IRC log of rif on 2008-07-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:48:45 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:48:45 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/07/08-rif-irc
14:48:52 [ChrisW]: zakim, this will be rif
14:48:52 [Zakim]: ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes
14:49:04 [ChrisW]: Meeting: RIF Telecon 8 Jul 2008
14:49:10 [ChrisW]: Chair: Chris Welty
14:49:24 [ChrisW]: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Jul/0088.html
14:49:36 [ChrisW]: ChrisW has changed the topic to: 8 July 2008 RIF Telecon Agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Jul/0088.html
14:49:58 [ChrisW]: zakim, clear agenda
14:49:58 [Zakim]: agenda cleared
14:50:04 [ChrisW]: agenda+ Admin
14:50:14 [ChrisW]: agenda+ Liason
14:50:19 [ChrisW]: agenda+ F2F11
14:50:24 [ChrisW]: agenda+ Action Review
14:50:30 [ChrisW]: agenda+ Document review
14:50:38 [ChrisW]: agenda+ Mime Types
14:50:46 [ChrisW]: agenda+ Casting
14:50:50 [ChrisW]: agenda+ AOB
14:51:06 [ChrisW]: rrsagent, make minutes
14:51:06 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/08-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
14:51:16 [ChrisW]: rrsagent, make logs public
15:00:33 [DaveReynolds]: DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:01:13 [Zakim]: SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:01:20 [Zakim]: +??P18
15:01:34 [Zakim]: +Dave_Reynolds (was ??P18)
15:01:40 [Zakim]: +ChrisW
15:01:47 [LeoraMorgenstern]: LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
15:01:59 [StellaMitchell]: StellaMitchell has joined #rif
15:02:28 [josb]: josb has joined #rif
15:02:29 [Zakim]: +LeoraMorgenstern
15:02:33 [Zakim]: +josb
15:02:40 [Harold]: Harold has joined #rif
15:03:31 [AxelPolleres]: AxelPolleres has joined #rif
15:03:34 [Zakim]: +[NRCC]
15:03:41 [Zakim]: +[IBM]
15:03:43 [Zakim]: +??P38
15:03:53 [StellaMitchell]: zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:03:53 [Zakim]: +StellaMitchell; got it
15:05:24 [ChrisW]: zakim, pick a victim
15:05:24 [Zakim]: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose ChrisW
15:05:29 [ChrisW]: zakim, pick a victim
15:05:29 [Zakim]: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose josb
15:05:32 [ChrisW]: zakim, pick a victim
15:05:33 [Zakim]: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose ChrisW
15:05:35 [ChrisW]: zakim, pick a victim
15:05:35 [Zakim]: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose [NRCC]
15:05:46 [StellaMitchell]: I can scribe
15:05:54 [ChrisW]: zakim, pick a victim
15:05:54 [Zakim]: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose StellaMitchell
15:05:57 [StellaMitchell]: yes
15:06:09 [ChrisW]: Scribe: StellaMitchell
15:06:27 [ChrisW]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Jul/att-0037/20080701-RIF-minutes.html
15:06:36 [ChrisW]: Zakim, next item
15:06:36 [Zakim]: agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:06:49 [ChrisW]: PROPOSED: accept Minutes from July 1 telecon
15:06:52 [StellaMitchell]: cw: any objections to accepting minutes from last week?
15:06:56 [ChrisW]: RESOLVED: accept Minutes from July 1 telecon
15:07:06 [AdrianP]: AdrianP has joined #rif
15:07:11 [StellaMitchell]: cw: any agenda ammendments?
15:07:31 [ChrisW]: zakim, take up item 3
15:07:33 [Zakim]: agendum 3. "F2F11" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:07:41 [Harold]: zakim, [NRCC] is temporarily me
15:07:41 [Zakim]: +Harold; got it
15:08:16 [StellaMitchell]: cw: next f2f end of Sept in NY. I would like to know whether people prefer Hawnthorne or at IBM facility in Manhattan
15:08:37 [josb]: +1 Manhattan
15:08:40 [StellaMitchell]: cw: please let me know if you have a preference. Default is in Hawthorne
15:08:41 [AxelPolleres]: I prefer the lower cost options to some extent.
