14:46:04 RRSAgent has joined #rdfa 14:46:04 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-irc 14:46:12 Zakim has joined #rdfa 14:46:57 zakim, this will be SW_SWD(RDFa) 14:46:57 ok, msporny; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 14 minutes 14:47:16 Meeting: RDF in XHTML TaskForce 14:47:27 Chair: Manu_Sporny 14:47:41 rrsagent, make log public 14:47:48 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:47:48 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-minutes.html msporny 14:49:15 previous http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html 14:49:30 Regrets: Michael_Hausenblas 14:49:35 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:49:35 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-minutes.html msporny 14:50:05 Present: Manu_Sporny 14:51:01 Regrets+ Ben_Adida 14:51:06 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:51:06 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-minutes.html msporny 14:52:58 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Jul/0044.html 14:53:01 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:53:01 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-minutes.html msporny 14:57:30 Ralph has joined #rdfa 14:58:51 Present+ Ralph_Swick 14:59:46 Good morning, Ralph :) 15:00:50 SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started 15:00:57 +McCarron 15:02:07 +Ralph 15:02:59 +??P40 15:03:03 zakim, I am ??P40 15:03:12 ShaneM has joined #rdfa 15:03:13 +msporny; got it 15:04:19 Regrets+ Mark_Birbeck 15:04:24 markbirbeck has joined #rdfa 15:04:27 Regrets+ Steven_Pemberton 15:04:45 Regrets+ markbirbeck 15:04:49 Sorry. :) 15:05:05 I'll be on IRC for a little while, but have to leave early to get kids. 15:05:20 +JeremyCarroll 15:05:22 -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/products/2 CR comments 15:05:40 Present+ Jeremy_Carroll 15:05:51 Have people seen this? http://www.umbel.org/ 15:06:44 scribe: Ralph 15:07:08 rrsagent, please make record public 15:07:39 ACTION: Ben to talk to Allan about CR ISSUE-122 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action15] 15:07:41 -- continues 15:08:04 ACTION: Jeremy to write up TQ's contribution for impl report and wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action16] 15:08:06 -- continues 15:08:13 Jeremy: I've written the report, will post soon 15:08:40 [DONE] ACTION: Manu to write up current issues with information resource vs. actual resource with regard to Audio RDF vocabulary. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action14] 15:09:14 http://rdfa.info/wiki/uri-vs-resource-ambiguity-problem 15:09:43 ACTION: Michael to rewrite and extend http://rdfa.info/wiki/Tutorials for RSS (maybe with seq) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action08] 15:09:45 -- continues 15:10:01 [DONE] ACTION: Shane to make ISSUE-121 editorial change and report back [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action13] 15:10:18 ACTION: Shane respond to commentor for ISSUE-121 15:10:22 JeremyCarroll has joined #rdfa 15:10:34 ACTION: Shane to write home page for SPREAD. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] 15:10:37 -- continues 15:10:47 ACTION: Ben followup with Fabien on getting his RDFa GRDDL transform transferred to W3C [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action01] 15:10:49 -- continues 15:11:05 http://www.topquadrant.com/w3c/RDFa/ is the current draft report 15:11:07 ACTION: Ben to follow up with Elias on JavaScript test harness + EARL [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action13] 15:11:10 -- continues 15:11:21 Ralph: do we consider this important enough to keep at this point? 15:11:35 Manu: they wanted to get it for the implementation report 15:12:26 ... it was going to make Michael and Ben's life easier to create the implementation report for Javascript 15:12:30 q+ to mention TQ's conformance statement 15:12:37 JeremyCarroll, you wanted to mention TQ's conformance statement 15:12:49 The conformance of the RDFa input depends on the conformance of the RDFa parser being used, currently Fabien Gandon's transform. Therefore we do not submit a separate report. 