IRC log of ua on 2008-07-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:10:54 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
17:10:54 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-ua-irc
17:11:03 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, set logs public
17:11:17 [AllanJ]
zakim, this will be wai_u
17:11:17 [Zakim]
ok, AllanJ; I see WAI_UAWG()2:00PM scheduled to start in 49 minutes
17:26:38 [oedipus]
oedipus has joined #ua
17:48:52 [AllanJ]
title: UAWG Telecon
17:49:02 [oedipus]
aloha, jim! thanks -- sorry for no explanation - health and infrastructural problems both
17:49:13 [oedipus]
i will scribe (my penance, part 1)
17:49:42 [AllanJ]
agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JulSep/0012.html
17:58:09 [oedipus]
Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
17:58:13 [oedipus]
ScribeNick: oedipus
17:58:21 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:58:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-ua-minutes.html oedipus
18:00:03 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
18:00:07 [oedipus]
chair: Jim
18:00:26 [jeanne]
zakim, code?
18:00:26 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jeanne
18:00:36 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()2:00PM has now started
18:00:43 [Zakim]
+Gregory_Rosmaita
18:00:49 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
18:01:13 [Zakim]
+ +1.512.206.aaaa
18:01:20 [Jan]
Jan has joined #ua
18:01:50 [AllanJ]
zakim, +1.512.106.aaaa is really allanj
18:01:50 [Zakim]
sorry, AllanJ, I do not recognize a party named '+1.512.106.aaaa'
18:01:56 [oedipus]
zakim, aaaa is Jim_Allan
18:01:57 [Zakim]
+Jim_Allan; got it
18:02:19 [Zakim]
+??P8
18:02:47 [oedipus]
zakim, ??P8 is Jan_Richards
18:02:47 [Zakim]
+Jan_Richards; got it
18:02:54 [Zakim]
+Judy
18:02:55 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:02:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-ua-minutes.html oedipus
18:03:09 [oedipus]
meeting: User Agent Weekly Teleconference
18:03:11 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:03:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-ua-minutes.html oedipus
18:03:59 [Judy]
Judy has joined #ua
18:04:05 [Judy]
zakim, who's here?
18:04:05 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Gregory_Rosmaita, Jeanne, Jim_Allan, Jan_Richards, Judy
18:04:07 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Judy, Jan, jeanne, oedipus, RRSAgent, Zakim, AllanJ
18:04:47 [oedipus]
regrets: Kelly_Ford
18:05:01 [oedipus]
regrets+ Alan_Cantor
18:05:04 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:05:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-ua-minutes.html oedipus
18:05:49 [oedipus]
TOPIC: Regrets, agenda requests, comments?
18:06:02 [oedipus]
JA: mark may join
18:06:07 [oedipus]
JB: was here last week
18:06:11 [oedipus]
JB: agenda additions?
18:06:48 [oedipus]
JA: noticed that working on success criteria, not specific guidelines
18:06:53 [oedipus]
JB: everything with 3 numbers
18:07:05 [oedipus]
JA: may be confusing; need to be reworded so are testable
18:07:24 [oedipus]
JB: at least 1 (4.1)
18:07:40 [oedipus]
JA: everything else working on in area are SC - normative bits for keyboard access
18:07:45 [oedipus]
JB: level should be working on?
18:07:48 [oedipus]
JA: yes
18:08:07 [oedipus]
JA: full keyboard access has a lot that needs to be included - bindings, remappings, etc.
18:08:17 [oedipus]
JA: how far did we get?
18:08:41 [oedipus]
JB: new block of proposals from Jeanne; sorted out 1 or 2 and identified 1 or 2 for follow up
18:09:09 [oedipus]
JB: move forward from that point - if need to backtrack for wordsmithing, can check at end of meeting
18:09:15 [oedipus]
JB: ok?
18:09:18 [oedipus]
JA: fine
18:09:35 [oedipus]
TOPIC: Review of Action Items
18:09:43 [oedipus]
ACTION: SH draft new rationale text for 4.1 keyboard shortcuts
18:10:08 [Zakim]
+Mark_Hakkinen
18:10:10 [oedipus]
trackbot, drop action 1
18:10:42 [oedipus]
rrsagent, drop action 1
18:11:08 [oedipus]
JA: Jan? resizing window techs
18:11:28 [oedipus]
JR: examined with Jeanne and am ok with what we ended up with - Jeanne did you send to group?