15:08:44 [ChrisW]: zakim, next item
15:08:44 [Zakim]: agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:08:49 [ChrisW]: zakim, take up item 4
15:08:49 [Zakim]: agendum 4. "Action Review" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:09:21 [AxelPolleres]: yes, I did
15:09:24 [StellaMitchell]: cw: all documents are frozen except for FLD?
15:09:27 [StellaMitchell]: harold: yes
15:09:44 [StellaMitchell]: job: rdf/owl is not frozen. I'm waiting for BLD freeze, and wiki was broken today
15:09:58 [AxelPolleres]: I will also send some more comments to you by tonite, jos.
15:10:00 [StellaMitchell]: josb: it will be ready to be frozen tomorrow
15:10:31 [StellaMitchell]: harold: FLD is promised by this friday, but will try for earlier
15:10:54 [StellaMitchell]: cw: action review
15:11:02 [StellaMitchell]: action-538 completed
15:11:10 [StellaMitchell]: action-537 completed
15:11:20 [StellaMitchell]: action-534 continued
15:11:59 [Zakim]: +??P32
15:12:10 [StellaMitchell]: action-530 will be complete by friday
15:12:14 [AdrianP]: Zakim, P32 is me
15:12:14 [Zakim]: sorry, AdrianP, I do not recognize a party named 'P32'
15:12:26 [AdrianP]: Zakim, who is on the phone
15:12:26 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'who is on the phone', AdrianP
15:12:41 [AdrianP]: Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:12:41 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Dave_Reynolds, ChrisW, LeoraMorgenstern, josb, Harold, StellaMitchell, AxelPolleres, ??P32
15:12:54 [AdrianP]: Zakim, ??P32 is me
15:12:54 [Zakim]: +AdrianP; got it
15:13:02 [AdrianP]: Zakim, mute me
15:13:02 [Zakim]: AdrianP should now be muted
15:13:08 [StellaMitchell]: jos: review of FLD by next tuesday
15:13:36 [ChrisW]: zakim, list agenda
15:13:36 [Zakim]: I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
15:13:37 [Zakim]: 1. Admin [from ChrisW]
15:13:37 [Zakim]: 2. Liason [from ChrisW]
15:13:38 [Zakim]: 4. Action Review [from ChrisW]
15:13:38 [Zakim]: 5. Document review [from ChrisW]
15:13:39 [Zakim]: 6. Mime Types [from ChrisW]
15:13:39 [Zakim]: 8. AOB [from ChrisW]
15:13:45 [ChrisW]: zakim, take up item 5
15:13:45 [Zakim]: agendum 5. "Document review" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:14:06 [AdrianP]: Zakim, unmute me
15:14:06 [Zakim]: AdrianP should no longer be muted
15:14:12 [StellaMitchell]: cw: dtb is frozen and waiting for my review
15:14:34 [StellaMitchell]: cw: adrian, is there a person assigned to review UCR?
15:14:43 [StellaMitchell]: adrian: no, not yet
15:14:50 [StellaMitchell]: cw: volunteer to review UCR?
15:14:57 [ChrisW]: zakim, pick a victim
15:14:57 [Zakim]: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose AxelPolleres
15:14:59 [AdrianP]: Zakim, mute me
15:14:59 [Zakim]: AdrianP should now be muted
15:15:10 [ChrisW]: zakim, pick a victim
15:15:10 [Zakim]: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose AdrianP (muted)
15:15:16 [StellaMitchell]: I can review UCR
15:15:49 [ChrisW]: action: Stella to review UCR for next WD
15:15:49 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-539 - Review UCR for next WD [on Stella Mitchell - due 2008-07-15].
15:16:19 [StellaMitchell]: cw: BLD will be reviewed by Leora
15:16:26 [StellaMitchell]: cw: FLD by chris and jos
15:16:27 [josb]: q+
15:16:46 [StellaMitchell]: yes, by end of week
15:16:57 [StellaMitchell]: cw: DTB by Chris
15:17:21 [StellaMitchell]: cw: rdf/owl ready for review by tomorrow
15:17:39 [StellaMitchell]: s/by chris and jos/by chris and jos by next tuesday/
15:17:43 [ChrisW]: Action: Axel to review BLD for LC
15:17:43 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-540 - Review BLD for LC [on Axel Polleres - due 2008-07-15].
