IRC log of svg on 2008-07-03

Timestamps are in UTC.

10:31:59 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #svg
10:31:59 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-svg-irc
10:32:01 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
10:32:01 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #svg
10:32:03 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
10:32:03 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG()6:30AM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago
10:32:04 [trackbot]
Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
10:32:04 [trackbot]
Date: 03 July 2008
10:32:15 [Zakim]
GA_SVGWG()6:30AM has now started
10:32:22 [Zakim]
+??P0
10:32:28 [aemmons]
zakim, ??p0 is me
10:32:28 [Zakim]
+aemmons; got it
10:32:38 [Zakim]
+??P1
10:32:40 [heycam]
Zakim, ??P1 is me
10:32:40 [Zakim]
+heycam; got it
10:32:54 [Zakim]
+??P2
10:33:08 [anthony]
Zakim, ??P2 is me
10:33:08 [Zakim]
+anthony; got it
10:35:30 [ed_]
ed_ has joined #svg
10:36:07 [Zakim]
+??P3
10:36:32 [ed_]
Zakim, ??P3 is me
10:36:32 [Zakim]
+ed_; got it
10:36:58 [ed_]
Zakim, who's here?
10:36:58 [Zakim]
On the phone I see aemmons, heycam, anthony, ed_
10:36:59 [Zakim]
On IRC I see ed_, Zakim, RRSAgent, anthony, aemmons, ed_work, shepazu, heycam, trackbot
10:38:03 [Zakim]
+shadi
10:38:19 [ed_]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0168.html
10:38:21 [ChrisL]
ChrisL has joined #svg
10:38:50 [ed_]
Agenda+ test-fest
10:38:55 [ed_]
Agenda+ svginhtml
10:39:31 [anthony]
Scribe: anthony
10:39:33 [anthony]
Chair: Erik
10:39:41 [anthony]
Regrets: Doug
10:39:58 [Zakim]
+??P5
10:40:21 [shepazu]
??P is me
10:40:22 [ed_]
Agenda+ XHTML access module
10:40:25 [anthony]
s/Doug/None/
10:40:37 [shepazu]
Zakim, ??P is me
10:40:37 [Zakim]
+shepazu; got it
10:42:29 [ChrisL]
zakim, who is here?
10:42:30 [Zakim]
On the phone I see aemmons, heycam, anthony, ed_, shadi, shepazu
10:42:30 [Zakim]
On IRC I see ChrisL, ed_, Zakim, RRSAgent, anthony, aemmons, ed_work, shepazu, heycam, trackbot
10:42:42 [anthony]
Zakim, move to next agendum
10:42:42 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "test-fest" taken up [from ed_]
10:42:48 [shepazu]
Zakim, shadi is ChrisL
10:42:48 [Zakim]
+ChrisL; got it
10:42:53 [ChrisL]
zakim, shadi is ChrisL
10:42:53 [Zakim]
sorry, ChrisL, I do not recognize a party named 'shadi'
10:43:04 [anthony]
AE: I made the request to discuss this
10:43:12 [anthony]
... so we could have a test fest before SVG open
10:43:16 [anthony]
... time is running out for that
10:43:28 [anthony]
... wanted to see what the group thought about a test fest
10:43:37 [anthony]
CL: So I thought we decided not to do it
10:43:48 [anthony]
... because of difficulties with people traveling
10:44:02 [anthony]
AE: Wasn't sure, because on a call you could send someone
10:44:11 [anthony]
CL: Just wondering if it's a bit late to do one
10:44:16 [anthony]
... but I can see value in doing it
10:44:22 [anthony]
AE: It's all a bit connected
10:44:29 [anthony]
... because I thought we'd have the test suite published
10:44:39 [anthony]
... it's probably too late to have travel for sure
10:44:54 [anthony]
... so maybe there's another way of doing it if we are still keen
10:45:04 [anthony]
... even then there may not be time to do that
10:45:13 [anthony]
... because we have to send a request for implementations
10:45:43 [anthony]
CL: We need to give people advanced notice
10:45:53 [anthony]
... in some ways I'd rather we organise something later
10:45:59 [anthony]
... just to give people the notice they need
10:46:08 [anthony]
... first thing is to get the test suite published
10:46:27 [anthony]
AE: We also said there would be a Beta
10:46:31 [anthony]
... with a link with known issues
10:46:41 [anthony]
... the blocking item is simply putting it up
10:47:04 [anthony]
ED: So what's the hold up with the test suite?