18:11:36 [oedipus]
JR: one piece in following URI
18:11:42 [Jan]
Keyboard Operation: All functionality can be operated via the keyboard using sequential and/or direct keyboard commands that do not require specific timings for individual keystrokes, except where the underlying function requires input that depends on the path of the user's movement and not just the endpoints (e.g., free hand drawing). This does not forbid and should not discourage providing...
18:11:42 [jeanne]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2008/keyboardProposals20080709.html
18:11:43 [Jan]
...mouse input or other input methods in addition to keyboard operation.
18:11:55 [Jan]
4.1.1
18:12:03 [oedipus]
Jeanne: updated
18:12:08 [oedipus]
JR: am happy
18:12:22 [oedipus]
JA: reading - confused - where does it adress resizing windows?
18:12:39 [oedipus]
JR: just because requiring keyboard a11y, have to ensure don't break mouse access
18:12:49 [oedipus]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2008/keyboardProposals20080709.html
18:13:04 [oedipus]
JB: Mark, action item status?
18:14:03 [oedipus]
MH: hand-written notes - have actual text on laptop - need to pull off; looked at ATAG as model for rationale; some text there, but 4.1 "Ensure Keyboard Access" is verbatim from ATAG; others not so good; will post to list when get laptop working again
18:14:36 [oedipus]
MH: draft comments will be posted ASAP - hopefully later today
18:15:10 [oedipus]
JB: action items - need to check and see if Simon posted to list and can close actions
18:15:40 [jeanne]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JulSep/0006.html
18:16:49 [oedipus]
JB: his point is if can't articulate rationale don't include; wants us to backup every rationale where possible with references from scientific literature; wary of that - JTC1 has tried that and there are a lot of risks in doing that; literature isn't comprehensive, will follow-up on list and should address in future meeting
18:17:04 [oedipus]
JA: second that; while laudable, have a lot of other issues and tasks that need work
18:17:34 [oedipus]
JB: might be a mismatch; could link from an "understanding" document, but weird things happen when try to do that in primary doc
18:17:40 [oedipus]
JS: dates document more rapidly
18:18:14 [Judy]
action: jb follow up on SH's suggestion about linking literature references from UAWG 2.0
18:18:24 [oedipus]
JB: can't link to external references from guidelines themselves
18:18:36 [oedipus]
MH: something living independent of guidelines?
18:18:39 [Judy]
s/follow up on/reply to multiple concerns on
18:18:47 [oedipus]
JA: have many other tasks and techniques to draft and review
18:19:01 [oedipus]
JB: other Action Item or Agenda Review items?
18:19:24 [oedipus]
JA: rationale for 4.1 was action item - keep on through SC
18:19:30 [oedipus]
JB: don't need rationale for SC?
18:19:41 [oedipus]
JA: ATAG does only for top level guidelines
18:19:54 [oedipus]
JB: didn't realize shouldn't be doing rationale at that level
18:20:03 [oedipus]
JA: personally, not as chair, think is over kill
18:20:23 [oedipus]
JR: understanding UAAG document would cover it; WCAG doesn't do it per SC, but address in understanding doc
18:20:37 [oedipus]
JB: haven't committed to "understanding" doc - what do WG members think?
18:20:45 [oedipus]
scribe's note: silence
18:20:56 [oedipus]
JA: have enough on plate - good idea, but how to find cycles
18:21:15 [oedipus]
JB: curious how many read email from 4 july 2008
18:21:17 [oedipus]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua//2008JulSep/0006.html
18:22:21 [oedipus]
JB: proposes rationale for a lot of 4.x - what do we think about this? should go into understanding document if one created; would benefit adopters, but how useful and how necessary; do we agree with what SH wrote?
18:22:43 [oedipus]
JB: 4.1.1 to 4.1.6 - what do people think about proposed text?
18:23:13 [oedipus]
JR: good explanations of why those things are SCs; more development overhead from doc development POV; would be easier to produce if doc more stable
18:23:58 [oedipus]
JA: should state that will create document if have time; always have rational for SC, but not in formal listing; formal listing useful, but what will we do with it in future? think need GLs first, test suite next, then listing
18:24:23 [oedipus]
JS: too long - one sentence rationales was aim; a lot more readable and powerful to have sentence than paragraph
18:24:48 [oedipus]
MH: goal is "as short and concise a rationale statement" -
18:25:32 [oedipus]
JB: my take on these and comments on them is a concern: interesting and helpful to think about SC (helps focus on it and whether worded right) on other hand, approach is inconsistent
18:25:54 [oedipus]
JB: main approach SH uses is to give negative examples
18:26:16 [oedipus]
JB: "if such isn't available... then user won't be able to do ..."
