16:48:43 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #owl
16:48:43 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/07/02-owl-irc
16:48:53 <Rinke> Zakim, this will be owl
16:48:53 <Zakim> ok, Rinke; I see SW_OWL()12:00PM scheduled to start 48 minutes ago
16:49:13 <Rinke> RRSAgent, make records public
16:53:30 <bijan> bijan has joined #owl
16:53:47 <bijan> bijan has joined #owl
16:54:24 <calvanese> calvanese has joined #owl
16:54:49 <Zakim> SW_OWL()12:00PM has now started
16:54:56 <Zakim> +??P9
16:55:06 <bijan> zakim, ??P9 is me
16:55:06 <Zakim> +bijan; got it
16:55:12 <bijan> zakim, mute me
16:55:12 <Zakim> sorry, bijan, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
16:55:24 <bijan> Why not? You think I *like* to hear myself talk?
16:55:29 <Rinke> :)
16:55:32 <calvanese> so, bijna you have to say sth
16:55:37 <bijan> What an aribtrary restriction!
16:55:47 <Rinke> unfair
16:55:57 <bijan> Like forbidding class/property punning!
16:56:09 <bijan> sth?
16:56:19 <bijan> Is that Italian for STFU? :)
16:56:30 <calvanese> come on, usually you don't  have problems in talking.  the contrary would be harder :)
16:56:38 <Zakim> + +31.20.525.aaaa
16:56:41 <bijan> Hence the need to mute myself!
16:56:44 <Rinke> zakim, aaaa is me
16:56:44 <Zakim> +Rinke; got it
16:56:46 <bijan> zakim, mute me
16:56:46 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted
16:56:49 <MartinD> MartinD has joined #OWL
16:56:55 <bijan> Oo, that' looks like I snubbed rinke
16:57:04 <Rinke> hm
16:57:06 <Rinke> ;)
16:57:15 <bijan> You can talk and I'll listen :)
16:57:18 <Carsten> Carsten has joined #owl
16:57:32 <Rinke> sure, as if I feel like talking after you've been so rude
16:57:33 <Rinke> tss
16:57:34 <bcuencagrau> bcuencagrau has joined #owl
16:57:34 <bmotik> bmotik has joined #owl
16:58:00 <Zakim> +calvanese
16:58:02 <Zakim> +Evan_Wallace
16:58:05 <IanH> IanH has joined #owl
16:58:07 <ratnesh> ratnesh has joined #owl
16:58:10 <Zakim> +??P12
16:58:12 <calvanese> zakim, mute me
16:58:12 <Zakim> calvanese should now be muted
16:58:14 <bmotik> Zakim, ??P12 is me
16:58:14 <Zakim> +bmotik; got it
16:58:17 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me
16:58:17 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted
16:58:51 <Zakim> + +49.351.463.3.aabb
16:59:00 <Carsten> zakim, +aabb is me
16:59:00 <Zakim> sorry, Carsten, I do not recognize a party named '+aabb'
16:59:01 <Zakim> +??P14
16:59:08 <bcuencagrau> Zakim, ??P14 is me
16:59:08 <Zakim> +bcuencagrau; got it
16:59:13 <Carsten> zakim, aabb is me
16:59:13 <Zakim> +Carsten; got it
16:59:20 <Carsten> zakim, mute me
16:59:20 <Zakim> Carsten should now be muted
16:59:26 <bcuencagrau> Zakim, mute me
16:59:26 <Zakim> bcuencagrau should now be muted
16:59:37 <msmith> msmith has joined #owl
16:59:52 <Zakim> +IanH
17:00:03 <Zakim> +??P17
17:00:04 <MarkusK> MarkusK has joined #owl
17:00:11 <Zakim> +baojie
17:00:24 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
17:00:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see bijan (muted), Rinke, Evan_Wallace, calvanese (muted), bmotik (muted), Carsten (muted), bcuencagrau (muted), IanH, ??P17, baojie
17:00:25 <ratnesh> zakim, ??P17 is ratnesh
17:00:27 <Zakim> On IRC I see MarkusK, msmith, ratnesh, IanH, bmotik, bcuencagrau, Carsten, MartinD, calvanese, bijan, RRSAgent, Zakim, Rinke, sandro, baojie, ewallace, trackbot
17:00:28 <m_schnei> m_schnei has joined #owl
17:00:29 <Zakim> +ratnesh; got it
17:00:29 <Zakim> + +0190827aacc
17:00:38 <Zakim> +msmith
17:00:43 <MartinD> zakim, aacc is me
17:00:43 <Zakim> +MartinD; got it
17:00:53 <MartinD> zakim, mute me
17:00:53 <Zakim> MartinD should now be muted
17:01:26 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:01:57 <ivan> ivan has joined #owl
17:02:19 <ewallace> scribeNick EvanWallace
17:02:30 <ewallace> Topic: admin
17:02:34 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
17:02:34 <Zakim> On the phone I see bijan (muted), Rinke, Evan_Wallace, calvanese (muted), bmotik (muted), Carsten (muted), bcuencagrau (muted), IanH, ratnesh, baojie, MartinD (muted), msmith,
17:02:37 <Zakim> ... MarkusK
17:02:38 <Zakim> On IRC I see ivan, MarkusK, msmith, ratnesh, IanH, bmotik, bcuencagrau, Carsten, MartinD, calvanese, bijan, RRSAgent, Zakim, Rinke, sandro, baojie, ewallace, trackbot
17:02:50 <bijan> Yes!
