13:54:51 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #bpwg
13:54:51 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/07/22-bpwg-irc
13:54:53 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:54:53 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #bpwg
13:54:55 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be BPWG
13:54:56 <trackbot> Meeting: Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference
13:54:56 <trackbot> Date: 22 July 2008
13:54:56 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see MWI_BPWG(CTTF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
13:55:12 <francois> Chair: francois
13:55:19 <francois> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2008Jul/0023.html
13:55:34 <francois> Regrets: Pontus, Aaron
14:00:25 <rob> rob has joined #bpwg
14:01:08 <SeanP> SeanP has joined #bpwg
14:01:34 <Zakim> MWI_BPWG(CTTF)10:00AM has now started
14:01:43 <Zakim> +Francois
14:02:09 <Zakim> +rob
14:03:00 <Zakim> +SeanP
14:05:04 <jo> jo has joined #bpwg
14:05:20 <jo> zakim, code?
14:05:20 <Zakim> the conference code is 2283 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jo
14:05:50 <Zakim> +jo
14:06:25 <jo> zakim, who is here?
14:06:25 <Zakim> On the phone I see Francois, rob, SeanP, jo
14:06:26 <Zakim> On IRC I see jo, SeanP, rob, Zakim, RRSAgent, andrews, francois, trackbot, dom, matt
14:07:23 <Zakim> +andrews
14:07:38 <rob> Scribe: rob
14:07:45 <rob> ScribeNick: rob
14:08:59 <rob> Topic: Appendix B Examples
14:09:32 <rob> francois: Jo's right, we can't go to last call with no Appendix B
14:10:01 <rob> ... 1st option is an "intermediate working draft" to give us 2 weeks to finish it
14:10:02 <jo> q+ to wonder if folks can contribute to this within 1 week?
14:10:23 <francois> ack jo
14:10:23 <Zakim> jo, you wanted to wonder if folks can contribute to this within 1 week?
14:10:28 <rob> ... 2nd option is just finish it then go last call in 2 weeks
14:10:50 <rob> jo: dependshow quick we can get the examples together
14:11:39 <rob> ... or we could publish with one example and then expect comments back like "you need more examples!"
14:12:01 <rob> ... whilst secretly working on those
14:12:29 <rob> ... Would help if CTTF members each provide one example
14:12:55 <jo> [would much prefer if we did what we meant and actually publish a final last call draft with all the examples we mean to include]
14:12:59 <SeanP> q+
14:12:59 <rob> francois: good idea to share load
14:13:05 <francois> ack SeanP 
14:13:14 <andrews> q+
14:13:23 <rob> SeanP: yes, happy to do an example
14:14:21 <rob> AndrewS: can I have B4?
14:14:31 <rob> SeanP: ok, i'll take B2
14:14:33 <francois> ACTION: andrew to write some text for CT Appendix B.4
14:14:33 <trackbot> Created ACTION-815 - Write some text for CT Appendix B.4 [on Andrew Swainston - due 2008-07-29].
14:14:52 <francois> ACTION: Sean to write some text for CT Appendix B.2
14:14:52 <trackbot> Created ACTION-816 - Write some text for CT Appendix B.2 [on Sean Patterson - due 2008-07-29].
14:16:08 <francois> ACTION: rob to write some text for CT Appendix B.5
14:16:08 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - rob
14:16:39 <francois> ACTION: robert to write some text for CT Appendix B.5
14:16:39 <trackbot> Created ACTION-817 - Write some text for CT Appendix B.5 [on Robert Finean - due 2008-07-29].
14:17:08 <francois> ACTION: daoust to write some text for CT Appendix B.3
14:17:08 <trackbot> Created ACTION-818 - Write some text for CT Appendix B.3 [on François Daoust - due 2008-07-29].
14:17:46 <rob> francois: so please examples before Friday
14:18:09 <rob> jo: Thursday evening is best, then I can get another draft out on Friday
14:18:25 <francois> Topic: CT and direct choice of user experience
14:19:20 <jo> q+
14:19:29 <rob> francois: trying to rationalise the issue; from a technical viewpoint there is no inconsistency but might it confuse users?
