IRC log of owl on 2008-07-02

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:48:43 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #owl
16:48:43 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/07/02-owl-irc
16:48:53 [Rinke]: Zakim, this will be owl
16:48:53 [Zakim]: ok, Rinke; I see SW_OWL()12:00PM scheduled to start 48 minutes ago
16:49:13 [Rinke]: RRSAgent, make records public
16:53:30 [bijan]: bijan has joined #owl
16:53:47 [bijan]: bijan has joined #owl
16:54:24 [calvanese]: calvanese has joined #owl
16:54:49 [Zakim]: SW_OWL()12:00PM has now started
16:54:56 [Zakim]: +??P9
16:55:06 [bijan]: zakim, ??P9 is me
16:55:06 [Zakim]: +bijan; got it
16:55:12 [bijan]: zakim, mute me
16:55:12 [Zakim]: sorry, bijan, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
16:55:24 [bijan]: Why not? You think I *like* to hear myself talk?
16:55:29 [Rinke]: :)
16:55:32 [calvanese]: so, bijna you have to say sth
16:55:37 [bijan]: What an aribtrary restriction!
16:55:47 [Rinke]: unfair
16:55:57 [bijan]: Like forbidding class/property punning!
16:56:09 [bijan]: sth?
16:56:19 [bijan]: Is that Italian for STFU? :)
16:56:30 [calvanese]: come on, usually you don't have problems in talking. the contrary would be harder :)
16:56:38 [Zakim]: + +31.20.525.aaaa
16:56:41 [bijan]: Hence the need to mute myself!
16:56:44 [Rinke]: zakim, aaaa is me
16:56:44 [Zakim]: +Rinke; got it
16:56:46 [bijan]: zakim, mute me
16:56:46 [Zakim]: bijan should now be muted
16:56:49 [MartinD]: MartinD has joined #OWL
16:56:55 [bijan]: Oo, that' looks like I snubbed rinke
16:57:04 [Rinke]: hm
16:57:06 [Rinke]: ;)
16:57:15 [bijan]: You can talk and I'll listen :)
16:57:18 [Carsten]: Carsten has joined #owl
16:57:32 [Rinke]: sure, as if I feel like talking after you've been so rude
16:57:33 [Rinke]: tss
16:57:34 [bcuencagrau]: bcuencagrau has joined #owl
16:57:34 [bmotik]: bmotik has joined #owl
16:58:00 [Zakim]: +calvanese
16:58:02 [Zakim]: +Evan_Wallace
16:58:05 [IanH]: IanH has joined #owl
16:58:07 [ratnesh]: ratnesh has joined #owl
16:58:10 [Zakim]: +??P12
16:58:12 [calvanese]: zakim, mute me
16:58:12 [Zakim]: calvanese should now be muted
16:58:14 [bmotik]: Zakim, ??P12 is me
16:58:14 [Zakim]: +bmotik; got it
16:58:17 [bmotik]: Zakim, mute me
16:58:17 [Zakim]: bmotik should now be muted
16:58:51 [Zakim]: + +49.351.463.3.aabb
16:59:00 [Carsten]: zakim, +aabb is me
16:59:00 [Zakim]: sorry, Carsten, I do not recognize a party named '+aabb'
16:59:01 [Zakim]: +??P14
16:59:08 [bcuencagrau]: Zakim, ??P14 is me
16:59:08 [Zakim]: +bcuencagrau; got it
16:59:13 [Carsten]: zakim, aabb is me
16:59:13 [Zakim]: +Carsten; got it
16:59:20 [Carsten]: zakim, mute me
16:59:20 [Zakim]: Carsten should now be muted
16:59:26 [bcuencagrau]: Zakim, mute me
16:59:26 [Zakim]: bcuencagrau should now be muted
16:59:37 [msmith]: msmith has joined #owl
16:59:52 [Zakim]: +IanH
17:00:03 [Zakim]: +??P17
17:00:04 [MarkusK]: MarkusK has joined #owl
17:00:11 [Zakim]: +baojie
17:00:24 [IanH]: zakim, who is here?
