14:48:45 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:48:45 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/07/08-rif-irc
14:48:52 <ChrisW> zakim, this will be rif
14:48:52 <Zakim> ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes
14:49:04 <ChrisW> Meeting: RIF Telecon 8 Jul 2008
14:49:10 <ChrisW> Chair: Chris Welty
14:49:24 <ChrisW> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Jul/0088.html
14:49:36 <ChrisW> ChrisW has changed the topic to: 8 July 2008 RIF Telecon Agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Jul/0088.html
14:49:58 <ChrisW> zakim, clear agenda
14:49:58 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:50:04 <ChrisW> agenda+ Admin
14:50:14 <ChrisW> agenda+ Liason
14:50:19 <ChrisW> agenda+ F2F11
14:50:24 <ChrisW> agenda+ Action Review
14:50:30 <ChrisW> agenda+ Document review
14:50:38 <ChrisW> agenda+ Mime Types
14:50:46 <ChrisW> agenda+ Casting
14:50:50 <ChrisW> agenda+ AOB
14:51:06 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
14:51:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/08-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
14:51:16 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make logs public
15:00:33 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:01:13 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:01:20 <Zakim> +??P18
15:01:34 <Zakim> +Dave_Reynolds (was ??P18)
15:01:40 <Zakim> +ChrisW
15:01:47 <LeoraMorgenstern> LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
15:01:59 <StellaMitchell> StellaMitchell has joined #rif
15:02:28 <josb> josb has joined #rif
15:02:29 <Zakim> +LeoraMorgenstern
15:02:33 <Zakim> +josb
15:02:40 <Harold> Harold has joined #rif
15:03:31 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has joined #rif
15:03:34 <Zakim> +[NRCC]
15:03:41 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:03:43 <Zakim> +??P38
15:03:53 <StellaMitchell> zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:03:53 <Zakim> +StellaMitchell; got it
15:05:24 <ChrisW> zakim, pick a victim
15:05:24 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose ChrisW
15:05:29 <ChrisW> zakim, pick a victim
15:05:29 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose josb
15:05:32 <ChrisW> zakim, pick a victim
15:05:33 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose ChrisW
15:05:35 <ChrisW> zakim, pick a victim
15:05:35 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose [NRCC]
15:05:46 <StellaMitchell> I can scribe
15:05:54 <ChrisW> zakim, pick a victim
15:05:54 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose StellaMitchell
15:05:57 <StellaMitchell> yes
15:06:09 <ChrisW> Scribe: StellaMitchell
15:06:27 <ChrisW> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Jul/att-0037/20080701-RIF-minutes.html
15:06:36 <ChrisW> Zakim, next item
15:06:36 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:06:49 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: accept Minutes from July 1 telecon
15:06:52 <StellaMitchell> cw: any objections to accepting minutes from last week?
15:06:56 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept Minutes from July 1 telecon
15:07:06 <AdrianP> AdrianP has joined #rif
15:07:11 <StellaMitchell> cw: any agenda ammendments?
15:07:31 <ChrisW> zakim, take up item 3
15:07:33 <Zakim> agendum 3. "F2F11" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:07:41 <Harold> zakim, [NRCC] is temporarily me
15:07:41 <Zakim> +Harold; got it
15:08:16 <StellaMitchell> cw: next f2f end of Sept in NY. I would like to know whether people prefer Hawnthorne or at IBM facility in Manhattan
15:08:37 <josb> +1 Manhattan
15:08:40 <StellaMitchell> cw: please let me know if you have a preference. Default is in Hawthorne
15:08:41 <AxelPolleres> I prefer the lower cost options to some extent.
15:08:44 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:08:44 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:08:49 <ChrisW> zakim, take up item 4
15:08:49 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Action Review" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:09:21 <AxelPolleres> yes, I did
15:09:24 <StellaMitchell> cw: all  documents are frozen except for FLD?
15:09:27 <StellaMitchell> harold: yes
15:09:44 <StellaMitchell> job: rdf/owl is not frozen. I'm waiting for BLD freeze, and wiki was broken today
15:09:58 <AxelPolleres> I will also send some more comments to you by tonite, jos.
