IRC log of bpwg on 2008-07-15

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:59:05 [RRSAgent]

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/07/15-bpwg-irc

13:59:07 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs public

13:59:07 [Zakim]

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13:59:09 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be BPWG

13:59:10 [trackbot]

Meeting: Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference

13:59:10 [trackbot]

Date: 15 July 2008

13:59:10 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot; I see MWI_BPWG(CTTF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute

13:59:22 [francois]

Chair: francois

13:59:39 [francois]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2008Jul/0009.html

13:59:54 [francois]

Regrets: Pontus, rob, Aaron

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14:00:16 [jo]

zakim, code

14:00:17 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'code', jo

14:00:22 [francois]

zakim, code?

14:00:22 [Zakim]

the conference code is 2283 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), francois

14:00:28 [Zakim]

MWI_BPWG(CTTF)10:00AM has now started

14:00:33 [jo]

zakim, code?

14:00:33 [Zakim]

the conference code is 2283 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jo

14:00:35 [Zakim]

+Francois

14:00:56 [Zakim]

+heiko

14:01:08 [hgerlach]

hi

14:01:56 [SeanP]

SeanP has joined #bpwg

14:02:55 [matt]

Regrets+ Matt

14:03:09 [Zakim]

+SeanP

14:06:20 [hgerlach]

hgerlach has joined #bpwg

14:07:25 [francois]

zakim, who is on the phone?

14:07:25 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Francois, heiko, SeanP

14:07:50 [Zakim]

+??P26

14:08:10 [jo]

??p26 is me

14:08:17 [jo]

zakim, ??p26 is me

14:08:17 [Zakim]

+jo; got it

14:09:23 [SeanP]

Scribe: Sean

14:09:29 [SeanP]

Scribenick: Sean

14:09:36 [hgerlach]

+1

14:09:44 [SeanP]

Francois: First topic is new draft.

14:09:54 [SeanP]

Topic: New draft of CT Guidelines

14:10:11 [francois]

-> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/CT/editors-drafts/Guidelines/080712 CT draft version 1l

14:10:14 [SeanP]

Francois: Thanks Jo for creating the new draft.

14:11:15 [jo]

me!

14:11:17 [hgerlach]

heiko

14:11:18 [SeanP]

Francois: New draft goes in the right direction; looks fantastic; seems clearer; like new table of contents.

14:11:53 [SeanP]

Heiko: In 1.3 there is a mention that WML won't work.

14:12:09 [SeanP]

...At the beginning of the document this sounds like a killer.

14:12:26 [SeanP]

...could become major issue at beginning of document in scope.

14:12:47 [SeanP]

Francois: I understand, but it needs to be said up front.

14:13:37 [jo]

I think that is a reasonable presentational point. the point is made later on

14:13:50 [jo]

we could remove it from the scope statement

14:14:13 [SeanP]

Heiko: The question is whether a WAP gateway is the same as a CT proxy.

14:14:19 [hgerlach]

+1

14:14:48 [SeanP]

Francois: WML note could appear later on as long as it is somewhere.

14:14:56 [jo]

PROPOSED RESOLUTION: REmove Caveat on WML from scoping statement

14:15:03 [francois]

+1

14:15:13 [jo]

+1

14:15:25 [SeanP]

RESOLUTION: REmove Caveat on WML from scoping statement

14:16:16 [SeanP]

Heiko: In 1.4, the requirements contain a link to the CT landscape. Don't understand why we have 2 documents.

14:16:20 [jo]

landscape document is not finished

14:17:00 [SeanP]

Francois: Landscape document is not complete yet. Need to revisit it in light of what we have done. Will be published as a note.

14:17:12 [hgerlach]

What are the plans on that item?

14:17:45 [SeanP]

...Landscape document is not included in CT Guidelines for size reasons.

14:18:33 [SeanP]

Jo: I think it needs to be revisited too. Main reason for doing the Landscape document was to kind of get warmed up and figure out what we were talking about.

