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10:32:01 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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10:32:03 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
10:32:03 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG()6:30AM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago
10:32:04 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
10:32:04 <trackbot> Date: 03 July 2008
10:32:15 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()6:30AM has now started
10:32:22 <Zakim> +??P0
10:32:28 <aemmons> zakim, ??p0 is me
10:32:28 <Zakim> +aemmons; got it
10:32:38 <Zakim> +??P1
10:32:40 <heycam> Zakim, ??P1 is me
10:32:40 <Zakim> +heycam; got it
10:32:54 <Zakim> +??P2
10:33:08 <anthony> Zakim, ??P2 is me
10:33:08 <Zakim> +anthony; got it
10:35:30 <ed_> ed_ has joined #svg
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10:36:32 <ed_> Zakim, ??P3 is me
10:36:32 <Zakim> +ed_; got it
10:36:58 <ed_> Zakim, who's here?
10:36:58 <Zakim> On the phone I see aemmons, heycam, anthony, ed_
10:36:59 <Zakim> On IRC I see ed_, Zakim, RRSAgent, anthony, aemmons, ed_work, shepazu, heycam, trackbot
10:38:03 <Zakim> +shadi
10:38:19 <ed_> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0168.html
10:38:21 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #svg
10:38:50 <ed_> Agenda+ test-fest
10:38:55 <ed_> Agenda+ svginhtml
10:39:31 <anthony> Scribe: anthony
10:39:33 <anthony> Chair: Erik
10:39:41 <anthony> Regrets: Doug
10:39:58 <Zakim> +??P5
10:40:21 <shepazu> ??P is me
10:40:22 <ed_> Agenda+ XHTML access module
10:40:25 <anthony> s/Doug/None/
10:40:37 <shepazu> Zakim, ??P is me
10:40:37 <Zakim> +shepazu; got it
10:42:29 <ChrisL> zakim, who is here?
10:42:30 <Zakim> On the phone I see aemmons, heycam, anthony, ed_, shadi, shepazu
10:42:30 <Zakim> On IRC I see ChrisL, ed_, Zakim, RRSAgent, anthony, aemmons, ed_work, shepazu, heycam, trackbot
10:42:42 <anthony> Zakim, move to next agendum
10:42:42 <Zakim> agendum 1. "test-fest" taken up [from ed_]
10:42:48 <shepazu> Zakim, shadi is ChrisL 
10:42:48 <Zakim> +ChrisL; got it
10:42:53 <ChrisL> zakim, shadi is ChrisL
10:42:53 <Zakim> sorry, ChrisL, I do not recognize a party named 'shadi'
10:43:04 <anthony> AE: I made the request to discuss this
10:43:12 <anthony> ... so we could have a test fest before SVG open
10:43:16 <anthony> ... time is running out for that
10:43:28 <anthony> ... wanted to see what the group thought about a test fest
10:43:37 <anthony> CL: So I thought we decided not to do it
10:43:48 <anthony> ... because of difficulties with people traveling
10:44:02 <anthony> AE: Wasn't sure, because on a call you could send someone
10:44:11 <anthony> CL: Just wondering if it's a bit late to do one
10:44:16 <anthony> ... but I can see value in doing it
10:44:22 <anthony> AE: It's all a bit connected
10:44:29 <anthony> ... because I thought we'd have the test suite published
10:44:39 <anthony> ... it's probably too late to have travel for sure
10:44:54 <anthony> ... so maybe there's another way of doing it if we are still keen
10:45:04 <anthony> ... even then there may not be time to do that
10:45:13 <anthony> ... because we have to send a request for implementations
10:45:43 <anthony> CL: We need to give people advanced notice
10:45:53 <anthony> ... in some ways I'd rather we organise something later
10:45:59 <anthony> ... just to give people the notice they need
10:46:08 <anthony> ... first thing is to get the test suite published
10:46:27 <anthony> AE: We also said there would be a Beta
10:46:31 <anthony> ... with a link with known issues
10:46:41 <anthony> ... the blocking item is simply putting it up
10:47:04 <anthony> ED: So what's the hold up with the test suite?
