13:59:05 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #bpwg
13:59:05 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/07/15-bpwg-irc
13:59:07 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:59:07 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #bpwg
13:59:09 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be BPWG
13:59:10 <trackbot> Meeting: Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference
13:59:10 <trackbot> Date: 15 July 2008
13:59:10 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see MWI_BPWG(CTTF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
13:59:22 <francois> Chair: francois
13:59:39 <francois> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2008Jul/0009.html
13:59:54 <francois> Regrets: Pontus, rob, Aaron
14:00:02 <hgerlach> hgerlach has joined #bpwg
14:00:16 <jo> zakim, code
14:00:17 <Zakim> I don't understand 'code', jo
14:00:22 <francois> zakim, code?
14:00:22 <Zakim> the conference code is 2283 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), francois
14:00:28 <Zakim> MWI_BPWG(CTTF)10:00AM has now started
14:00:33 <jo> zakim, code?
14:00:33 <Zakim> the conference code is 2283 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jo
14:00:35 <Zakim> +Francois
14:00:56 <Zakim> +heiko
14:01:08 <hgerlach> hi
14:01:56 <SeanP> SeanP has joined #bpwg
14:02:55 <matt> Regrets+ Matt
14:03:09 <Zakim> +SeanP
14:06:20 <hgerlach> hgerlach has joined #bpwg
14:07:25 <francois> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:07:25 <Zakim> On the phone I see Francois, heiko, SeanP
14:07:50 <Zakim> +??P26
14:08:10 <jo> ??p26 is me
14:08:17 <jo> zakim, ??p26 is me
14:08:17 <Zakim> +jo; got it
14:09:23 <SeanP> Scribe: Sean
14:09:29 <SeanP> Scribenick: Sean
14:09:36 <hgerlach> +1
14:09:44 <SeanP> Francois: First topic is new draft.
14:09:54 <SeanP> Topic: New draft of CT Guidelines
14:10:11 <francois> -> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/CT/editors-drafts/Guidelines/080712 CT draft version 1l
14:10:14 <SeanP> Francois: Thanks Jo for creating the new draft.
14:11:15 <jo> me!
14:11:17 <hgerlach> heiko
14:11:18 <SeanP> Francois: New draft goes in the right direction; looks fantastic; seems clearer; like new table of contents.
14:11:53 <SeanP> Heiko: In 1.3 there is a mention that WML won't work.
14:12:09 <SeanP> ...At the beginning of the document this sounds like a killer.
14:12:26 <SeanP> ...could become major issue at beginning of document in scope.
14:12:47 <SeanP> Francois: I understand, but it needs to be said up front.
14:13:37 <jo> I think that is a reasonable presentational point. the point is made later on
14:13:50 <jo> we could remove it from the scope statement
14:14:13 <SeanP> Heiko: The question is whether a WAP gateway is the same as a CT proxy.
14:14:19 <hgerlach> +1
14:14:48 <SeanP> Francois: WML note could appear later on as long as it is somewhere.
14:14:56 <jo> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: REmove Caveat on WML from scoping statement
14:15:03 <francois> +1
14:15:13 <jo> +1
14:15:25 <SeanP> RESOLUTION: REmove Caveat on WML from scoping statement
14:16:16 <SeanP> Heiko: In 1.4, the requirements contain a link to the CT landscape.  Don't understand why we have 2 documents.
14:16:20 <jo> landscape document is not finished
14:17:00 <SeanP> Francois: Landscape document is not complete yet.  Need to revisit it in light of what we have done.  Will be published as a note.
14:17:12 <hgerlach> What are the plans on that item?
14:17:45 <SeanP> ...Landscape document is not included in CT Guidelines for size reasons.
14:18:33 <SeanP> Jo: I think it needs to be revisited too.  Main reason for doing the Landscape document was to kind of get warmed up and figure out what we were talking about.
14:18:54 <jo> timescale is asap, like every thing else :-)
14:19:21 <SeanP> Francois: We're focusing on the CT Guidelines because it is most important.  Once we get to last call, we can go back to the Landscape document.
14:19:45 <SeanP> Heiko: Next comment, in 3.1.4 the editorial note.
14:20:30 <SeanP> ...Don't think the segmenting of a page will be affected by the no-cache directive.
14:20:48 <SeanP> Francois:  Do we really need a section on pagination?
14:21:38 <jo> the editorial note is there only because there is a possible confusion
14:22:17 <SeanP> ...Following no-cache for pagination would mean that the CT proxy could not paginate and the user could possibly not read the page.
14:22:51 <SeanP> Francois: My thinking is that section 3.1.4 is not needed.
14:22:59 <hgerlach> q+
14:23:15 <francois> ack hgerlach 
14:23:28 <SeanP> Jo: Thinking as a content provider, the CT provider may not want to send content that will be paginated.
14:23:37 <SeanP> ...Willing to take the section out.
14:24:16 <SeanP> Heiko: Should the subsequent pages contain the no-cache directive.
14:24:40 <SeanP> Francois: Why don't we take this section out for now and see if anyone has objections later.