17:02:55 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
17:02:55 <Zakim> bijan should no longer be muted
17:02:56 <m_schnei> m_schnei has joined #owl
17:03:02 <IanH> q?
17:03:03 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
17:03:03 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
17:03:05 <Zakim> +Ivan
17:03:12 <alanr> alanr has joined #owl
17:03:26 <alanr_> alanr_ has joined #owl
17:03:42 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:03:49 <Zakim> +Sandro
17:03:57 <m_schnei> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
17:03:58 <Zakim> +m_schnei; got it
17:04:02 <bijan> zakim, mute me
17:04:02 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted
17:04:05 <m_schnei> zakim, mute me
17:04:05 <Zakim> m_schnei should now be muted
17:04:08 <IanH> q?
17:04:13 <Zakim> + +1.617.278.aadd
17:04:17 <alanr> zakim, aadd is alanr
17:04:17 <Zakim> +alanr; got it
17:04:21 <ewallace> Zakim, this will be owlwg
17:04:21 <Zakim> ok, ewallace; I see SW_OWL()12:00PM scheduled to start 64 minutes ago
17:04:26 <ivan> zakim, mute me
17:04:26 <Zakim> sorry, ivan, I don't know what conference this is
17:04:31 <ivan> ???
17:04:46 <JeffP> JeffP has joined #owl
17:04:49 <IanH> q?
17:04:50 <Rinke> zakim, this is owl
17:04:50 <Zakim> ok, Rinke; that matches SW_OWL()12:00PM
17:04:54 <msmith> the scribee thinks they look good
17:05:01 <ivan> zakim, mute me
17:05:02 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted
17:05:17 <IanH> PROPOSED: accept previous minutes http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/meeting/2008-06-25
17:05:20 <msmith> +1 to accept 2008-06-25 minutes
17:05:23 <Rinke> +1
17:05:26 <calvanese> +1
17:05:26 <MartinD> +1
17:05:27 <ivan> +1
17:05:28 <ewallace> +1
17:05:30 <IanH> +1
17:05:34 <Zakim> +JeffP
17:05:48 <ewallace> RESOLVED: accept previous minutes http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/meeting/2008-06-25
17:05:49 <JeffP> +1
17:06:20 <ewallace> Topic: Action Items status
17:06:22 <IanH> q?
17:07:01 <IanH> q?
17:07:07 <ewallace> Act 163 completed
17:07:29 <bijan> Done and closed
17:07:42 <bijan> No
17:07:50 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
17:07:50 <Zakim> bijan should no longer be muted
17:07:54 <IanH> q?
17:07:55 <ewallace> Topic: Action 156
17:08:29 <IanH> q?
17:08:42 <msmith> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Annotation_System
17:08:50 <ivan> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Annotation_System#Simple_Syntax_Example
17:08:51 <ewallace> Action 156 done
17:08:51 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 156
17:09:07 <ewallace> s/156/42/
17:09:20 <ewallace> topic: Action 156
17:09:25 <ewallace> continued
17:09:46 <ewallace> topic: action 157
17:10:03 <ewallace> continued
17:10:03 <bijan> zakim, mute me
17:10:03 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted
17:10:06 <IanH> q?
17:10:34 <ewallace> topic: action 158
17:10:42 <ewallace> done and closed
17:10:54 <m_schnei> q+
17:11:02 <ewallace> action 159 continued
17:11:02 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 159
17:11:10 <calvanese> zakim, unmute me
17:11:11 <Zakim> calvanese should no longer be muted
17:11:13 <bijan> He is
17:11:14 <IanH> q?