18:26:47 [oedipus]
JB: preferential statement requirements mixed in; if keep, have to shoehorn them all into a standard type of statement
18:27:05 [oedipus]
MH: tried to keep to consistent format -
18:27:13 [oedipus]
JB: like a formula for each
18:27:14 [oedipus]
MH: yes
18:27:20 [oedipus]
MH: step plus whatever
18:28:40 [oedipus]
JA: SH's work is useful, but not immediately; is important, but needs to be reworded and be put into supplemental document
18:29:13 [oedipus]
JB: think is important - if use would NEED to go in supplemental doc and not sure if WG will have resources to produce supplemental doc
18:29:29 [oedipus]
JB: appreciate SH and MH's energy, but focus on documents we have to do
18:30:24 [oedipus]
JB: troubles me slightly is for 1 through 6 came up with rationales that need rewording; for second half, the attempt to write a rationale triggered a "wait a minute?" reaction; could be due to newness to group or great way to quality check what we've done
18:30:54 [oedipus]
JA: second half more granular because subsets of what came before (in 1 through 6)
18:31:10 [oedipus]
JA: 4.9 seems like part of 4.1.2 and that's why double-A
18:31:30 [oedipus]
JB: not most efficient time to do these b/c will force us to cycle through questions that already are marked for clarification
18:31:50 [oedipus]
JA: call out rationales, collect them for use if can make explanatory doc
18:32:01 [oedipus]
JB: Mark x.1.1 level or x.1 level
18:32:06 [oedipus]
MH: x.1 level
18:32:20 [oedipus]
q+ to ask if should collect in UAWG wiki page?
18:32:40 [oedipus]
ack me'
18:33:10 [AllanJ]
GJR: collect these on the wiki page, and work on refining as time permits
18:33:21 [oedipus]
JB: will include request in my note to SH
18:33:54 [AllanJ]
request is for collecting rationale on wiki
18:33:59 [oedipus]
TOPIC: Keyboard access and visibility of keyboard controls
18:34:08 [oedipus]
JA: Jeanne posted both proposals?
18:34:30 [oedipus]
JS: really only 1 - 2 variants; JR and i worked on it and have revised 4.1.5 and 4.1.x
18:34:49 [jeanne]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2008/keyboardProposals20080709.html
18:35:07 [oedipus]
JA: move onto 4.1.6
18:35:15 [oedipus]
JA: proposed "no change"
18:35:54 [AllanJ]
4.1.6 Standard Text Area Conventions: Views that render text support the standard text area conventions for the platform including, but not necessarily limited to: character keys, backspace/delete, insert, "arrow" key navigation (e.g., "caret" browsing), page up/page down, navigate to start/end, navigate by paragraph, shift-to-select mechanism, etc.
18:35:56 [oedipus]
JA: reads from proposal
18:36:44 [oedipus]
JB: maintaining platform consistency to reduce congnative burden - but explanation is a bit of a cognative burden
18:36:47 [oedipus]
GJR: seconds that
18:37:14 [oedipus]
JA: most platforms have CTR+RightArrow will always move by word
18:37:26 [oedipus]
JB: nomenclature questions -- need clear concise titles
18:37:42 [oedipus]
JB: one question is what is our goal in terms of standard language format for 4.1 GL
18:37:55 [oedipus]
JB: extant text makes sense - a statement/command
18:38:04 [oedipus]
JB: SC level are noun phrases
18:38:21 [oedipus]
JB: is it our intent to leave like that instead of a statement of what these things are?
18:38:33 [oedipus]
JB: what are standard TEXTAREA conventions?
18:38:45 [oedipus]
JA: In ATAG contains short keywords
18:39:00 [oedipus]
JA: good to raise if makes more understandable
18:39:12 [oedipus]
q+ to say PF is addressing this with TEXTAREA and ARIA
18:39:20 [oedipus]
JA: important to have outsider review
18:39:48 [oedipus]
JB: ATAG SC 8.1.3.1 - not consistent
18:40:11 [oedipus]
JS: WCAG SC are 2.1.1 keyboard 2.1.2 no keyboard trap 2.1.3 no exceptions
18:40:20 [oedipus]
JB: noun-phrase but descriptive
18:40:28 [oedipus]
JR: can you tell?