15:12:49 It is not clear what conformance tests we should do on the RDFa editing functionality. As is, the normal process of software maintenance should ensure that all output from the RDFa editor is legal RDFa input, with the expected triples, and most reasonable RDFa input can be produced with the editors. The autocomplete facility will currently generate qnames rather than CURIEs, since the other RDF formats currently do not use CURIEs. If and when other RDF 15:13:10 Jeremy: while writing the report for TopQuadrant, I noted the following: (see above) 15:13:39 ... any advice on anything better to say? 15:13:50 Shane: QNames are technically a subset of CURIEs 15:13:56 ... so you _are_ generating CURIEs 15:14:26 Jeremy: just a question about providing an implementation report for RDFa consumers 15:15:12 Manu: for the implementation report, we have a set of implementations that run against the RDFa test harness 15:15:32 ... if an RDFa parser is setup correctly it can be [automatically] run against the test harness 15:15:42 markbirbeck has joined #rdfa 15:15:42 ... so the expectation is to say whether or not you pass each test 15:16:07 Jeremy: the existing tests are for RDFa parsers. TopQuadrant integrates parsers written by others 15:16:24 ... for the editing functionality it's hard to know what to say 15:17:00 Manu: my understanding is that the implementation report planned to only cover parser tests 15:18:46 Ralph: perhaps TopQuadrant could show how to use its tools to generate the test examples (or their equivalent) 15:18:49 Jeremy: nice idea 15:19:01 q+ to discuss the implementation report 15:19:40 Manu: yes, would be nice to describe a full round-trip; generating then parsing RDFa 15:20:35 ShaneM, you wanted to discuss the implementation report 15:20:56 Shane: in the spec we only define conformance for _parsers_ 15:21:07 ... in the implementation report we can have sections that talk about other supporting tools 15:21:19 ... so, e.g., user agents; IE, Opera, FireFox 15:21:43 Ralph: We should say something about SearchMonkey as well. 15:22:06 Ralph: We could also point out the implementations that do a subset. 15:22:11 Ralph: yes, for example it would be good to mention SearchMonkey, even though they don't yet support all of RDFa 15:23:00 Shane: it's also good to document that browsers don't break when they're fed RDFa 15:23:15 ... though we don't actually have any user agent conformance clauses 15:23:29 [DONE] ACTION: Manu write haudio examples for wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action06] 15:23:47 Manu: these are 1-1 mappable to the microformat vocabulary 15:24:11 ... Toby Inkster has written a tool to intersperce RDFa in haudio microformat 15:24:21 ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action03] 15:24:25 -- continues 15:24:35 ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] 15:24:36 -- continues 15:24:45 ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action07] 15:24:48 -- continues 15:25:00 ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] 15:25:01 -- continues 15:25:29 Ralph: I hand-wrote a bunch of comments on that last week, never got to enter them :( 15:25:38 ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] 15:25:39 -- continues 15:25:59 q+ to ask about RDF and hVideo 15:26:06 Manu: there's been a lot of work in the SIOC vocabulary that has to do with posts and the authors of posts 15:26:34 ... SIOC is meant for bloggers and folks who post news 15:27:11 Shane: regarding haudio, Manu mentioned generalized media RDF. Is there a video RDF? 15:27:28 Manu: yes, there's a base vocabulary for media on which the audio and video vocabularies build 15:27:37 ... media builds off of Dublin Core 15:28:13 Shane: for example, how might one annotate IMDB with RDFa 15:28:35 Manu: this vocabulary is intended to help with that; marking up television episodes, all the actors, grips, etc. 15:28:56 ... we have 80-85% coverage of the use cases we've found so far 15:29:08 ... we've looked at a large number of Web sites that publish this sort of data 15:29:26 ... ties in with BBC comments on non-accessibility of microformats data, esp. the date format 15:30:12 ... the accessibility problem is that screen readers attempt to read out data that's only intended for the machines 15:30:30 ShaneM, you wanted to ask about RDF and hVideo 15:31:04 Jeremy: who's the BBC contact? 