17:11:17 <ewallace> action 161 continued
17:11:17 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 161
17:11:34 <IanH> q?
17:11:48 <ewallace> topic: action 161
17:11:57 <bmotik> OK, I'll just add it right away.
17:12:04 <IanH> q?
17:12:24 <JeffP> q?
17:12:44 <JeffP> q+
17:12:47 <ewallace> Diego will write up what his investigation revealed
17:12:59 <bijan> Subject lin contains ACTION-Number
17:13:10 <IanH> q?
17:13:14 <m_schnei> zakim, unmute me
17:13:14 <Zakim> m_schnei should no longer be muted
17:14:36 <ewallace> topic: 159
17:14:37 <m_schnei> i step back from 159
17:14:43 <m_schnei> zakim, mute me
17:14:43 <Zakim> m_schnei should now be muted
17:14:44 <IanH> q?
17:14:52 <IanH> ack m_schnei
17:15:01 <ewallace> jeffP: cmt on inconsistancy
17:15:01 <IanH> ack JeffP
17:15:04 <IanH> q?
17:15:32 <bcuencagrau> you need the data to have the inconsistency
17:15:42 <IanH> q?
17:16:03 <ewallace> topic: action 165
17:16:06 <IanH> q?
17:16:15 <bmotik> q+
17:16:20 <m_schnei> zakim, mute me
17:16:20 <Zakim> m_schnei should now be muted
17:16:30 <ewallace> Diego: Easy keys are compatible with key notion in DL-Lite
17:16:33 <bmotik> -q
17:16:48 <bmotik> q+
17:16:54 <ewallace> Diego: we need to restict these keys in the same way
17:16:58 <IanH> q?
17:17:01 <Zhe> Zhe has joined #owl
17:17:11 <ewallace> Diego: the keys cannot be subtyped
17:17:16 <bmotik> Zakim, unmute me
17:17:16 <Zakim> bmotik should no longer be muted
17:17:28 <Zakim> +Zhe
17:17:35 <Zhe> Zakim, mute me
17:17:35 <Zakim> Zhe should now be muted
17:17:36 <IanH> q?
17:17:43 <IanH> ack bmotik
17:17:46 <IanH> q?
17:17:53 <ewallace> diego to write up how easy-keys could be used in DL-lite
17:17:55 <msmith> q+
17:18:01 <Zakim> -Sandro
17:18:02 <IanH> q?
17:18:03 <Zakim> +Sandro
17:18:23 <IanH> q?
17:18:29 <IanH> ack msmith
17:18:53 <ewallace> msmith: asked if we described unique names assumption in the profile document
17:18:57 <msmith> I see, I didn't realize this had changed
17:19:14 <IanH> q?
17:19:21 <ewallace> Boris: it is described
17:19:38 <ewallace> topic: action 164
17:19:39 <calvanese> zakim, mute me
17:19:39 <Zakim> calvanese should now be muted
17:19:43 <IanH> q?
17:19:47 <ewallace> done
17:19:53 <ewallace> topic: Issues
17:20:42 <alanr_> could we get a review of what the issue was?
17:20:42 <ewallace> Issue 16
17:20:49 <IanH> q?
17:21:00 <bmotik> +q
17:21:10 <IanH> q?
17:21:15 <IanH> ack bmotik
17:21:17 <bijan> Peter's not here, and he's the issue raiser?
17:21:41 <ewallace> IanH: the issue was - could you annotate annotations?
17:22:32 <ewallace> boris: problem - you can annotate entities and axioms, but not annotations
17:23:07 <ewallace> ... peter proposed that annotations could contain a set of other annotations
17:24:17 <IanH> q?
17:24:35 <ewallace> boris: having an axiom that contains another axiom is hard in RDF
17:24:46 <alanr_> q+
17:24:57 <IanH> q?
17:25:04 <ewallace> ... my proposal is to can the issue because both proposed solutions are quite hard
17:25:24 <ewallace> alanr: I wonder if the question might go away with rich annotations
17:25:45 <bmotik> +q
17:25:48 <IanH> q?
17:25:54 <IanH> ack alanr_
17:25:55 <ivan> ack alanr_ 
17:26:01 <ewallace> ... there are motivating use cases for this
17:26:09 <bijan> q+
17:26:27 <bijan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data:_URI_scheme
17:26:29 <bijan> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Reification_Alternatives
17:26:41 <ewallace> ... how is the reification in one of the proposed solutions harder than where we have done this elsewhere
17:26:49 <IanH> q?