18:40:34 [oedipus]
JB: perhaps not always
18:40:45 [oedipus]
JB: very short keywords
18:40:54 [oedipus]
JA: been following example set by others
18:41:22 [oedipus]
JB: majority of ATAG SC are short keywords
18:41:26 [oedipus]
q?
18:41:46 [oedipus]
JB: 4.1.6 - will comment on it offline
18:42:10 [oedipus]
JA: only thing i think should have is standard TEXTAREA navigation convention so we know talking specifically about keyboard navigation
18:42:12 [oedipus]
ack me
18:42:12 [Zakim]
oedipus, you wanted to ask if should collect in UAWG wiki page? and to say PF is addressing this with TEXTAREA and ARIA
18:42:51 [oedipus]
JR: agree with JimA at this point
18:42:55 [oedipus]
MH: nothing to add
18:43:12 [oedipus]
JB: in this case, would be easy to put verb in front =
18:43:18 [oedipus]
JB: "use ..."
18:43:24 [oedipus]
JB: others may not be so easy to
18:43:28 [oedipus]
JA: verbify
18:43:43 [oedipus]
JB: exactly; good keyword makes text more understandable
18:44:01 [oedipus]
JB: need to orient developer
18:44:34 [oedipus]
JA: principles and GLs are verbified, SCs are mostly noun keywords
18:44:42 [oedipus]
JB: online discussion or editors' discussion?
18:44:55 [oedipus]
JB: could gather few editing items and put on agenda to address one by one
18:45:50 [oedipus]
proposed ACTION: Judy and Jeanne - figure out right time and place to cluster editorial issues to get UAAG2 more consistent - verbify keywords for SC
18:46:24 [oedipus]
ACTION: Judy and Jeanne - plan time and place to discuss cluster of editorial issues to get UAAG2 more consistent - address verbification of keywords for SCs
18:46:27 [Judy]
action: JA, JB, JS to figure a time & place to discuss a bunch of editorial issues (such as whether to "verbify" the success criteria)
18:46:57 [oedipus]
rrsagent, drop action 3
18:47:04 [oedipus]
rssagent, make minutes
18:47:13 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:47:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-ua-minutes.html oedipus
18:47:54 [oedipus]
JB: 4.1.6 - no changes other than our discussion above about heading phrasing - other comments?
18:48:03 [oedipus]
JA: add word "navigation" before convention
18:48:26 [oedipus]
JA: close 4.1.6, move on to 4.1.7
18:48:37 [AllanJ]
4.1.7 User Interface Navigation: The user can use the keyboard to traverse all of the controls forwards and backwards, including controls in floating toolbars, panels, and user agent extensions using the conventions of the platform (e.g., via "tab", "shift-tab", etc. ")
18:48:59 [oedipus]
i/4.1.7. User/TOPIC: 4.1.7
18:49:05 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:49:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-ua-minutes.html oedipus
18:49:36 [oedipus]
JS: chrome navigation versus UI navigation
18:50:23 [oedipus]
JB: had chrome discussion last week - trying to be careful to reduce use of it where possible, since defining differently from where using in certain places encased in quotes - not universal dev jargon; appreciate were we go to with that
18:51:21 [oedipus]
JA: glad discussing this again; in past, over a year ago, had discussed separating UAAG into 2 parts: 1) everything to do with UI with SC; 2) section on just content/viewport a11y stuff with GLs for keyboard and DI; 1 part for UI 1 part for content
18:51:38 [oedipus]
JA: confusing in UAAG 1.0 - should readdress this now
18:52:15 [oedipus]
JA: how to keep straight UI of chrome versus UI of content/viewport
18:52:35 [oedipus]
JB: keep honing in on titles of SCs - this title is misleading
18:53:16 [oedipus]
JB: "using conventions of the platform" overlaps with requirement in 4.1.6; less about UI navigation and more about keyboard access TO keyboard navigation
18:54:01 [oedipus]
JB: reviewed other SCs - ought to change title - sounds like random bit about navigation, but this is something we are keying in on and want maximum exposure
18:54:07 [oedipus]
JS: example of what rather see?
