IRC log of rdfa on 2008-07-03

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:46:09 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
14:46:09 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:47:39 [msporny]
zakim, this is SW_SWD(RDFa)
14:47:39 [Zakim]
msporny, I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be SW_SWD(RDFa)".
14:47:45 [msporny]
zakim, this will be SW_SWD(RDFa)
14:47:45 [Zakim]
ok, msporny; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 13 minutes
14:48:45 [msporny]
Meeting: RDF in XHTML TaskForce
14:48:52 [msporny]
Chair: Ben
14:49:00 [msporny]
Scribe: Manu Sporny
14:49:03 [msporny]
Chair: Ben Adida
14:49:15 [msporny]
rrsagent, make log public
14:49:21 [msporny]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:49:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate msporny
14:49:54 [msporny]
ScribeNick: msporny
14:51:04 [msporny]
14:51:36 [msporny]
14:51:50 [msporny]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:51:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate msporny
14:54:18 [mhausenblas]
mhausenblas has joined #rdfa
14:54:29 [mhausenblas]
heya everyone
14:57:02 [msporny]
14:57:03 [msporny]
14:57:55 [msporny]
14:57:55 [msporny]
14:57:55 [msporny]
14:57:55 [msporny]
14:57:57 [msporny]
14:59:20 [mhausenblas]
ta Manu :)
14:59:41 [Zakim]
SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started
14:59:42 [Zakim]
14:59:50 [msporny]
zakim, I am ??p13
14:59:50 [Zakim]
+msporny; got it
15:00:06 [Zakim]
15:00:08 [Zakim]
15:00:08 [Zakim]
15:00:17 [Zakim]
15:00:24 [ShaneM]
zakim, ??p22 is ShaneM
15:00:24 [Zakim]
+ShaneM; got it
15:00:44 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
15:00:44 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:00:46 [Zakim]
15:01:40 [msporny]
Present: Manu_Sporny, Michael_Hausenblas, Steven_Pemberton, Shane_McCarron
15:03:33 [Ralph]
Ralph has joined #rdfa
15:03:35 [mhausenblas]
I'd like to shortly talk about the Primer re 'link to full example'
15:03:44 [msporny]
Present+ Ralph_Swick
15:03:57 [msporny]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:03:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate msporny
15:04:19 [mhausenblas]
-> Full example from RDFa Primer
15:05:07 [Zakim]
15:05:12 [benadida]
benadida has joined #rdfa
15:05:41 [Zakim]
15:06:00 [mhausenblas]
Ben, just pointed out the Primer full example stuff
15:06:08 [markbirbeck]
I've just emailed my apologies. :(
15:06:12 [markbirbeck]
Will stay on IRC, though.
15:06:21 [markbirbeck]
Happy birthday Michael! :)
15:06:27 [mhausenblas]
15:06:33 [msporny]
Regrets: Mark_Birbeck
15:07:12 [mhausenblas]
15:07:33 [msporny]
Topic: Action Items
15:08:20 [msporny]
[NEW] ACTION: Manu check edit permissions on [recorded in]
15:08:31 [Ralph]
15:08:37 [msporny]
15:08:55 [Ralph]
Manu: the wiki doesn't allow you to edit until you verify your email address
15:09:06 [msporny]
ShaneM: That's correct.
15:09:39 [msporny]
ACTION: Manu write haudio examples for wiki [recorded in]
15:09:42 [msporny]
15:10:00 [msporny]
Manu: This is continuing
15:10:03 [msporny]
ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot [recorded in]
15:10:13 [msporny]
15:10:34 [msporny]
benadida: You should coordinate with Digg folks to see if you can come up with a vocab term for community rating.
15:10:51 [msporny]
benadida: if they agree on that, then we can write a cool searchmonkey addition based on that.
15:11:02 [mhausenblas]
15:11:03 [msporny]
benadida: Either find the right one or pick a new one.
15:11:18 [msporny]
Michael: Yes, one kinda exists... check first.
15:11:41 [Steven]
15:12:04 [msporny]
Steven: wanted to talk about vocabularies for a bit.
15:12:14 [msporny]
Steven: got a comment about vevent blog post I did.
15:12:25 [msporny]
Michael: It was Yves, right?
