14:46:09 RRSAgent has joined #rdfa 14:46:09 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-irc 14:47:39 zakim, this is SW_SWD(RDFa) 14:47:39 msporny, I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be SW_SWD(RDFa)". 14:47:45 zakim, this will be SW_SWD(RDFa) 14:47:45 ok, msporny; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 13 minutes 14:48:45 Meeting: RDF in XHTML TaskForce 14:48:52 Chair: Ben 14:49:00 Scribe: Manu Sporny 14:49:03 Chair: Ben Adida 14:49:15 rrsagent, make log public 14:49:21 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:49:21 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html msporny 14:49:54 ScribeNick: msporny 14:51:04 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Jul/0000.html 14:51:36 previous: http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html 14:51:50 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:51:50 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html msporny 14:54:18 mhausenblas has joined #rdfa 14:54:29 heya everyone 14:57:02 HAPPY BIRTHDAY! 14:57:03 :) 14:57:55 ,,,,, 14:57:55 _|||||_ 14:57:55 {~*~*~*~} 14:57:55 __{*~*~*~*}__ 14:57:57 `-------------` 14:59:20 ta Manu :) 14:59:41 SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started 14:59:42 +??P13 14:59:50 zakim, I am ??p13 14:59:50 +msporny; got it 15:00:06 +??P22 15:00:08 -??P22 15:00:08 +??P22 15:00:17 +Michael_Hausenblas 15:00:24 zakim, ??p22 is ShaneM 15:00:24 +ShaneM; got it 15:00:44 zakim, dial steven-617 15:00:44 ok, Steven; the call is being made 15:00:46 +Steven 15:01:40 Present: Manu_Sporny, Michael_Hausenblas, Steven_Pemberton, Shane_McCarron 15:03:33 Ralph has joined #rdfa 15:03:35 I'd like to shortly talk about the Primer re 'link to full example' 15:03:44 Present+ Ralph_Swick 15:03:57 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:03:57 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html msporny 15:04:19 -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/primer/alice-example.html Full example from RDFa Primer 15:05:07 +Ben_Adida 15:05:12 benadida has joined #rdfa 15:05:41 +Ralph 15:06:00 Ben, just pointed out the Primer full example stuff 15:06:08 I've just emailed my apologies. :( 15:06:12 Will stay on IRC, though. 15:06:21 Happy birthday Michael! :) 15:06:27 http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/primer/alice-example.html 15:06:33 Regrets: Mark_Birbeck 15:07:12 manu++ 15:07:33 Topic: Action Items 15:08:20 [NEW] ACTION: Manu check edit permissions on rdfa.info/wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action10] 15:08:31 s/NEW/DONE 15:08:37 -- DONE 15:08:55 Manu: the wiki doesn't allow you to edit until you verify your email address 15:09:06 ShaneM: That's correct. 15:09:39 ACTION: Manu write haudio examples for wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action06] 15:09:42 -- CONTINUES 15:10:00 Manu: This is continuing 15:10:03 ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action03] 15:10:13 -- CONTINUES 15:10:34 benadida: You should coordinate with Digg folks to see if you can come up with a vocab term for community rating. 15:10:51 benadida: if they agree on that, then we can write a cool searchmonkey addition based on that. 15:11:02 -> http://danja.talis.com/xmlns/rev_2007-11-09/index.html 15:11:03 benadida: Either find the right one or pick a new one. 15:11:18 Michael: Yes, one kinda exists... check talis.com first. 15:11:41 q+ 15:12:04 Steven: wanted to talk about vocabularies for a bit. 15:12:14 Steven: got a comment about vevent blog post I did. 15:12:25 Michael: It was Yves, right? 15:12:42 Steven: yes, my question is I'm assuming that we want some standard vocabularies. 15:13:04 Steven: Using location for a TV channel? 15:13:18 Steven: So VCARD location for a TV program should be in the LOCATION field? 15:13:46 ShaneM: What's the datatype for location? 15:13:52 Steven: It's string. 15:13:59 ShaneM: If it's a string, do whatever you want, right? 15:14:06 Ralph: don't know if that's best. 15:14:23 Steven: You don't quite have the right semantics if you go that route. 15:15:11 Manu: one option that has been used is to permit either a string or a typed value 15:15:36 s/ don't know if that's best./ think that represents the designer's intent 15:15:49 s/ think/don't think/ 15:15:55 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph 15:15:59 Michael: I know Yves, we could talk with him a bit? 15:16:10 benadida: It would be good to continue discussion with Yves. 15:16:34 benadida: These discussions tend to be very long, because we're talking about vocabularies. 