17:00:24 [Zakim]: On the phone I see bijan (muted), Rinke, Evan_Wallace, calvanese (muted), bmotik (muted), Carsten (muted), bcuencagrau (muted), IanH, ??P17, baojie
17:00:25 [ratnesh]: zakim, ??P17 is ratnesh
17:00:27 [Zakim]: On IRC I see MarkusK, msmith, ratnesh, IanH, bmotik, bcuencagrau, Carsten, MartinD, calvanese, bijan, RRSAgent, Zakim, Rinke, sandro, baojie, ewallace, trackbot
17:00:28 [m_schnei]: m_schnei has joined #owl
17:00:29 [Zakim]: +ratnesh; got it
17:00:29 [Zakim]: + +0190827aacc
17:00:38 [Zakim]: +msmith
17:00:43 [MartinD]: zakim, aacc is me
17:00:43 [Zakim]: +MartinD; got it
17:00:53 [MartinD]: zakim, mute me
17:00:53 [Zakim]: MartinD should now be muted
17:01:26 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
17:01:57 [ivan]: ivan has joined #owl
17:02:19 [ewallace]: scribeNick EvanWallace
17:02:30 [ewallace]: Topic: admin
17:02:34 [IanH]: zakim, who is here?
17:02:34 [Zakim]: On the phone I see bijan (muted), Rinke, Evan_Wallace, calvanese (muted), bmotik (muted), Carsten (muted), bcuencagrau (muted), IanH, ratnesh, baojie, MartinD (muted), msmith,
17:02:37 [Zakim]: ... MarkusK
17:02:38 [Zakim]: On IRC I see ivan, MarkusK, msmith, ratnesh, IanH, bmotik, bcuencagrau, Carsten, MartinD, calvanese, bijan, RRSAgent, Zakim, Rinke, sandro, baojie, ewallace, trackbot
17:02:50 [bijan]: Yes!
17:02:55 [bijan]: zakim, unmute me
17:02:55 [Zakim]: bijan should no longer be muted
17:02:56 [m_schnei]: m_schnei has joined #owl
17:03:02 [IanH]: q?
17:03:03 [ivan]: zakim, dial ivan-voip
17:03:03 [Zakim]: ok, ivan; the call is being made
17:03:05 [Zakim]: +Ivan
17:03:12 [alanr]: alanr has joined #owl
17:03:26 [alanr_]: alanr_ has joined #owl
17:03:42 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
17:03:49 [Zakim]: +Sandro
17:03:57 [m_schnei]: zakim, [IPcaller] is me
17:03:58 [Zakim]: +m_schnei; got it
17:04:02 [bijan]: zakim, mute me
17:04:02 [Zakim]: bijan should now be muted
17:04:05 [m_schnei]: zakim, mute me
17:04:05 [Zakim]: m_schnei should now be muted
17:04:08 [IanH]: q?
17:04:13 [Zakim]: + +1.617.278.aadd
17:04:17 [alanr]: zakim, aadd is alanr
17:04:17 [Zakim]: +alanr; got it
17:04:21 [ewallace]: Zakim, this will be owlwg
17:04:21 [Zakim]: ok, ewallace; I see SW_OWL()12:00PM scheduled to start 64 minutes ago
17:04:26 [ivan]: zakim, mute me
17:04:26 [Zakim]: sorry, ivan, I don't know what conference this is
17:04:31 [ivan]: ???
17:04:46 [JeffP]: JeffP has joined #owl
17:04:49 [IanH]: q?
17:04:50 [Rinke]: zakim, this is owl
17:04:50 [Zakim]: ok, Rinke; that matches SW_OWL()12:00PM
17:04:54 [msmith]: the scribee thinks they look good
17:05:01 [ivan]: zakim, mute me
17:05:02 [Zakim]: Ivan should now be muted
17:05:17 [IanH]: PROPOSED: accept previous minutes http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/meeting/2008-06-25
17:05:20 [msmith]: +1 to accept 2008-06-25 minutes
17:05:23 [Rinke]: +1
17:05:26 [calvanese]: +1
17:05:26 [MartinD]: +1
17:05:27 [ivan]: +1
17:05:28 [ewallace]: +1
17:05:30 [IanH]: +1
17:05:34 [Zakim]: +JeffP
17:05:48 [ewallace]: RESOLVED: accept previous minutes http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/meeting/2008-06-25
17:05:49 [JeffP]: +1
17:06:20 [ewallace]: Topic: Action Items status
17:06:22 [IanH]: q?
17:07:01 [IanH]: q?
17:07:07 [ewallace]: Act 163 completed
17:07:29 [bijan]: Done and closed
17:07:42 [bijan]: No
17:07:50 [bijan]: zakim, unmute me
17:07:50 [Zakim]: bijan should no longer be muted
17:07:54 [IanH]: q?