15:31:26 I've been chatting with Michael Smethurst at the BBC about Audio/Video/Media RDFa 15:33:22 Topic: HTML4, HTML5, and CR plans 15:34:02 Manu: we've been seeing more traffic on the lists noting that it's nice to have XHTML support but what about HTML4 and HTML5 15:34:18 ... we've pointed out that the markup won't break HTML4/5 tools 15:34:30 ... but the users want validation 15:35:15 Ralph: Well, HTML4 doesn't have a working group 15:35:29 q+ to note this issue should go through to ac review 15:35:32 Ralph: HTML5 has it in their charter to support RDFa plus some others 15:35:44 s/support/support extensibility for 15:36:28 Jeremy: this issue of the more extensive ambition of the RDFa folk won't go away 15:36:39 ... we do want RDFa used with HTML4 15:37:14 ... the conversations on the mailing list show that some just want to get the job done while others are concerned about conformance 15:37:38 ... I think we have to acknowledge that the discussion continues though we've made a particular choice and it's the right one 15:37:56 ... we've specified what can be specified correctly while acknowledging that some will use it with HTML4 15:38:12 ... the tone of the primer does not rule out RDFa+HTML4 even though we can't specify it 15:38:14 markbirbeck has joined #rdfa 15:38:14 q+ to discuss how to define ajn HTML4 profile 15:38:26 ... we know that _in practice_ RDFa+HTML4 is usable even though it won't validate 15:38:43 Manu: could we create something that would work with the W3C validator? 15:39:00 Shane: the W3C validator uses NSGMLS through a perl interface (opensp) 15:39:27 ... opensp in SGML mode 15:39:34 ... validating a document against a DTD 15:39:45 ... it will do this for any DTD that it is aware of 15:39:53 markbirbeck has joined #rdfa 15:40:06 Manu: could we create a DTD for RDFa+HTML4? 15:40:24 Shane: SGML mode does not understand @xmlns 15:40:53 ... so we'd need a different way to define prefixes or a way to persuade the validator to ignore @xmlns errors in certain types of documents 15:42:02 Ralph: we don't actually have a charter to do anything except XHTML 15:42:31 ... so we're on weak ground to ask for any changes in the validator 15:43:03 Shane: what would be the best way for us to support RDFa in an HTML4 environment? Does it make sense to push @xmlns into this environment or should we create another prefixing mechanism? 15:43:12 Manu: it would be really nice to not have to change anything 15:43:18 q+ 15:44:15 Manu: or add a flag to parsers indicating whether they're processing HTML4/5 and find a different attribute than @xmlns 15:44:19 Hey guys...really sorry I'm not there. However, I think the easiest way to get out of the @xmlns bind is via CURIEs, and not RDFa. 15:44:23 ... everything other than @xmlns maps cleanly 15:44:34 Shane: yes, everything else works fine 15:44:38 Will have to explain more either next week, or on the list. 15:44:46 Jeremy: how many actual HTML4 tools will have a problem with RDfa? 15:44:55 ... the validator doesn't matter in the big picture 15:44:57 (Unless I work on a strawman with Shane....) 15:45:05 Manu: the validators matter for adoption 15:45:16 I like the idea of @ns 15:45:27 ... authors don't want to hear complaints from their bosses about documents that don't validate 15:45:37 Jeremy: so just ask the validator to ignore XML namespaces 15:45:46 Shane: I think there is already a control for this 15:46:07 ... when it's validating in XML mode via a DTD it has to ignore namespace errors 15:46:14 Mark - it would be really great to hear your thoughts on this (on list, or via the wiki) 15:46:15 @ns="prefix URI prefix2 URI..." 15:46:34 Shane: I already have the code to patch the W3C validator to do this 15:46:45 ... but other authoring tools also have 'validate me' buttons 15:46:55 ... we'd want those other validators to also work 15:47:13 Manu...really sorry for absence. Speak to you all soon...gotta go. :) 15:47:15 ... but sure, we can tell people it's OK to put RDFa in HTML 15:47:41 ack sh 15:47:41 ShaneM, you wanted to discuss how to define ajn HTML4 profile 15:48:02 Manu: we can't say there's backing from any W3C process but we can point to a starting place 15:48:04 JeremyCarroll, you wanted to note this issue should go through to ac review and to 15:49:22 q+ to discuss html5 and namespaces 15:49:44 q+ 15:49:56 ack shaneM 15:49:56 ShaneM, you wanted to discuss html5 and namespaces 15:50:18 Ralph: I think the HTML5 spec will have to address something like namespaces 15:50:29 ... we should not get out ahead of that 15:50:37 ... whether they accept @xmlns or not, we need to wait 15:50:50 Shane: I disgree; we've overloaded @xmlns and that's a mistake 15:51:09 ... it's a convenience but in the real world @xmlns is not the way to extend grammars 15:51:27 ack msporny 15:51:30 ... if HTML5 does not define @xmlns we could still do something else and HTML5 wouldn't care 15:51:50 ... vocabulary extention needs something other than XML namespaces 15:52:25 Manu: the issue we're up against is how to stuff this into validators 15:52:39 Shane: I like the @ns= idea 15:53:40 Manu: it would be nice to have something that shows people how to put RDFa into HTML4/5 and get it validated 15:53:45 ... would the W3C object? 