18:54:17 [oedipus]
JB: keyboard access to keyboard navigation
18:54:44 [oedipus]
JB: too long? is it in the right place? should be called something else, would belong where currently is
18:55:33 [oedipus]
JA: last bunch specific to UI; understand JB's issue with keyword intro; description addresses keyboard
18:55:49 [oedipus]
GJR plus one to JB's Keyboard Access to Keyboard Navigation
18:56:06 [oedipus]
JR: looking at 4.1.1. - all functionality can be operated from the keyboard..."
18:56:08 [oedipus]
JB: redundant
18:56:20 [oedipus]
JR: user can traverse all controls sequentially
18:56:22 [oedipus]
JB: redundant
18:56:44 [oedipus]
JR: not necessarily - not all controls, but all functionality - can't get to panels, but can get to menus
18:56:54 [oedipus]
JB: "all functionality" sounds inclusive to me
18:57:00 [oedipus]
JR: would drop to double-A
18:57:02 [oedipus]
JA: yes
18:57:18 [oedipus]
JR: if something on toolbar, should be able to get to it somehow
18:57:26 [oedipus]
JA: mis-spoke - is single A
18:58:14 [oedipus]
JB: 4.1.7 sufficiently covered by any differences should be folded into 4.1.6 unless something significantly different to warrant separation
18:58:24 [oedipus]
JB: 4.1.6 standard conventions of platform
18:59:20 [oedipus]
JR: 4.1.7 adds to 4.1.1
18:59:55 [oedipus]
JA: 4.1.1 history is got granular because overall base user agent covered by 4.1.1 and trying to get granular in 4.1.7 - if add extension to UA, provide keyboard interface
19:00:00 [oedipus]
JB: should be in 1.1
19:00:23 [oedipus]
MH: 4.1.7 - user agent extensions; what if developed on one platform that is inconsistent on other platforms
19:00:28 [oedipus]
MH: potential problem
19:00:35 [Judy]
s/1.1/4.1.1
19:00:36 [oedipus]
should i log ACTION: Jan & Jim - review 4.1.1, 4.1.6, and 4.1.7 for redundancy ???
19:00:54 [oedipus]
ACTION: Jan & Jim - review 4.1.1, 4.1.6, and 4.1.7 for redundancy ???
19:00:59 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:00:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-ua-minutes.html oedipus
19:01:10 [oedipus]
JB: more we can distill these down, the better it will be for all
19:01:15 [oedipus]
JB: move on to 4.1.8
19:01:22 [oedipus]
TOPIC: 4.1.8
19:01:31 [AllanJ]
4.1.8 Ensure Keyboard Commands: Any user interface component that can receive focus has a keyboard command unless the operating environment prevents it. Currently visible user interface components visually indicate their keyboard shortcuts.
19:01:45 [oedipus]
JA: used to be huge and proscriptive; pulled from UAAG1, been tersified
19:02:11 [oedipus]
JA: wording contains a confusing part
19:02:57 [oedipus]
JB: this is one where need to de-verbify to be consistent with current format; if did wouuld be indistinguishable from others in section; helps with skim reading, which is important
19:03:16 [oedipus]
JB: devs want ability to skim and understand scope on skim
19:03:27 [oedipus]
JB: in terms of phrasing, first sentence makes sense
19:04:59 [oedipus]
JA: original stated user has option to enable keystrokes to particular function; that concept fell out in this proposal
19:05:17 [oedipus]
JR: some things so important need keyboard access, now saying need keyboard access to everything
19:05:31 [oedipus]
JB: 4.1.8 is redundant with 4.1.5
19:06:02 [oedipus]
JS: didn't get sense of uniqueness in 4.1.8 - important, need clear way to say; easy to get lost
19:06:14 [oedipus]
JA: level 2, so is extension of 4.1.5
19:06:49 [oedipus]
JR: 4.1.1 says sequential or direct to get to all functionalities; in this case, these set of things have to be accessible; then we state you need to programmatically indicate them
19:07:00 [oedipus]
JA: path of finer granularity
19:08:02 [oedipus]
JB: 4.1.5 - show on screen and programmatically; looking at 4.1.5 one problem that i've seen is confusion between programmatic access and people turning into an either or
19:08:12 [oedipus]
JB: 4.1.5 should be split so absolutely no confusion
19:08:47 [oedipus]
JB: wonder if would be advantage to split, because use cases could be handled differently
19:09:02 [oedipus]
JB: do those things apply to programmatic bindings as well as visual indicators
19:09:44 [oedipus]
JR: 4.1.x that Jeanne and i proposed split thte other way UA commands (open menu item) and recognized commands from content (accesskey)
