IRC log of xproc on 2008-07-03

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:45:41 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
14:45:43 [Zakim]
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14:45:45 [Norm]
Zakim, this will be xproc
14:45:45 [Zakim]
ok, Norm; I see XML_PMWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 15 minutes
14:45:47 [Norm]
Meeting: XML Processing Model WG
14:45:47 [Norm]
Date: 3 July 2008
14:45:47 [Norm]
14:45:47 [Norm]
Meeting: 118
14:45:47 [Norm]
Chair: Norm
14:45:48 [Norm]
Scribe: Norm
14:45:50 [Norm]
ScribeNick: Norm
14:45:52 [Norm]
Regrets: Richard
14:46:01 [Norm]
Norm has changed the topic to: XProc WG meets 3 July:
14:48:48 [ruilopes]
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14:55:25 [PGrosso]
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14:59:14 [Zakim]
XML_PMWG()11:00AM has now started
14:59:15 [Zakim]
15:00:27 [Zakim]
15:01:06 [Zakim]
15:01:18 [ruilopes]
Zakim, [I is me
15:01:18 [Zakim]
+ruilopes; got it
15:02:55 [ht]
zakim, what's the code?
15:02:55 [Zakim]
the conference code is 97762 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), ht
15:03:23 [Zakim]
15:03:25 [Zakim]
15:03:25 [Zakim]
15:03:27 [Vojtech]
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15:03:32 [ht]
zakimm, ? is ht
15:03:37 [MoZ]
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15:03:39 [ht]
zakim, ? is ht
15:03:40 [Zakim]
+ht; got it
15:03:47 [MoZ]
Zakim, what is the code ?
15:03:50 [Zakim]
the conference code is 97762 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), MoZ
15:04:26 [MoZ]
Zakim, who is here?
15:04:26 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Norm, PGrosso, ruilopes, ht
15:04:27 [Zakim]
On IRC I see MoZ, Vojtech, PGrosso, ruilopes, Zakim, RRSAgent, Norm, ht, MSM
15:04:55 [Zakim]
15:05:03 [Zakim]
15:06:56 [MoZ]
Zakim, ?? is me
15:06:56 [Zakim]
sorry, MoZ, I do not recognize a party named '??'
15:07:10 [ht]
zakim, ? is MoZ
15:07:10 [Zakim]
sorry, ht, I do not recognize a party named '?'
15:07:17 [ht]
zakim, P1 is MoZ
15:07:17 [Zakim]
sorry, ht, I do not recognize a party named 'P1'
15:07:32 [Norm]
Present: Norm, Paul, Rui, Henry, Vojtech, Mohamed
15:08:22 [Norm]
Topic: Accept this agenda?
15:08:22 [Norm]
15:08:26 [Norm]
15:08:40 [Norm]
Topic: Accept minutes from the previous meeting?
15:08:40 [Norm]
15:08:42 [Norm]
15:08:52 [Norm]
Topic: Next meeting: telcon 3 July 2008?
15:08:59 [Norm]
s/3 July/10 July/
15:09:16 [Norm]
Henry gives regrets.
15:09:49 [Norm]
Topic: Comments on latest editor's draft
15:11:33 [Norm]
Norm summarizes his recent changes wrt xpath-version
15:12:12 [Norm]
No other comments.
15:12:21 [Norm]
Topic: XSLT functions in XProc expressions
15:13:29 [Norm]
15:14:53 [Norm]
Norm summarizes, he'd like to forbid them all.
15:16:57 [Norm]
Mohamed pushes back and suggests that we need generate-id() especially for XPath 1.0 implementatios.
15:17:07 [ht]
zakim, mute me
15:17:07 [Zakim]
ht should now be muted
15:19:13 [Norm]
Norm: I'd prefer the simplicity of forbidding them all and come back to it if someone demonstrates a real need for it.
15:19:22 [Norm]
Mohamed: That's ok for me.
15:19:58 [Norm]
Proposal: XProc processors are not required to implement any functions defined only in XSLT.
15:20:11 [Norm]
15:21:02 [Norm]
ACTION: Norm to add information about which functions must be implemented and note that XSLT functions do not have to be implemented.
15:21:11 [ht]
zakim, unmute me
15:21:11 [Zakim]
ht should no longer be muted
15:21:23 [Norm]
Topic: Consider schema imports
15:21:59 [Norm]
15:26:11 [Norm]
Henry: It's very clear that the winged hourse allows you to find the type hierarchy. It doesn't let you do things with substitution groups, for example.
15:27:10 [Norm]
Norm: So we couldn't do element construction (which we don't), substitution groups, or the validate expression.