14:19:34 <francois> ack andrews 
14:19:40 <francois> ack jo
14:19:51 <francois> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Jul/0062.html ISSUE-270
14:19:52 <rob> jo: suggest we drop this
14:20:19 <rob> ... there's not much we can say, so let's not try
14:21:04 <jo> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: ref ISSUE-270 3.1.5.3 and 3.2.3 drop these editorial notes
14:21:11 <rob> +1
14:21:11 <francois> +1
14:21:58 <SeanP> +1
14:22:05 <rob> RESOLUTION: ref ISSUE-270 3.1.5.3 and 3.2.3 drop these editorial notes
14:22:08 <francois> Close ISSUE-270
14:22:17 <francois> Topic: HTTPS link re-writing
14:22:27 <francois> ACTION-813?
14:22:27 <trackbot> ACTION-813 -- Heiko Gerlach to draft some clearer wording of 3.3.6.2 on HTTPS link re-writing -- due 2008-07-22 -- OPEN
14:22:27 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/813
14:22:55 <rob> francois: Bryan had a lot of comments on this
14:23:25 <francois> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2008Jul/0011.html discussion
14:23:30 <rob> ... but we need to avoid prescribing workings, we just need to prescribe outcomes that are possible
14:24:16 <francois> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: amend text in 3.3.6.2 with some clarification that "to avoid decryption and transformation of the resources the links refer to" means that the CT-proxy must be bypassed in practice.
14:25:17 <jo> q+ to disagree with the propsoed resolution and to suggest adding a note to stress that transformation is not possible without breaking end to end security
14:25:24 <francois> ack jo
14:25:24 <Zakim> jo, you wanted to disagree with the propsoed resolution and to suggest adding a note to stress that transformation is not possible without breaking end to end security
14:26:15 <andrews> I agree with Jo
14:26:33 <rob> jo: wants to avoid any doubt that "when content is transformed end-to-end security is broken"
14:26:44 <SeanP> Agree, leave text as is
14:26:45 <francois> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: add a note in 3.3.6.2 that states that transformation is not possible without breaking end to end security
14:27:05 <andrews> +1
14:27:08 <francois> +1
14:27:39 <rob> RESOLUTION: add a note in 3.3.6.2 that states that transformation is not possible without breaking end to end security
14:27:44 <jo> ACTION: jo to add a note per resolution on CT 3.3.6.3 on end to end security
14:27:44 <trackbot> Created ACTION-819 - Add a note per resolution on CT 3.3.6.3 on end to end security [on Jo Rabin - due 2008-07-29].
14:27:44 <francois> Close ACTION-813
14:27:44 <trackbot> ACTION-813 Draft some clearer wording of 3.3.6.2 on HTTPS link re-writing closed
14:27:59 <francois> Topic: No mention of Content-Types in 3.3.6
14:29:07 <rob> francois: I'm fine with the decision from several months ago
14:29:49 <francois> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Stick to our decision not to mention examples of Content-Types in 3.3.6
14:29:54 <rob> jo: SeanP suggested Content-Type improvements that are in the forthcoming draft
14:30:13 <francois> Close ACTION-812
14:30:13 <trackbot> ACTION-812 Dig in the archives to check reason not to mention content types in the list of heuristics closed
14:30:37 <rob> RESOLUTION: Stick to our decision not to mention examples of Content-Types in 3.3.6
14:30:47 <francois> Topic: meta http-equiv note in 3.2.2
14:31:43 <francois> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: not to confuse readers, move the note on meta http-equiv from 3.2.2 to an appendix on legacy servers
14:31:55 <jo> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Drop note on meta http-equiv no-transform and move to appendix
14:32:13 <francois> +1
14:32:18 <andrews> +1
14:32:40 <SeanP> +1
14:32:43 <rob> RESOLUTION: Drop note on meta http-equiv no-transform and move to appendix
14:32:49 <francois> Topic: Pagination and caching directives
14:32:57 <francois> ACTION-811?
