IRC log of xproc on 2008-07-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-xproc-irc
15:02:56 [Norm]
Meeting: XML Processing Model WG
15:02:56 [Norm]
Date: 17 July 2008
15:02:56 [Norm]
Agenda: http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2008/07/17-agenda
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Meeting: 119
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Chair: Norm
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Scribe: Norm
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ScribeNick: Norm
15:03:03 [Norm]
Regrets: Richard, Paul, Henry
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Zakim, what is the code ?
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+??P35
15:03:57 [Zakim]
the conference code is 97762 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), MoZ
15:04:06 [Norm]
Zakim, ??P35 is Vojtech
15:04:06 [Zakim]
+Vojtech; got it
15:04:17 [Norm]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:04:17 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Norm, Vojtech
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+??P44
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-??P44
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+??P44
15:04:31 [ruilopes]
Zakim, ?? is me
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+ruilopes; got it
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+??P45
15:04:47 [AndrewF]
AndrewF has joined #xproc
15:04:51 [Norm]
Zakim, ??P45 is MoZ
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+MoZ; got it
15:05:21 [alexmilowski]
alexmilowski has joined #xproc
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+??P49
15:06:00 [AndrewF]
zakim, ? is Andrew
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+Andrew; got it
15:06:07 [Norm]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:06:07 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Norm, Vojtech, ruilopes, MoZ, Andrew
15:06:32 [Zakim]
+Alex_Milowski
15:06:34 [Norm]
Present: Norm, Vojtech, Rui, Mohamed, Andrew, Alex
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Topic: Accept this agenda?
15:06:56 [Norm]
-> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2008/07/17-agenda
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Accepted.
15:07:18 [Norm]
Topic: Accept minutes from the previous meeting?
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-> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2008/07/03-minutes
15:07:26 [Norm]
Accepted.
15:07:37 [Norm]
Topic: Next meeting: telcon 24 July 2008?
15:07:46 [Norm]
Norm gives regrets, Henry has agreed to chair.
15:08:34 [Norm]
Topic: Open action items
15:08:42 [Norm]
Alex and Norm, get to work!
15:09:33 [Norm]
Topic: Concerns about unescape-markup
15:09:42 [Norm]
-> http://www.w3.org/mid/20080513130252.7EA8F393D5D@macpro.inf.ed.ac.uk
15:10:28 [Norm]
Norm summarizes Richard's mail.
15:10:53 [Norm]
Alex: The use case is things like RSS and things that have escaped markup in them.
15:11:31 [Norm]
Norm: I think we should say that the XML declaration if it appears is ignored, and any DOCTYPE declarations are ignored.
15:12:18 [Norm]
Alex: The algorithm that I use to do this that you wrap the text descendants in some kind of pseudo document element.
15:12:42 [Norm]
...So you can just run it through a parser.
15:13:55 [Norm]
Norm: I don't care if we make it an error or if we ignore it, but I think we should be consistent.
15:14:34 [Norm]
Alex: We could add an option to specify "treat like document
15:14:43 [Norm]
Norm: Isn't that making things more complicated?
15:15:06 [Norm]
Alex: You could get escaped markup from http-requests.
15:15:09 [Norm]
Zakim, who's making noise?
15:15:12 [MoZ]
Zakim, who is making noise?
15:15:20 [Zakim]
Norm, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 6 (91%), Vojtech (4%), Norm (15%), Alex_Milowski (42%)
15:15:29 [Norm]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:15:29 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Norm, Vojtech, ruilopes, MoZ, Andrew, Alex_Milowski
15:15:31 [Zakim]
MoZ, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Vojtech (9%), Norm (5%), Alex_Milowski (50%)
15:15:38 [Norm]
Zakim, mute Vojtech
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Vojtech should now be muted
15:15:47 [Norm]
Zakim, unmute Vojtech
15:15:48 [Zakim]
Vojtech should no longer be muted
15:16:09 [Norm]
Alex: You might really, truely get an HTML document.
15:16:52 [Norm]
...which would be escaped because text/html is not XML.
15:17:04 [Norm]
...I think we should say look, either treat the text as a document or treat it as a text entity.
15:17:24 [Norm]
...If you treat it as a document, then the default-namespace option is superflous.
15:17:37 [Norm]
...But any doctype declaration should do the right thing.
15:18:06 [Norm]
Zakim, mute alex
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Alex_Milowski should now be muted
15:18:10 [Norm]
Zakim, unmute alex
15:18:10 [Zakim]
Alex_Milowski should no longer be muted
15:18:14 [Norm]
Zakim, mute norm
15:18:14 [Zakim]
Norm should now be muted
15:18:18 [Norm]
Zakim, unmute norm
15:18:18 [Zakim]
Norm should no longer be muted
15:19:09 [Norm]
Norm: SO your idea is make the user decide, and then the only thing that's difficult is a XML declaration at the top of something that you're not treating as a document.
15:21:10 [Norm]
Vojtech: Why can't we just do the opposite of escape markup, just make it an error if the unescaped isn't an XML document.
15:21:28 [Norm]
Alex: Because RSS often contains sibling escaped elements, not a valid document.
15:25:29 [Norm]
Alex: The example in p:unescape-markup is wrong, the description element can't have the declaratin.
15:25:32 [Norm]
s/ratin/ration/
15:26:01 [Norm]
ACTION: Alex to fix the example in p:unescape-markup so the namespace declarations are percolated through
15:26:23 [Norm]
Norm: So I still see just two possibilities: add a new option, or declare that XML decls and DTDs are ignored.