14:18:54 [jo]

timescale is asap, like every thing else :-)

14:19:21 [SeanP]

Francois: We're focusing on the CT Guidelines because it is most important. Once we get to last call, we can go back to the Landscape document.

14:19:45 [SeanP]

Heiko: Next comment, in 3.1.4 the editorial note.

14:20:30 [SeanP]

...Don't think the segmenting of a page will be affected by the no-cache directive.

14:20:48 [SeanP]

Francois: Do we really need a section on pagination?

14:21:38 [jo]

the editorial note is there only because there is a possible confusion

14:22:17 [SeanP]

...Following no-cache for pagination would mean that the CT proxy could not paginate and the user could possibly not read the page.

14:22:51 [SeanP]

Francois: My thinking is that section 3.1.4 is not needed.

14:22:59 [hgerlach]

q+

14:23:15 [francois]

ack hgerlach

14:23:28 [SeanP]

Jo: Thinking as a content provider, the CT provider may not want to send content that will be paginated.

14:23:37 [SeanP]

...Willing to take the section out.

14:24:16 [SeanP]

Heiko: Should the subsequent pages contain the no-cache directive.

14:24:40 [SeanP]

Francois: Why don't we take this section out for now and see if anyone has objections later.

14:24:54 [francois]

ACTION: daoust to send a summary of the pagination note (3.1.4) to the mailing-list

14:24:54 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-811 - Send a summary of the pagination note (3.1.4) to the mailing-list [on François Daoust - due 2008-07-22].

14:25:32 [SeanP]

Heiko: In 3.1.5.3, there is another editorial note that I would like to understand.

14:25:47 [SeanP]

...What does it mean about standing in the way?

14:26:50 [SeanP]

Francois: What it means is that the proxy should not block the origin server from providing different representations.

14:29:53 [SeanP]

Jo: This is the point that the user should be able to express his/her preferences to the origin server if possible. Need to think about this more.

14:35:40 [SeanP]

Heiko: 3.2.3.1--Use of Vary

14:36:12 [SeanP]

...This content type of application/vnd.wap.xhtml+xml is mentioned here but not in the heuristics.

14:36:48 [SeanP]

...should be mentioned in heuristics.

14:37:41 [SeanP]

Francois: We took a resolution to remove mention of content types in the document, but I can't remember why.

14:38:02 [francois]

ACTION: daoust to dig in the archives to check reason not to mention content types in the list of heuristics

14:38:02 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-812 - Dig in the archives to check reason not to mention content types in the list of heuristics [on François Daoust - due 2008-07-22].

14:38:03 [SeanP]

Jo and Sean: We can't remember why either.

14:38:45 [SeanP]

Heiko: 3.3.6. There are three question marks. What are these about?

14:38:54 [SeanP]

Jo: Bad link, that's all.

14:39:12 [SeanP]

...supposed to be a reference to mobileOK Basic.

14:40:38 [SeanP]

Heiko: Linearization, why is this in heuristics?

14:40:54 [SeanP]

Francois: Had discussions about this and decided to put it here.

14:41:25 [SeanP]

Heiko: 3.3.6.2 Link Re-writing

14:42:46 [SeanP]

Francois: There requirement was that it must be possible to make a secure end to end connection, not that it must make a secure end-to-end connection.

14:42:59 [SeanP]

...That's why there is the requirement to notify the user.

14:43:30 [SeanP]

Heiko: Don't like this.

14:43:52 [SeanP]

...For a proxy it is impossible to have the end-to-end connectivity.

14:44:31 [SeanP]

Francois: That is why we mention the link re-writing since it will break the end-to-end connectivity.

14:45:04 [SeanP]

Heiko: Maybe add a sentence about the user being able to get end-to-end connectivity as an option.

14:45:34 [SeanP]

Francois: That's why we have the sentence about the user being able to avoid the link re-writing.