15:10:00 <StellaMitchell> josb: it will be ready to be frozen tomorrow
15:10:31 <StellaMitchell> harold: FLD is promised by this friday, but will try for earlier
15:10:54 <StellaMitchell> cw: action review
15:11:02 <StellaMitchell> action-538 completed
15:11:10 <StellaMitchell> action-537 completed
15:11:20 <StellaMitchell> action-534 continued
15:11:59 <Zakim> +??P32
15:12:10 <StellaMitchell> action-530 will be complete by friday
15:12:14 <AdrianP> Zakim, P32 is me
15:12:14 <Zakim> sorry, AdrianP, I do not recognize a party named 'P32'
15:12:26 <AdrianP> Zakim, who is on the phone
15:12:26 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', AdrianP
15:12:41 <AdrianP> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:12:41 <Zakim> On the phone I see Dave_Reynolds, ChrisW, LeoraMorgenstern, josb, Harold, StellaMitchell, AxelPolleres, ??P32
15:12:54 <AdrianP> Zakim, ??P32 is me
15:12:54 <Zakim> +AdrianP; got it
15:13:02 <AdrianP> Zakim, mute me
15:13:02 <Zakim> AdrianP should now be muted
15:13:08 <StellaMitchell> jos: review of FLD by next tuesday
15:13:36 <ChrisW> zakim, list agenda
15:13:36 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
15:13:37 <Zakim> 1. Admin [from ChrisW]
15:13:37 <Zakim> 2. Liason [from ChrisW]
15:13:38 <Zakim> 4. Action Review [from ChrisW]
15:13:38 <Zakim> 5. Document review [from ChrisW]
15:13:39 <Zakim> 6. Mime Types [from ChrisW]
15:13:39 <Zakim> 8. AOB [from ChrisW]
15:13:45 <ChrisW> zakim, take up item 5
15:13:45 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Document review" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:14:06 <AdrianP> Zakim, unmute me
15:14:06 <Zakim> AdrianP should no longer be muted
15:14:12 <StellaMitchell> cw: dtb is frozen and waiting for my review
15:14:34 <StellaMitchell> cw: adrian, is there a person assigned to review UCR?
15:14:43 <StellaMitchell> adrian: no, not yet
15:14:50 <StellaMitchell> cw: volunteer to review UCR?
15:14:57 <ChrisW> zakim, pick a victim
15:14:57 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose AxelPolleres
15:14:59 <AdrianP> Zakim, mute me
15:14:59 <Zakim> AdrianP should now be muted
15:15:10 <ChrisW> zakim, pick a victim
15:15:10 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose AdrianP (muted)
15:15:16 <StellaMitchell> I can review UCR
15:15:49 <ChrisW> action: Stella to review UCR for next WD
15:15:49 <trackbot> Created ACTION-539 - Review UCR for next WD [on Stella Mitchell - due 2008-07-15].
15:16:19 <StellaMitchell> cw: BLD will be reviewed by Leora
15:16:26 <StellaMitchell> cw: FLD by chris and jos
15:16:27 <josb> q+
15:16:46 <StellaMitchell> yes, by end of week
15:16:57 <StellaMitchell> cw: DTB by Chris
15:17:21 <StellaMitchell> cw: rdf/owl ready for review by tomorrow
15:17:39 <StellaMitchell> s/by chris and jos/by chris and jos by next tuesday/
15:17:43 <ChrisW> Action: Axel to review BLD for LC
15:17:43 <trackbot> Created ACTION-540 - Review BLD for LC [on Axel Polleres - due 2008-07-15].
15:17:55 <StellaMitchell> s/by Leora/by Leora by friday/
15:18:08 <StellaMitchell> cw: prd is already reviewed
15:18:29 <StellaMitchell> jos: and I will review BLD by the end of this week
15:18:45 <ChrisW> action: jos to review bld
15:18:45 <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - jos
15:18:45 <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jdebruij2, jderoo)
15:18:55 <ChrisW> action: jdebruij2 to review bld
15:18:55 <trackbot> Created ACTION-541 - Review bld [on Jos de Bruijn - due 2008-07-15].