10:47:08 <anthony> ... it's not published?
10:47:27 <anthony> AE: Is it something that only a team or staff contact can do?
10:47:30 <anthony> CL: Yes it is
10:47:38 <anthony> ... planning to fix that
10:47:45 <anthony> ... once it's in the public repository
10:48:01 <anthony> ... I guess I could ask Sys Team to give access
10:48:20 <anthony> AE: I guess Doug is busy with a lot of other stuff
10:48:39 <anthony> ... if it was in the public repository
10:48:45 <anthony> ... might be able to be published
10:48:56 <anthony> CL: Problem is when you check it into the new place
10:49:03 <anthony> ... the revision numbering is lost
10:49:41 <anthony> AE: Would be great if we get the test suite published
10:49:57 <anthony> ... is there a ball park date for holding the test fest
10:52:05 <anthony> ED: Ball park date would be after SVG Open?
10:52:17 <anthony> CL: Yeah, after it
10:52:27 <anthony> ... would the test fest be a face-to-face meeting?
10:52:35 <anthony> ED: I guess it would be useful
10:52:43 <anthony> CL: September was mentioned
10:53:04 <anthony> ... but I have a management meeting 15 - 17 Sep
10:53:14 <anthony> ... something around that is ok
10:53:29 <anthony> ... either the beginning or end is fine with me
10:53:42 <anthony> DS: We are having a F2F before SVG Open
10:53:47 <anthony> ... what are we doing there?
10:54:05 <anthony> ED: We could have some time allocated for it
10:54:17 <anthony> AE: We'd want this test fest to be the final one
10:54:21 <anthony> ... so it could take some time
10:54:37 <anthony> ... so at the F2F we should focus on getting the test suite
10:54:39 <anthony> ... done
10:54:51 <anthony> ED: So it sounds like we should work on tests
10:54:56 <anthony> ... to get the suite done
10:55:04 <anthony> ... at the F2F
10:55:55 <anthony> AE: If we release a Beta 2 some time soon
10:56:08 <anthony> ... we could work on the test suite
10:56:18 <anthony> CL: Would be good to announce a Beta 3 at the F2F
10:56:50 <anthony> ... I'm think the 20th - 24th Oct is the TP
10:57:06 <anthony> ... one possibility is to organise the test fest near that
10:57:14 <anthony> ... not sure if that is too far in advance
10:57:32 <anthony> AG: Not a bad idea
10:57:48 <anthony> CL: We'd be talking about the week around the 13th Oct
10:57:53 <anthony> ... how long will we need?
10:57:59 <anthony> ED: 4 - 5 days probably
10:58:17 <anthony> AE: Are people good for going 2 weeks at a time
10:58:34 <anthony> DS: I think being worn out before the TP might not be a good idea
10:58:43 <anthony> CL: If we did the test fest Mon - Thur
10:58:54 <anthony> ... it would give us 3 days before TPac
10:59:52 <anthony> AE: Is the date mid Oct too late for publication of the spec
11:00:11 <anthony> CL: Whether is too late depends on how many pass we have
11:00:16 <anthony> ... at the test fest
11:00:51 <anthony> ... traditionally they produce their implementation reprot
11:00:59 <anthony> s/reprot/report/
11:01:09 <anthony> ... then request to go to PR
11:01:26 <anthony> CL: [Explains process]
11:02:05 <anthony> ... if we were in PR in Dec that's fine with me
11:02:20 <anthony> ... it's just a notice to say we have 6 weeks to go
11:02:29 <anthony> DS: We should really shoot for the end of the year
11:02:41 <anthony> ED: In that case we should go with the end of Sep
11:03:20 <anthony> AE: As CL said we may run the risk of not having 2 implementations for every feature
11:03:34 <anthony> ... that said it would nice to have a report sooner or later
11:04:01 <anthony> ... would be good task implementers where they are up to
11:04:22 <anthony> ... but maybe if a staff person asked it would be good
11:04:56 <anthony> ... so it sounds like Sep is probably the better time
11:05:04 <anthony> ED: Do we want to decide on a location?