14:24:54 <francois> ACTION: daoust to send a summary of the pagination note (3.1.4) to the mailing-list
14:24:54 <trackbot> Created ACTION-811 - Send a summary of the pagination note (3.1.4) to the mailing-list [on François Daoust - due 2008-07-22].
14:25:32 <SeanP> Heiko: In 3.1.5.3, there is another editorial note that I would like to understand.
14:25:47 <SeanP> ...What does it mean about standing in the way?
14:26:50 <SeanP> Francois: What it means is that the proxy should not block the origin server from providing different representations.
14:29:53 <SeanP> Jo: This is the point that the user should be able to express his/her preferences to the origin server if possible.  Need to think about this more.
14:35:40 <SeanP> Heiko: 3.2.3.1--Use of Vary
14:36:12 <SeanP> ...This content type of application/vnd.wap.xhtml+xml is mentioned here but not in the heuristics.
14:36:48 <SeanP> ...should be mentioned in heuristics.
14:37:41 <SeanP> Francois: We took a resolution to remove mention of content types in the document, but I can't remember why.
14:38:02 <francois> ACTION: daoust to dig in the archives to check reason not to mention content types in the list of heuristics
14:38:02 <trackbot> Created ACTION-812 - Dig in the archives to check reason not to mention content types in the list of heuristics [on François Daoust - due 2008-07-22].
14:38:03 <SeanP> Jo and Sean: We can't remember why either.
14:38:45 <SeanP> Heiko:  3.3.6.  There are three question marks.  What are these about?
14:38:54 <SeanP> Jo:  Bad link, that's all.
14:39:12 <SeanP> ...supposed to be a reference to mobileOK Basic.
14:40:38 <SeanP> Heiko: Linearization, why is this in heuristics?
14:40:54 <SeanP> Francois:  Had discussions about this and decided to put it here.
14:41:25 <SeanP> Heiko: 3.3.6.2 Link Re-writing
14:42:46 <SeanP> Francois: There requirement was that it must be possible to make a secure end to end connection, not that it must make a secure end-to-end connection.
14:42:59 <SeanP> ...That's why there is the requirement to notify the user.
14:43:30 <SeanP> Heiko: Don't like this.
14:43:52 <SeanP> ...For a proxy it is impossible to have the end-to-end connectivity.
14:44:31 <SeanP> Francois: That is why we mention the link re-writing since it will break the end-to-end connectivity.
14:45:04 <SeanP> Heiko: Maybe add a sentence about the user being able to get end-to-end connectivity as an option.
14:45:34 <SeanP> Francois:  That's why we have the sentence about the user being able to avoid the link re-writing.
14:46:03 <SeanP> ...Could you write something up about your ideas about this section, Heiko?
14:46:22 <hgerlach> +1
14:46:44 <francois> ACTION: heiko to draft some clearer wording of 3.3.6.2 on HTTPS link re-writing
14:46:44 <trackbot> Created ACTION-813 - Draft some clearer wording of 3.3.6.2 on HTTPS link re-writing [on Heiko Gerlach - due 2008-07-22].
14:47:37 <SeanP> Heiko: Comment about the example.  Saw that you removed allow/disallow list.  OK, but I don't see how you can detect that a 200 response == a 406
14:48:31 <SeanP> Francois:  Difficult to detect; can include a LINK element.
14:48:57 <SeanP> Heiko:  Why remove allow/disallow lists?
14:49:40 <SeanP> Francois: Not completely resolved to remove the lists, but I see Jo's point about not mentioning them at all since they cause a lot of disagreements.
14:50:08 <hgerlach> +1ok
14:50:20 <SeanP> ...There is a heuristic in the document that allows them without actually mentioning them.
14:50:52 <SeanP> Jo: I agree that 3.1.5.2 is very densely worded and I may try to rewrite it, but it says what it means.
14:51:46 <SeanP> Heiko: Had some trouble understanding document without rereading it several times.
14:52:19 <SeanP> Jo: If you have some problems with how something is worded, feel free to contribute clearer wording.
14:53:20 <SeanP> Jo: I believe that we are very close to getting there--I think one more revision is needed; hopefully no more than 2 more.
14:53:39 <SeanP> Francois: Agree that we are close.
14:54:00 <SeanP> Topic: Review and close Jo's actions
14:54:05 <francois> ACTION-732?
14:54:05 <trackbot> ACTION-732 -- Jo Rabin to raise an issue on 4.4 of CT draft 1j noting that HTTPS links should only be rewritten with HTTPS links and not HTTP links -- due 2008-04-17 -- PENDINGREVIEW
14:54:05 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/732
14:55:00 <francois> Close ACTION-732
14:55:00 <trackbot> ACTION-732 Raise an issue on 4.4 of CT draft 1j noting that HTTPS links should only be rewritten with HTTPS links and not HTTP links closed
14:55:05 <francois> ACTION-766?
14:55:05 <trackbot> ACTION-766 -- Jo Rabin to add note describing the circumstances of choosing the X-Device prefix and explaining that it's not necessarily the actual device headers and other weasel words, yada yada -- due 2008-06-10 -- PENDINGREVIEW
14:55:05 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/766
14:55:10 <SeanP> Francois:  Action is done, discussion can be raised if needed.
