IRC log of ua on 2008-07-03

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:58:11 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
17:58:12 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-ua-irc
17:58:27 [jeanne]
zakim, code?
17:58:27 [Zakim]
sorry, jeanne, I don't know what conference this is
17:58:48 [jeanne]
meeting: WAI-UA
17:59:04 [jeanne]
Chair: Judy
17:59:17 [jeanne]
zakim, code
17:59:17 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'code', jeanne
17:59:22 [jeanne]
zakim, code?
17:59:22 [Zakim]
sorry, jeanne, I don't know what conference this is
17:59:59 [KFord]
KFord has joined #ua
18:02:48 [jeanne]
agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JulSep/0004.html
18:05:03 [Jan]
Zakim, this will be UAWG
18:05:03 [Zakim]
ok, Jan, I see WAI_UAWG()2:00PM already started
18:05:27 [Jan]
Scribe: Jan
18:05:34 [Jan]
All; Introductions
18:05:46 [jeanne]
Present+ Kelly_Ford, Simon_Harper, Jan_Richards, Judy_Brewer, Mark_Hakkinen, Jeanne_Spellman
18:06:02 [Jan]
Including new members Simon Harper and Mark Hakkinen.
18:06:29 [Jan]
JB: Jim Allan is on vacation...way offline
18:06:55 [Jan]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JulSep/0004.html
18:07:26 [Jan]
JS: This doc (http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2008/keyboardProposals20080702.html)...
18:07:46 [Jan]
JS: Comes from me trying to follow what's going on...so I've brought it all together into one document
18:08:03 [Jan]
JS: Once I did it, it seems like a useful thing to share
18:08:15 [Jan]
JS: So now looks different than usual
18:08:31 [Zakim]
-Judy
18:08:33 [Jan]
JS: Ifyou look at it...took allgls in 4.1
18:08:48 [Jan]
JS: Each has existing text and then proposed text
18:09:41 [Jan]
JS: Tried to put proposals in as Notes for reference purposes
18:10:00 [Jan]
JS: Let's start at 4.1...we were missing an introduction
18:11:10 [Zakim]
+Judy
18:11:35 [Jan]
KF: Comment...how specific...before rattling off populations...needs to summarize all users...
18:11:56 [Jan]
KF: Say"accomodating a wide range of users that includes..."
18:13:02 [Jan]
JR: No other intros...but ok...many musts.
18:13:45 [Jan]
JB: Should not be ad libbing structure of doc
18:13:55 [Jan]
JR: ATAG has rationale
18:14:21 [Jan]
JB: Some people may try and grab guideline level text as normative even if we say its not
18:14:30 [Jan]
JB: Can we move this somewhere else
18:14:31 [Judy]
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18:15:06 [Jan]
JR: Can we reuse another structur...do we need it ? Or can it be rationale?
18:15:09 [Jan]
JS: Yes
18:15:09 [Judy]
Judy has joined #ua
18:15:36 [Jan]
JS: I added because of difficulties JB was having in TEITAC...that's where I was coming from...I'm not attached to it
18:15:53 [Jan]
JB: Reason for doing=Rationale
18:16:00 [Jan]
JB: Looking at ATAG...
18:16:29 [Jan]
JB: Another reason for being conservative here is that we need it all throgu UAAG2
18:16:51 [Jan]
JB: Looking at wcag2...they have principle, guideline and success criteria
18:17:08 [Jan]
JB: Principle, guideline very terse
18:17:25 [Jan]
JB: They handle rationale by passing person to Understanding doc
18:17:36 [Jan]
SH: Looks like a defintion
18:18:02 [Jan]
SH: Less like rationale
18:18:29 [Jan]
JB: Think rationale comes through and defintiion is there too
18:18:49 [Jan]
JB: Each of 3 sentences is different
18:18:55 [Jan]
SH: Def section?
18:19:00 [Jan]
JB: Yes a glossary
18:19:20 [Jan]
JB: I'm wondering about "most universal" construct
18:19:31 [Jan]
SH: Can I volunteer to rewrite?
18:19:35 [Jan]
JB: Just a sec...
18:19:45 [Jan]
JB: Do we want rationale under each.
18:20:08 [Jan]
KF: Think we do want "Rationale"
18:20:18 [Jan]
MH: I like rationale there.short and sweet
18:20:24 [Jan]
MH: Like ATAG
18:20:44 [Jan]
JB: Thought exercise...on "rationale" if we skim rest of UAAG2 draft...