15:26:48 [Norm]
Alex: What about the HTML case
15:27:03 [Norm]
Norm: You'd get the document, it just wouldn't be validated.
15:27:10 [Norm]
Alex: So no attribute defaulting?
15:27:39 [Norm]
Vojtech: I sort of don't like that there's no symmetry between escape-markup and unescape-markup.
15:27:49 [Norm]
...In one we insert a wrapper, in the other we don't remove it.
15:28:42 [Norm]
Alex: They are symmetrical, escape-markup escapes the children.
15:29:50 [Norm]
Norm: Let's take this to email. We don't seem to be making any more progress today.
15:30:32 [Norm]
Vojtech: It seems to me that there are two cases. If you use escape markup, you'll never produce something that contains an XML decl or doctype. So the only problem is text that comes from the outside.
15:30:45 [Norm]
...Maybe in that case we could provide an option to remove the containing element, so that we can handle doctypes or XML declarations.
15:31:13 [Norm]
Alex: I think that was my idea for a "treat as document" element.
15:31:49 [Norm]
Vojtech: So unescape-markup could remove the c:body wrapper and return the content.
15:33:45 [Norm]
Norm: Can we take this to email?
15:33:47 [Norm]
No objections
15:33:51 [Norm]
Topic: XQuery comments
15:34:17 [Norm]
Norm: Let's start with Andrew's comments first.
15:34:18 [Norm]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-comments/2008Jul/0000.html
15:34:43 [Norm]
Alex: I'm a little confused about invocation of XQuery and someone would want both a context node and a sequence of documents.
15:35:21 [Norm]
Norm: Yes, Andrew wants to be able to distinguish the source document from the default collection.
15:35:54 [Norm]
Alex: I don't understand from an XQuery context if it's comment to have a default collection and a context item?
15:37:24 [Norm]
...In XSLT, we say that the first node in the sequence is the context node.
15:37:45 [Norm]
Norm: Let's try making that explicit in the XQuery step and be consistent.
15:38:14 [Norm]
Proposal: Make XQuery consistent with XSLT wrt context node and default collection
15:38:26 [Norm]
Accepted.
15:39:24 [Norm]
Alex: Can we do a simple one, let's just adopt his description fo static and dynamic context.
15:39:28 [Norm]
Norm: Don't we already?
15:39:33 [Norm]
Alex: No
15:40:24 [Norm]
Norm: Ok, right, we have it for XProc but not for XQuery.
15:40:30 [Norm]
Alex: We should do it for both XSLT and XQuery
15:40:33 [Norm]
Norm: Yes.
15:40:46 [Norm]
ACTION: Norm to update the XSLT and XQuery steps to include static and dynamic context information
15:41:44 [Norm]
Norm: Now let's look at making a reference to an XQuery file
15:42:21 [Norm]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-comments/2008Jul/0010.html
15:43:38 [Norm]
Norm: You can't load an external query now, which I think we need to fix.
15:43:40 [alexmilowski]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-wg/2008Jul/0011.html
15:44:11 [Norm]
Alex: I could read it with http-request
15:45:23 [Norm]
Alex: You can do it with http-request, but input can't, and I don't see why.
15:47:01 [Norm]
Norm outlines his email
15:48:00 [Norm]
Alex: I can see two additions that would make this straightforward. We could make c:body the default wrapper.
15:48:16 [Norm]
...And I think it would be appropriate to say that you can do the conversion to base64 instead.
15:49:01 [Norm]
Alex: Based on media-type, it should be able to do something better.
15:50:24 [Norm]
...But a pipeline could still fail if it got back media types it couldn't process.
15:51:23 [Norm]
Mohamed: I'm opposed to changing p:document; I think we should do this with a step.
15:51:52 [Norm]
...I think we need a different p:load that's able to do this.
15:53:06 [Norm]
Norm: What about putting something else in p:input as an alternative to p:document
15:53:12 [Norm]
Mohamed: That would be ok to me.
15:53:27 [Norm]
Alex: There are other things out there, there's SPARQL, etc.
15:54:09 [Norm]
Mohamed: We have the same issue for RELAX NG compact syntax, and other places.
15:54:46 [Norm]
Norm: We need uri and wrapper
15:54:54 [Norm]
Mohamed: I think you also need encoding
15:55:41 [Norm]
Norm: What about binary vs. text?
15:55:46 [Norm]
Alex: We already have this language in http-request.
15:55:56 [Norm]
Norm: Ok, I see what you mean.
15:57:11 [Norm]
Alex: Having an option to tweak the charsets would also be handy.
15:57:47 [Norm]
...I think the default is, if it's not an XML media type, if it's not something you know is text, then you get base64.
15:58:07 [Norm]
...And then we have to decide about attributes on the wrapper.
15:58:30 [Norm]
...Basically, translation of the conversion we do on c:body, basically.
15:59:03 [Norm]
ACTION: Norm/Alex to write up a proposal to add this.
15:59:11 [Norm]
Topic: Any other business?
15:59:16 [Norm]
None heard.
15:59:20 [Norm]
Adjourned.
15:59:27 [Zakim]
-Norm
15:59:28 [Zakim]
-Vojtech
15:59:28 [Zakim]
-Andrew
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-ruilopes
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-MoZ
15:59:31 [Zakim]
-Alex_Milowski
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XML_PMWG()11:00AM has ended
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Attendees were Norm, Vojtech, ruilopes, MoZ, Andrew, Alex_Milowski
16:01:25 [Norm]
RRSAgent, set logs world-visible
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RRSAgent, draft minutes
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I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-xproc-minutes.html Norm
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