19:10:06 [oedipus]
scribe's note: #60 to mute, #61 to unmute
19:10:21 [oedipus]
scribe's note: #40 to raise hand; #41 to lower hand
19:10:42 [oedipus]
JR: agree with JB's division - need to ensure people see as AND and not OR
19:10:48 [oedipus]
JB: opportunity to clarify other items, too
19:11:14 [oedipus]
JB: original meaning somewhat lost; what have now is redundant; need fresh effort to rewrite 4.1.8
19:11:27 [oedipus]
ACTION: Jeanne - propose rewrite for Section 4.1.8
19:12:39 [oedipus]
JB: for next pass, leave this intact as background and have one page on which the most stripped down version of latest proposals are presented sequentially (refer only as "used to be x.x.x" - don't want to trip WG up over too much history; streamlined view will facillitate scrubbing up
19:12:42 [oedipus]
GJR: plus 1
19:12:48 [oedipus]
JS: plus 1
19:13:02 [oedipus]
ACTION: Jan - propose rewrite for 4.1.5 and nex 4.1.x
19:13:53 [oedipus]
JS: put into editors draft to be reviewed in context
19:14:06 [oedipus]
JB: may be one week away from doing that
19:14:10 [oedipus]
proposed ACTION: Jeanne - build new streamlined framework (1 or 2 sentences for each SC)
19:14:38 [oedipus]
ACTION: Jeanne - build new streamlined framework for 4.1.* (1 or 2 sentences for each SC)
19:14:44 [oedipus]
TOPIC: 4.1.7
19:15:11 [AllanJ]
4.1.9 Precedence of Keystroke Processing: Keystrokes are processed in the following order: user agent user interface, user agent extensions, content keystroke operations administered by the user agent (e.g., access keys), and executable content (e.g., key press events in scripts, etc.).
19:15:13 [oedipus]
JB: also comment on 4.1.9
19:15:25 [jeanne]
Simon's comment:**COMMENT*** It seems we should look at this and 4.1.2 together - if
19:15:25 [jeanne]
we define a precedence why do we then need to make sure the
19:15:25 [jeanne]
precedence is documented unless 4.1.2 is A conformance and 4.1.9 is AA?
19:15:27 [oedipus]
s/TOPIC: 4.1.7/TOPIC: 4.1.9
19:15:36 [oedipus]
JA: more granularity
19:15:44 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:15:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-ua-minutes.html oedipus
19:16:04 [oedipus]
JB: SH comment was look at this and 4.1.2 together
19:16:29 [oedipus]
JB: in next draft, ought to reconstruct priority level and do rough attempt at reordering them?
19:16:47 [oedipus]
JB: all single A first then double A right
19:16:52 [oedipus]
JA: that's how are organized
19:17:19 [oedipus]
JA: wanted to make this a single A with 1.2 - all browsers if javascript gets first, trickle in through another mechanism
19:17:32 [oedipus]
JA: preference: UI gets first, cascade down and scripts get last
19:18:33 [oedipus]
JA: user agent first then extension (UA knows about and controls) - that which happens in javascript UA knowns nothing about it, but author can override keybindings with script; user has no cognizance just frustration; current practice is scripts get first and then write to Accessibility API to alert AT
19:18:44 [oedipus]
JB: significant problem and not asking for what is needed?
19:18:55 [oedipus]
JA: didn't think would ever happen
19:19:07 [oedipus]
s/UI gets first/UA gets first
19:19:14 [oedipus]
JB: need to be clear
19:19:28 [oedipus]
JA: specific rationale explaining why this is where is appears in doc flow
19:21:10 [oedipus]
JB: priority grouping concern a perception or based on feedback; putting priorities on level by priority, forces more discussion to happen on most essential parts of need be addressed; seen example in another GL group where happened -- aggregation of content
19:21:38 [oedipus]
JR: end-run around issue: make this be a user option - level A that user can choose to have UA process keystrokes first
19:21:50 [oedipus]
GJR: didn't we build that into access module?
19:21:57 [Judy]
s/-- aggregation of content/
19:22:31 [oedipus]
JR: UAs don't process this way because user goes to GMail think "i am using GMail" not browser x
19:22:43 [oedipus]
GJR: this is similar to the dropped role in ARIA "application"
19:23:11 [oedipus]
JR: can bring to proper priority level by allowing for user control (greater and less)
19:24:13 [oedipus]
proposed ACTION: Jan - start discussion on UA list about scripting cascade issues, SC and solutions/techniques ??
