13:01:12 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #awwsw
13:01:12 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/07/22-awwsw-irc
13:01:18 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #awwsw
13:01:23 <dbooth> Meeting: awwsw
13:01:29 <dbooth> zakim, this will be awwsw
13:01:29 <Zakim> ok, dbooth; I see TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM scheduled to start now
13:01:34 <dbooth> zakim, code?
13:01:34 <Zakim> the conference code is 29979 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), dbooth
13:02:01 <Zakim> TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM has now started
13:02:07 <Zakim> +DBooth
13:02:42 <timbl> timbl has joined #awwsw
13:02:52 <Zakim> + +1.617.538.aaaa
13:03:07 <dbooth> zakim, aaaa is jar
13:03:07 <Zakim> +jar; got it
13:05:02 <Zakim> -jar
13:08:24 <Zakim> +jar
13:08:46 <jar> jar has joined #awwsw
13:09:01 <jar> zakim, who is on the call
13:09:01 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the call', jar
13:09:14 <jar> zakim, who is here
13:09:14 <Zakim> jar, you need to end that query with '?'
13:09:23 <jar> zakim, who is on the phone?
13:09:23 <Zakim> On the phone I see DBooth, jar
13:09:27 <Stuart> Stuart has joined #awwsw
13:09:57 <hhalpin> hhalpin has joined #awwsw
13:10:09 <hhalpin> Sorry for being a bit late.
13:10:11 <Zakim> + +44.186.528.aabb
13:10:28 <Zakim> +??P6
13:10:39 <Stuart> zakim, ??P6 is me
13:10:39 <Zakim> +Stuart; got it
13:10:52 <hhalpin> it's Bill Dutton's office.
13:11:09 <dbooth> zakim, aabb is timbl
13:11:09 <Zakim> +timbl; got it
13:11:20 <dbooth> zakim, timbl also has hhalpin
13:11:20 <Zakim> +hhalpin; got it
13:12:20 <hhalpin> there are not really a starting point.
13:12:31 <dbooth> Topic: Harry's documents
13:12:55 <hhalpin> http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswListofTerms
13:13:25 <hhalpin> ok.,
13:14:10 <hhalpin> http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswListofTerms
13:14:34 <hhalpin> http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswHome
13:14:48 <hhalpin> http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswDboothsRules
13:15:01 <hhalpin> start with ones close to protocol.
13:15:18 <dbooth> jar: I'd like to see samples of the need for these terms.
13:15:53 <dbooth> harry: Leo Sauerman wants the ability to say "here's how i got this rdf.  i followed this 303 and 200".
13:16:05 <hhalpin> 303 is just a redirection.
13:16:40 <dbooth> ... But he also said if we stick very close to http it may be too close.  303 is just a redirect.  Maybe "i followed this linkk from a link header, or an html doc", so maybe some level of abstraction would be useful.
13:16:47 <hhalpin> not anymore.
13:17:30 <dbooth> timbl: algorithm i;d use: if you want to generalize http, then find another example of the class first.
13:17:37 <hhalpin> timbl: reasonable rule - if you want to introduce a new class.
13:17:45 <hhalpin> add a new example.
13:17:46 <jar> (jar and timbl are agreeing! we should have enough eexamples to show that the distinctions are real)
13:17:50 <dbooth> ... show me something that's in the superclass butnot in the subclass.
13:17:58 <dbooth> i agree too
13:18:35 <jar> examples can (should) just go in rdfs:comment.
13:19:01 <dbooth> http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswQuestions
13:19:07 <hhalpin> We do not have to materialize every distinction in the list.
13:19:18 <hhalpin> but we have to have it at least as a textual comment.
13:19:18 <dbooth> should add leo's question to the questions list.
13:19:29 <hhalpin> I will see if I can get Leo to write this up and e-mail the list, or join the list.
13:19:34 <hhalpin> and discussion.
13:19:35 <timbl> timbl has joined #awwsw
13:19:40 <hhalpin> He is very interested in this.
13:20:41 <dbooth> jar: the important thing about provenance is that what you start with and end up with are different in kind.  what conclusions do you want to end up with, at the app level? 
13:21:11 <dbooth> ACTION: harry to add leo's question to the question list
13:21:11 <trackbot> Created ACTION-8 - Add leo's question to the question list [on Harry Halpin - due 2008-07-29].