15:16:56 q+ to discuss vocabulary evolution 15:17:21 Manu: people aren't necessarily going to understand the nuances of the semantics and will simply put in whatever strings they feel fit 15:17:32 q+ 15:17:37 ... requiring specific data types will make the vocabular less accessible 15:17:48 ... microformats try to make things easiest to use 15:18:11 ... strings have no deeper interpretation; you are permitted to put whatever you want in a string 15:18:12 benadida: The right approach would be to have experts figure it out. 15:18:46 ShaneM: I disagree a bit - we don't have to figure this stuff out. 15:18:50 +1 15:19:00 benadida: People are still going to look to us to write up vocabularies. 15:19:13 benadida: I agree in principle, but we have to bootstrap this somehow. 15:19:39 q+ 15:19:48 ack ShaneM 15:19:48 ShaneM, you wanted to discuss vocabulary evolution 15:20:25 ShaneM: how does ontology discovery works? 15:20:44 benadida: Michael is the mechanical turk behind ontology discovery. 15:21:02 ack me 15:21:25 Michael: I do agree with Shane, we have to focus on what we're doing - RDFa, not vocabularies. 15:21:41 Michael: If you have further information, talk to the vocab authors. 15:21:58 Michael: we have to let people understand that there are certain contraints. 15:22:23 ack msporny 15:23:05 Manu: these questions are general; "what do we mean by 'location'" is a question that's not specific to just one vocabulary 15:23:28 ... to get specific semantics, give people the option to use multiple datatypes 15:23:41 ... the microformats community has dealt with this mostly by ignoring it 15:25:36 ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] 15:25:39 -- CONTINUES 15:26:01 [[ 15:26:01 ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action07] 15:26:01 Manu: next can think about some javascript tools to generate the markup for some of these 15:26:01 ... would be nice to have a unified architecture to create these wizards 15:26:01 ... is there something already in existence we could use for this? 15:26:02 ]] 15:26:08 -- http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action12 15:26:19 -- CONTINUES 15:26:38 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph 15:27:14 ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] 15:27:18 -- CONTINUES 15:27:27 ACTION: Shane write geolocation examples for wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action09] 15:28:28 http://rdfa.info/wiki/Geo-tutorial 15:29:53 Michael: deployment is the 'only' important thing, e.g. in http://www.geonames.org/ 15:31:52 -> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/geo/XGR-geo-20071023/ "Geospatial Vocabulary" (W3C Incubator Group Report) 15:32:35 -> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/geo/XGR-geo-ont-20071023/ "Geospatial Ontologies" W3C Incubator Group Report 23 October 2007 15:32:46 ShaneM: The vocab isn't defined very well. 15:32:56 Michael: People will look at the examples not the vocabulary. 15:33:10 ShaneM: That's fine. 15:33:29 ShaneM: What about URIs that represent the thing and URIs that represent the web page. 15:34:01 ShaneM: I don't like this distinction - could Steven/Ralph go into the wiki and fix it. 15:34:25 Michael: It's perfectly right! It's compliant with the linked data principles. 15:34:34 benadida: We will have to have this discussion at greater length later on. 15:35:26 -> http://esw.w3.org/topic/RDFa_vs_RDFXML 15:35:35 Michael: There is a page on ESW - if we want to discuss that there, it would be good. 15:35:40 -- DONE 15:35:47 ACTION: Steven write vevent examples for wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action08] 15:35:49 -- DONE 15:36:25 ACTION: Steven to migrate VEVENT examples to rdfa.info wiki 15:36:34 ACTION: Ben followup with Fabien on getting his RDFa GRDDL transform transferred to W3C [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action01] 15:36:52 -- CONTINUES 15:37:40 ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] 15:39:08 -- CONTINUES 15:39:23 Topic: State of CR, Implementations, Review of Process. 15:39:33 CURIEs are going to CR soon too 15:39:42 benadida: CR period ends on July 18th 15:40:01 benadida: At that point we should have an implementation report with a couple of implementations that are thoroughly documented. 15:40:10 http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/implementation-report/ 15:40:15 Michael: We have 3 that are fully compliant. 15:40:24 Michael: err, 2 that are fully compliant. 15:40:33 Michael: Shark is also fully compliant. 15:40:51 Ralph: That's great that they have another implementation that's done in CR. 15:41:06 Michael: It would be good to have a fully compliant PHP implementation. 15:41:24 ACTION: Shane to write home page for SPREAD. 15:41:46 benadida: How do we integrate Javascript parsers. 15:42:10 benadida: Do the test harnesses need to be official? Or do we just need to report on them? 15:42:18 Ralph: I'd like to talk about hosting test harness. 