17:26:56 <IanH> ack bmotik
17:26:58 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
17:26:58 <Zakim> bijan should no longer be muted
17:27:07 <IanH> ack bijan
17:28:00 <alanr_> Mcdermott was convincing to me....
17:28:13 <alanr_> one + level of indirection
17:28:40 <alanr_> q?
17:28:43 <alanr_> q+
17:29:31 <ewallace> bijan: may need to recommend how to construct annotations for meta-annotations
17:29:55 <ewallace> bijan: set up your structure of annotations so that you always reify in a nice way
17:29:59 <IanH> q?
17:30:05 <ewallace> ... we could work out the pattern for this
17:30:06 <bijan> zakim, mute me
17:30:06 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted
17:30:39 <ewallace> alan: the idea of structuring annotations works for new annotation but not for old rdf annotations
17:30:41 <IanH> q?
17:30:46 <ivan> ack alanr_ 
17:30:47 <bijan> data: uris could solve this
17:30:51 <bijan> But they are ugly
17:30:57 <bijan> Literals as well
17:31:40 <ewallace> ianH: are annotations inside annotations asserted in the KB?
17:31:54 <m_schnei> q+
17:31:57 <m_schnei> q-
17:32:01 <bmotik> q+
17:32:19 <IanH> q?
17:32:24 <IanH> ack bmotik
17:32:44 <bijan> q+
17:32:45 <ewallace> boris: the problem is that there is no way in rdf to say this axiom contains an axiom
17:33:04 <ewallace> ... as soon as its in a bag of triples in rdf it is asserted
17:33:43 <bijan> there's a queue!
17:33:45 <ewallace> ... can't tell after whether the triple occured at the top level or inside another triple
17:34:17 <m_schnei> q+
17:34:50 <IanH> q?
17:34:57 <m_schnei> q-
17:34:59 <ewallace> alan: I'd be happy to work through the example with Boris over email
17:35:05 <bijan> ack me
17:35:15 <alanr_> Note: I will have to leave at 2pm.
17:35:44 <ewallace> bijan: this problem of not having syntactic context is something I considered
17:35:45 <IanH> q?
17:36:17 <ewallace> ... people who are tracking this should look at the reification table
17:36:33 <bijan> zakim, mute me
17:36:33 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted
17:37:30 <ewallace> skipping 67 
17:37:42 <ewallace> issue 126
17:37:54 <ewallace> topic: issue 126
17:38:03 <IanH> q?
17:38:07 <alanr_> q+
17:38:18 <IanH> ack alanr_
17:38:35 <ewallace> alan: it seemed like there was clear consensus on an underlying Real datatype
17:38:41 <msmith> q+ to disagree on type promotion
17:38:52 <IanH> q?
17:38:56 <ewallace> ... and floating point is promoted to this for reasoning
17:39:16 <bijan> +1 to disagree with type promotion
17:39:25 <bmotik> +q
17:39:35 <ewallace> ... there was a question on whether or not non-numeric values of float like +inf were also promoted
17:39:40 <ivan> ack msmith 
17:39:40 <Zakim> msmith, you wanted to disagree on type promotion
17:40:14 <ewallace> msmith: I agree we want an underlying real datatype, but disagree promoting xsd: float
17:40:15 <alanr_> is it clear what "promotion" means? Perhaps Boris should explain.
17:40:15 <bijan> I also thing Reals shouldn't have NaN. Those aren't reals! Why make a clean datatype and then crude it up!
17:40:38 <alanr_> the argument is that floats are there to represent machine computations.
17:40:39 <ewallace> ... don't understand the point of having both xsd:float and xsd:decimal
17:41:02 <IanH> q?
17:41:03 <alanr_> This is an important use case for Science Commons
17:41:04 <alanr_> 1+
17:41:08 <alanr_> q+
17:41:10 <alanr_> not 1+
17:41:15 <IanH> q?
17:41:16 <MartinD> +1
17:41:23 <IanH> ack bmotik
17:41:42 <ewallace> boris: promotion means to restrict float values
17:42:06 <ewallace> boris: I'm pretty happy with ditching float and double, but this will look bad
17:42:12 <bijan> "Ditching"? Isn't it that we "aren't adding"
17:42:15 <bijan> q+
17:42:23 <ewallace> boris: you might want to store these in an efficient way
17:42:50 <bijan> Floats aren't continuous
17:42:52 <Carsten> +1000
17:42:55 <bijan> I'm confused
17:43:02 <IanH> q?
17:43:14 <bijan> ?