14:46:03 [SeanP]

...Could you write something up about your ideas about this section, Heiko?

14:46:22 [hgerlach]

+1

14:46:44 [francois]

ACTION: heiko to draft some clearer wording of 3.3.6.2 on HTTPS link re-writing

14:46:44 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-813 - Draft some clearer wording of 3.3.6.2 on HTTPS link re-writing [on Heiko Gerlach - due 2008-07-22].

14:47:37 [SeanP]

Heiko: Comment about the example. Saw that you removed allow/disallow list. OK, but I don't see how you can detect that a 200 response == a 406

14:48:31 [SeanP]

Francois: Difficult to detect; can include a LINK element.

14:48:57 [SeanP]

Heiko: Why remove allow/disallow lists?

14:49:40 [SeanP]

Francois: Not completely resolved to remove the lists, but I see Jo's point about not mentioning them at all since they cause a lot of disagreements.

14:50:08 [hgerlach]

+1ok

14:50:20 [SeanP]

...There is a heuristic in the document that allows them without actually mentioning them.

14:50:52 [SeanP]

Jo: I agree that 3.1.5.2 is very densely worded and I may try to rewrite it, but it says what it means.

14:51:46 [SeanP]

Heiko: Had some trouble understanding document without rereading it several times.

14:52:19 [SeanP]

Jo: If you have some problems with how something is worded, feel free to contribute clearer wording.

14:53:20 [SeanP]

Jo: I believe that we are very close to getting there--I think one more revision is needed; hopefully no more than 2 more.

14:53:39 [SeanP]

Francois: Agree that we are close.

14:54:00 [SeanP]

Topic: Review and close Jo's actions

14:54:05 [francois]

ACTION-732?

14:54:05 [trackbot]

ACTION-732 -- Jo Rabin to raise an issue on 4.4 of CT draft 1j noting that HTTPS links should only be rewritten with HTTPS links and not HTTP links -- due 2008-04-17 -- PENDINGREVIEW

14:54:05 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/732

14:55:00 [francois]

Close ACTION-732

14:55:00 [trackbot]

ACTION-732 Raise an issue on 4.4 of CT draft 1j noting that HTTPS links should only be rewritten with HTTPS links and not HTTP links closed

14:55:05 [francois]

ACTION-766?

14:55:05 [trackbot]

ACTION-766 -- Jo Rabin to add note describing the circumstances of choosing the X-Device prefix and explaining that it's not necessarily the actual device headers and other weasel words, yada yada -- due 2008-06-10 -- PENDINGREVIEW

14:55:05 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/766

14:55:10 [SeanP]

Francois: Action is done, discussion can be raised if needed.

14:55:33 [francois]

Close ACTION-766

14:55:33 [trackbot]

ACTION-766 Add note describing the circumstances of choosing the X-Device prefix and explaining that it's not necessarily the actual device headers and other weasel words, yada yada closed

14:55:37 [francois]

ACTION-770?

14:55:37 [trackbot]

ACTION-770 -- Jo Rabin to remove "semi-persistent" in 3.2.3 -- due 2008-06-17 -- PENDINGREVIEW

14:55:37 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/770

14:56:00 [francois]

Close ACTION-770

14:56:00 [trackbot]

ACTION-770 Remove "semi-persistent" in 3.2.3 closed

14:56:04 [francois]

ACTION-777?

14:56:04 [trackbot]

ACTION-777 -- Jo Rabin to edit 4.1.2 according to above resolution -- due 2008-06-23 -- OPEN

14:56:04 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/777

14:56:10 [SeanP]

Francois: 770 could trigger more discussion.

14:57:02 [francois]

Close ACTION-777

14:57:02 [trackbot]

ACTION-777 Edit 4.1.2 according to above resolution closed

14:57:06 [francois]

ACTION-778?