15:53:56 Ralph: no one moderates what we put in our wiki :) 15:54:06 Topic: RDFa Best Practices 15:54:27 Manu: it's becoming evident that there are right ways and wrong ways to use RDFa vocabularies 15:54:57 ... for example, I wasn't aware that the Dublin Core vocabulary is now a legacy vocabulary and we should really be using DC Terms 15:55:10 ... would be nice to have a tool that reminds people about current best practices 15:55:21 ... like a lint for RDFa 15:55:37 ... suggestions for improving markup or flagging mistakes 15:55:38 q+ about lint for rdfa/xhtml+rdfa 15:55:49 q+ to discuss lint for rdfa/xhtml+rdfa 15:55:55 ShaneM, you wanted to discuss lint for rdfa/xhtml+rdfa 15:56:13 Shane: there's a validator side-project that has a framework for doing this sort of thing 15:56:28 ... I'm certain that Olivier would welcome our help to do this 15:56:33 ... I'll even volunteer 15:56:45 ... the tricky part will be deciding the rules 15:56:56 ... the tool is very good about suggesting how you should have done X or Y 15:57:22 ... it was written to support the Appendix C validation of HTML 15:57:46 Manu: first thing is to come up with some best practices 15:57:49 ... document these in the wiki 15:58:03 ... when we get 10 or 15 we could roll them into the tool 15:58:16 ACTION: Start Best Practices Section on the rdfa.info wiki 15:58:20 Shane: makes sense 15:58:28 s/Start/Manu: Start 15:59:36 Topic: Misc 15:59:53 Shane: I'm especially interested in feedback on -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Jul/0048.html "Re: RDFa Primer comment" 16:00:06 ... we need to have a consistent message from this Task Force 16:00:11 Manu: agree 16:00:23 ... and we'll have to do more work on HTML4/5 before saying anything 16:00:28 [adjourned] 16:00:32 -McCarron 16:00:36 -msporny 16:00:42 -JeremyCarroll 16:00:43 -Ralph 16:00:43 SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended 16:00:44 Attendees were McCarron, Ralph, msporny, JeremyCarroll 16:00:47 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph 16:01:22 i/scribe: Ralph/Topic: Action Review 16:01:44 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph 16:02:09 zakim, bye 16:02:09 Zakim has left #rdfa 16:02:11 rrsagent, bye 16:02:11 I see 13 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-actions.rdf : 16:02:11 ACTION: Ben to talk to Allan about CR ISSUE-122 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action15] [1] 16:02:11 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-irc#T15-07-39 16:02:11 ACTION: Jeremy to write up TQ's contribution for impl report and wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action16] [2] 16:02:11 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-irc#T15-08-04 16:02:11 ACTION: Michael to rewrite and extend http://rdfa.info/wiki/Tutorials for RSS (maybe with seq) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action08] [3] 16:02:11 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-irc#T15-09-43 16:02:11 ACTION: Shane respond to commentor for ISSUE-121 [4] 16:02:11 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-irc#T15-10-18 16:02:11 ACTION: Shane to write home page for SPREAD. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] [5] 16:02:11 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-irc#T15-10-34 16:02:11 ACTION: Ben followup with Fabien on getting his RDFa GRDDL transform transferred to W3C [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action01] [6] 16:02:11 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-irc#T15-10-47 16:02:11 ACTION: Ben to follow up with Elias on JavaScript test harness + EARL [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action13] [7] 16:02:11 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-irc#T15-11-07 16:02:11 ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action03] [8] 16:02:11 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-irc#T15-24-21 16:02:11 ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] [9] 16:02:11 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-irc#T15-24-35 16:02:11 ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action07] [10] 16:02:11 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-irc#T15-24-45 16:02:11 ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] [11] 16:02:11 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-irc#T15-25-00 16:02:11 ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] [12] 16:02:11 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-irc#T15-25-38 16:02:11 ACTION: Start Best Practices Section on the rdfa.info wiki [13] 16:02:11 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-irc#T15-58-16