17:43:17 <ewallace> boris: I would bet if we keep the continuous aspects of float, then now implementation will be correct
17:43:20 <bijan> It's arbitrary sized decimals
17:43:34 <MarkusK> yes, I also think that xsd:decimal supports no exponent notation
17:44:01 <bijan> It can't !
17:44:13 <IanH> q?
17:44:13 <bijan> There's too much here
17:44:16 <alanr_> http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/#decimal
17:44:20 <bijan> Can we chunk the discussion a littl
17:44:41 <IanH> q?
17:44:52 <ewallace> boris: a possible way out is to define an owl:float and owl:real
17:45:13 <IanH> q?
17:45:15 <bijan> http://www.java2s.com/Code/Oracle/Data-Type/IS-NAN.htm
17:45:28 <ewallace> alan: wrt continuous aspect: 
17:45:33 <MarkusK> (for the minutes) xsd:float also has non-numerical numbers, NaN and infinite
17:45:39 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
17:45:39 <Zakim> bijan should no longer be muted
17:45:55 <MarkusK> s /numbers/values/
17:46:17 <bijan> zakim, mute me
17:46:17 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted
17:46:46 <IanH> q?
17:46:54 <IanH> ack alanr_
17:47:08 <ewallace> alan: effect on floats, the only consequence to considering them real would be 
17:47:26 <ewallace> ...
17:47:46 <ewallace> alan: asked some folk, they would prefer real
17:47:53 <m_schnei> (for the minutes, too) IEEE floats also have +/- 0, do xsd:float have too?
17:48:04 <bmotik> q+
17:48:05 <ewallace> alan: also asked about +-inf and NaN
17:48:18 <ewallace> alan: they considered these to be essential
17:48:46 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
17:48:46 <Zakim> bijan should no longer be muted
17:48:47 <IanH> q?
17:48:57 <ewallace> alan: the objective is to be able to transmit and contain numeric data in an OWL file
17:49:18 <ewallace> bijan: the first step I have is if we are going to talk about something with a binary rep.
17:49:50 <ewallace> bijan: we can't avoid rounding, we can't separate the value space from the representation
17:49:53 <alanr_> OWL does not produce new floats in the course of reasoning.
17:50:11 <alanr_> q+
17:50:40 <ewallace> ianH: it seems to me that we are proposing in owl to have a virtual float that is continuous
17:50:59 <alanr_> So precision issues are external to OWL - OWL would not disturb any precision or do any rounding.
17:51:01 <IanH> ack bijan
17:51:09 <ewallace> bijan: so you are just treating the float rep as an idiosyncratic rep of reals
17:51:30 <IanH> q?
17:51:31 <ewallace> boris: the value space is the set of real numbers between the min and max of float
17:51:36 <IanH> ack bmotik
17:52:21 <alanr_> q-
17:52:23 <Carsten> q+
17:52:30 <alanr_> Ian asked my question
17:52:35 <IanH> q?
17:53:12 <alanr_> 2.0 float is not considered different than int float
17:53:45 <IanH> q?
17:53:46 <Carsten> zakim, unmute me
17:53:46 <Zakim> Carsten should no longer be muted
17:53:52 <bmotik> q+
17:54:02 <ewallace> carsten: I like this proposal
17:54:04 <IanH> ack Carsten
17:54:24 <ewallace> ... either dropping float completely, or treating them as reals for reasoning
17:54:51 <alanr_> no float predicate, I think.
17:54:54 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
17:54:54 <Zakim> bijan was not muted, bijan
17:54:57 <IanH> q?
17:55:06 <IanH> ack bmotik
17:55:14 <ewallace> boris: floats are a subset of reals
17:55:49 <ewallace> carsten: treat float as a property of a real number?
17:55:54 <bijan> q+
17:55:58 <IanH> q?
17:56:04 <msmith> q+ to ask about the benefit of this proposal
17:56:13 <ewallace> boris: the reason for doing this is so that you can ship data around as reals
17:56:22 <Carsten> perfect
17:56:27 <Carsten> zakim, mute me
17:56:27 <Zakim> Carsten should now be muted
17:56:28 <IanH> q?
17:56:28 <alanr_> consider: oracle than answers between a and b, how many values. For float we decide to answer: Infinity , always
17:56:29 <bijan> One question at a time!
17:56:32 <bijan> Please!@
17:56:35 <m_schnei> q- 
17:56:43 <alanr_> q+ to mention nan as data bottom
17:56:46 <bijan> I wanted to respond to the carsten questiona nd now we're off track
17:56:54 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
17:56:54 <Zakim> bijan was not muted, bijan
17:56:57 <ewallace> boris: if you have something like 1 / 0 then the ontology is unsatisfiable
17:57:09 <alanr_> q?
