IRC log of xhtml on 2008-07-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:41:37 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
13:41:44 [rmerric]
13:42:10 [rmerric]
Zakim, this will be xhtml2
13:42:10 [Zakim]
ok, rmerric; I see IA_XHTML2()9:45AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
13:42:37 [rmerric]
Meeting: XHTML2 WG Weekly Teleconference
13:43:07 [Roland]
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13:43:33 [Roland]
rrsagent, make minutes
13:43:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Roland
13:43:43 [Roland]
rrsagent, make log public
13:44:00 [Roland]
Chair: Roland
13:44:36 [Zakim]
IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has now started
13:44:38 [Zakim]
13:44:47 [ShaneM]
zakim, McCarron is ShaneM
13:44:47 [Zakim]
+ShaneM; got it
13:45:06 [Zakim]
13:45:08 [Zakim]
13:45:08 [Zakim]
13:45:45 [Zakim]
13:46:46 [alessio]
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13:48:21 [Zakim]
13:48:26 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
13:48:26 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
13:48:27 [Zakim]
13:49:19 [Zakim]
13:49:40 [oedipus]
zakim, IPcaller is alessio
13:49:40 [Zakim]
+alessio; got it
13:50:06 [alessio]
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13:50:30 [oedipus]
chair: Roland Merrick
13:50:38 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
13:50:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
13:51:31 [oedipus]
scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
13:51:36 [oedipus]
scribeNick: oedipus
13:51:39 [oedipus]
TOPIC: Reviews
13:51:56 [oedipus]
RM: TAG finding on passwords in clear; Shane and Tina investigated
13:52:11 [oedipus]
SM: have not gotten to it
13:52:17 [alessio]
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13:52:25 [oedipus]
TH: re-read, but not found any other comments than those i made during last call
13:52:41 [oedipus]
s/during last call/during the last WG call
13:52:50 [oedipus]
SM: will coordinate response with TH
13:53:18 [oedipus]
RM: XSD - identified MarkB as best reviewer, haven't heard back from him; hasn't been able to attend calls in a while
13:53:29 [oedipus]
RM: allowing comments until 1 september 2008
13:53:47 [oedipus]
13:53:54 [oedipus]
RM: transition progress?
13:54:19 [oedipus]
SP: sent transition req, but no reply; will follow up again
13:54:53 [oedipus]
RM: wonder why we have such a lag-time everytime we put in a transition req
13:56:01 [oedipus]
RM: holiday in US may have gummed things up temporarily
13:56:42 [oedipus]
SP: on vacation until middle of next week after that, working half time
13:56:50 [oedipus]
RM: good at least to have some explanation on that
13:57:09 [oedipus]
TOPIC: How HTML5 relates to XHTML
13:57:19 [oedipus]
SP: had delays will try and get out tomorrow morning
13:57:25 [oedipus]
TOPIC: Role transition to CR
13:57:28 [oedipus]
RM: are we ready?
13:57:37 [oedipus]
SM: ready
13:58:05 [oedipus]
proposed RESOLVED: request transition Role Module for to CR
13:58:12 [oedipus]
SP: +1
13:58:14 [ShaneM]
13:58:16 [oedipus]
GJR: +1
13:58:49 [oedipus]
proposed RESOLVED: request Role Module transition to CR
13:58:57 [oedipus]
Alessio: +1
13:59:06 [Tina]
13:59:10 [oedipus]
GJR: interested in shane's comment
13:59:14 [alessio]
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13:59:34 [oedipus]
SP: moment to address testing Role attribute
14:00:00 [oedipus]
GJR: is ARIA proof-of-concept - have partial implementations, but not the type we really want
14:01:05 [oedipus]
SM: ARIA spec doesn't use Role module - so wrong technically
14:01:17 [oedipus]
SM: ARIA using Role module in way XHTML2 hasn't specified
14:01:40 [oedipus]
GJR: but ARIA is derived from role, even if it isn't implemented as part of Role module
14:02:10 [oedipus]
SP: can show that implementation used Role attribute to achieve ARIA - hook to hang things off of, and ARIA does that, by using extensibility mechanism
14:02:28 [oedipus]
RM: ARIA doesn't say you can't associate with Role
14:02:40 [alessio]
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14:03:11 [oedipus]
SM: yes, but saying browser x uses Role, needs to be actually using Role as defined
14:03:21 [oedipus]
SP: ARIA uses rules of extensibility for Role
14:03:42 [oedipus]
SP: things that use Role in ways consistent with what Role intended to do - need 2 implementations
14:04:08 [oedipus]
SP: if show @class being used, would show 2 CSS implementations that select off class; think can do similar with Role
14:04:28 [oedipus]
Alessio: DOM implementation identifying elements by Role - could be proof of application
14:04:35 [oedipus]
SM: wrote such a javascript function
14:05:03 [oedipus]
SP: mozilla uses role attribute, we have a javascript to handle Role, can tick implementation boxes - only need to prove that can be implemented
14:05:21 [oedipus]
RM: conformance test?