15:12:42 [msporny]
Steven: yes, my question is I'm assuming that we want some standard vocabularies.
15:13:04 [msporny]
Steven: Using location for a TV channel?
15:13:18 [msporny]
Steven: So VCARD location for a TV program should be in the LOCATION field?
15:13:46 [msporny]
ShaneM: What's the datatype for location?
15:13:52 [msporny]
Steven: It's string.
15:13:59 [msporny]
ShaneM: If it's a string, do whatever you want, right?
15:14:06 [msporny]
Ralph: don't know if that's best.
15:14:23 [msporny]
Steven: You don't quite have the right semantics if you go that route.
15:15:11 [Ralph]
Manu: one option that has been used is to permit either a string or a typed value
15:15:36 [Ralph]
s/ don't know if that's best./ think that represents the designer's intent
15:15:49 [Ralph]
s/ think/don't think/
15:15:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Ralph
15:15:59 [msporny]
Michael: I know Yves, we could talk with him a bit?
15:16:10 [msporny]
benadida: It would be good to continue discussion with Yves.
15:16:34 [msporny]
benadida: These discussions tend to be very long, because we're talking about vocabularies.
15:16:56 [ShaneM]
q+ to discuss vocabulary evolution
15:17:21 [Ralph]
Manu: people aren't necessarily going to understand the nuances of the semantics and will simply put in whatever strings they feel fit
15:17:32 [mhausenblas]
15:17:37 [Ralph]
... requiring specific data types will make the vocabular less accessible
15:17:48 [Ralph]
... microformats try to make things easiest to use
15:18:11 [Ralph]
... strings have no deeper interpretation; you are permitted to put whatever you want in a string
15:18:12 [msporny]
benadida: The right approach would be to have experts figure it out.
15:18:46 [msporny]
ShaneM: I disagree a bit - we don't have to figure this stuff out.
15:18:50 [mhausenblas]
15:19:00 [msporny]
benadida: People are still going to look to us to write up vocabularies.
15:19:13 [msporny]
benadida: I agree in principle, but we have to bootstrap this somehow.
15:19:39 [msporny]
15:19:48 [mhausenblas]
ack ShaneM
15:19:48 [Zakim]
ShaneM, you wanted to discuss vocabulary evolution
15:20:25 [msporny]
ShaneM: how does ontology discovery works?
15:20:44 [msporny]
benadida: Michael is the mechanical turk behind ontology discovery.
15:21:02 [mhausenblas]
ack me
15:21:25 [msporny]
Michael: I do agree with Shane, we have to focus on what we're doing - RDFa, not vocabularies.
15:21:41 [msporny]
Michael: If you have further information, talk to the vocab authors.
15:21:58 [msporny]
Michael: we have to let people understand that there are certain contraints.
15:22:23 [mhausenblas]
ack msporny
15:23:05 [Ralph]
Manu: these questions are general; "what do we mean by 'location'" is a question that's not specific to just one vocabulary
15:23:28 [Ralph]
... to get specific semantics, give people the option to use multiple datatypes
15:23:41 [Ralph]
... the microformats community has dealt with this mostly by ignoring it
15:25:36 [msporny]
ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in]
15:25:39 [msporny]
15:26:01 [Ralph]
15:26:01 [msporny]
ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in]
15:26:01 [Ralph]
Manu: next can think about some javascript tools to generate the markup for some of these
15:26:01 [Ralph]
... would be nice to have a unified architecture to create these wizards
15:26:01 [Ralph]
... is there something already in existence we could use for this?
15:26:02 [Ralph]
15:26:08 [Ralph]
15:26:19 [msporny]
15:26:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Ralph
15:27:14 [msporny]
ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in]
15:27:18 [msporny]
15:27:27 [msporny]
ACTION: Shane write geolocation examples for wiki [recorded in]
15:28:28 [ShaneM]
15:29:53 [mhausenblas]
Michael: deployment is the 'only' important thing, e.g. in
15:31:52 [Ralph]
-> "Geospatial Vocabulary" (W3C Incubator Group Report)
15:32:35 [Ralph]
-> "Geospatial Ontologies" W3C Incubator Group Report 23 October 2007
15:32:46 [msporny]
ShaneM: The vocab isn't defined very well.