15:19:07 <josb> q-
15:19:22 <ChrisW> zakim, take up item 6
15:19:22 <Zakim> agendum 6. "Mime Types" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:19:46 <StellaMitchell> cw: Sandro put the mime types in BLD. Has anyone reviewed?
15:19:55 <StellaMitchell> harold: yes, it looks good
15:20:11 <StellaMitchell> cw: do you need any changes?
15:20:29 <StellaMitchell> harold: no, it's fine. Security is an open ended topic.
15:21:03 <StellaMitchell> harold:  he talks about documents that come by dereferencing, but not about other things such as computaiton that does not end
15:21:20 <DaveReynolds> Surely the current wording addresses both?
15:21:24 <StellaMitchell> harold: so, he picks one particular example, but doesn't mention other cases
15:21:52 <StellaMitchell> cw: are you talking about implementations or specific rule sets?
15:22:08 <MichaelKifer> MichaelKifer has joined #rif
15:22:33 <StellaMitchell> harold: yes, he doesn't mention rule sets that will cause compuation that doesn't end
15:22:43 <Harold> Sandro mentions: "Through the use of "import", it may
15:22:43 <Harold>           also require arbitrary URI dereferencing, which may consume
15:22:43 <Harold>           all available network resources on the consuming system or
15:22:43 <Harold>           other systems."
15:22:49 <StellaMitchell> daver: I think the current text covers that case
15:23:07 <StellaMitchell> cw: yes, I also think is does
15:23:51 <StellaMitchell> harold: ok
15:24:01 <Zakim> +MichaelKifer
15:24:02 <StellaMitchell> s/is does/it does/
15:24:14 <StellaMitchell> cw: any other comments on mime type?
15:24:33 <ChrisW> zakim, take up item 7
15:24:33 <Zakim> agendum 7. "Casting" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:24:38 <MichaelKifer> zakim, mute me
15:24:38 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:25:12 <StellaMitchell> cw: axel, can you summarize this issue?
15:25:38 <StellaMitchell> axel: in the DTB document, section 4.3 cast and conversion functions
15:26:07 <StellaMitchell> axel: casts from and to rif:iri - do we want these, and how should we do them
15:26:15 <Zakim> -AdrianP
15:26:28 <StellaMitchell> ...and there was also a question about from rif:text to string
15:26:49 <StellaMitchell> ....first, we have to wait until we resolve rif:text with owl working group
15:27:02 <StellaMitchell> ...should conversion take only the string, or the string with the language tag
15:27:11 <StellaMitchell> ...both would be fine, currently only take the string part
15:28:09 <StellaMitchell> ... rif: iri  (4.3.5 and 4.3.6)  function style is possible in one direction, if we define axiomatic equalities (4.3.5)
15:28:14 <AdrianP> AdrianP has joined #rif
15:28:32 <StellaMitchell> ... but this is not possible in the other direction, because the axioms would cause inconsistencies
15:28:43 <josb> q+
15:28:50 <StellaMitchell> ... I prefer functions wherever possible, and predicate only where function can't be used
15:29:14 <StellaMitchell> .... (as opposed to making from and to rif:iri both predicates)
15:29:33 <ChrisW> ack jos
15:29:48 <StellaMitchell> ....mk and jos said the predicate will cover both directions of casting
15:30:27 <StellaMitchell> jos: yes, the function is redundant, and another argument against 4.3.5 is that is is not a function in the way that the other casting functions are, because rif:iri is not a data type
15:31:16 <StellaMitchell> axel: I agree that what you say is true, but still want to leave it the way it is
15:31:57 <StellaMitchell> jos: simpler and more understandable to have the one predicate 
15:32:14 <StellaMitchell> cw: are you arguing to use this method for all cases?
15:32:21 <StellaMitchell> jos: no, just rif:iri
15:32:26 <AxelPolleres> q+
15:32:31 <StellaMitchell> cw: what about doing it for all?