18:21:24 [Jan]
JR: I think so.
18:21:30 [Jan]
JB: Let's just look....
18:22:26 [Jan]
JB: Picking...3.6
18:22:58 [Jan]
JR: Think we can
18:23:24 [Jan]
JB: 4.3...
18:24:24 [Jan]
SH: Pragmatically...if we can't create rationale...there is a prob
18:24:39 [Jan]
JB: Right...apologize for playing devil's advocate
18:25:10 [Jan]
JB: Just worried by how many meetings would be required
18:25:19 [Jan]
MH: How many people?
18:25:32 [Jan]
JB: Participation hasn't stabilized.
18:25:45 [Jan]
JB: Prob. 7-8 core by sept
18:25:55 [Jan]
MH: I have some level of energy for this
18:26:19 [Jan]
SH: Maybe let's see how it works for keyboard
18:27:08 [Jan]
JR: We can borrow a lot from ATAG
18:27:42 [Jan]
JB: I appreicate enthusiamsm from Simon and Mark...do wyou want to look at drafting...incl importing from ATAG.
18:28:20 [Jan]
SH: Maybe lets's do 1.2, 2.2, 3....
18:28:28 [Jan]
JB: Good idea
18:28:42 [Jan]
JB: For approach let's do as concisely as possible
18:29:36 [Jan]
JB: So JS if you feel anything will be lost...maybe propose way of moving them back
18:29:51 [Jan]
JS: THink its all there below...I was just trying to make it clear
18:30:03 [Jan]
JB: So nothing more to talk about re: 4.1 paragraph
18:30:28 [Jan]
Topic: 4.1.1
18:30:50 [Jan]
JB: Existing, Proposed,...
18:34:02 [Judy]
action: SH draft new rationale text for 4.1 keyboard shortcuts
18:34:25 [Judy]
action: MH draft rational text for each x.1 guideline
18:35:09 [Jan]
JR: Just wants to make sure "functionality" is clear enough
18:35:24 [Judy]
http://www.w3.org/TR/UAAG10-TECHS/
18:36:19 [Jan]
JB: We seem ok with Jeanne's proposal
18:36:40 [Jan]
Action JS: To record previous example "resizing window" in techniques
18:36:52 [Jan]
Topic: 4.1.2
18:37:05 [Jan]
JS: Only title change
18:37:18 [Jan]
JB: Some requirements moving away from titles
18:37:57 [Jan]
JB: So came to "Documentation of Precedence of Keystroke Processing"
18:38:13 [Jan]
JB: And another requirement had the same title
18:41:33 [Jan]
JB, JR: DDiscuss why there are 2 and why document is higher priority
18:41:46 [Jan]
JS: Wondering where it should be documented
18:42:02 [Jan]
JB: TEITAC had lots of dscussion on where things should be documented
18:42:34 [Jan]
JB: I recall I was on calls with KF where progress was made
18:43:05 [Jan]
JB: JS had some language..."prominent in the documentation"
18:43:40 [Jan]
JB: Maybe we could use the same wording...in the same place
18:43:54 [Jan]
JS: So co-located with list of shortcut keys
18:43:57 [Jan]
JR: Agreed
18:44:03 [Jan]
JB: Totle ok
18:44:08 [Jan]
JB: Ttle ok
18:44:30 [Jan]
Topic: 4.1.3
18:44:35 [Jan]
JB: No change
18:44:39 [Jan]
Topic: 4.1.4
18:44:41 [Jan]
JB: No change
18:44:43 [Jan]
Topic: 4.1.5
18:44:51 [Jan]
JB: Available keystrokes...
18:45:12 [Jan]
JB: So Jeanne tried to bring in some other stuff.
18:45:32 [Jan]
KF: Editorial..."both"
18:46:27 [Jan]
JR: Quite different than it was.
18:46:31 [Jan]
JS: Right
18:46:57 [Jan]
JB: We will come back to title
18:50:09 [Jan]
JR: Try to avoid "content"
18:52:53 [KFord]
Jan raised concerns over recognized.
18:54:39 [KFord]
4.5 rewritten to 4.1.5 Available Keyboard Shortcuts: The user can always determine available keyboard shortcuts by all of the following:
18:54:39 [KFord]
list of 3 items
18:54:39 [KFord]
• (a) A user setting in which keyboard shortcuts for currently available controls are visually displayed (e.g. an underlined letter or inclusion in a user
18:54:39 [KFord]
interface menu).