15:42:23 benadida: Let's do that right now. 15:42:33 Ralph: I had suggested to move test harness to W3C. 15:42:42 Ralph: Everyone seemed to be in agreement. 15:42:54 Ralph: It's not a requirement. 15:43:10 Ralph: Since this is Working Group output, we should archive it. 15:43:31 Ralph: We didn't get it moved over in time, Manu sent the harness to me, made an attempt to install it. 15:43:51 Ralph: The question was presented to me as to where it should reside and for how long? 15:44:04 Ralph: How long is the test harness useful to the community? 15:44:36 Ralph: I said a couple of years...I asked Manu if he has any issues hosting it. 15:44:56 Ralph: The two questions are: Does the group have any strong preference for where it's hosted? 15:45:06 Ralph: Do we think it does need to be hosted for a number of years? 15:45:43 Michael: The online version could run there, and a version to download. 15:45:48 Manu: Yep, no problem hosting. 15:46:16 Manu: we have no problem continuing to host the harness 15:46:26 ... also willing to check it in to the W3C CVS repository 15:46:42 ... already available for download 15:47:22 ShaneM: Easier to maintain if it's kept at Digital Bazaar. 15:47:29 benadida: Could we proxy it? 15:47:58 Ralph: We'd rather not proxy to non W3C host. 15:48:16 benadida: Okay, are you willing to keep hosting it, Manu? 15:48:18 Manu: Yes. 15:48:32 Michael: The only thing I need are the EARL reports. 15:49:43 Manu: Elias wanted EARL report generation to be cleaned up. 15:50:08 benadida: About the process - is all we need the implementation report? 15:50:20 Ralph: We have to respond to all comments and issues. 15:50:36 Ralph: The implementation report is the main thing we need. 15:50:51 Ralph: It doesn't need to be exhaustive, we just have to show that there are 2 implementations of everything. 15:51:11 Michael: I will be gone at 14th July. 15:51:43 benadida: I'd like to make sure that we include Javascript parsers in final report. 15:51:57 Ralph: It would be good to document as many as we can - although, it's not essential. 15:52:04 Michael: I'm back on the 25th of July. 15:52:27 Ralph: if we were to publish PR on Aug 1st, we need to give them 8 weeks to respond. 15:52:53 Ralph: Publishing the PR any time in august would push us back to september. 15:53:07 benadida: Even if we did it on July 21st, it would still push us back that far right? 15:53:15 Michael: Well, if I'm not here, the XSLT is online. 15:53:40 benadida: We don't need to rush you back from vacation - let's take a look at what we have on July 18th and aim for August 1st for PR request. 15:54:08 benadida: The primer is a note, but people seem to be interested in validation. I feel like adding tweaks on how to validate to the Primer. 15:54:14 ShaneM: You can do that at any time. 15:54:22 Steven: +1 15:54:27 re validation see http://rdfa.info/wiki/How-to-validate 15:54:42 benadida: What about syntax/editorial issues? Should we make that coincide with end of CR? 15:55:00 Ralph: We need to make editorial corrections at PR 15:55:05 benadida: Then we should modify editors draft. 15:55:14 Ralph: Yes, but make sure any change made is editorial. 15:55:38 benadida: Alans comment is the only non-editorial, but we will only make editorial changes. 15:55:54 benadida: I think we know what we have to do for CR. 15:56:01 ACTION: follow up with Elias on JavaScript test harness + EARL 15:56:08 s/follow up/Ben to follow up/ 15:56:26 yay :) 15:56:32 Topic: RDFa Tools & Examples 15:56:51 benadida: I think there are opportunities to help people make sense of RDFa via little tools. 15:57:01 benadida: What are the big needs that we see as far as tools are concerned. 15:57:27 Manu: working on Fuzzbot for FF2 and FF3 15:57:36 ... working on slashdot 15:57:41 ... finalizing hAudio 15:59:06 Michael: working on image/flickr stuff, see e.g. http://sw.joanneum.at/CaMiCatzee/wrapper.php?report=http://danbri.org/foaf.rdf 15:59:45 benadida: There's a chance to talk Songbird folks into using RDFa? 15:59:51 benadida: It would work well with Creative Commons. 16:01:46 benadida: I can talk to Songbird folks - let's coordinate and chat with them. 16:01:53 Manu: That would be great. 16:02:06 Michael: Are you still in contact with Flickr guys? 16:02:14 Michael: What they have for RDFa is wierd... 16:02:29 benadida: I'm working my way to them... they're a good candidate for RDFa. 16:02:40 benadida: I'll keep pushing towards them. 16:02:58 Michael: They do really wierd things... 16:03:10 benadida: I know, they're playing around with it now - need a little guidance... see what I can do. 16:03:20 benadida: One more thing 16:03:34 benadida: A lot of people are wondering what they get now with RDFa. 16:03:42 benadida: Right now, we can start pitching Search Monkey. 