15:32:56 [msporny]
Michael: People will look at the examples not the vocabulary.
15:33:10 [msporny]
ShaneM: That's fine.
15:33:29 [msporny]
ShaneM: What about URIs that represent the thing and URIs that represent the web page.
15:34:01 [msporny]
ShaneM: I don't like this distinction - could Steven/Ralph go into the wiki and fix it.
15:34:25 [msporny]
Michael: It's perfectly right! It's compliant with the linked data principles.
15:34:34 [msporny]
benadida: We will have to have this discussion at greater length later on.
15:35:26 [mhausenblas]
15:35:35 [msporny]
Michael: There is a page on ESW - if we want to discuss that there, it would be good.
15:35:40 [msporny]
15:35:47 [msporny]
ACTION: Steven write vevent examples for wiki [recorded in]
15:35:49 [msporny]
15:36:25 [msporny]
ACTION: Steven to migrate VEVENT examples to wiki
15:36:34 [msporny]
ACTION: Ben followup with Fabien on getting his RDFa GRDDL transform transferred to W3C [recorded in]
15:36:52 [msporny]
15:37:40 [msporny]
ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in]
15:39:08 [msporny]
15:39:23 [msporny]
Topic: State of CR, Implementations, Review of Process.
15:39:33 [Steven]
CURIEs are going to CR soon too
15:39:42 [msporny]
benadida: CR period ends on July 18th
15:40:01 [msporny]
benadida: At that point we should have an implementation report with a couple of implementations that are thoroughly documented.
15:40:10 [mhausenblas]
15:40:15 [msporny]
Michael: We have 3 that are fully compliant.
15:40:24 [msporny]
Michael: err, 2 that are fully compliant.
15:40:33 [msporny]
Michael: Shark is also fully compliant.
15:40:51 [msporny]
Ralph: That's great that they have another implementation that's done in CR.
15:41:06 [msporny]
Michael: It would be good to have a fully compliant PHP implementation.
15:41:24 [msporny]
ACTION: Shane to write home page for SPREAD.
15:41:46 [msporny]
benadida: How do we integrate Javascript parsers.
15:42:10 [msporny]
benadida: Do the test harnesses need to be official? Or do we just need to report on them?
15:42:18 [msporny]
Ralph: I'd like to talk about hosting test harness.
15:42:23 [msporny]
benadida: Let's do that right now.
15:42:33 [msporny]
Ralph: I had suggested to move test harness to W3C.
15:42:42 [msporny]
Ralph: Everyone seemed to be in agreement.
15:42:54 [msporny]
Ralph: It's not a requirement.
15:43:10 [msporny]
Ralph: Since this is Working Group output, we should archive it.
15:43:31 [msporny]
Ralph: We didn't get it moved over in time, Manu sent the harness to me, made an attempt to install it.
15:43:51 [msporny]
Ralph: The question was presented to me as to where it should reside and for how long?
15:44:04 [msporny]
Ralph: How long is the test harness useful to the community?
15:44:36 [msporny]
Ralph: I said a couple of years...I asked Manu if he has any issues hosting it.
15:44:56 [msporny]
Ralph: The two questions are: Does the group have any strong preference for where it's hosted?
15:45:06 [msporny]
Ralph: Do we think it does need to be hosted for a number of years?
15:45:43 [msporny]
Michael: The online version could run there, and a version to download.
15:45:48 [msporny]
Manu: Yep, no problem hosting.
15:46:16 [Ralph]
Manu: we have no problem continuing to host the harness
15:46:26 [Ralph]
... also willing to check it in to the W3C CVS repository
15:46:42 [Ralph]
... already available for download
15:47:22 [msporny]
ShaneM: Easier to maintain if it's kept at Digital Bazaar.
15:47:29 [msporny]
benadida: Could we proxy it?
15:47:58 [msporny]
Ralph: We'd rather not proxy to non W3C host.
15:48:16 [msporny]
benadida: Okay, are you willing to keep hosting it, Manu?
15:48:18 [msporny]
Manu: Yes.
15:48:32 [msporny]
Michael: The only thing I need are the EARL reports.
15:49:43 [msporny]
Manu: Elias wanted EARL report generation to be cleaned up.