10:47:08 [anthony]
... it's not published?
10:47:27 [anthony]
AE: Is it something that only a team or staff contact can do?
10:47:30 [anthony]
CL: Yes it is
10:47:38 [anthony]
... planning to fix that
10:47:45 [anthony]
... once it's in the public repository
10:48:01 [anthony]
... I guess I could ask Sys Team to give access
10:48:20 [anthony]
AE: I guess Doug is busy with a lot of other stuff
10:48:39 [anthony]
... if it was in the public repository
10:48:45 [anthony]
... might be able to be published
10:48:56 [anthony]
CL: Problem is when you check it into the new place
10:49:03 [anthony]
... the revision numbering is lost
10:49:41 [anthony]
AE: Would be great if we get the test suite published
10:49:57 [anthony]
... is there a ball park date for holding the test fest
10:52:05 [anthony]
ED: Ball park date would be after SVG Open?
10:52:17 [anthony]
CL: Yeah, after it
10:52:27 [anthony]
... would the test fest be a face-to-face meeting?
10:52:35 [anthony]
ED: I guess it would be useful
10:52:43 [anthony]
CL: September was mentioned
10:53:04 [anthony]
... but I have a management meeting 15 - 17 Sep
10:53:14 [anthony]
... something around that is ok
10:53:29 [anthony]
... either the beginning or end is fine with me
10:53:42 [anthony]
DS: We are having a F2F before SVG Open
10:53:47 [anthony]
... what are we doing there?
10:54:05 [anthony]
ED: We could have some time allocated for it
10:54:17 [anthony]
AE: We'd want this test fest to be the final one
10:54:21 [anthony]
... so it could take some time
10:54:37 [anthony]
... so at the F2F we should focus on getting the test suite
10:54:39 [anthony]
... done
10:54:51 [anthony]
ED: So it sounds like we should work on tests
10:54:56 [anthony]
... to get the suite done
10:55:04 [anthony]
... at the F2F
10:55:55 [anthony]
AE: If we release a Beta 2 some time soon
10:56:08 [anthony]
... we could work on the test suite
10:56:18 [anthony]
CL: Would be good to announce a Beta 3 at the F2F
10:56:50 [anthony]
... I'm think the 20th - 24th Oct is the TP
10:57:06 [anthony]
... one possibility is to organise the test fest near that
10:57:14 [anthony]
... not sure if that is too far in advance
10:57:32 [anthony]
AG: Not a bad idea
10:57:48 [anthony]
CL: We'd be talking about the week around the 13th Oct
10:57:53 [anthony]
... how long will we need?
10:57:59 [anthony]
ED: 4 - 5 days probably
10:58:17 [anthony]
AE: Are people good for going 2 weeks at a time
10:58:34 [anthony]
DS: I think being worn out before the TP might not be a good idea
10:58:43 [anthony]
CL: If we did the test fest Mon - Thur
10:58:54 [anthony]
... it would give us 3 days before TPac
10:59:52 [anthony]
AE: Is the date mid Oct too late for publication of the spec
11:00:11 [anthony]
CL: Whether is too late depends on how many pass we have
11:00:16 [anthony]
... at the test fest
11:00:51 [anthony]
... traditionally they produce their implementation reprot
11:00:59 [anthony]
s/reprot/report/
11:01:09 [anthony]
... then request to go to PR
11:01:26 [anthony]
CL: [Explains process]
11:02:05 [anthony]
... if we were in PR in Dec that's fine with me
11:02:20 [anthony]
... it's just a notice to say we have 6 weeks to go
11:02:29 [anthony]
DS: We should really shoot for the end of the year
11:02:41 [anthony]
ED: In that case we should go with the end of Sep
11:03:20 [anthony]
AE: As CL said we may run the risk of not having 2 implementations for every feature
11:03:34 [anthony]
... that said it would nice to have a report sooner or later
11:04:01 [anthony]
... would be good task implementers where they are up to
11:04:22 [anthony]
... but maybe if a staff person asked it would be good
11:04:56 [anthony]
... so it sounds like Sep is probably the better time
11:05:04 [anthony]
ED: Do we want to decide on a location?