17:07:55 [ewallace]: Topic: Action 156
17:08:29 [IanH]: q?
17:08:42 [msmith]: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Annotation_System
17:08:50 [ivan]: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Annotation_System#Simple_Syntax_Example
17:08:51 [ewallace]: Action 156 done
17:08:51 [trackbot]: Sorry, couldn't find user - 156
17:09:07 [ewallace]: s/156/42/
17:09:20 [ewallace]: topic: Action 156
17:09:25 [ewallace]: continued
17:09:46 [ewallace]: topic: action 157
17:10:03 [ewallace]: continued
17:10:03 [bijan]: zakim, mute me
17:10:03 [Zakim]: bijan should now be muted
17:10:06 [IanH]: q?
17:10:34 [ewallace]: topic: action 158
17:10:42 [ewallace]: done and closed
17:10:54 [m_schnei]: q+
17:11:02 [ewallace]: action 159 continued
17:11:02 [trackbot]: Sorry, couldn't find user - 159
17:11:10 [calvanese]: zakim, unmute me
17:11:11 [Zakim]: calvanese should no longer be muted
17:11:13 [bijan]: He is
17:11:14 [IanH]: q?
17:11:17 [ewallace]: action 161 continued
17:11:17 [trackbot]: Sorry, couldn't find user - 161
17:11:34 [IanH]: q?
17:11:48 [ewallace]: topic: action 161
17:11:57 [bmotik]: OK, I'll just add it right away.
17:12:04 [IanH]: q?
17:12:24 [JeffP]: q?
17:12:44 [JeffP]: q+
17:12:47 [ewallace]: Diego will write up what his investigation revealed
17:12:59 [bijan]: Subject lin contains ACTION-Number
17:13:10 [IanH]: q?
17:13:14 [m_schnei]: zakim, unmute me
17:13:14 [Zakim]: m_schnei should no longer be muted
17:14:36 [ewallace]: topic: 159
17:14:37 [m_schnei]: i step back from 159
17:14:43 [m_schnei]: zakim, mute me
17:14:43 [Zakim]: m_schnei should now be muted
17:14:44 [IanH]: q?
17:14:52 [IanH]: ack m_schnei
17:15:01 [ewallace]: jeffP: cmt on inconsistancy
17:15:01 [IanH]: ack JeffP
17:15:04 [IanH]: q?
17:15:32 [bcuencagrau]: you need the data to have the inconsistency
17:15:42 [IanH]: q?
17:16:03 [ewallace]: topic: action 165
17:16:06 [IanH]: q?
17:16:15 [bmotik]: q+
17:16:20 [m_schnei]: zakim, mute me
17:16:20 [Zakim]: m_schnei should now be muted
17:16:30 [ewallace]: Diego: Easy keys are compatible with key notion in DL-Lite
17:16:33 [bmotik]: -q
17:16:48 [bmotik]: q+
17:16:54 [ewallace]: Diego: we need to restict these keys in the same way
17:16:58 [IanH]: q?
17:17:01 [Zhe]: Zhe has joined #owl
17:17:11 [ewallace]: Diego: the keys cannot be subtyped
17:17:16 [bmotik]: Zakim, unmute me
17:17:16 [Zakim]: bmotik should no longer be muted
17:17:28 [Zakim]: +Zhe
17:17:35 [Zhe]: Zakim, mute me
17:17:35 [Zakim]: Zhe should now be muted
17:17:36 [IanH]: q?
17:17:43 [IanH]: ack bmotik
17:17:46 [IanH]: q?
17:17:53 [ewallace]: diego to write up how easy-keys could be used in DL-lite
17:17:55 [msmith]: q+
17:18:01 [Zakim]: -Sandro
17:18:02 [IanH]: q?
17:18:03 [Zakim]: +Sandro
17:18:23 [IanH]: q?
17:18:29 [IanH]: ack msmith
17:18:53 [ewallace]: msmith: asked if we described unique names assumption in the profile document
17:18:57 [msmith]: I see, I didn't realize this had changed
17:19:14 [IanH]: q?
17:19:21 [ewallace]: Boris: it is described
17:19:38 [ewallace]: topic: action 164
17:19:39 [calvanese]: zakim, mute me
17:19:39 [Zakim]: calvanese should now be muted
17:19:43 [IanH]: q?
17:19:47 [ewallace]: done
17:19:53 [ewallace]: topic: Issues
17:20:42 [alanr_]: could we get a review of what the issue was?
17:20:42 [ewallace]: Issue 16
17:20:49 [IanH]: q?