15:17:55 [StellaMitchell]: s/by Leora/by Leora by friday/
15:18:08 [StellaMitchell]: cw: prd is already reviewed
15:18:29 [StellaMitchell]: jos: and I will review BLD by the end of this week
15:18:45 [ChrisW]: action: jos to review bld
15:18:45 [trackbot]: Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - jos
15:18:45 [trackbot]: Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jdebruij2, jderoo)
15:18:55 [ChrisW]: action: jdebruij2 to review bld
15:18:55 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-541 - Review bld [on Jos de Bruijn - due 2008-07-15].
15:19:07 [josb]: q-
15:19:22 [ChrisW]: zakim, take up item 6
15:19:22 [Zakim]: agendum 6. "Mime Types" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:19:46 [StellaMitchell]: cw: Sandro put the mime types in BLD. Has anyone reviewed?
15:19:55 [StellaMitchell]: harold: yes, it looks good
15:20:11 [StellaMitchell]: cw: do you need any changes?
15:20:29 [StellaMitchell]: harold: no, it's fine. Security is an open ended topic.
15:21:03 [StellaMitchell]: harold: he talks about documents that come by dereferencing, but not about other things such as computaiton that does not end
15:21:20 [DaveReynolds]: Surely the current wording addresses both?
15:21:24 [StellaMitchell]: harold: so, he picks one particular example, but doesn't mention other cases
15:21:52 [StellaMitchell]: cw: are you talking about implementations or specific rule sets?
15:22:08 [MichaelKifer]: MichaelKifer has joined #rif
15:22:33 [StellaMitchell]: harold: yes, he doesn't mention rule sets that will cause compuation that doesn't end
15:22:43 [Harold]: Sandro mentions: "Through the use of "import", it may
15:22:43 [Harold]: also require arbitrary URI dereferencing, which may consume
15:22:43 [Harold]: all available network resources on the consuming system or
15:22:43 [Harold]: other systems."
15:22:49 [StellaMitchell]: daver: I think the current text covers that case
15:23:07 [StellaMitchell]: cw: yes, I also think is does
15:23:51 [StellaMitchell]: harold: ok
15:24:01 [Zakim]: +MichaelKifer
15:24:02 [StellaMitchell]: s/is does/it does/
15:24:14 [StellaMitchell]: cw: any other comments on mime type?
15:24:33 [ChrisW]: zakim, take up item 7
15:24:33 [Zakim]: agendum 7. "Casting" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:24:38 [MichaelKifer]: zakim, mute me
15:24:38 [Zakim]: MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:25:12 [StellaMitchell]: cw: axel, can you summarize this issue?
15:25:38 [StellaMitchell]: axel: in the DTB document, section 4.3 cast and conversion functions
15:26:07 [StellaMitchell]: axel: casts from and to rif:iri - do we want these, and how should we do them
15:26:15 [Zakim]: -AdrianP
15:26:28 [StellaMitchell]: ...and there was also a question about from rif:text to string
15:26:49 [StellaMitchell]: ....first, we have to wait until we resolve rif:text with owl working group
15:27:02 [StellaMitchell]: ...should conversion take only the string, or the string with the language tag
15:27:11 [StellaMitchell]: ...both would be fine, currently only take the string part
15:28:09 [StellaMitchell]: ... rif: iri (4.3.5 and 4.3.6) function style is possible in one direction, if we define axiomatic equalities (4.3.5)
15:28:14 [AdrianP]: AdrianP has joined #rif
15:28:32 [StellaMitchell]: ... but this is not possible in the other direction, because the axioms would cause inconsistencies
15:28:43 [josb]: q+
15:28:50 [StellaMitchell]: ... I prefer functions wherever possible, and predicate only where function can't be used
15:29:14 [StellaMitchell]: .... (as opposed to making from and to rif:iri both predicates)
15:29:33 [ChrisW]: ack jos
15:29:48 [StellaMitchell]: ....mk and jos said the predicate will cover both directions of casting
15:30:27 [StellaMitchell]: jos: yes, the function is redundant, and another argument against 4.3.5 is that is is not a function in the way that the other casting functions are, because rif:iri is not a data type
15:31:16 [StellaMitchell]: axel: I agree that what you say is true, but still want to leave it the way it is
15:31:57 [StellaMitchell]: jos: simpler and more understandable to have the one predicate
15:32:14 [StellaMitchell]: cw: are you arguing to use this method for all cases?
15:32:21 [StellaMitchell]: jos: no, just rif:iri
15:32:26 [AxelPolleres]: q+
15:32:31 [StellaMitchell]: cw: what about doing it for all?