15:33:03 <StellaMitchell> jos: possible, but maybe not natural, because we are following xquery, and because they are actually functions
15:33:17 <StellaMitchell> ...but I still wouldn't be completely against it
15:33:46 <StellaMitchell> axel: predicates makes writing things more complicated
15:33:55 <ChrisW> ack axel
15:33:57 <StellaMitchell> cw: any other opinions?
15:34:31 <MichaelKifer> I agree with Jos.
15:35:08 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:35:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see Dave_Reynolds, ChrisW, LeoraMorgenstern, josb, Harold, StellaMitchell, AxelPolleres, MichaelKifer (muted)
15:35:31 <ChrisW> Axel +1, Jos -1
15:35:34 <StellaMitchell> cw: straw poll,
15:35:41 <josb> -1
15:35:42 <DaveReynolds> -0.1
15:35:44 <AxelPolleres> Strawpoll: Keep 4.3.5: +1 drop: -1
15:35:45 <Harold> 0
15:35:48 <MichaelKifer> -1
15:35:49 <AxelPolleres> +1
15:35:49 <LeoraMorgenstern> -1
15:35:53 <StellaMitchell> -1
15:36:32 <AdrianP> 0
15:37:02 <StellaMitchell> cw: I will put this in the form of a proposed resolution (jos's proposal) and let people know that we'll be voting on it next week
15:37:36 <StellaMitchell> jos: what about between rif:text and strings?
15:38:16 <StellaMitchell> jos... the issue is from rif:text to string. according to current spec, you lose the language when casting from rif:text to string
15:38:23 <DaveReynolds> q+
15:38:24 <Zakim> +??P8
15:38:39 <StellaMitchell> ...but the other direction is only defined for strings that have language id embedded
15:38:50 <ChrisW> adrian is that you?
15:39:23 <AxelPolleres> casting from string to numbers is also not round-drippable... "0001"
15:39:30 <AdrianPa> AdrianPa has joined #rif
15:39:36 <StellaMitchell> daver: casting from text to string, using only the string part make sense to me. but is there also a 2 argument constructor to create a string, and also an extractor to get the lang from the string
15:39:55 <StellaMitchell> jos: I think we don't have the constructor
15:40:02 <AdrianPa> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:40:02 <Zakim> On the phone I see Dave_Reynolds, ChrisW, LeoraMorgenstern, josb, Harold, StellaMitchell, AxelPolleres, MichaelKifer (muted), ??P8
15:40:12 <AdrianPa> Zakim, ??P8 is me
15:40:12 <Zakim> +AdrianPa; got it
15:40:18 <AdrianPa> Zakim, mute me
15:40:18 <Zakim> AdrianPa should now be muted
15:41:09 <StellaMitchell> axel: I don't agree with the roundtripping argument because (?)..... and also then it would be complicated to get out the string part
15:41:42 <AdrianPa> sorry, dropped out. I'm currently travelling and do not have a stable line
15:42:03 <StellaMitchell> jos: I now agree with dave's idea that we change the cast in 4.3.4 to take 2 arguments
15:42:36 <StellaMitchell> jos: ...first literal string and second language tag
15:43:20 <StellaMitchell> cw: I agree that current cast doesn't really make sense
15:43:23 <Zakim> -AdrianPa
15:44:01 <StellaMitchell> axel: it comes from the presentation syntax, it would be easy to implement for the presentation syntax
15:44:27 <StellaMitchell> axel: yes, I agree to change 4.3.4 to 2 argument version
15:44:33 <ChrisW> action: change 4.3.4 to a two arg function (string,lang)
15:44:33 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - change
15:44:49 <ChrisW> action axel: change 4.3.4 to a two arg function (string,lang)
15:44:49 <trackbot> Created ACTION-542 - Change 4.3.4 to a two arg function (string,lang) [on Axel Polleres - due 2008-07-15].