17:21:00 [bmotik]: +q
17:21:10 [IanH]: q?
17:21:15 [IanH]: ack bmotik
17:21:17 [bijan]: Peter's not here, and he's the issue raiser?
17:21:41 [ewallace]: IanH: the issue was - could you annotate annotations?
17:22:32 [ewallace]: boris: problem - you can annotate entities and axioms, but not annotations
17:23:07 [ewallace]: ... peter proposed that annotations could contain a set of other annotations
17:24:17 [IanH]: q?
17:24:35 [ewallace]: boris: having an axiom that contains another axiom is hard in RDF
17:24:46 [alanr_]: q+
17:24:57 [IanH]: q?
17:25:04 [ewallace]: ... my proposal is to can the issue because both proposed solutions are quite hard
17:25:24 [ewallace]: alanr: I wonder if the question might go away with rich annotations
17:25:45 [bmotik]: +q
17:25:48 [IanH]: q?
17:25:54 [IanH]: ack alanr_
17:25:55 [ivan]: ack alanr_
17:26:01 [ewallace]: ... there are motivating use cases for this
17:26:09 [bijan]: q+
17:26:27 [bijan]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data:_URI_scheme
17:26:29 [bijan]: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Reification_Alternatives
17:26:41 [ewallace]: ... how is the reification in one of the proposed solutions harder than where we have done this elsewhere
17:26:49 [IanH]: q?
17:26:56 [IanH]: ack bmotik
17:26:58 [bijan]: zakim, unmute me
17:26:58 [Zakim]: bijan should no longer be muted
17:27:07 [IanH]: ack bijan
17:28:00 [alanr_]: Mcdermott was convincing to me....
17:28:13 [alanr_]: one + level of indirection
17:28:40 [alanr_]: q?
17:28:43 [alanr_]: q+
17:29:31 [ewallace]: bijan: may need to recommend how to construct annotations for meta-annotations
17:29:55 [ewallace]: bijan: set up your structure of annotations so that you always reify in a nice way
17:29:59 [IanH]: q?
17:30:05 [ewallace]: ... we could work out the pattern for this
17:30:06 [bijan]: zakim, mute me
17:30:06 [Zakim]: bijan should now be muted
17:30:39 [ewallace]: alan: the idea of structuring annotations works for new annotation but not for old rdf annotations
17:30:41 [IanH]: q?
17:30:46 [ivan]: ack alanr_
17:30:47 [bijan]: data: uris could solve this
17:30:51 [bijan]: But they are ugly
17:30:57 [bijan]: Literals as well
17:31:40 [ewallace]: ianH: are annotations inside annotations asserted in the KB?
17:31:54 [m_schnei]: q+
17:31:57 [m_schnei]: q-
17:32:01 [bmotik]: q+
17:32:19 [IanH]: q?
17:32:24 [IanH]: ack bmotik
17:32:44 [bijan]: q+
17:32:45 [ewallace]: boris: the problem is that there is no way in rdf to say this axiom contains an axiom
17:33:04 [ewallace]: ... as soon as its in a bag of triples in rdf it is asserted
17:33:43 [bijan]: there's a queue!
17:33:45 [ewallace]: ... can't tell after whether the triple occured at the top level or inside another triple
17:34:17 [m_schnei]: q+
17:34:50 [IanH]: q?
17:34:57 [m_schnei]: q-
17:34:59 [ewallace]: alan: I'd be happy to work through the example with Boris over email
17:35:05 [bijan]: ack me
17:35:15 [alanr_]: Note: I will have to leave at 2pm.
17:35:44 [ewallace]: bijan: this problem of not having syntactic context is something I considered
17:35:45 [IanH]: q?
17:36:17 [ewallace]: ... people who are tracking this should look at the reification table
17:36:33 [bijan]: zakim, mute me
17:36:33 [Zakim]: bijan should now be muted
17:37:30 [ewallace]: skipping 67
17:37:42 [ewallace]: issue 126
17:37:54 [ewallace]: topic: issue 126
17:38:03 [IanH]: q?
17:38:07 [alanr_]: q+
17:38:18 [IanH]: ack alanr_
17:38:35 [ewallace]: alan: it seemed like there was clear consensus on an underlying Real datatype
17:38:41 [msmith]: q+ to disagree on type promotion
17:38:52 [IanH]: q?