13:21:23 <dbooth> ACTION: harry to add textual examples to his terms list
13:21:23 <trackbot> Created ACTION-9 - Add textual examples to his terms list [on Harry Halpin - due 2008-07-29].
13:21:41 <dbooth> ACTION: jar to add question about provenance to the questions list
13:21:41 <trackbot> Created ACTION-10 - Add question about provenance to the questions list [on Jonathan Rees - due 2008-07-29].
13:22:55 <hhalpin_> hhalpin_ has joined #awwsw
13:23:01 <jar> JAR's intent: meant for "artifacts" to mean things produced by this group
13:23:20 <jar> and for "readings" to be inputs coming from elsewhere... I will fix this on the page
13:24:02 <jar> call it "inputs"?  "readings and other inputs?"   -- I will try to make this clear.
13:25:04 <hhalpin> hhalpin has joined #awwsw
13:26:44 <hhalpin> agents?
13:26:50 <hhalpin> should we cut it?
13:26:54 <hhalpin> specify it to Web agents?
13:27:02 <hhalpin> Are all web-agents user-agents?
13:27:11 <timbl> http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswListofTerms
13:28:07 <hhalpin> state changes.
13:28:12 <hhalpin> the resouce has changed.
13:28:53 <hhalpin> but i agree, it's very broad.
13:29:00 <hhalpin> i am not sure if it should be kept.
13:29:23 <hhalpin> Maybe we should generate use-cases first, before walking through the list?
13:30:33 <hhalpin> stick to just http
13:30:54 <Stuart> jar, did we give up on: http://sw.neurocommons.org/2008/inforesource2 I thought that we were getting quite close with that.
13:31:06 <hhalpin> payload.
13:31:25 <hhalpin> message which is a superclass of response and request.
13:31:34 <hhalpin> so I think maybe payload = message.
13:31:50 <hhalpin> is payload more of a packet-level term?
13:32:04 <hhalpin> status code.
13:32:10 <hhalpin> status code is not an entity.
13:32:18 <timbl> http:statusCdoe is a propert of a n http:response.
13:32:42 <hhalpin> response includes metadata.
13:33:24 <hhalpin> Hey, I'm just doing what AlanR told me to :)
13:33:57 <hhalpin> request is in?
13:34:15 <hhalpin> AlanR said "just the terms" first :)
13:34:15 <jar> is 'request' in? 
13:35:15 <timbl> http:Request   http:Response
13:35:54 <timbl> Both sublcasses og http:Message
13:37:55 <jar> hhalpin: What sends a request? What sends a response?
13:38:15 <timbl> You don't have to model them
13:38:22 <timbl> unless you can conclude things about them
13:38:47 <timbl> Who feeds the people who write the message?  <-- out of scope
13:39:55 <hhalpin> hhalpin has joined #awwsw
13:41:10 <hhalpin> So, just keep to GET?
13:41:36 <timbl> http:Reply  a rdfs:Class ;   <--    in David's
13:41:39 <hhalpin> it seems like we want to either get *all* the HTTP methods or *none*
13:42:33 <timbl> it seems to me we need to get all or one or two.
13:42:54 <dbooth> i'm happy sticking with GET, and get that working first
13:42:55 <timbl> GET is the 99% case to start iwth
13:43:08 <jar> refresh http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswListofTerms  if you like
13:43:40 <jar> TimBL: PROPFIND doesn't fit with web architecture very well
13:43:49 <hhalpin> So, GET and HEAD.
13:43:52 <hhalpin> Any others?
13:44:06 <timbl> Later, but noit now, PUT
13:44:32 <dbooth> But GET's essentially a superset of HEAD anyway, so I think GET is fine to start with.
13:44:38 <timbl> modelling arbirary HTTP methods would not be so useful IMHO
13:44:49 <jar> JAR suggested that a survey of RDF-in-the-wild (cases where people are using HTTP URIs as subjects of triples, where the URI yields a 200 response) would be instructive.
13:45:22 <timbl> http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswJarNotes20080630
13:45:26 <hhalpin> Hmm....
13:45:35 <hhalpin> We could ask Giovanni or some of the semweb serach engine people for stats on this.
13:46:20 <dbooth> dbooth has changed the topic to: http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswListofTerms
13:46:47 <hhalpin> we could each make a use-case.
13:47:35 <hhalpin> i was thinking of a "provenance-log" 
13:47:38 <hhalpin> in RDF.