11:05:13 <anthony> ... or do we want to discuss it at the next F2F
11:05:21 <anthony> AE: Might be a bit tight at the F2F
11:06:05 <anthony> DS: I'm happy to host or Andrew can you host?
11:06:34 <anthony> AE: I'd be happy to host
11:06:47 <anthony> CL: What about the week of the 29th Sep?
11:07:03 <anthony> DS: Anytime around then is fine with me
11:07:41 <anthony> AE: 29th sounds ok
11:07:52 <anthony> ... we can decide on another call the exact location
11:07:54 <anthony> ED: Sounds ok
11:08:20 <anthony> RESOLUTION: We will hold a test fest on the 29th Sep to the 2nd Oct somewhere in North America
11:08:36 <anthony> CL: We should announce that ASAP
11:08:47 <anthony> ... and say that further details are soon to follow
11:10:03 <anthony> AE: We should have time line for registering it for it
11:11:08 <anthony> ACTION: Emmons to announce that we will he holding a test fest from the 29th Sep to 2nd Oct and that we will provide further details soon
11:11:08 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2080 - Announce that we will he holding a test fest from the 29th Sep to 2nd Oct and that we will provide further details soon [on Andrew Emmons - due 2008-07-10].
11:12:17 <ed_> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/19480/svgF2Fnuremburg2008/
11:12:40 <anthony> Zakim, move to next agendum
11:12:40 <Zakim> agendum 2. "svginhtml" taken up [from ed_]
11:13:37 <ChrisL> zakim, agenda?
11:13:37 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
11:13:38 <Zakim> 2. svginhtml [from ed_]
11:13:38 <Zakim> 3. XHTML access module [from ed_]
11:14:33 <anthony> Topic: SVG Open
11:14:44 <ed_> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Nuremburg_F2F_2008
11:14:45 <anthony> DS: I would like to have something to show at SVG Open to show progress
11:14:53 <anthony> CL: Form is now open
11:15:04 <anthony> ... for registration
11:16:09 <anthony> ED: Do we need to something out for the public list to get people to sign up for it?
11:16:22 <anthony> AE: We should send a reminder to the public working group list
11:16:27 <anthony> ED: Ok I can do that
11:17:07 <anthony> Topic: SVG in HTML
11:17:22 <anthony> ED: I did an update to the proposal
11:17:37 <ed_> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/proposals/svg-html/svg-html-proposal.html
11:17:51 <anthony> ... you can still see the old proposal
11:17:59 <ed_> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/SVG/proposals/svg-html/svg-html-proposal.html
11:19:07 <anthony> AE: Looks like we've taken the approach of what needs to change in HTML5
11:19:07 <ed_> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/SVG/proposals/svg-html/svg-html-proposal.html?rev=1.2&content-type=text/html;%20charset=iso-8859-1
11:20:03 <anthony> ED: It's using the XML parser
11:20:12 <anthony> ... basically it's just a black box
11:20:25 <anthony> ... that says how to handle stuff the HTML parser doesn't understand
11:20:36 <anthony> AE: Should we have a highlevel note for that?
11:20:50 <anthony> CL: It would be good to list the requirements at the top of the proposal
11:21:01 <anthony> ... such as round trip copy and past of SVG
11:21:10 <anthony> ... to and from the document
11:21:36 <anthony> DS: We're not trying to HTML5
11:21:48 <anthony> ED: It would be good if people could make up dates to this
11:22:07 <anthony> ... is this a subset of SVG?
11:22:20 <anthony> ED: No you can paste any SVG fragment
11:22:40 <anthony> ... there are somethings you can't do because HTML doesn't support name spaces
11:22:52 <anthony> DS: So this does not introduce name spaces to HTML5?