18:54:40 [KFord]
• (b) If a keyboard shortcut exists for a component, then it is available programmatically to assistive technology.
18:54:43 [KFord]
• (c) A list of all keyboard shortcuts that is prominent in the documentation.
18:54:45 [KFord]
list end
18:55:12 [KFord]
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18:56:29 [KFord]
JB: two concerns.
18:56:47 [KFord]
people thinking keyboard shortucts in content when we meant chrome.
18:58:20 [KFord]
JB explained user interface keyboard provision in response from Simon.
18:59:14 [KFord]
JB: 4.15 is the ability of the user to determine keyboard shortcuts in the way that works best for the way they are accessing the user agent e.g. screen reader, looking at product and such.
18:59:39 [KFord]
JB clarifying 4.1.5 and 4.1.7.
19:00:44 [KFord]
JAN expressed opinion that current proposal has lost key content.
19:01:46 [KFord]
Talk about meeting logistics. Can we meet for 90 minutes to make progress?
19:02:10 [KFord]
Anyone have a conflict going to 90 minutes asked by JB?
19:02:52 [KFord]
Simon expressed desire to start early verssu going late.
19:03:23 [KFord]
Simon willing to give the later time a chance.
19:03:59 [KFord]
JB: Going to try 90 minutes
19:04:16 [KFord]
JB: can we go 15 minutes past the hour.
19:04:47 [KFord]
JB: asked if group can go for 15 minutes.
19:04:57 [KFord]
KFord not able to but group will continue.
19:05:51 [jeanne]
scribe nick: jeanne
19:06:34 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft]
19:08:35 [jeanne]
ACTION: JS will write a new guideline that includes the requirements for content display of keyboard shortcuts.
19:10:36 [jeanne]
JB: is there a reason that the word "component" is used rather than User Interface Application Controls?
19:11:19 [jeanne]
JR: the length of the phrase. That was why we went toward "chrome" because that was recognized in the industry.
19:12:23 [jeanne]
SH: Let's drop the phrase "for a component" so it reads, If a keyboard shortcut exists, then it is available programmatically to assitive technology".
19:14:30 [jeanne]
JB: Flag 4.1.5 (c) for more discussion. JB is concerned that "prominent" may not be sufficient.
19:15:14 [Judy]
action: JS draft a content-oriented keyboard shortcut proposal and check w/ Jan
19:16:03 [Zakim]
-Jeanne
19:16:05 [Zakim]
-??P13
19:16:11 [Zakim]
-??P31
19:16:20 [Zakim]
-Judy
19:16:26 [Zakim]
-??P28
19:16:27 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()2:00PM has ended
19:16:28 [jeanne]
zakim, who is here?
19:16:29 [Zakim]
Attendees were [Microsoft], Jeanne, Judy
19:16:30 [Zakim]
apparently WAI_UAWG()2:00PM has ended, jeanne
19:16:31 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Judy, RRSAgent, sharper, Zakim, jeanne, Jan
19:16:42 [jeanne]
present?
19:17:21 [Jan]
RRSAgent, make minutes
19:17:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-ua-minutes.html Jan
19:17:30 [Jan]
RRSAgent, set logs public
19:17:35 [jeanne]
present + Kelly_Reed, Simon_Harper, Jan_Richards, Markku Hakkenin
19:17:35 [Jan]
Zakim, bye
19:17:35 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
19:17:48 [Jan]
RRSAgent, bye
19:17:48 [RRSAgent]
I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-ua-actions.rdf :
19:17:48 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: SH draft new rationale text for 4.1 keyboard shortcuts [1]
19:17:48 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-ua-irc#T18-34-02
19:17:48 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: MH draft rational text for each x.1 guideline [2]
19:17:48 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-ua-irc#T18-34-25
19:17:48 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JS to To record previous example "resizing window" in techniques [3]
19:17:48 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-ua-irc#T18-36-40
19:17:48 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JS will write a new guideline that includes the requirements for content display of keyboard shortcuts. [4]
19:17:48 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-ua-irc#T19-08-35
19:17:48 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JS draft a content-oriented keyboard shortcut proposal and check w/ Jan [5]
19:17:48 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-ua-irc#T19-15-14