11:05:13 [anthony]
... or do we want to discuss it at the next F2F
11:05:21 [anthony]
AE: Might be a bit tight at the F2F
11:06:05 [anthony]
DS: I'm happy to host or Andrew can you host?
11:06:34 [anthony]
AE: I'd be happy to host
11:06:47 [anthony]
CL: What about the week of the 29th Sep?
11:07:03 [anthony]
DS: Anytime around then is fine with me
11:07:41 [anthony]
AE: 29th sounds ok
11:07:52 [anthony]
... we can decide on another call the exact location
11:07:54 [anthony]
ED: Sounds ok
11:08:20 [anthony]
RESOLUTION: We will hold a test fest on the 29th Sep to the 2nd Oct somewhere in North America
11:08:36 [anthony]
CL: We should announce that ASAP
11:08:47 [anthony]
... and say that further details are soon to follow
11:10:03 [anthony]
AE: We should have time line for registering it for it
11:11:08 [anthony]
ACTION: Emmons to announce that we will he holding a test fest from the 29th Sep to 2nd Oct and that we will provide further details soon
11:11:08 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2080 - Announce that we will he holding a test fest from the 29th Sep to 2nd Oct and that we will provide further details soon [on Andrew Emmons - due 2008-07-10].
11:12:17 [ed_]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/19480/svgF2Fnuremburg2008/
11:12:40 [anthony]
Zakim, move to next agendum
11:12:40 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "svginhtml" taken up [from ed_]
11:13:37 [ChrisL]
zakim, agenda?
11:13:37 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
11:13:38 [Zakim]
2. svginhtml [from ed_]
11:13:38 [Zakim]
3. XHTML access module [from ed_]
11:14:33 [anthony]
Topic: SVG Open
11:14:44 [ed_]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Nuremburg_F2F_2008
11:14:45 [anthony]
DS: I would like to have something to show at SVG Open to show progress
11:14:53 [anthony]
CL: Form is now open
11:15:04 [anthony]
... for registration
11:16:09 [anthony]
ED: Do we need to something out for the public list to get people to sign up for it?
11:16:22 [anthony]
AE: We should send a reminder to the public working group list
11:16:27 [anthony]
ED: Ok I can do that
11:17:07 [anthony]
Topic: SVG in HTML
11:17:22 [anthony]
ED: I did an update to the proposal
11:17:37 [ed_]
http://dev.w3.org/SVG/proposals/svg-html/svg-html-proposal.html
11:17:51 [anthony]
... you can still see the old proposal
11:17:59 [ed_]
http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/SVG/proposals/svg-html/svg-html-proposal.html
11:19:07 [anthony]
AE: Looks like we've taken the approach of what needs to change in HTML5
11:19:07 [ed_]
http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/SVG/proposals/svg-html/svg-html-proposal.html?rev=1.2&content-type=text/html;%20charset=iso-8859-1
11:20:03 [anthony]
ED: It's using the XML parser
11:20:12 [anthony]
... basically it's just a black box
11:20:25 [anthony]
... that says how to handle stuff the HTML parser doesn't understand
11:20:36 [anthony]
AE: Should we have a highlevel note for that?
11:20:50 [anthony]
CL: It would be good to list the requirements at the top of the proposal
11:21:01 [anthony]
... such as round trip copy and past of SVG
11:21:10 [anthony]
... to and from the document
11:21:36 [anthony]
DS: We're not trying to HTML5
11:21:48 [anthony]
ED: It would be good if people could make up dates to this
11:22:03 [anthony]
DS: Can you give us a highlevel overview of this
11:22:07 [anthony]
... is this a subset of SVG?
11:22:20 [anthony]
ED: No you can paste any SVG fragment
11:22:40 [anthony]
... there are somethings you can't do because HTML doesn't support name spaces
11:22:52 [anthony]
DS: So this does not introduce name spaces to HTML5?
