:35:26 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, mute me
15:35:26 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:35:31 [csma]
15:36:20 [mdean]
Harold: everyone should look at newly frozen versions
15:36:46 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, unmute me
15:36:46 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
15:37:10 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, mute me
15:37:10 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:37:36 [mdean]
csma: probably with JavaScript in UCR
15:37:46 [mdean]
sandro: haven't looked at this yet
15:38:10 [mdean]
... copied from OWL draft that was already published - should be easy to resolve
15:39:10 [josb]
15:40:01 [mdean]
csma: wait 1 hour to add comment from Gary on PRD
15:40:02 [csma]
ack josb
15:40:51 [mdean]
josb: section 6.1 numbered list is incorrect (but OK on Wiki) - also subnumbering
15:41:22 [mdean]
sandro: pseudo markup problem
15:41:28 [mdean]
... BLD has 91 HTML errors
15:41:38 [mdean]
... probably caused by running Tidy
15:41:39 [sandro]
append ,validate
15:41:52 [sandro],validate
15:42:08 [StellaMitchell]
list numbering problems in sections 3.2 and 3.3 in BLD also
15:42:39 [AxelPolleres]
I assume ALL editors shall do that.
15:42:57 [mdean]
sandro: all editors should at least validate documents
15:43:30 [mdean]
... do now - formal actions not needed
15:44:14 [josb]
SWC now has valid HTML
15:44:42 [josb]
15:44:48 [csma]
ack josb
15:44:54 [josb],checklinks
15:45:55 [mdean]
sandro: links should be to other Wiki pages, will be converted to TR at publication
15:46:13 [mdean]
zakim, next item
15:46:13 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "Core" taken up [from csma]
15:47:29 [mdean]
csma: questions from Gary - When will we have XML Schema for PRD? Will this include Core? Intersection of PRD and BLD? Specified directly?
15:48:20 [mdean]
... Having BLD XML Schema import Core would be a substantial change
15:48:35 [mdean]
... BLD Schema doesn't separate Core
15:48:47 [mdean]
15:49:05 [mdean]
sandro: think we could do this after Last Call
15:49:09 [mdean]
... editorial at the schema level
15:49:17 [Harold]
I agree, if the defined language is the same, such a re-modularization is editorial.
15:49:24 [mdean]
csma: not a showstopper for BLD last call
15:49:47 [mdean]
csma: should Core be a separate document
15:49:57 [mdean]
15:50:43 [mdean]
sandro: preferable to separate, but not required - can we find an editor?
15:51:28 [csma]
15:51:28 [AxelPolleres]
Can/Shall we decide on that in the next F2F? I think this needs more discussion. I don't have a clear picture at this moment what the exact intersection is, to be honest.
15:51:30 [mdean]
csma: is it pure intersection or are some common things not in Core? issue 48 about classification constructs
15:52:05 [josb]
15:52:11 [csma]
ack josb
15:52:17 [mdean]
csma: no urgency to discuss this today
15:52:43 [GaryHallmark]
15:53:21 [Harold]
From the BLD point of view, we had:
15:53:30 [csma]
ack gary
15:54:28 [mdean]
Gary: Core dynamically defined as intersection of all standard dialects - at least for now
15:54:36 [mdean]
... driven by real use case
15:54:54 [mdean]
s/use case/use case of published dialects/
15:55:32 [mdean]
no volunteers to edit a new document
15:55:46 [mdean]
axel: need discussion at F2F meeting
15:55:52 [mdean]
15:56:01 [mdean]
... need to review further
15:57:29 [GaryHallmark]
I would rather wait for that 3rd or 4th dialect...
15:58:14 [mdean]
gary: danger in throwing things out prematurely
15:58:47 [Hassan]
+1 on adjourning
15:58:49 [AxelPolleres]
15:58:52 [GaryHallmark]
15:58:55 [mdean]
15:58:57 [Zakim]
15:58:59 [Zakim]
15:59:01 [Zakim]
15:59:01 [Zakim]
15:59:02 [Zakim]
15:59:03 [Zakim]
15:59:04 [Zakim]
15:59:21 [csma]
rrsagent, make log public
15:59:30 [csma]
eesagent, make minutes
15:59:43 [csma]
rrsagent, meke minutes
15:59:43 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'meke minutes', csma. Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:59:55 [csma]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:59:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate csma
16:01:03 [csma]
scribenick: mdean
16:01:16 [csma]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:01:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate csma
16:01:55 [csma]
16:02:03 [csma]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:02:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate csma
16:02:46 [sandro]
Zakim, list attendees
16:02:46 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been csma, Mike_Dean, josb, Sandro, LeoraMorgenstern, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, StellaMitchell, Harold, AxelPolleres, Gary_Hallmark, MichaelKifer,
16:02:49 [Zakim]
... +0208995aaaa
16:02:59 [csma]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:02:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate csma
16:04:56 [sandro]
zakim, who is on the call?
16:04:56 [Zakim]
On the phone I see csma, Mike_Dean, Sandro, +0208995aaaa
16:05:48 [sandro]
zakim, aaaa is MarkProctor
16:05:48 [Zakim]
+MarkProctor; got it
16:06:15 [Zakim]
16:06:29 [csma]
zakim, who is on the call
16:06:29 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is on the call', csma
16:06:30 [Zakim]
16:06:45 [csma]
zakim, who is on the call?
16:06:45 [Zakim]
On the phone I see csma, Sandro
16:12:58 [Zakim]
16:12:59 [Zakim]
16:13:00 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:13:01 [Zakim]
Attendees were csma, Mike_Dean, josb, Sandro, LeoraMorgenstern, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, StellaMitchell, Harold, AxelPolleres, Gary_Hallmark, MichaelKifer, +0208995aaaa, MarkProctor
16:26:53 [csma]
csma has left #rif