17:57:09 <IanH> q?
17:57:17 <IanH> q?
17:57:21 <IanH> q?
17:59:01 <IanH> q?
17:59:06 <IanH> ack bijan
17:59:13 <ewallace> bijan: there are 3 options for the predicate thing
17:59:38 <alanr_> comment: Lexical float doesn't work - because of defined rounding.
17:59:42 <ewallace> ... no predicate
18:00:18 <IanH> q?
18:00:59 <bmotik> q+
18:01:04 <IanH> q?
18:02:31 <ewallace> alan: we want to capture the result of an experiment and that may include NaN values
18:02:40 <IanH> q?
18:02:55 <Zakim> -alanr
18:02:59 <IanH> ack alanr_
18:02:59 <Zakim> alanr_, you wanted to mention nan as data bottom
18:03:03 <ewallace> ... they don't care about how many discrete values between here and there
18:03:04 <IanH> q?
18:03:27 <bijan> the ˇvalue spaceˇs of all ˇprimitiveˇ datatypes are disjoint (they do not share any values)
18:03:32 <ewallace> msmith: people using XSD already make the choice between xsd:float and xsd:decimal
18:03:36 <bijan> http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/#rf-fund-facets
18:03:43 <IanH> q?
18:03:50 <bijan> (double and decimal are primitive datatypes in xsd)
18:03:56 <IanH> q?
18:03:59 <ewallace> ... given the fact that they chose xsd:float, we ought to respect the choice
18:04:00 <IanH> ack msmith
18:04:00 <Zakim> msmith, you wanted to ask about the benefit of this proposal
18:04:07 <IanH> ack bmotik
18:04:10 <IanH> q?
18:04:22 <bijan> q+ to point to 4.2
18:04:38 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
18:04:38 <Zakim> bijan was not muted, bijan
18:04:44 <ewallace> boris: the reason that float is not put under decimal in xsd may be because of the 3 special values
18:04:59 <IanH> q?
18:05:12 <IanH> ack bijan
18:05:12 <Zakim> bijan, you wanted to point to 4.2
18:05:19 <JeffP> the spec is somehow inconsistent
18:05:19 <msmith> http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/#equal
18:05:38 <alanr> alanr has joined #owl
18:06:07 <ewallace> bijan: the spec says the value spaces of float and decimal are disjoint
18:06:44 <alanr> Does it actually say they are disjoint, or does it not say they have a shared value space (negation or naf)
18:06:54 <msmith> it says disjoint
18:06:57 <ewallace> topic: Issue 131
18:07:07 <Zhe> yes
18:07:18 <Zhe> let boris go first
18:07:27 <IanH> q?
18:07:38 <Zhe> zakim, unmute me
18:07:38 <Zakim> Zhe should no longer be muted
18:07:49 <IanH> q?
18:07:52 <ewallace> boris: problem with OWL R profile is OWL R full version is not a syntactic fragment
18:08:43 <ewallace> the idea is to have basically 1 OWL R profile
18:08:58 <IanH> q?
18:09:12 <m_schnei> q+
18:09:16 <Zhe> q+
18:09:18 <ewallace> boris: if the ontology is written in triples it is in OWL R if it is parseable as OWL R
18:09:37 <IanH> q?
18:09:46 <IanH> ack Zhe
18:10:00 <ewallace> Zhe: Yes. I do agree with Boris on this.  It seems a bit odd to have these two versions.
18:10:14 <m_schnei> zakim, unmute me
18:10:14 <Zakim> m_schnei should no longer be muted
18:10:17 <ewallace> ... I see the value of combining the syntactic restriction into the profile
18:10:51 <ewallace> m_schei: regarding confusion - it is not confusing from an rdf point of view because
18:11:03 <bmotik> +q
18:11:04 <ewallace> ... any sublanguage is a semantic sublanguage
18:11:09 <bijan> q+ to talk about user perspective
18:11:14 <IanH> q?
18:11:16 <m_schnei> zakim, mute me
18:11:16 <Zakim> m_schnei should now be muted
18:11:17 <ewallace> ... I don't share the argument.
18:11:26 <IanH> ack m_schnei
18:11:36 <ewallace> boris: I think what is confusing is from an ontology point of view.
18:11:37 <bcuencagrau> +q
18:11:57 <ewallace> ... you don't know what it means.  You can't interpret it in an unambiguous way.
18:12:08 <bijan> ack me
18:12:08 <Zakim> bijan, you wanted to talk about user perspective
18:12:17 <bijan> I'm still on the queue!