15:45:12 <StellaMitchell> axel: I think we should add a shortcut for rif:text then, in the presentation syntax
15:45:33 <StellaMitchell> jos: that was discussed at length at f2f10, with no agreement
15:45:59 <StellaMitchell> jos: also, 4.7.1, axel and I disagree over the name of the extraction function
15:46:27 <StellaMitchell> ...it is inconsistent with the rest. I think it shojuld be called lang-from-text
15:46:49 <StellaMitchell> axel: the others come from xquery, this one comes from sparql
15:47:09 <StellaMitchell> ...but I could live with jos's naming
15:47:21 <StellaMitchell> jos: it's all caps in sparql
15:47:37 <StellaMitchell> axel, cw: sparql is not case sensitive
15:49:24 <DaveReynolds> +0.1
15:49:30 <StellaMitchell> cw: straw poll
15:49:35 <ChrisW> Straw Poll +1 prefer func:lang, -1 prefer func:lang-from-text
15:49:41 <LeoraMorgenstern> -1
15:49:42 <josb> -1
15:49:46 <MichaelKifer> 0
15:49:49 <AxelPolleres> strawpoll: +1 lang -1 lang-from-XYZtext
15:49:53 <Harold> -0.1
15:49:53 <AxelPolleres> +1
15:50:23 <AdrianPa> +1
15:50:52 <StellaMitchell> cw: default is leaving it as is
15:51:20 <StellaMitchell> axel: jos and I agreed to put editor's not on things we don't agree on, and get comments from external reviewers
15:51:34 <josb> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/DTB#func:op:add-yearMonthDuration-to-dateTime_.28adapted_from_op:add-yearMonthDuration-to-dateTime.29
15:51:38 <StellaMitchell> cw: other issues on casting?
15:52:06 <StellaMitchell> jos: in the above DTB section, inconsistence in names
15:52:29 <StellaMitchell> ...which is intended?
15:53:05 <StellaMitchell> axel:  can I fix this even though wiki says the document should not be changed
15:53:21 <StellaMitchell> jos: it's just a simple editorial change
15:53:47 <StellaMitchell> jos: the one in the schema is the correct name, right?
15:53:59 <StellaMitchell> axel: yes
15:54:19 <MichaelKifer> zakim, unmute me
15:54:19 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
15:54:35 <StellaMitchell> mk: grammar changes are also ok, right?
15:54:39 <StellaMitchell> cw: yes
15:54:45 <MichaelKifer> zakim, mute me
15:54:45 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:54:58 <AxelPolleres> -1 to adding double-negations
15:55:04 <ChrisW> zakim, take up item 7
15:55:04 <Zakim> agendum 7. "Casting" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:55:05 <StellaMitchell> cw: any other discjussion on DTB?
15:55:07 <ChrisW> zakim, take up item 8
15:55:07 <Zakim> agendum 8. "AOB" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:55:37 <StellaMitchell> axel: I would like all the access phone numbers in the agenda emails
15:55:45 <ChrisW> action: chris to update access numbers in agenda
15:55:45 <trackbot> Created ACTION-543 - Update access numbers in agenda [on Christopher Welty - due 2008-07-15].
15:55:55 <StellaMitchell> cw: any other business?
15:56:04 <ChrisW> zakim, list attendees
15:56:04 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Dave_Reynolds, ChrisW, LeoraMorgenstern, josb, StellaMitchell, AxelPolleres, Harold, AdrianP, MichaelKifer, AdrianPa
15:56:07 <Zakim> -Harold
15:56:14 <Zakim> -MichaelKifer
15:56:16 <Zakim> -LeoraMorgenstern
15:56:17 <Zakim> -Dave_Reynolds
15:56:19 <Zakim> -josb
15:56:21 <Zakim> -StellaMitchell
15:56:22 <StellaMitchell> sorry, calling back
15:56:41 <ChrisW> Regrets: Gary Hallmark PaulVincent Sandro Hawke Hassan Aït-Kaci
15:56:49 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
15:56:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/08-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
15:56:49 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:56:56 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres
15:57:12 <Zakim> -ChrisW
15:57:13 <Zakim> -[IBM]
15:57:13 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
15:57:14 <Zakim> Attendees were Dave_Reynolds, ChrisW, LeoraMorgenstern, josb, StellaMitchell, AxelPolleres, Harold, AdrianP, MichaelKifer, AdrianPa, [IBM]