17:38:56 [ewallace]: ... and floating point is promoted to this for reasoning
17:39:16 [bijan]: +1 to disagree with type promotion
17:39:25 [bmotik]: +q
17:39:35 [ewallace]: ... there was a question on whether or not non-numeric values of float like +inf were also promoted
17:39:40 [ivan]: ack msmith
17:39:40 [Zakim]: msmith, you wanted to disagree on type promotion
17:40:14 [ewallace]: msmith: I agree we want an underlying real datatype, but disagree promoting xsd: float
17:40:15 [alanr_]: is it clear what "promotion" means? Perhaps Boris should explain.
17:40:15 [bijan]: I also thing Reals shouldn't have NaN. Those aren't reals! Why make a clean datatype and then crude it up!
17:40:38 [alanr_]: the argument is that floats are there to represent machine computations.
17:40:39 [ewallace]: ... don't understand the point of having both xsd:float and xsd:decimal
17:41:02 [IanH]: q?
17:41:03 [alanr_]: This is an important use case for Science Commons
17:41:04 [alanr_]: 1+
17:41:08 [alanr_]: q+
17:41:10 [alanr_]: not 1+
17:41:15 [IanH]: q?
17:41:16 [MartinD]: +1
17:41:23 [IanH]: ack bmotik
17:41:42 [ewallace]: boris: promotion means to restrict float values
17:42:06 [ewallace]: boris: I'm pretty happy with ditching float and double, but this will look bad
17:42:12 [bijan]: "Ditching"? Isn't it that we "aren't adding"
17:42:15 [bijan]: q+
17:42:23 [ewallace]: boris: you might want to store these in an efficient way
17:42:50 [bijan]: Floats aren't continuous
17:42:52 [Carsten]: +1000
17:42:55 [bijan]: I'm confused
17:43:02 [IanH]: q?
17:43:14 [bijan]: ?
17:43:17 [ewallace]: boris: I would bet if we keep the continuous aspects of float, then now implementation will be correct
17:43:20 [bijan]: It's arbitrary sized decimals
17:43:34 [MarkusK]: yes, I also think that xsd:decimal supports no exponent notation
17:44:01 [bijan]: It can't !
17:44:13 [IanH]: q?
17:44:13 [bijan]: There's too much here
17:44:16 [alanr_]: http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/#decimal
17:44:20 [bijan]: Can we chunk the discussion a littl
17:44:41 [IanH]: q?
17:44:52 [ewallace]: boris: a possible way out is to define an owl:float and owl:real
17:45:13 [IanH]: q?
17:45:15 [bijan]: http://www.java2s.com/Code/Oracle/Data-Type/IS-NAN.htm
17:45:28 [ewallace]: alan: wrt continuous aspect:
17:45:33 [MarkusK]: (for the minutes) xsd:float also has non-numerical numbers, NaN and infinite
17:45:39 [bijan]: zakim, unmute me
17:45:39 [Zakim]: bijan should no longer be muted
17:45:55 [MarkusK]: s /numbers/values/
17:46:17 [bijan]: zakim, mute me
17:46:17 [Zakim]: bijan should now be muted
17:46:46 [IanH]: q?
17:46:54 [IanH]: ack alanr_
17:47:08 [ewallace]: alan: effect on floats, the only consequence to considering them real would be
17:47:26 [ewallace]: ...
17:47:46 [ewallace]: alan: asked some folk, they would prefer real
17:47:53 [m_schnei]: (for the minutes, too) IEEE floats also have +/- 0, do xsd:float have too?
17:48:04 [bmotik]: q+
17:48:05 [ewallace]: alan: also asked about +-inf and NaN
17:48:18 [ewallace]: alan: they considered these to be essential
17:48:46 [bijan]: zakim, unmute me
17:48:46 [Zakim]: bijan should no longer be muted
17:48:47 [IanH]: q?
17:48:57 [ewallace]: alan: the objective is to be able to transmit and contain numeric data in an OWL file
17:49:18 [ewallace]: bijan: the first step I have is if we are going to talk about something with a binary rep.
17:49:50 [ewallace]: bijan: we can't avoid rounding, we can't separate the value space from the representation
17:49:53 [alanr_]: OWL does not produce new floats in the course of reasoning.
17:50:11 [alanr_]: q+
17:50:40 [ewallace]: ianH: it seems to me that we are proposing in owl to have a virtual float that is continuous
17:50:59 [alanr_]: So precision issues are external to OWL - OWL would not disturb any precision or do any rounding.