19:24:28 [oedipus]
JA: browser a platform for applications, good point JR
19:24:36 [oedipus]
q}
19:24:37 [oedipus]
q+
19:25:01 [oedipus]
MH: developer's POV: nothing specific to add
19:26:02 [Zakim]
-Mark_Hakkinen
19:26:17 [AllanJ]
GJR: was covered in ARIA 1.1 'template ID', perhaps take back to PF
19:26:25 [oedipus]
GJR: dropped role is templateid not application
19:26:33 [oedipus]
JA: send to list, GJR
19:26:35 [Zakim]
+Mark_Hakkinen
19:26:59 [oedipus]
GJR: implementor support for "templateid" in ARIA, but dropped
19:27:15 [oedipus]
TWO MINUTES WARNING
19:27:24 [oedipus]
s/MINUTES/MINUTE
19:27:38 [oedipus]
TOPIC: Wrapping Up
19:27:57 [oedipus]
JA: propose we stop here for now and pick up on list -- getting close to nailing this
19:28:31 [oedipus]
JB: one more call could probably make it not only to end of list, but also talk about reordering; for 10 through 12 will need to track background
19:28:37 [oedipus]
JA: discussion on list is key
19:29:08 [oedipus]
JA: proposal needed for 10; 11 needs grammatical fix; 12 ok
19:30:40 [oedipus]
JB: housekeeping: meeting scheduled for 90 minutes; going to give it a try; anyone else have problem with 90 minutes starting at 2pm Boston?
19:30:42 [oedipus]
GJR: no
19:31:19 [oedipus]
JB: Jeanne put on agenda scheduling publication of next draft - important to satisfy heartbeat req; might be good to do after keyboard part is straightened out
19:31:22 [oedipus]
JA: good idea
19:31:28 [oedipus]
JB: talk at next week's meeting
19:31:47 [oedipus]
JA: will be number 1 on agenda; if get kbd section done, good place to issue a draft
19:32:32 [oedipus]
JB: some members we haven't heard from who have a lot of interest in keyboard; coherent for feedback check with those who have been out of touch when have new proposed text
19:32:40 [oedipus]
JB: regrets for next week
19:32:49 [Zakim]
-Judy
19:32:51 [Zakim]
-Mark_Hakkinen
19:32:51 [Zakim]
-Jan_Richards
19:32:53 [Zakim]
-Jim_Allan
19:32:58 [Zakim]
-Jeanne
19:34:12 [Judy]
s/for next week/for next week?
19:34:26 [oedipus]
proposed ACTION: Jan - start discussion on UA list about scripting cascade issues, SC and proposed solutions/techniques
19:34:49 [oedipus]
jan, are you still on IRC - i didn't capture your last action definitively
19:34:55 [oedipus]
proposed ACTION: Jan - start discussion on UA list about scripting cascade issues, SC and proposed solutions/techniques
19:35:01 [oedipus]
zakim, please part
19:35:01 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Gregory_Rosmaita, Jeanne, +1.512.206.aaaa, Jim_Allan, Jan_Richards, Judy, Mark_Hakkinen
19:35:01 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
19:35:53 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:35:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-ua-minutes.html oedipus
19:36:13 [oedipus]
s/TOPIC: 4.1.7/TOPIC: 4.1.9/
19:36:19 [oedipus]
s/TOPIC: 4.1.7/TOPIC: 4.1.9
19:36:22 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:36:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-ua-minutes.html oedipus
19:37:56 [oedipus]
present- aaaa
19:37:58 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:37:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-ua-minutes.html oedipus
19:38:35 [AllanJ]
AllanJ has left #ua
19:38:49 [oedipus]
present- [+1.512.206.aaaa]
19:38:51 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:38:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-ua-minutes.html oedipus
19:40:55 [oedipus]
i/JS: chrome/TOPIC: 4.1.7
19:40:58 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:40:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-ua-minutes.html oedipus
19:41:48 [oedipus]
ACTION: Jan - start discussion on UA list about scripting cascade issues, SC and proposed solutions/techniques
19:41:55 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:41:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-ua-minutes.html oedipus
20:04:14 [jeanne]
jeanne has left #ua