14:32:57 <trackbot> ACTION-811 -- François Daoust to send a summary of the pagination note (3.1.4) to the mailing-list -- due 2008-07-22 -- PENDINGREVIEW
14:32:57 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/811
14:33:27 <rob> francois: don't think there's need for mention of this
14:34:09 <jo> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Add a note stating that when a transforming proxy is serving stale content as a result of pagination (or for other reasons) it SHOULD note that the data is stale
14:34:23 <rob> ... we can either drop the section or add requirements that CT-proxy must cache it
14:34:59 <rob> q+ to say real users don't understand this stuff
14:35:47 <francois> ack rob
14:35:47 <Zakim> rob, you wanted to say real users don't understand this stuff
14:35:49 <rob> francois: but if i'm scrolling around a page on a browser I don't get informed when it turns stale
14:37:53 <jo> _refresh_ for an up to date 
14:37:56 <rob> rob: i think we have to point out that the right thing to do is serve cached (and therefore likely stale)
14:37:56 <SeanP> q+
14:38:07 <francois> ack SeanP 
14:38:22 <rob> jo: still think we should point out they need to refresh to get the latest copy
14:39:07 <rob> SeanP: maybe only do this if you reload the same section of the page?
14:41:57 <rob> rob: likely to get this message a lot if cookies imply content is automatically stale
14:42:23 <rob> jo: didn't mean that, only meant if Expires was set explicitly
14:43:00 <rob> ... this is a deviation from accepted HTTP
14:43:09 <SeanP> q+
14:43:22 <rob> q+ to say it's standard HTTP if the CT-proxy is a "virtual browser"
14:43:48 <jo> q+ to say that we defined it as not being a "virtual browser"
14:44:10 <francois> ack SeanP 
14:44:17 <rob> francois: if we're deviating from HTTP we should note that's the case
14:45:04 <andrews> q+
14:45:07 <francois> ack rob 
14:45:07 <Zakim> rob, you wanted to say it's standard HTTP if the CT-proxy is a "virtual browser"
14:45:09 <rob> SeanP: tending to agree with Jo if I come back an hour later and go to sub-page 2 we should note it's old
14:46:08 <jo> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Introduce some text stating that for the purposes of consistent pagination proxies MAY serve stale data but when doing do SHOULD notify the user that this is the case and SHOULD provide a simple means of retrieving a fresh copy
14:47:00 <francois> ack jo
14:47:00 <Zakim> jo, you wanted to say that we defined it as not being a "virtual browser"
14:47:10 <rob> rob: it's standard HTTP if the CT-proxy and handset are grouped together as a single "virtual browser" entity
14:47:13 <francois> ack andrews 
14:47:26 <rob> jo: we haven't defined it like that though
14:48:13 <SeanP> q+
14:49:00 <francois> ack SeanP 
14:49:01 <rob> andrews: user-experience is that typically you find out content has expired when they hit back buttons, so maybe they will be used to such warnings
14:50:02 <rob> ... I think of CT-proxy as an extension of the origin server, not of the browser
14:50:44 <rob> SeanP: if page does expire quickly they will get that message a lot
14:51:43 <rob> jo: we're not prescribing a message, just noting they may be provided with a message and means to refresh
14:51:53 <jo> +1
14:51:57 <francois> 0
14:52:00 <rob> -1
14:52:06 <andrews> 0 (???)
14:52:10 <SeanP> 0, still thinking about it
14:52:14 <rob> q+ to say MAY not SHOULD
14:52:21 <francois> ack rob
14:52:21 <Zakim> rob, you wanted to say MAY not SHOULD
14:53:31 <rob> rob: prefer MAY not SHOULD
14:54:03 <rob> jo: we could continue with SHOULD until implementations. If implementations show it's irritating, take it out
14:54:40 <jo> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Introduce some text stating that for the purposes of consistent pagination proxies MAY serve stale data but when doing do SHOULD notify the user that this is the case and SHOULD provide a simple means of retrieving a fresh copy - noting that from a process point of view it is a "feature at risk"
14:55:10 <rob> francois: do we need to state this in the document?