15:33:03 [StellaMitchell]: jos: possible, but maybe not natural, because we are following xquery, and because they are actually functions
15:33:17 [StellaMitchell]: ...but I still wouldn't be completely against it
15:33:46 [StellaMitchell]: axel: predicates makes writing things more complicated
15:33:55 [ChrisW]: ack axel
15:33:57 [StellaMitchell]: cw: any other opinions?
15:34:31 [MichaelKifer]: I agree with Jos.
15:35:08 [ChrisW]: zakim, who is on the phone?
15:35:08 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Dave_Reynolds, ChrisW, LeoraMorgenstern, josb, Harold, StellaMitchell, AxelPolleres, MichaelKifer (muted)
15:35:31 [ChrisW]: Axel +1, Jos -1
15:35:34 [StellaMitchell]: cw: straw poll,
15:35:41 [josb]: -1
15:35:42 [DaveReynolds]: -0.1
15:35:44 [AxelPolleres]: Strawpoll: Keep 4.3.5: +1 drop: -1
15:35:45 [Harold]: 0
15:35:48 [MichaelKifer]: -1
15:35:49 [AxelPolleres]: +1
15:35:49 [LeoraMorgenstern]: -1
15:35:53 [StellaMitchell]: -1
15:36:32 [AdrianP]: 0
15:37:02 [StellaMitchell]: cw: I will put this in the form of a proposed resolution (jos's proposal) and let people know that we'll be voting on it next week
15:37:36 [StellaMitchell]: jos: what about between rif:text and strings?
15:38:16 [StellaMitchell]: jos... the issue is from rif:text to string. according to current spec, you lose the language when casting from rif:text to string
15:38:23 [DaveReynolds]: q+
15:38:24 [Zakim]: +??P8
15:38:39 [StellaMitchell]: ...but the other direction is only defined for strings that have language id embedded
15:38:50 [ChrisW]: adrian is that you?
15:39:23 [AxelPolleres]: casting from string to numbers is also not round-drippable... "0001"
15:39:30 [AdrianPa]: AdrianPa has joined #rif
15:39:36 [StellaMitchell]: daver: casting from text to string, using only the string part make sense to me. but is there also a 2 argument constructor to create a string, and also an extractor to get the lang from the string
15:39:55 [StellaMitchell]: jos: I think we don't have the constructor
15:40:02 [AdrianPa]: Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:40:02 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Dave_Reynolds, ChrisW, LeoraMorgenstern, josb, Harold, StellaMitchell, AxelPolleres, MichaelKifer (muted), ??P8
15:40:12 [AdrianPa]: Zakim, ??P8 is me
15:40:12 [Zakim]: +AdrianPa; got it
15:40:18 [AdrianPa]: Zakim, mute me
15:40:18 [Zakim]: AdrianPa should now be muted
15:41:09 [StellaMitchell]: axel: I don't agree with the roundtripping argument because (?)..... and also then it would be complicated to get out the string part
15:41:42 [AdrianPa]: sorry, dropped out. I'm currently travelling and do not have a stable line
15:42:03 [StellaMitchell]: jos: I now agree with dave's idea that we change the cast in 4.3.4 to take 2 arguments
15:42:36 [StellaMitchell]: jos: ...first literal string and second language tag
15:43:20 [StellaMitchell]: cw: I agree that current cast doesn't really make sense
15:43:23 [Zakim]: -AdrianPa
15:44:01 [StellaMitchell]: axel: it comes from the presentation syntax, it would be easy to implement for the presentation syntax
15:44:27 [StellaMitchell]: axel: yes, I agree to change 4.3.4 to 2 argument version
15:44:33 [ChrisW]: action: change 4.3.4 to a two arg function (string,lang)
15:44:33 [trackbot]: Sorry, couldn't find user - change
15:44:49 [ChrisW]: action axel: change 4.3.4 to a two arg function (string,lang)
15:44:49 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-542 - Change 4.3.4 to a two arg function (string,lang) [on Axel Polleres - due 2008-07-15].