18:12:20 <bijan> No no!
18:12:25 <ewallace> ... what is the point also from a user's perspective, when the meaning is ill-defined.
18:12:57 <ewallace> bijan: In my experience users find the semantic subsetting confusing.
18:13:16 <IanH> q?
18:13:20 <bcuencagrau> zakim, unmute me
18:13:20 <Zakim> bcuencagrau should no longer be muted
18:13:20 <bijan> zakim, mute me
18:13:21 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted
18:13:22 <bmotik> q-
18:13:26 <ewallace> ... In our spec.s, all the other profiles are syntactic subsets
18:13:30 <IanH> q?
18:13:41 <IanH> ack bcuencagrau
18:13:50 <ewallace> bernardo: I totally agree with Bijan on this.  The purpose of OWL R is to define a language
18:14:04 <IanH> q?
18:14:11 <ewallace> ... that is easily implementable using production rules.
18:14:22 <IanH> q?
18:14:35 <ewallace> ... What people real care about is this ability to implement the reasoning using a rule engine.
18:14:36 <bcuencagrau> zakim, unmute me
18:14:36 <Zakim> bcuencagrau was not muted, bcuencagrau
18:14:40 <bcuencagrau> zakim, mute me
18:14:40 <Zakim> bcuencagrau should now be muted
18:14:53 <m_schnei> zakim, unmute me
18:14:53 <Zakim> m_schnei was not muted, m_schnei
18:14:54 <bijan> Yes
18:14:57 <JeffP> y
18:15:24 <ewallace> IanH: to M_schnei - what if they use some rdfs syntax and no rdfs interpretation is made
18:15:34 <ewallace> ... wouldn't the user be surprised?
18:15:38 <bijan> q+
18:15:42 <Rinke> +q to ask about relation with DLP
18:15:49 <IanH> q?
18:15:52 <bmotik> q+
18:16:26 <IanH> q?
18:16:37 <ewallace> m_schei: you would restrict the reasoning to rdf in a tool like Jena, you would be explicitly aware of this
18:17:05 <ewallace> m_schei: run the reasoning and see what inference graph is produced
18:17:18 <IanH> q?
18:17:24 <m_schnei> zakim, mute me
18:17:24 <Zakim> m_schnei should now be muted
18:17:26 <Zhe> q+
18:17:26 <ewallace> ... you of course have to know which reasoner you are using
18:17:36 <ivan> ack bijan 
18:18:23 <ewallace> Bijan: you will still be able to do the RDF style reasoning
18:18:49 <IanH> q?
18:18:59 <ivan> ack Rinke 
18:18:59 <Zakim> Rinke, you wanted to ask about relation with DLP
18:19:06 <ewallace> ... In OWLland people are used to having certain syntax indicate the reasoning features in the interpretation
18:19:30 <bijan> (DLP and hornSHIQ are also syntactic fragments)
18:19:34 <ewallace> rinke: when we started we had dlp, and horn-shiq and others
18:19:47 <IanH> q?
18:20:00 <ivan> ack bmotik 
18:20:08 <ewallace> ... How will this impact people who use DLP like stuff
18:20:17 <m_schnei> Motivation for OWL R was RDFS 3.0 / OWL-Prime
18:20:30 <ewallace> boris: Horn-SHIQ was dropped because there were too many fragments
18:20:37 <bijan> And a champion in the working group :)
18:20:48 <ewallace> ... we just kept those that had larger user bases
18:21:04 <m_schnei> All the fragments in the beginning were *DL* fragments --> HENCE syntactic fragments 
18:21:34 <bijan> All the fragments in the beginning were *OWL* fragments --> HENCE syntactic fragments
18:21:39 <ewallace> Boris: what remains is OWL R.  You can still use production rules or other similar tools for it.
18:21:59 <bijan> OWL lite is a syntactic fragment of OWL DL which is a syntactic fragment of OWL Full
18:22:02 <IanH> q?
18:22:04 <m_schnei> Full fragements are always semantic fragments, they are always applyable on every RDF graph
18:22:04 <ivan> ack Zhe 
18:22:14 <ewallace> Boris: We are just saying there is a syntactic check that can indicate which profile is being used.
18:22:43 <bijan> OWL DL and OWL Lite *are* fragments of full. What you say is false. And I'll stop the back chat ;)
18:22:44 <ewallace> Zhe: Oracle is planning to support this profile in the future and it is probable that we
18:22:51 <IanH> q?
18:22:52 <ivan> q+
18:23:00 <ivan> ack ivan 
18:23:06 <ewallace> ... will include the capability to bypass the syntax check.