16:04:14 benadida: The idea of separation of concern... they could be both the producer and consumer of site data. 16:04:30 benadida: one person can write up RDFa, the Javascript developers can write stuff to consume RDFa. 16:04:38 benadida: That approach has been successful with some people. 16:04:48 Steven: that's a good argument, separate meaning from function. 16:05:05 benadida: I'll try to find some time to work on our stuff internally... to build something with that architecture in mind. 16:05:14 benadida: any other thoughts? 16:05:31 Michael: There is a paper I presented up there - it's important to have lots of RDFa widgets. 16:06:05 Michael: the stuff in that paper isn't publicly available, but it's up there. 16:06:18 Michael: we should highlight tools - no need to write RDFa at the low level. 16:06:36 benadida: This is great, exactly what I'm getting at. 16:06:56 Micheal: It's functional... 16:07:06 benadida: Anything else? 16:07:15 benadida: Keep this stuff going - more implementations, more tools. 16:07:31 -> http://semanticweb.joanneum.at/tutorials/iswc08-rdfa 16:07:43 Michael: Comment on this page if you can. 16:07:58 benadida: This gives us the opportunity to pitch RDFa to semantic web crowd. 16:08:14 Steven: Don't forget about Raptor. 16:08:30 ShaneM: small group inside Google uses Raptor. 16:08:44 Steven: We need to think about how a page should be treated as RDFa. 16:09:22 benadida: okay, thanks everybody. 16:09:31 Ralph: I'm not available next week. 16:09:39 benadida: Can we do the 10th? 16:09:48 Steven: yes. 16:09:48 Ralph: regrets for next week 16:09:52 Michael: yes 16:09:54 Manu: yes 16:10:02 -ShaneM 16:10:05 -Michael_Hausenblas 16:10:07 -Ben_Adida 16:10:08 -Steven 16:10:31 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph 16:10:45 Happy birthday again Micheal - don't forget to celebrate! :) 16:10:58 s/Micheal/Michael/! 16:11:05 ta 16:11:16 btw, we still have that bet running 16:11:17 -Ralph 16:11:21 -msporny 16:11:22 SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended 16:11:23 Attendees were msporny, Michael_Hausenblas, ShaneM, Steven, Ben_Adida, Ralph 16:11:36 what will be ready earlier RDFa REC or Michael's PhD 16:11:39 zakim, bye 16:11:39 Zakim has left #rdfa 16:11:45 haha 16:11:46 still open :) 16:11:48 Michael :) 16:12:00 but you should still celebrate your birthday first 16:12:13 BUT, now the second reader has my PhD and expecting to have my defense in October :) 16:12:24 right, Ralph, will do ;) 16:12:51 so, it will be a *very* exciting October anyway :) 16:13:05 see ya all ! 16:13:06 bye 17:03:41 rrsagent, bye 17:03:41 I see 12 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-actions.rdf : 17:03:41 ACTION: Manu write haudio examples for wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action06] [1] 17:03:41 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-irc#T15-09-39 17:03:41 ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action03] [2] 17:03:41 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-irc#T15-10-03 17:03:41 ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] [3] 17:03:41 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-irc#T15-25-36 17:03:41 ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action07] [4] 17:03:41 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-irc#T15-26-01-1 17:03:41 ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] [5] 17:03:41 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-irc#T15-27-14 17:03:41 ACTION: Shane write geolocation examples for wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action09] [6] 17:03:41 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-irc#T15-27-27 17:03:41 ACTION: Steven write vevent examples for wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action08] [7] 17:03:41 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-irc#T15-35-47 17:03:41 ACTION: Steven to migrate VEVENT examples to rdfa.info wiki [8] 17:03:41 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-irc#T15-36-25 17:03:41 ACTION: Ben followup with Fabien on getting his RDFa GRDDL transform transferred to W3C [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action01] [9] 17:03:41 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-irc#T15-36-34 17:03:41 ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] [10] 17:03:41 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-irc#T15-37-40 17:03:41 ACTION: Shane to write home page for SPREAD. [11] 17:03:41 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-irc#T15-41-24 17:03:41 ACTION: follow up with Elias on JavaScript test harness + EARL [12] 17:03:41 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-irc#T15-56-01