14:55:33 <francois> Close ACTION-766
14:55:33 <trackbot> ACTION-766 Add note describing the circumstances of choosing the X-Device prefix and explaining that it's not necessarily the actual device headers and other weasel words, yada yada closed
14:55:37 <francois> ACTION-770?
14:55:37 <trackbot> ACTION-770 -- Jo Rabin to remove "semi-persistent" in 3.2.3 -- due 2008-06-17 -- PENDINGREVIEW
14:55:37 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/770
14:56:00 <francois> Close ACTION-770
14:56:00 <trackbot> ACTION-770 Remove "semi-persistent" in 3.2.3 closed
14:56:04 <francois> ACTION-777?
14:56:04 <trackbot> ACTION-777 -- Jo Rabin to edit 4.1.2 according to above resolution -- due 2008-06-23 -- OPEN
14:56:04 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/777
14:56:10 <SeanP> Francois: 770 could trigger more discussion.
14:57:02 <francois> Close ACTION-777
14:57:02 <trackbot> ACTION-777 Edit 4.1.2 according to above resolution closed
14:57:06 <francois> ACTION-778?
14:57:06 <trackbot> ACTION-778 -- Jo Rabin to add the stuff on possible use of OPTIONS to the appendix -- due 2008-06-23 -- PENDINGREVIEW
14:57:06 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/778
14:57:17 <francois> Close ACTION-778
14:57:17 <trackbot> ACTION-778 Add the stuff on possible use of OPTIONS to the appendix closed
14:57:23 <francois> ACTION-779?
14:57:23 <trackbot> ACTION-779 -- Jo Rabin to transcribe points 7 8 9 and 11 of ISSUE-223 into Scope for future work -- due 2008-06-23 -- PENDINGREVIEW
14:57:23 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/779
14:57:46 <francois> Close ACTION-779
14:57:46 <trackbot> ACTION-779 Transcribe points 7 8 9 and 11 of ISSUE-223 into Scope for future work closed
14:57:51 <francois> ACTION-780?
14:57:51 <trackbot> ACTION-780 -- Jo Rabin to add text to section 4.4 referencing above resolution on mobikeOK -- due 2008-06-23 -- PENDINGREVIEW
14:57:51 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/780
14:58:10 <francois> Close ACTION-780
14:58:10 <trackbot> ACTION-780 Add text to section 4.4 referencing above resolution on mobikeOK closed
14:58:14 <francois> ACTION-781
14:58:16 <francois> ACTION-781?
14:58:16 <trackbot> ACTION-781 -- Jo Rabin to enact changes sugegsted by the previous 4 resolutions -- due 2008-06-23 -- OPEN
14:58:16 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/781
14:58:58 <francois> Close ACTION-781
14:58:58 <trackbot> ACTION-781 Enact changes sugegsted by the previous 4 resolutions closed
14:59:01 <francois> ACTION-782?
14:59:01 <trackbot> ACTION-782 -- Jo Rabin to draft text on which aspects of the CT guidelines should be followed by e.g. Opera Mini -- due 2008-06-23 -- PENDINGREVIEW
14:59:01 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/782
14:59:33 <francois> Close ACTION-782
14:59:33 <trackbot> ACTION-782 Draft text on which aspects of the CT guidelines should be followed by e.g. Opera Mini closed
14:59:48 <jo> :-)
15:00:39 <SeanP> Francois: Everyone should review the document and send comments to mailing list.
15:01:40 <Zakim> -heiko
15:01:41 <Zakim> -jo
15:01:42 <Zakim> -Francois
15:01:49 <francois> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:01:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/15-bpwg-minutes.html francois
15:01:51 <Zakim> -SeanP
15:01:53 <Zakim> MWI_BPWG(CTTF)10:00AM has ended
15:01:55 <Zakim> Attendees were Francois, heiko, SeanP, jo
15:02:09 <francois> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:02:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/15-bpwg-minutes.html francois
15:02:35 <francois> Regrets+ Bryan
15:02:36 <francois> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:02:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/15-bpwg-minutes.html francois
15:05:00 <francois> s/Scribenick: Sean/ScribeNick: SeanP/
15:05:02 <francois> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:05:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/15-bpwg-minutes.html francois
15:15:11 <francois> RRSAgent, bye
15:15:11 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/15-bpwg-actions.rdf :
15:15:11 <RRSAgent> ACTION: daoust to send a summary of the pagination note (3.1.4) to the mailing-list [1]
15:15:11 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/15-bpwg-irc#T14-24-54
15:15:11 <RRSAgent> ACTION: daoust to dig in the archives to check reason not to mention content types in the list of heuristics [2]
15:15:11 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/15-bpwg-irc#T14-38-02
15:15:11 <RRSAgent> ACTION: heiko to draft some clearer wording of 3.3.6.2 on HTTPS link re-writing [3]
15:15:11 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/15-bpwg-irc#T14-46-44
15:15:15 <francois> zakim, bye
15:15:15 <Zakim> Zakim has left #bpwg