17:51:01 [IanH]: ack bijan
17:51:09 [ewallace]: bijan: so you are just treating the float rep as an idiosyncratic rep of reals
17:51:30 [IanH]: q?
17:51:31 [ewallace]: boris: the value space is the set of real numbers between the min and max of float
17:51:36 [IanH]: ack bmotik
17:52:21 [alanr_]: q-
17:52:23 [Carsten]: q+
17:52:30 [alanr_]: Ian asked my question
17:52:35 [IanH]: q?
17:53:12 [alanr_]: 2.0 float is not considered different than int float
17:53:45 [IanH]: q?
17:53:46 [Carsten]: zakim, unmute me
17:53:46 [Zakim]: Carsten should no longer be muted
17:53:52 [bmotik]: q+
17:54:02 [ewallace]: carsten: I like this proposal
17:54:04 [IanH]: ack Carsten
17:54:24 [ewallace]: ... either dropping float completely, or treating them as reals for reasoning
17:54:51 [alanr_]: no float predicate, I think.
17:54:54 [bijan]: zakim, unmute me
17:54:54 [Zakim]: bijan was not muted, bijan
17:54:57 [IanH]: q?
17:55:06 [IanH]: ack bmotik
17:55:14 [ewallace]: boris: floats are a subset of reals
17:55:49 [ewallace]: carsten: treat float as a property of a real number?
17:55:54 [bijan]: q+
17:55:58 [IanH]: q?
17:56:04 [msmith]: q+ to ask about the benefit of this proposal
17:56:13 [ewallace]: boris: the reason for doing this is so that you can ship data around as reals
17:56:22 [Carsten]: perfect
17:56:27 [Carsten]: zakim, mute me
17:56:27 [Zakim]: Carsten should now be muted
17:56:28 [IanH]: q?
17:56:28 [alanr_]: consider: oracle than answers between a and b, how many values. For float we decide to answer: Infinity , always
17:56:29 [bijan]: One question at a time!
17:56:32 [bijan]: Please!@
17:56:35 [m_schnei]: q-
17:56:43 [alanr_]: q+ to mention nan as data bottom
17:56:46 [bijan]: I wanted to respond to the carsten questiona nd now we're off track
17:56:54 [bijan]: zakim, unmute me
17:56:54 [Zakim]: bijan was not muted, bijan
17:56:57 [ewallace]: boris: if you have something like 1 / 0 then the ontology is unsatisfiable
17:57:09 [alanr_]: q?
17:57:09 [IanH]: q?
17:57:17 [IanH]: q?
17:57:21 [IanH]: q?
17:59:01 [IanH]: q?
17:59:06 [IanH]: ack bijan
17:59:13 [ewallace]: bijan: there are 3 options for the predicate thing
17:59:38 [alanr_]: comment: Lexical float doesn't work - because of defined rounding.
17:59:42 [ewallace]: ... no predicate
18:00:18 [IanH]: q?
18:00:59 [bmotik]: q+
18:01:04 [IanH]: q?
18:02:31 [ewallace]: alan: we want to capture the result of an experiment and that may include NaN values
18:02:40 [IanH]: q?
18:02:55 [Zakim]: -alanr
18:02:59 [IanH]: ack alanr_
18:02:59 [Zakim]: alanr_, you wanted to mention nan as data bottom
18:03:03 [ewallace]: ... they don't care about how many discrete values between here and there
18:03:04 [IanH]: q?
18:03:27 [bijan]: the �value space�s of all �primitive� datatypes are disjoint (they do not share any values)
18:03:32 [ewallace]: msmith: people using XSD already make the choice between xsd:float and xsd:decimal
18:03:36 [bijan]: http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/#rf-fund-facets
18:03:43 [IanH]: q?
18:03:50 [bijan]: (double and decimal are primitive datatypes in xsd)
18:03:56 [IanH]: q?
18:03:59 [ewallace]: ... given the fact that they chose xsd:float, we ought to respect the choice
18:04:00 [IanH]: ack msmith
18:04:00 [Zakim]: msmith, you wanted to ask about the benefit of this proposal
18:04:07 [IanH]: ack bmotik
18:04:10 [IanH]: q?
18:04:22 [bijan]: q+ to point to 4.2
18:04:38 [bijan]: zakim, unmute me
18:04:38 [Zakim]: bijan was not muted, bijan
18:04:44 [ewallace]: boris: the reason that float is not put under decimal in xsd may be because of the 3 special values
18:04:59 [IanH]: q?