15:50:08 [msporny]
benadida: About the process - is all we need the implementation report?
15:50:20 [msporny]
Ralph: We have to respond to all comments and issues.
15:50:36 [msporny]
Ralph: The implementation report is the main thing we need.
15:50:51 [msporny]
Ralph: It doesn't need to be exhaustive, we just have to show that there are 2 implementations of everything.
15:51:11 [msporny]
Michael: I will be gone at 14th July.
15:51:43 [msporny]
benadida: I'd like to make sure that we include Javascript parsers in final report.
15:51:57 [msporny]
Ralph: It would be good to document as many as we can - although, it's not essential.
15:52:04 [msporny]
Michael: I'm back on the 25th of July.
15:52:27 [msporny]
Ralph: if we were to publish PR on Aug 1st, we need to give them 8 weeks to respond.
15:52:53 [msporny]
Ralph: Publishing the PR any time in august would push us back to september.
15:53:07 [msporny]
benadida: Even if we did it on July 21st, it would still push us back that far right?
15:53:15 [msporny]
Michael: Well, if I'm not here, the XSLT is online.
15:53:40 [msporny]
benadida: We don't need to rush you back from vacation - let's take a look at what we have on July 18th and aim for August 1st for PR request.
15:54:08 [msporny]
benadida: The primer is a note, but people seem to be interested in validation. I feel like adding tweaks on how to validate to the Primer.
15:54:14 [msporny]
ShaneM: You can do that at any time.
15:54:22 [msporny]
Steven: +1
15:54:27 [mhausenblas]
re validation see
15:54:42 [msporny]
benadida: What about syntax/editorial issues? Should we make that coincide with end of CR?
15:55:00 [msporny]
Ralph: We need to make editorial corrections at PR
15:55:05 [msporny]
benadida: Then we should modify editors draft.
15:55:14 [msporny]
Ralph: Yes, but make sure any change made is editorial.
15:55:38 [msporny]
benadida: Alans comment is the only non-editorial, but we will only make editorial changes.
15:55:54 [msporny]
benadida: I think we know what we have to do for CR.
15:56:01 [benadida]
ACTION: follow up with Elias on JavaScript test harness + EARL
15:56:08 [benadida]
s/follow up/Ben to follow up/
15:56:26 [msporny]
yay :)
15:56:32 [msporny]
Topic: RDFa Tools & Examples
15:56:51 [msporny]
benadida: I think there are opportunities to help people make sense of RDFa via little tools.
15:57:01 [msporny]
benadida: What are the big needs that we see as far as tools are concerned.
15:57:27 [benadida]
Manu: working on Fuzzbot for FF2 and FF3
15:57:36 [benadida]
... working on slashdot
15:57:41 [benadida]
... finalizing hAudio
15:59:06 [mhausenblas]
Michael: working on image/flickr stuff, see e.g.
15:59:45 [msporny]
benadida: There's a chance to talk Songbird folks into using RDFa?
15:59:51 [msporny]
benadida: It would work well with Creative Commons.
16:01:46 [msporny]
benadida: I can talk to Songbird folks - let's coordinate and chat with them.
16:01:53 [msporny]
Manu: That would be great.
16:02:06 [msporny]
Michael: Are you still in contact with Flickr guys?
16:02:14 [msporny]
Michael: What they have for RDFa is wierd...
16:02:29 [msporny]
benadida: I'm working my way to them... they're a good candidate for RDFa.
16:02:40 [msporny]
benadida: I'll keep pushing towards them.
16:02:58 [msporny]
Michael: They do really wierd things...
16:03:10 [msporny]
benadida: I know, they're playing around with it now - need a little guidance... see what I can do.
16:03:20 [msporny]
benadida: One more thing
16:03:34 [msporny]
benadida: A lot of people are wondering what they get now with RDFa.
16:03:42 [msporny]
benadida: Right now, we can start pitching Search Monkey.
16:04:14 [msporny]
benadida: The idea of separation of concern... they could be both the producer and consumer of site data.
16:04:30 [msporny]
benadida: one person can write up RDFa, the Javascript developers can write stuff to consume RDFa.
16:04:38 [msporny]
benadida: That approach has been successful with some people.