14:05:25 [oedipus]
SM: nothing to conform to
14:05:57 [oedipus]
RM: only need to show that role attribute is picked up by UA so is available for whatever purpose one needs
14:06:33 [oedipus]
TH: new version of quality testing tool tests for role usage - doesn't do anything with them, but flag whether present or not
14:07:04 [alessio]
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14:07:29 [oedipus]
SM: Tina that is valuable - application using Role attribute satisfies criteria; in past test has been - is it used in ML; not in any ML
14:08:19 [oedipus]
SP: 1 reason argued in past was all modules things tghat had been implemented; no new conformance criteria; creating module here and want ML that uses it, but can show semantics are being used
14:08:42 [oedipus]
SP: close to way @class works; no pure semantics; can't test Role on its own, but can show it being used in other specificiations and implementations
14:09:28 [oedipus]
SP: need to state CR exit criteria; Role in and of itself doesn't require processing because hook for processing, but during CR will show being used in various pieces of software
14:10:06 [oedipus]
GJR: quote from ARIA spec: "2.1. WAI-ARIA Roles
14:10:06 [oedipus]
An ARIA role is set on an element using the a role attribute similar to the one defined in the XHTML Role Attribute Module [XHTML-ROLES].
14:10:43 [oedipus]
GJR: didn't catch "similar"
14:11:25 [oedipus]
ACTION: Gregory - ask PFWG why "similar" inserted into 2.1 of ARIA spec and answser to ShaneM's query about Role and ARIA
14:11:33 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:11:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
14:12:39 [oedipus]
TOPIC: XHTML Basic 1.1 transition to PR
14:12:51 [oedipus]
14:13:22 [oedipus]
SP: voting ends on 15 july - trying to drum up votes - IBM hasn't voted yet (nudge, nudge); neither have mobile people
14:14:58 [oedipus]
SP: mobile best practices waiting for this so they can transition; can't ask for transition to rec until comments collected; asked if someone can take my role over for organizing transition; would write transition request and hand off to Francois Daoust; will probably take over team contact from me and request transition; will be on holiday
14:16:10 [oedipus]
SP: when voting ends on 15 july, will FD will transition - should be transitioned by second to last week of month
14:16:42 [oedipus]
TOPIC: M12N transition: status
14:17:04 [oedipus]
RM: Shane, have you worked with IanJ on new shortnames?
14:17:13 [oedipus]
14:18:11 [oedipus]
SM: issues with XML Schema RDFa which uses M12n 1.1
14:18:41 [oedipus]
SM: made a few VERY minor changes to fix bug - not a normative change, just works around a bug to assist with validation
14:18:47 [oedipus]
14:18:54 [oedipus]
14:18:59 [oedipus]
SP: tested and works for me
14:19:15 [oedipus]
SP: should test on IvanH's framework
14:19:52 [oedipus]
SP: looking poor in terms of voting - voting ends 15 July 2008; need to solicit comments - please remind AC reps!!!
14:20:30 [oedipus]
SP: Alessio, can you make sure IWG votes on M12n and Basic?
14:20:34 [oedipus]
Alessio: will do
14:20:44 [oedipus]
SP: RM, please make sure IBM votes
14:21:07 [oedipus]
SM: Sun Microsystems obvious candidate;
14:21:10 [oedipus]
SP: HP already voted
14:21:39 [oedipus]
GJR: can get Steve Faulkner of paciello group (member institution) to comment form accessibility POV
14:22:01 [oedipus]
SM: XForms - schema implementation, so votes would be good
14:23:08 [oedipus]
s/comment form/vote citing
14:23:13 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:23:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
14:23:34 [Steven]
14:26:14 [ShaneM]
.me has not seen a response - could have missed it. maybe only in the working group list?
14:28:03 [oedipus]
next TOPIC: XHTML 1.1 SE status or RelaxNG and M12n
14:29:20 [oedipus]
SM: when preparing comments from HTML WG would be good to mention in draft, explaining media type application+xml is "HTML5"
14:30:10 [ShaneM]
14:30:18 [oedipus]
s/explaining media type/explaining why media type
14:30:58 [Tina]
14:31:23 [oedipus]
TOPIC: M12n redux
14:31:25 [Steven]
14:32:12 [oedipus]
SM: problem with XML Schema - reminded why RelaxNG better way going forward; m12n architecture assumes certain things about how one will extend module; RDF extends module in way that isn't consistent
14:32:15 [oedipus]
SP: really?