18:05:12 [IanH]: ack bijan
18:05:12 [Zakim]: bijan, you wanted to point to 4.2
18:05:19 [JeffP]: the spec is somehow inconsistent
18:05:19 [msmith]: http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/#equal
18:05:38 [alanr]: alanr has joined #owl
18:06:07 [ewallace]: bijan: the spec says the value spaces of float and decimal are disjoint
18:06:44 [alanr]: Does it actually say they are disjoint, or does it not say they have a shared value space (negation or naf)
18:06:54 [msmith]: it says disjoint
18:06:57 [ewallace]: topic: Issue 131
18:07:07 [Zhe]: yes
18:07:18 [Zhe]: let boris go first
18:07:27 [IanH]: q?
18:07:38 [Zhe]: zakim, unmute me
18:07:38 [Zakim]: Zhe should no longer be muted
18:07:49 [IanH]: q?
18:07:52 [ewallace]: boris: problem with OWL R profile is OWL R full version is not a syntactic fragment
18:08:43 [ewallace]: the idea is to have basically 1 OWL R profile
18:08:58 [IanH]: q?
18:09:12 [m_schnei]: q+
18:09:16 [Zhe]: q+
18:09:18 [ewallace]: boris: if the ontology is written in triples it is in OWL R if it is parseable as OWL R
18:09:37 [IanH]: q?
18:09:46 [IanH]: ack Zhe
18:10:00 [ewallace]: Zhe: Yes. I do agree with Boris on this. It seems a bit odd to have these two versions.
18:10:14 [m_schnei]: zakim, unmute me
18:10:14 [Zakim]: m_schnei should no longer be muted
18:10:17 [ewallace]: ... I see the value of combining the syntactic restriction into the profile
18:10:51 [ewallace]: m_schei: regarding confusion - it is not confusing from an rdf point of view because
18:11:03 [bmotik]: +q
18:11:04 [ewallace]: ... any sublanguage is a semantic sublanguage
18:11:09 [bijan]: q+ to talk about user perspective
18:11:14 [IanH]: q?
18:11:16 [m_schnei]: zakim, mute me
18:11:16 [Zakim]: m_schnei should now be muted
18:11:17 [ewallace]: ... I don't share the argument.
18:11:26 [IanH]: ack m_schnei
18:11:36 [ewallace]: boris: I think what is confusing is from an ontology point of view.
18:11:37 [bcuencagrau]: +q
18:11:57 [ewallace]: ... you don't know what it means. You can't interpret it in an unambiguous way.
18:12:08 [bijan]: ack me
18:12:08 [Zakim]: bijan, you wanted to talk about user perspective
18:12:17 [bijan]: I'm still on the queue!
18:12:20 [bijan]: No no!
18:12:25 [ewallace]: ... what is the point also from a user's perspective, when the meaning is ill-defined.
18:12:57 [ewallace]: bijan: In my experience users find the semantic subsetting confusing.
18:13:16 [IanH]: q?
18:13:20 [bcuencagrau]: zakim, unmute me
18:13:20 [Zakim]: bcuencagrau should no longer be muted
18:13:20 [bijan]: zakim, mute me
18:13:21 [Zakim]: bijan should now be muted
18:13:22 [bmotik]: q-
18:13:26 [ewallace]: ... In our spec.s, all the other profiles are syntactic subsets
18:13:30 [IanH]: q?
18:13:41 [IanH]: ack bcuencagrau
18:13:50 [ewallace]: bernardo: I totally agree with Bijan on this. The purpose of OWL R is to define a language
18:14:04 [IanH]: q?
18:14:11 [ewallace]: ... that is easily implementable using production rules.
18:14:22 [IanH]: q?
18:14:35 [ewallace]: ... What people real care about is this ability to implement the reasoning using a rule engine.
18:14:36 [bcuencagrau]: zakim, unmute me
18:14:36 [Zakim]: bcuencagrau was not muted, bcuencagrau
18:14:40 [bcuencagrau]: zakim, mute me
18:14:40 [Zakim]: bcuencagrau should now be muted
18:14:53 [m_schnei]: zakim, unmute me
18:14:53 [Zakim]: m_schnei was not muted, m_schnei
18:14:54 [bijan]: Yes
18:14:57 [JeffP]: y
18:15:24 [ewallace]: IanH: to M_schnei - what if they use some rdfs syntax and no rdfs interpretation is made
18:15:34 [ewallace]: ... wouldn't the user be surprised?