14:55:12 <francois> +1
14:55:18 <rob> jo: no, just in the actions
14:55:38 <jo> +1
14:56:22 <andrews> q+
14:56:24 <rob> 0
14:56:26 <francois> ack andrews 
14:56:32 <SeanP> Still 0, I like the "may" proposal
14:57:12 <jo> q+ to point out to andrews ...
14:57:34 <rob> andrews: I do see the logic of treating sub-pages as just scrolling
14:57:42 <rob> ... so prefer MAY to SHOULD
14:57:44 <francois> ack jo
14:57:44 <Zakim> jo, you wanted to point out to andrews ...
14:58:46 <rob> jo: but paging where there's clearly comms with a remote server doesn't feel like just scrolling up and down
14:59:24 <rob> ... so believe we should give SHOULD a shot at implementation
14:59:57 <rob> andrews: ok maybe for a last-call draft
15:00:19 <rob> jo: to move from Candidate Rec to Rec must have implementations
15:00:38 <rob> ... so we'd find out the experience at that stage
15:00:49 <jo> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Introduce some text stating that for the purposes of consistent pagination proxies MAY serve stale data but when doing do SHOULD notify the user that this is the case and SHOULD provide a simple means of retrieving a fresh copy - noting that from a process point of view it is a "feature at risk"
15:00:54 <jo> +1
15:00:58 <francois> +1
15:01:03 <rob> 0
15:01:18 <andrews> 0
15:01:25 <SeanP> 0
15:01:37 <rob> RESOLUTION: Introduce some text stating that for the purposes of consistent pagination proxies MAY serve stale data but when doing do SHOULD notify the user that this is the case and SHOULD provide a simple means of retrieving a fresh copy - noting that from a process point of view it is a "feature at risk"
15:03:22 <rob> Topic: Link element section structure (3.2.3.2)
15:03:32 <rob> jo: already addressesd in new draft
15:03:46 <rob> ... so I'll circulate new draft
15:04:00 <rob> ... and then we can finish this call on-time
15:04:47 <rob> francois: ok, we'll see if next week we're ready for last call
15:05:09 <rob> jo: yes, so I'll note that in the draft
15:05:50 <rob> ... So draft this afternoon, then everyone contribute Appendix B examples then final draft Friday
15:06:05 <Zakim> -Francois
15:06:07 <Zakim> -jo
15:06:19 <Zakim> -SeanP
15:06:29 <Zakim> -rob
15:06:47 <Zakim> -andrews
15:06:49 <Zakim> MWI_BPWG(CTTF)10:00AM has ended
15:06:53 <Zakim> Attendees were Francois, rob, SeanP, jo, andrews
15:07:03 <francois> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:07:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/22-bpwg-minutes.html francois
15:09:02 <rob> rob has left #bpwg
15:36:23 <francois> RRSAGent, bye
15:36:23 <RRSAgent> I see 6 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/22-bpwg-actions.rdf :
15:36:23 <RRSAgent> ACTION: andrew to write some text for CT Appendix B.4 [1]
15:36:23 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/22-bpwg-irc#T14-14-33
15:36:23 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Sean to write some text for CT Appendix B.2 [2]
15:36:23 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/22-bpwg-irc#T14-14-52
15:36:23 <RRSAgent> ACTION: rob to write some text for CT Appendix B.5 [3]
15:36:23 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/22-bpwg-irc#T14-16-08
15:36:23 <RRSAgent> ACTION: robert to write some text for CT Appendix B.5 [4]
15:36:23 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/22-bpwg-irc#T14-16-39
15:36:23 <RRSAgent> ACTION: daoust to write some text for CT Appendix B.3 [5]
15:36:23 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/22-bpwg-irc#T14-17-08
15:36:23 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jo to add a note per resolution on CT 3.3.6.3 on end to end security [6]
15:36:23 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/22-bpwg-irc#T14-27-44
15:36:29 <francois> Zakim, bye
15:36:29 <Zakim> Zakim has left #bpwg