14:32:28 [oedipus]
SM: introduces attributes that are already on other elements in existing modules
14:32:36 [oedipus]
SP: @href everywhere issue
14:32:51 [oedipus]
SM: avoided by not allowing @href everywhere
14:33:03 [oedipus]
SM: problem is: can't define an attribute twice
14:33:25 [oedipus]
SM: if defined exactly same way twice, schema processor should recognize the union, but it doesn't
14:33:37 [oedipus]
SM: RelaxNG easily creates union;
14:33:49 [oedipus]
s/M12n redux/M12n and RelaxNG
14:33:56 [oedipus]
SM: need to document this
14:34:09 [oedipus]
SM: don't use module implementation when collision
14:34:50 [oedipus]
SM: Link module - RDFa no longer contains link module - integrated in way that won't crash, which is legal (content model and how to extend and use subsets) but can't reuse this stuff
14:35:00 [oedipus]
s/RDF extends/RDFa extends
14:35:35 [oedipus]
SP: Schema should have forseen -- should be compatible with DTD and expect would perform union
14:35:53 [oedipus]
SM: disappointing - strategies to accomodate such use, but didn't employ in basic def of module
14:36:02 [oedipus]
SP: so req for future versions of M12n
14:36:24 [oedipus]
SM: if define attribute groups for every single attribute on every element, could do binding, but that is an extreme remedy
14:36:50 [oedipus]
TOPIC: XHTML 1.1 SE status
14:37:12 [oedipus]
RM: what to do with 1.1 SE versus 1.2 with extra features; wating for 1.1 m12n completion?
14:37:18 [oedipus]
SM: yes, just schema implementation stuff
14:37:28 [oedipus]
SP: this is really a PER - nothing to argue about
14:37:34 [oedipus]
SM: can't imagine there would be
14:38:14 [oedipus]
SP: add @target to 1.1 - would prefer not - those who need/want to use will have impetus to adapt 1.2
14:38:20 [oedipus]
SM: put nothing in 1.1
14:38:38 [oedipus]
SP: makes easier to get through to say 1.1 is just 1.1 with schemas; changes will be in 1.2
14:38:42 [oedipus]
RM: errata folded in?
14:38:45 [oedipus]
SM: no errata
14:39:05 [oedipus]
SP: isn't there something Anne VanK objected to because didn't make change
14:39:27 [oedipus]
SM: ID versus IDREF - client side image map - can change in future ML, but can't break conformance
14:39:31 [oedipus]
SP: so that's a 1.2 change
14:39:40 [oedipus]
SM: right - notghing to do with 1.1 PER
14:39:52 [oedipus]
RM: proposal for 1.2?
14:40:00 [oedipus]
SP: need to agree which features to put in 1.2
14:40:13 [oedipus]
RM: thought SP had action to create first draft (listed in tracker)
14:40:35 [oedipus]
GJR: so we are NOT adding @target to 1.1, right?
14:40:43 [oedipus]
TOPIC: XHTML2 Public Draft
14:40:53 [oedipus]
SM: closing in on it - should be available relatively soon
14:41:04 [oedipus]
RM: need XML Events 2 out the door?
14:41:12 [oedipus]
SM: references it, but not dependent on it
14:41:25 [oedipus]
RM: next call devote discussion on XML Events 2
14:42:10 [oedipus]
RM: timing issue and a few others to make sure comfortable with new draft of XML Events 2 - don't need to change draft to control timing mechanisms; registering and deregistering listeners
14:42:21 [oedipus]
TOPIC: Other Issues
14:42:28 [Zakim]
14:42:29 [oedipus]
SP: away for the next 3 calls
14:42:40 [oedipus]
RM: results of survey?
14:42:46 [Steven]
14:43:16 [oedipus]
SP: MarkB didn't reply
14:43:20 [oedipus]
RM: alright into august
14:43:27 [oedipus]
SP: will be back on 6 august
14:43:38 [oedipus]
RM: will be away a month the following week
14:43:46 [oedipus]
RM: no need to cancel for next 4 weeks
14:43:51 [oedipus]
RM: other items?
14:44:00 [oedipus]
14:44:07 [Zakim]
14:44:08 [Zakim]
14:44:08 [Zakim]
14:44:09 [alessio]
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14:44:09 [Zakim]
14:44:10 [Zakim]
IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has ended
14:44:12 [Zakim]
Attendees were ShaneM, Roland, Tina, Gregory_Rosmaita, Steven, alessio
14:44:19 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:44:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
14:50:58 [alessio]
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14:55:23 [oedipus]
roland and/or steven, we never formally adopted the proposed resolution: "request Role Module transition to CR" - should i correct in minutes? can insert resolution
14:59:38 [oedipus]
i/GJR: interested in shane's comment/RESOLVED: request Role Module transition to CR
14:59:44 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:59:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
15:07:25 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:07:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
15:07:50 [oedipus]
rrsagent, please part
15:07:50 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in :
15:07:50 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Gregory - ask PFWG why "similar" inserted into 2.1 of ARIA spec and answser to ShaneM's query about Role and ARIA [1]
15:07:50 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:21:31 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #xhtml
15:21:31 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:21:52 [oedipus]
RESOLVED: request Role Module transition to CR
15:21:58 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:21:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
15:22:25 [oedipus]
rrsagent, please part
15:22:36 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make logs public
15:22:39 [oedipus]
rrsagent, please part
15:22:39 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items