11:23:02 [anthony]
ED: It does not
11:23:40 [anthony]
DS: So if have some output from Inkscape and it has all the extra metadata how does it handle that?
11:23:46 [anthony]
ED: That will still work
11:23:51 [anthony]
... it will still be put into the DOM
11:24:02 [anthony]
DS: Except it will not be name spaced
11:24:08 [anthony]
ED: It will be name spaced
11:24:25 [anthony]
AE: It's adding it to the DOM
11:24:35 [anthony]
... but wouldn't the DOM need that anyway for the Xlink serialisation
11:25:13 [anthony]
CL: The crucial thing for this is that once you've identified
11:25:20 [anthony]
... root node that you want to put in
11:25:35 [anthony]
... that all the other name spaces within it are preserved
11:25:59 [anthony]
... so we are not trying to put in name spaces into HTML5 but preserve the name spacing
11:26:09 [anthony]
... for content withing the SVG element
11:26:17 [anthony]
s/withing/within/
11:26:31 [anthony]
... should have some examples
11:26:40 [anthony]
ED: I think this is not a bad start
11:26:44 [anthony]
... but it's not complete
11:29:37 [anthony]
DS: So Charles was saying that you could use foreignObject and use a switch with a required feature
11:29:50 [anthony]
ED: Problem is malformed content
11:30:29 [anthony]
CM: You could put the foreignObject at the end of the SVG
11:30:48 [anthony]
... there might be some other tricky things with Font and TextArea
11:31:28 [anthony]
CL: I think it would be useful to document this
11:31:35 [anthony]
... and Doug's fallback idea
11:31:40 [anthony]
... and give pros and cons of both
11:31:55 [anthony]
DS: So font shouldn't show up right
11:32:13 [anthony]
CM: So if we mandated elsewhere that default style sheets have that on it
11:32:26 [anthony]
... so if these things get parsed and have name spaces set properly
11:32:44 [anthony]
... then you could use that to determine where it came from
11:33:15 [anthony]
DS: I would really like to see us present this in a week or two
11:33:31 [anthony]
ED: Would be good to flesh some of this out
11:33:48 [anthony]
DS: Are you pretty confident with this algorithm?
11:33:53 [anthony]
ED: I think it will work
11:34:04 [anthony]
... What's left is to provide examples
11:34:14 [anthony]
... and authoring guidelines
11:36:55 [anthony]
DS: How about we try to have this in place by next Thursday?
11:36:59 [anthony]
ED: Sounds good
11:37:09 [anthony]
... I guess I can try to fit in some examples
11:37:23 [anthony]
... it's a good idea to keep it in public CVS and work on it there
11:39:40 [anthony]
ACTION: Erik to incorporate what we discussed into the the SVG-in-HTML proposal
11:39:40 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2081 - Incorporate what we discussed into the the SVG-in-HTML proposal [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-07-10].
11:40:14 [anthony]
Zakim, move to next agendum
11:40:14 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "XHTML access module" taken up [from ed_]
11:40:24 [anthony]
Topic: XHTML access module
11:40:30 [anthony]
ED: Haven't had time to read it
11:40:39 [anthony]
CL: I haven't had a careful read though it
11:40:53 [anthony]
DS: I'll send in my second review to this list
11:41:16 [ed_]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0168.html
11:41:44 [Zakim]
-shepazu
11:41:58 [ed_]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0153.html
11:42:08 [anthony]
Topic: Issue 2004
11:42:13 [heycam]
ISSUE-2004?