14:57:06 [trackbot]

ACTION-778 -- Jo Rabin to add the stuff on possible use of OPTIONS to the appendix -- due 2008-06-23 -- PENDINGREVIEW

14:57:06 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/778

14:57:17 [francois]

Close ACTION-778

14:57:17 [trackbot]

ACTION-778 Add the stuff on possible use of OPTIONS to the appendix closed

14:57:23 [francois]

ACTION-779?

14:57:23 [trackbot]

ACTION-779 -- Jo Rabin to transcribe points 7 8 9 and 11 of ISSUE-223 into Scope for future work -- due 2008-06-23 -- PENDINGREVIEW

14:57:23 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/779

14:57:46 [francois]

Close ACTION-779

14:57:46 [trackbot]

ACTION-779 Transcribe points 7 8 9 and 11 of ISSUE-223 into Scope for future work closed

14:57:51 [francois]

ACTION-780?

14:57:51 [trackbot]

ACTION-780 -- Jo Rabin to add text to section 4.4 referencing above resolution on mobikeOK -- due 2008-06-23 -- PENDINGREVIEW

14:57:51 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/780

14:58:10 [francois]

Close ACTION-780

14:58:10 [trackbot]

ACTION-780 Add text to section 4.4 referencing above resolution on mobikeOK closed

14:58:14 [francois]

ACTION-781

14:58:16 [francois]

ACTION-781?

14:58:16 [trackbot]

ACTION-781 -- Jo Rabin to enact changes sugegsted by the previous 4 resolutions -- due 2008-06-23 -- OPEN

14:58:16 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/781

14:58:58 [francois]

Close ACTION-781

14:58:58 [trackbot]

ACTION-781 Enact changes sugegsted by the previous 4 resolutions closed

14:59:01 [francois]

ACTION-782?

14:59:01 [trackbot]

ACTION-782 -- Jo Rabin to draft text on which aspects of the CT guidelines should be followed by e.g. Opera Mini -- due 2008-06-23 -- PENDINGREVIEW

14:59:01 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/782

14:59:33 [francois]

Close ACTION-782

14:59:33 [trackbot]

ACTION-782 Draft text on which aspects of the CT guidelines should be followed by e.g. Opera Mini closed

14:59:48 [jo]

:-)

15:00:39 [SeanP]

Francois: Everyone should review the document and send comments to mailing list.

15:01:40 [Zakim]

-heiko

15:01:41 [Zakim]

-jo

15:01:42 [Zakim]

-Francois

15:01:49 [francois]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

15:01:49 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/15-bpwg-minutes.html francois

15:01:51 [Zakim]

-SeanP

15:01:53 [Zakim]

MWI_BPWG(CTTF)10:00AM has ended

15:01:55 [Zakim]

Attendees were Francois, heiko, SeanP, jo

15:02:09 [francois]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

15:02:09 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/15-bpwg-minutes.html francois

15:02:35 [francois]

Regrets+ Bryan

15:02:36 [francois]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

15:02:36 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/15-bpwg-minutes.html francois

15:05:00 [francois]

s/Scribenick: Sean/ScribeNick: SeanP/

15:05:02 [francois]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

15:05:02 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/15-bpwg-minutes.html francois

15:15:11 [francois]

RRSAgent, bye

15:15:11 [RRSAgent]

I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/15-bpwg-actions.rdf :

15:15:11 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: daoust to send a summary of the pagination note (3.1.4) to the mailing-list [1]

15:15:11 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/15-bpwg-irc#T14-24-54

15:15:11 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: daoust to dig in the archives to check reason not to mention content types in the list of heuristics [2]

15:15:11 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/15-bpwg-irc#T14-38-02

15:15:11 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: heiko to draft some clearer wording of 3.3.6.2 on HTTPS link re-writing [3]

15:15:11 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/15-bpwg-irc#T14-46-44

15:15:15 [francois]

zakim, bye

15:15:15 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #bpwg