13:47:40 <dbooth> dbooth has changed the topic to: http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswHome
13:48:02 <dbooth> Use cases: http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswQuestions
13:48:04 <hhalpin> of all HTTP methods sent by my user agents and the responses.
13:48:17 <dbooth> Topic: Use Cases / Questions
13:48:17 <Stuart> So harry, a provenance log wrt to what, ie. what are the items whose provenace you are interested in?
13:48:39 <hhalpin> let's say a URI changed in my data-set.
13:48:46 <hhalpin> s/URI/resource
13:48:54 <hhalpin> And I'm an e-scientist.
13:49:03 <Stuart> eg. from the earlier discussion are interested in the provenance of an HTTP operation?
13:49:09 <hhalpin> yep.
13:50:18 <dbooth> harry: A friend was building an ont to help people put students in groups, building it off of a trust ont and foaf, and other onts.  Sounded good until the germans changed their ont.
13:51:03 <dbooth> ... I want a log of when they changed their ont.  I sent this request on thursday and got a 200 with a particular cardinality restriction, then on friday the ont changed.
13:51:37 <jar> this is very concrete - nice
13:52:17 <dbooth> dbooth: maybe take a checksum when the ont is first used, and then when it;s used later if the checksum doesn't match, then flag a potential problem?
13:52:21 <dbooth> harry: yes
13:53:18 <timbl> Use cases - http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswHome ?
13:53:23 <timbl> "aims"
13:53:31 <dbooth> use cases: http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswQuestions
13:54:00 <Stuart> Well there are some response headers that can, will or should tell you when the resource was last modified.
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13:55:01 <hhalpin> checksum is a good analogy for my use case: let's say you have an app. do a check first to see what HTTP requests resulted in something, and when something changes in the stream of requests, please flag user..
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13:57:34 <jar> I will move TimBL's paragraph "people would like to store..." paragraph from AwwswHome to AwwswQuestions   later, after the meeting.
13:57:51 <hhalpin> So here's a use-case: give me a list of links you've followed. Include Link headers, Meta links, hypertext links, RDF links.
13:58:03 <timbl_> "If someone says something how does the other  person know what htat perioon said"  <-- too vague
13:58:27 <jar> and I'll make AwwswQuestions more prominent as a use case list
14:00:51 <jar> hhalpin: Someone should pick over the use case page carefully.
14:01:11 <hhalpin> timbl should have told us this earlier in GRDDL :)
14:01:42 <jar> timbl: Number 1 relates to the "GRDDL graph". One can build a system out of "GRDDL graphs".
14:02:13 <jar> David will go over the use cases page
14:02:27 <timbl_> This  just bcaome clear in teh RDFa discussions
14:02:58 <hhalpin> I'll add the use-case in RDF-graphs.
14:03:08 <hhalpin> RDF-graphs as a "log" for provenance purposes.
14:03:14 <hhalpin> 2 weeks is fine with me.
14:03:28 <Zakim> -Stuart
14:03:38 <Zakim> -DBooth
14:03:53 <hhalpin> I guess the game-plan is then once we get the use-cases.
14:04:09 <hhalpin> to go through list of terms/ontologies/rules and refine them till we get consensus.
14:04:12 <hhalpin> Sounds like a plan.
14:04:20 <timbl_> 'Number 1 relates to the "GRDDL graph". One can build a system out of "GRDDL graphs"."    should be more like   "One can' give a single set fo assertios but one can define a  function (like GrddlGraph(u)) which relates a  uri to a graph which a client WOULD get it it WERE to execute a given protocol/network algo, even though clients are not forced to do that
14:04:29 <Zakim> -jar
14:06:00 <dbooth> harry, i personally think the need for specific terms will arise in creating an ont and rules to answer the use cases.
14:06:20 <dbooth> so we may not need to specifically go through a terms list first.
14:14:40 <timbl> timbl has joined #awwsw
14:21:09 <jar> rrsagent, pointer
14:21:09 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2008/07/22-awwsw-irc#T14-21-09
14:21:28 <jar> rrsagent. draft minutes
14:21:35 <jar> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:21:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/22-awwsw-minutes.html jar
14:23:38 <jar> rrsagent, make logs public
14:35:00 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, timbl, in TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM
14:35:02 <Zakim> TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM has ended
14:35:04 <Zakim> Attendees were DBooth, +1.617.538.aaaa, jar, +44.186.528.aabb, Stuart, timbl, hhalpin
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