15:45:12 [StellaMitchell]: axel: I think we should add a shortcut for rif:text then, in the presentation syntax
15:45:33 [StellaMitchell]: jos: that was discussed at length at f2f10, with no agreement
15:45:59 [StellaMitchell]: jos: also, 4.7.1, axel and I disagree over the name of the extraction function
15:46:27 [StellaMitchell]: ...it is inconsistent with the rest. I think it shojuld be called lang-from-text
15:46:49 [StellaMitchell]: axel: the others come from xquery, this one comes from sparql
15:47:09 [StellaMitchell]: ...but I could live with jos's naming
15:47:21 [StellaMitchell]: jos: it's all caps in sparql
15:47:37 [StellaMitchell]: axel, cw: sparql is not case sensitive
15:49:24 [DaveReynolds]: +0.1
15:49:30 [StellaMitchell]: cw: straw poll
15:49:35 [ChrisW]: Straw Poll +1 prefer func:lang, -1 prefer func:lang-from-text
15:49:41 [LeoraMorgenstern]: -1
15:49:42 [josb]: -1
15:49:46 [MichaelKifer]: 0
15:49:49 [AxelPolleres]: strawpoll: +1 lang -1 lang-from-XYZtext
15:49:53 [Harold]: -0.1
15:49:53 [AxelPolleres]: +1
15:50:23 [AdrianPa]: +1
15:50:52 [StellaMitchell]: cw: default is leaving it as is
15:51:20 [StellaMitchell]: axel: jos and I agreed to put editor's not on things we don't agree on, and get comments from external reviewers
15:51:34 [josb]: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/DTB#func:op:add-yearMonthDuration-to-dateTime_.28adapted_from_op:add-yearMonthDuration-to-dateTime.29
15:51:38 [StellaMitchell]: cw: other issues on casting?
15:52:06 [StellaMitchell]: jos: in the above DTB section, inconsistence in names
15:52:29 [StellaMitchell]: ...which is intended?
15:53:05 [StellaMitchell]: axel: can I fix this even though wiki says the document should not be changed
15:53:21 [StellaMitchell]: jos: it's just a simple editorial change
15:53:47 [StellaMitchell]: jos: the one in the schema is the correct name, right?
15:53:59 [StellaMitchell]: axel: yes
15:54:19 [MichaelKifer]: zakim, unmute me
15:54:19 [Zakim]: MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
15:54:35 [StellaMitchell]: mk: grammar changes are also ok, right?
15:54:39 [StellaMitchell]: cw: yes
15:54:45 [MichaelKifer]: zakim, mute me
15:54:45 [Zakim]: MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:54:58 [AxelPolleres]: -1 to adding double-negations
15:55:04 [ChrisW]: zakim, take up item 7
15:55:04 [Zakim]: agendum 7. "Casting" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:55:05 [StellaMitchell]: cw: any other discjussion on DTB?
15:55:07 [ChrisW]: zakim, take up item 8
15:55:07 [Zakim]: agendum 8. "AOB" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:55:37 [StellaMitchell]: axel: I would like all the access phone numbers in the agenda emails
15:55:45 [ChrisW]: action: chris to update access numbers in agenda
15:55:45 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-543 - Update access numbers in agenda [on Christopher Welty - due 2008-07-15].
15:55:55 [StellaMitchell]: cw: any other business?
15:56:04 [ChrisW]: zakim, list attendees
15:56:04 [Zakim]: As of this point the attendees have been Dave_Reynolds, ChrisW, LeoraMorgenstern, josb, StellaMitchell, AxelPolleres, Harold, AdrianP, MichaelKifer, AdrianPa
15:56:07 [Zakim]: -Harold
15:56:14 [Zakim]: -MichaelKifer
15:56:16 [Zakim]: -LeoraMorgenstern
15:56:17 [Zakim]: -Dave_Reynolds
15:56:19 [Zakim]: -josb
15:56:21 [Zakim]: -StellaMitchell
15:56:22 [StellaMitchell]: sorry, calling back
15:56:41 [ChrisW]: Regrets: Gary Hallmark PaulVincent Sandro Hawke Hassan A�t-Kaci
15:56:49 [ChrisW]: rrsagent, make minutes
15:56:49 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/08-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
15:56:49 [Zakim]: +[IBM]
15:56:56 [Zakim]: -AxelPolleres
15:57:12 [Zakim]: -ChrisW
15:57:13 [Zakim]: -[IBM]
15:57:13 [Zakim]: SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
15:57:14 [Zakim]: Attendees were Dave_Reynolds, ChrisW, LeoraMorgenstern, josb, StellaMitchell, AxelPolleres, Harold, AdrianP, MichaelKifer, AdrianPa, [IBM]