16:04:48 [msporny]
Steven: that's a good argument, separate meaning from function.
16:05:05 [msporny]
benadida: I'll try to find some time to work on our stuff internally... to build something with that architecture in mind.
16:05:14 [msporny]
benadida: any other thoughts?
16:05:31 [msporny]
Michael: There is a paper I presented up there - it's important to have lots of RDFa widgets.
16:06:05 [msporny]
Michael: the stuff in that paper isn't publicly available, but it's up there.
16:06:18 [msporny]
Michael: we should highlight tools - no need to write RDFa at the low level.
16:06:36 [msporny]
benadida: This is great, exactly what I'm getting at.
16:06:56 [msporny]
Micheal: It's functional...
16:07:06 [msporny]
benadida: Anything else?
16:07:15 [msporny]
benadida: Keep this stuff going - more implementations, more tools.
16:07:31 [mhausenblas]
16:07:43 [msporny]
Michael: Comment on this page if you can.
16:07:58 [msporny]
benadida: This gives us the opportunity to pitch RDFa to semantic web crowd.
16:08:14 [msporny]
Steven: Don't forget about Raptor.
16:08:30 [msporny]
ShaneM: small group inside Google uses Raptor.
16:08:44 [msporny]
Steven: We need to think about how a page should be treated as RDFa.
16:09:22 [msporny]
benadida: okay, thanks everybody.
16:09:31 [msporny]
Ralph: I'm not available next week.
16:09:39 [msporny]
benadida: Can we do the 10th?
16:09:48 [msporny]
Steven: yes.
16:09:48 [Ralph]
Ralph: regrets for next week
16:09:52 [msporny]
Michael: yes
16:09:54 [msporny]
Manu: yes
16:10:02 [Zakim]
16:10:05 [Zakim]
16:10:07 [Zakim]
16:10:08 [Zakim]
16:10:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Ralph
16:10:45 [msporny]
Happy birthday again Micheal - don't forget to celebrate! :)
16:10:58 [msporny]
16:11:05 [mhausenblas]
16:11:16 [mhausenblas]
btw, we still have that bet running
16:11:17 [Zakim]
16:11:21 [Zakim]
16:11:22 [Zakim]
SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
16:11:23 [Zakim]
Attendees were msporny, Michael_Hausenblas, ShaneM, Steven, Ben_Adida, Ralph
16:11:36 [mhausenblas]
what will be ready earlier RDFa REC or Michael's PhD
16:11:39 [Ralph]
zakim, bye
16:11:39 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #rdfa
16:11:45 [msporny]
16:11:46 [mhausenblas]
still open :)
16:11:48 [Ralph]
Michael :)
16:12:00 [Ralph]
but you should still celebrate your birthday first
16:12:13 [mhausenblas]
BUT, now the second reader has my PhD and expecting to have my defense in October :)
16:12:24 [mhausenblas]
right, Ralph, will do ;)
16:12:51 [mhausenblas]
so, it will be a *very* exciting October anyway :)
16:13:05 [mhausenblas]
see ya all !
16:13:06 [mhausenblas]
17:03:41 [Ralph]
rrsagent, bye
17:03:41 [RRSAgent]
I see 12 open action items saved in :
17:03:41 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Manu write haudio examples for wiki [recorded in] [1]
17:03:41 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
17:03:41 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot [recorded in] [2]
17:03:41 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
17:03:41 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in] [3]
17:03:41 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
17:03:41 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in] [4]
17:03:41 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
17:03:41 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in] [5]
17:03:41 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
17:03:41 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Shane write geolocation examples for wiki [recorded in] [6]
17:03:41 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
17:03:41 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Steven write vevent examples for wiki [recorded in] [7]
17:03:41 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
17:03:41 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Steven to migrate VEVENT examples to wiki [8]
17:03:41 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
17:03:41 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben followup with Fabien on getting his RDFa GRDDL transform transferred to W3C [recorded in] [9]
17:03:41 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
17:03:41 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in] [10]
17:03:41 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
17:03:41 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Shane to write home page for SPREAD. [11]
17:03:41 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
17:03:41 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: follow up with Elias on JavaScript test harness + EARL [12]
17:03:41 [RRSAgent]
recorded in