15:27:53 [Norm]
Henry: We could put schema import in, identify it as a feature at risk, and then we could remove it. If we leave it out and ask for feedback, we could be pushed back to Last Call again.
15:30:52 [Norm]
Norm: Yes. I suppose the best thing we can do is add the feature and make it optional. So basic processors can skip it. Schema-aware processors will be able to use types, etc. And identify it as a feature that might get removed if there's strong opposition.
15:32:29 [Norm]
Henry: Seems like a good compromise to me.
15:32:49 [Norm]
Norm: I think we should forbid references to non-builtin schema types if it doesn't support schema import.
15:33:06 [Norm]
Henry: I disagree. I just want to grab an XPath 2 library and use the winged horse.
15:34:13 [Norm]
Norm: In XSLT, you can't refer to a hatsize unless you've imported the schema that defines hatsize.
15:35:12 [Norm]
Mohamed: Where do we use this element?
15:35:47 [Norm]
Norm: At the top of your pipeline.
15:36:07 [Norm]
Mohamed: In XSLT, it's clear that when we manipulate a sequence of documents, they are related. In XProc, that's not the case.
15:36:36 [Norm]
...Importing a schema for all the pipeline, even if there will be conflicts.
15:37:26 [Norm]
Norm is confused.
15:37:55 [Norm]
Mohamed: Imagine I have a pipeline that's supposed to handle XHTML 1, XHTML 2, and XHTML 3. They're all in the same namespace, but they have different definitions.
15:39:11 [Norm]
Norm: How will you check?
15:39:21 [Norm]
Mohamed: By looking for an element, html:h, for example
15:39:30 [Norm]
Norm: So you don't need a schema for that
15:39:48 [Norm]
Mohamed: But in each branch, I might want to be able to do tests with the right types.
15:42:33 [Norm]
Mohamed: We could add schema-import everywhere that p:namespaces is allowed. Importing may not be sufficient if we want to handle all the cases.
15:42:53 [Norm]
...But if we just want to handle some of the cases, and we want to support substitution groups, then it's probably ok to just put it at the top.
15:43:43 [Norm]
Proposal: We'll add p:schema-import, allowed at the top of a pipeline, to provide schema definitions. This is an optional feature.
15:44:13 [Norm]
...We'll note that it may not be sufficient to handle all the possible cases where a pipeline needs to check the types of elements that come from documents using different versions of the namespace.
15:44:40 [Norm]
...We'll leave open for the moment the question of whether or not it's legal to refer to t:hatsize without having imported the schema that defines it.
15:44:48 [ht]
I've sent another email -- Norm is right
15:45:58 [Norm]
So scratch the last bit. It is an error if you write an xpath who's type is not in the static context.
15:46:48 [Norm]
15:47:04 [Norm]
ACTION: Norm to implement p:schema-import.
15:47:18 [Norm]
Mohamed: I think we're opening a new box that may have a lot of side-effects on components.
15:47:38 [Norm]
...What happens to the context passed to the steps?
15:52:41 [Norm]
Henry: If it's not the static context for xpath evaluation that's effected by schema import, what is?
15:55:26 [Norm]
Norm: It is the static context. But what about the static context for steps.
15:55:36 [Norm]
Mohamed: I think this won't help if we want to go to last call quickly.
15:56:35 [Norm]
Norm: Indeed.
15:57:19 [Norm]
Henry: We can add this and make it an optional feature. We can also mark it as a feature that is at risk.
15:57:30 [Norm]
...That way we can proceed from last call without it.
15:57:42 [Norm]
...So if no one says, I require this, then we can get rid of it without going back.
15:58:01 [Norm]
ACTION: Editor to write it up and see what it looks like.
15:58:45 [Norm]
Vojtech: It may be difficult to specify the behavior when importing other subpipelines.
15:58:53 [Norm]
Mohamed: Visibility will definitely be an issue.
15:59:04 [Norm]
Henry: The analogy with XSLT is our friend. Whatever they do, we should do.
15:59:17 [Zakim]
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15:59:19 [Zakim]
15:59:20 [Zakim]
15:59:20 [Zakim]
15:59:22 [Zakim]
15:59:23 [Zakim]
XML_PMWG()11:00AM has ended
15:59:26 [Zakim]
Attendees were Norm, PGrosso, [IPcaller], ruilopes, ht, Vojtech, MoZ
15:59:28 [Norm]
Topic: Any other business
15:59:30 [Norm]
Out of time.
15:59:34 [Norm]
15:59:39 [Norm]
RRSAgent, set logs world-visible
15:59:43 [Norm]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:59:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Norm
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