11:23:02 <anthony> ED: It does not
11:23:40 <anthony> DS: So if have some output from Inkscape and it has all the extra metadata how does it handle that?
11:23:46 <anthony> ED: That will still work
11:23:51 <anthony> ... it will still be put into the DOM
11:24:02 <anthony> DS: Except it will not be name spaced
11:24:08 <anthony> ED: It will be name spaced
11:24:25 <anthony> AE: It's adding it to the DOM
11:24:35 <anthony> ... but wouldn't the DOM need that anyway for the Xlink serialisation
11:25:13 <anthony> CL: The crucial thing for this is that once you've identified
11:25:20 <anthony> ... root node that you want to put in
11:25:35 <anthony> ... that all the other name spaces within it are preserved
11:25:59 <anthony> ... so we are not trying to put in name spaces into HTML5 but preserve the name spacing
11:26:09 <anthony> ... for content withing the SVG element
11:26:17 <anthony> s/withing/within/
11:26:31 <anthony> ... should have some examples
11:26:40 <anthony> ED: I think this is not a bad start
11:26:44 <anthony> ... but it's not complete
11:29:37 <anthony> DS: So Charles was saying that you could use foreignObject and use a switch with a required feature
11:29:50 <anthony> ED: Problem is malformed content
11:30:29 <anthony> CM: You could put the foreignObject at the end of the SVG
11:30:48 <anthony> ... there might be some other tricky things with Font and TextArea
11:31:28 <anthony> CL: I think it would be useful to document this
11:31:35 <anthony> ... and Doug's fallback idea
11:31:40 <anthony> ... and give pros and cons of both
11:31:55 <anthony> DS: So font shouldn't show up right
11:32:13 <anthony> CM: So if we mandated elsewhere that default style sheets have that on it
11:32:26 <anthony> ... so if these things get parsed and have name spaces set properly
11:32:44 <anthony> ... then you could use that to determine where it came from
11:33:15 <anthony> DS: I would really like to see us present this in a week or two
11:33:31 <anthony> ED: Would be good to flesh some of this out
11:33:48 <anthony> DS: Are you pretty confident with this algorithm?
11:33:53 <anthony> ED: I think it will work
11:34:04 <anthony> ... What's left is to provide examples
11:34:14 <anthony> ... and authoring guidelines
11:36:55 <anthony> DS: How about we try to have this in place by next Thursday?
11:36:59 <anthony> ED: Sounds good
11:37:09 <anthony> ... I guess I can try to fit in some examples
11:37:23 <anthony> ... it's a good idea to keep it in public CVS and work on it there
11:39:40 <anthony> ACTION: Erik to incorporate what we discussed into the the SVG-in-HTML proposal
11:39:40 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2081 - Incorporate what we discussed into the the SVG-in-HTML proposal [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-07-10].
11:40:14 <anthony> Zakim, move to next agendum
11:40:14 <Zakim> agendum 3. "XHTML access module" taken up [from ed_]
11:40:24 <anthony> Topic: XHTML access module
11:40:30 <anthony> ED: Haven't had time to read it
11:40:39 <anthony> CL: I haven't had a careful read though it
11:40:53 <anthony> DS: I'll send in my second review to this list
11:41:16 <ed_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0168.html
11:41:44 <Zakim> -shepazu
11:41:58 <ed_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0153.html
11:42:08 <anthony> Topic: Issue 2004
11:42:13 <heycam> ISSUE-2004?