18:23:27 <bmotik> q+
18:23:28 <IanH> q?
18:23:29 <ewallace> ivan: what I would like to understand is if we go with Boris' proposal and I'm in RDFland
18:23:35 <ewallace> ... what exactly do I lose?
18:24:01 <ewallace> IanH: I guess you lose the ability to consider some graphs as OWL R.
18:24:04 <bijan> q+
18:24:29 <IanH> q?
18:24:31 <ewallace> IanH: Like if you include SomeValuesFrom constructs.
18:24:43 <IanH> ack bmotik
18:25:04 <ewallace> Boris: you don't lose anything.  The rules will work exactly as they are.  You don't lose any
18:25:19 <IanH> q?
18:25:21 <Zhe> q+
18:25:55 <ewallace> ... expressive power.  The syntax forbidden doesn't have rules for the corresponding reasoning.
18:26:04 <IanH> q?
18:26:10 <IanH> ack bijan
18:26:22 <ewallace> bijan: in a way the fragment is saying these are the things we know how to do something interesting with.
18:27:08 <m_schnei> what is with the RDFS axiomatic triples?
18:27:09 <bcuencagrau> +q
18:27:14 <IanH> q?
18:27:18 <ivan> ack Zhe 
18:27:21 <Zhe> zakim, unmute me
18:27:21 <Zakim> Zhe was not muted, Zhe
18:27:22 <bcuencagrau> zakim, unmute me
18:27:23 <Zakim> bcuencagrau should no longer be muted
18:27:26 <ewallace> Zhe: to Ivan's point, expressivity is not lost.  Just some ontologies will be rejected, if syntactic checking is on.
18:27:27 <ivan> ack bcuencagrau 
18:27:50 <ewallace> bernardo: we have an additional benefit from specifying this as a syntactic fragment
18:28:25 <bcuencagrau> zakim, mute me
18:28:25 <Zakim> bcuencagrau should now be muted
18:28:26 <ewallace> ... you can know if you are in the fragment, and that is a desirable feature.
18:29:03 <ivan> bye
18:29:07 <Rinke> bye
18:29:07 <JeffP> bye
18:29:08 <Zhe> thanks
18:29:09 <MarkusK> bye
18:29:11 <ratnesh> bye
18:29:13 <Zakim> -Ivan
18:29:15 <bijan> Yay to evan!
18:29:15 <m_schnei> bye
18:29:17 <Zakim> -Carsten
18:29:18 <Zakim> -JeffP
18:29:18 <Carsten> bye
18:29:19 <Zakim> -bcuencagrau
18:29:19 <Zakim> -msmith
18:29:20 <Zakim> -bmotik
18:29:21 <Zakim> -baojie
18:29:23 <Zakim> -MarkusK
18:29:25 <Zakim> -ratnesh
18:29:25 <ewallace> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:29:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/02-owl-minutes.html ewallace
18:29:27 <Zakim> -MartinD
18:29:29 <Zakim> -bijan
18:29:31 <Zakim> -Rinke
18:29:33 <Zakim> -Zhe
18:29:35 <Zakim> -IanH
18:29:37 <Zakim> -calvanese
18:29:39 <Zakim> -Sandro
18:29:41 <Zakim> -m_schnei
18:29:43 <IanH> rssagent, make minutes public
18:29:43 <ewallace> rrsagent, make log world-readable
18:29:50 <MartinD> MartinD has left #OWL
18:29:56 <ewallace> rrsagent, make log public
18:30:02 <IanH> Is that the right syntax?
18:30:08 <IanH> OK -- got it now I think
18:30:22 <IanH> I can *never* remember this stuff!
18:30:31 <IanH> OK -- and thanks again.
18:30:51 <IanH> I'll have to get one
18:30:55 <Zakim> -Evan_Wallace
18:30:56 <Zakim> SW_OWL()12:00PM has ended
18:30:57 <Zakim> Attendees were bijan, +31.20.525.aaaa, Rinke, calvanese, Evan_Wallace, bmotik, +49.351.463.3.aabb, bcuencagrau, Carsten, IanH, baojie, ratnesh, +0190827aacc, msmith, MartinD,
18:30:59 <Zakim> ... MarkusK, Ivan, Sandro, m_schnei, +1.617.278.aadd, alanr, JeffP, Zhe
18:31:20 <sandro> ewallace, I'm here if you need any help with the minutes, or just have suggestion (or more bugs).
18:53:48 <msmith> msmith has left #owl
20:56:58 <Zakim> Zakim has left #owl