11:42:13 [trackbot]
ISSUE-2004 -- Define SVGMatrix behavior when using float edge cases -- RAISED
11:42:13 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2004
11:42:33 [anthony]
ED: Cameron had an action to look at this
11:42:35 [anthony]
CM: I did
11:42:43 [anthony]
... the result was that mail
11:43:01 [anthony]
... there is no need for infinity and NAN values
11:43:19 [anthony]
... so we can define that at the top of the chapter
11:43:26 [anthony]
ED: I have not issues with your findings
11:43:29 [anthony]
... looks fine to me
11:43:53 [anthony]
CM: Not sure on the type of exception that should be thrown
11:44:01 [heycam]
http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-svg-minutes.html#item09
11:44:02 [anthony]
... when one of these values is passed in
11:44:21 [anthony]
AE: I think at one point there was wording about
11:44:30 [anthony]
... what exceptions was thrown
11:44:37 [anthony]
... I know that wording was in the traits
11:44:43 [anthony]
ED: It's in A3.1
11:44:52 [anthony]
... [Reads out part]
11:45:05 [anthony]
... although it doesn't say anything about infinity
11:45:22 [anthony]
CM: We could add wording in that said
11:45:51 [heycam]
CM: If we could replace that "signalling NaN" text with something that says if an infinity or NaN is passed in as a float, then a certain exception is thrown
11:45:56 [anthony]
ED: I would prefer not to add the wording into A3.1
11:46:28 [anthony]
... because it says "attribute property and normalisation"....
11:46:33 [anthony]
... but I guess it's ok
11:46:47 [anthony]
... if you consider a normalisation a call to any method
11:46:48 [ed_]
s/attribute property and normalisation/attribute/property normalisation/
11:47:18 [anthony]
AG: Result?
11:47:22 [anthony]
... add that wording?
11:47:28 [anthony]
ED: Yes we should add that wording
11:48:45 [anthony]
CM: What do implementations do at the moment for not supported error?
11:48:58 [anthony]
AE: I think that with the trait tests
11:49:06 [anthony]
... we do what the current spec says
11:49:17 [anthony]
... I think it might be non-trivial to change that
11:49:23 [anthony]
... since it's in JSR226
11:49:31 [anthony]
... and that's already in the field
11:50:12 [anthony]
CM: So I guess if someone can confirm that in 226
11:50:17 [anthony]
AE: Yes I can confirm that
11:50:25 [anthony]
CM: In that case we should chose that
11:51:09 [anthony]
... there was something slightly related that I mentioned in the email
11:51:21 [anthony]
... and that was for negative zeros
11:51:40 [ed_]
javascript:alert(document.createElementNS("http://www.w3.org/2000/svg", "svg").setCurrentTime(parseFloat("asdasd")))
11:51:46 [anthony]
ED: It seems that Opera is doing the not supported error
11:51:57 [anthony]
... so this will give you the not supported error in the console
11:52:13 [anthony]
CM: So would you be willing to change the other one
11:52:20 [anthony]
... to type mismatch
11:52:31 [anthony]
AE: The type mismatch is specifically dealing with NAN
11:52:36 [anthony]
... it's in the context of
11:52:48 [anthony]
... you're putting in what could be a float value
11:53:12 [anthony]
... but for the one you posted in that is not supported
11:53:38 [anthony]
ED: For me the changes in either one of them is very limited
11:53:47 [anthony]
... but I'd prefer if it were similar everywhere
11:54:19 [anthony]
... so do we want to put this text into the spec
11:54:59 [ed_]
javascript:alert(document.createElementNS("http://www.w3.org/2000/svg", "svg").setFloatTrait("x",parseFloat("asdasd")))
11:55:00 [anthony]
CM: throwing type miss match error for set float trait
11:55:06 [anthony]
... and then other for the other cases
11:56:47 [anthony]
ACTION: Cameron to fix exceptions in the specification for setFloat values
11:56:47 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2082 - Fix exceptions in the specification for setFloat values [on Cameron McCormack - due 2008-07-10].
12:01:26 [Zakim]
-heycam
12:01:27 [Zakim]
-aemmons
12:01:27 [Zakim]
-ChrisL
12:01:28 [Zakim]
-ed_
12:01:36 [Zakim]
-anthony
12:01:37 [Zakim]
GA_SVGWG()6:30AM has ended
12:01:38 [Zakim]
Attendees were aemmons, heycam, anthony, ed_, shepazu, ChrisL
12:02:07 [anthony]
Zakim, bye
12:02:07 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #svg
12:02:13 [anthony]
rrsagent, make minutes
12:02:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-svg-minutes.html anthony