11:42:13 <trackbot> ISSUE-2004 -- Define SVGMatrix behavior when using float edge cases -- RAISED
11:42:13 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2004
11:42:33 <anthony> ED: Cameron had an action to look at this
11:42:35 <anthony> CM: I did
11:42:43 <anthony> ... the result was that mail
11:43:01 <anthony> ... there is no need for infinity and NAN values
11:43:19 <anthony> ... so we can define that at the top of the chapter
11:43:26 <anthony> ED: I have not issues with your findings
11:43:29 <anthony> ... looks fine to me
11:43:53 <anthony> CM: Not sure on the type of exception that should be thrown
11:44:01 <heycam> http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-svg-minutes.html#item09
11:44:02 <anthony> ... when one of these values is passed in
11:44:21 <anthony> AE: I think at one point there was wording about
11:44:30 <anthony> ... what exceptions was thrown
11:44:37 <anthony> ... I know that wording was in the traits
11:44:43 <anthony> ED: It's in A3.1
11:44:52 <anthony> ... [Reads out part]
11:45:05 <anthony> ... although it doesn't say anything about infinity
11:45:22 <anthony> CM: We could add wording in that said
11:45:51 <heycam> CM: If we could replace that "signalling NaN" text with something that says if an infinity or NaN is passed in as a float, then a certain exception is thrown
11:45:56 <anthony> ED: I would prefer not to add the wording into A3.1
11:46:28 <anthony> ... because it says "attribute property and normalisation"....
11:46:33 <anthony> ... but I guess it's ok
11:46:47 <anthony> ... if you consider a normalisation a call to any method
11:46:48 <ed_> s/attribute property and normalisation/attribute/property normalisation/
11:47:18 <anthony> AG: Result?
11:47:22 <anthony> ... add that wording?
11:47:28 <anthony> ED: Yes we should add that wording
11:48:45 <anthony> CM: What do implementations do at the moment for not supported error?
11:48:58 <anthony> AE: I think that with the trait tests
11:49:06 <anthony> ... we do what the current spec says
11:49:17 <anthony> ... I think it might be non-trivial to change that
11:49:23 <anthony> ... since it's in JSR226
11:49:31 <anthony> ... and that's already in the field
11:50:12 <anthony> CM: So I guess if someone can confirm that in 226
11:50:17 <anthony> AE: Yes I can confirm that
11:50:25 <anthony> CM: In that case we should chose that
11:51:09 <anthony> ... there was something slightly related that I mentioned in the email
11:51:21 <anthony> ... and that was for negative zeros
11:51:40 <ed_> javascript:alert(document.createElementNS("http://www.w3.org/2000/svg", "svg").setCurrentTime(parseFloat("asdasd")))
11:51:46 <anthony> ED: It seems that Opera is doing the not supported error
11:51:57 <anthony> ... so this will give you the not supported error in the console
11:52:13 <anthony> CM: So would you be willing to change the other one
11:52:20 <anthony> ... to type mismatch
11:52:31 <anthony> AE: The type mismatch is specifically dealing with NAN
11:52:36 <anthony> ... it's in the context of
11:52:48 <anthony> ... you're putting in what could be a float value
11:53:12 <anthony> ... but for the one you posted in that is not supported
11:53:38 <anthony> ED: For me the changes in either one of them is very limited
11:53:47 <anthony> ... but I'd prefer if it were similar everywhere
11:54:19 <anthony> ... so do we want to put this text into the spec
11:54:59 <ed_> javascript:alert(document.createElementNS("http://www.w3.org/2000/svg", "svg").setFloatTrait("x",parseFloat("asdasd")))
11:55:00 <anthony> CM: throwing type miss match error for set float trait
11:55:06 <anthony> ... and then other for the other cases
11:56:47 <anthony> ACTION: Cameron to fix exceptions in the specification for setFloat values
11:56:47 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2082 - Fix exceptions in the specification for setFloat values [on Cameron McCormack - due 2008-07-10].
12:01:26 <Zakim> -heycam
12:01:27 <Zakim> -aemmons
12:01:27 <Zakim> -ChrisL
12:01:28 <Zakim> -ed_
12:01:36 <Zakim> -anthony
12:01:37 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()6:30AM has ended
12:01:38 <Zakim> Attendees were aemmons, heycam, anthony, ed_, shepazu, ChrisL
12:02:07 <anthony> Zakim, bye
12:02:07 <Zakim> Zakim has left #svg
12:02:13 <anthony> rrsagent, make minutes
12:02:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-svg-minutes.html anthony