18:15:38 [bijan]: q+
18:15:42 [Rinke]: +q to ask about relation with DLP
18:15:49 [IanH]: q?
18:15:52 [bmotik]: q+
18:16:26 [IanH]: q?
18:16:37 [ewallace]: m_schei: you would restrict the reasoning to rdf in a tool like Jena, you would be explicitly aware of this
18:17:05 [ewallace]: m_schei: run the reasoning and see what inference graph is produced
18:17:18 [IanH]: q?
18:17:24 [m_schnei]: zakim, mute me
18:17:24 [Zakim]: m_schnei should now be muted
18:17:26 [Zhe]: q+
18:17:26 [ewallace]: ... you of course have to know which reasoner you are using
18:17:36 [ivan]: ack bijan
18:18:23 [ewallace]: Bijan: you will still be able to do the RDF style reasoning
18:18:49 [IanH]: q?
18:18:59 [ivan]: ack Rinke
18:18:59 [Zakim]: Rinke, you wanted to ask about relation with DLP
18:19:06 [ewallace]: ... In OWLland people are used to having certain syntax indicate the reasoning features in the interpretation
18:19:30 [bijan]: (DLP and hornSHIQ are also syntactic fragments)
18:19:34 [ewallace]: rinke: when we started we had dlp, and horn-shiq and others
18:19:47 [IanH]: q?
18:20:00 [ivan]: ack bmotik
18:20:08 [ewallace]: ... How will this impact people who use DLP like stuff
18:20:17 [m_schnei]: Motivation for OWL R was RDFS 3.0 / OWL-Prime
18:20:30 [ewallace]: boris: Horn-SHIQ was dropped because there were too many fragments
18:20:37 [bijan]: And a champion in the working group :)
18:20:48 [ewallace]: ... we just kept those that had larger user bases
18:21:04 [m_schnei]: All the fragments in the beginning were *DL* fragments --> HENCE syntactic fragments
18:21:34 [bijan]: All the fragments in the beginning were *OWL* fragments --> HENCE syntactic fragments
18:21:39 [ewallace]: Boris: what remains is OWL R. You can still use production rules or other similar tools for it.
18:21:59 [bijan]: OWL lite is a syntactic fragment of OWL DL which is a syntactic fragment of OWL Full
18:22:02 [IanH]: q?
18:22:04 [m_schnei]: Full fragements are always semantic fragments, they are always applyable on every RDF graph
18:22:04 [ivan]: ack Zhe
18:22:14 [ewallace]: Boris: We are just saying there is a syntactic check that can indicate which profile is being used.
18:22:43 [bijan]: OWL DL and OWL Lite *are* fragments of full. What you say is false. And I'll stop the back chat ;)
18:22:44 [ewallace]: Zhe: Oracle is planning to support this profile in the future and it is probable that we
18:22:51 [IanH]: q?
18:22:52 [ivan]: q+
18:23:00 [ivan]: ack ivan
18:23:06 [ewallace]: ... will include the capability to bypass the syntax check.
18:23:27 [bmotik]: q+
18:23:28 [IanH]: q?
18:23:29 [ewallace]: ivan: what I would like to understand is if we go with Boris' proposal and I'm in RDFland
18:24:01 [ewallace]: IanH: I guess you lose the ability to consider some graphs as OWL R.
18:24:04 [bijan]: q+
18:24:29 [IanH]: q?
18:24:31 [ewallace]: IanH: Like if you include SomeValuesFrom constructs.
18:24:43 [IanH]: ack bmotik
18:25:04 [ewallace]: Boris: you don't lose anything. The rules will work exactly as they are. You don't lose any
18:25:19 [IanH]: q?
18:25:21 [Zhe]: q+
18:25:55 [ewallace]: ... expressive power. The syntax forbidden doesn't have rules for the corresponding reasoning.
18:26:04 [IanH]: q?
18:26:10 [IanH]: ack bijan
18:26:22 [ewallace]: bijan: in a way the fragment is saying these are the things we know how to do something interesting with.
18:27:08 [m_schnei]: what is with the RDFS axiomatic triples?
18:27:09 [bcuencagrau]: +q
18:27:14 [IanH]: q?
18:27:18 [ivan]: ack Zhe
18:27:21 [Zhe]: zakim, unmute me
18:27:21 [Zakim]: Zhe was not muted, Zhe
18:27:22 [bcuencagrau]: zakim, unmute me
18:27:23 [Zakim]: bcuencagrau should no longer be muted
18:27:26 [ewallace]: Zhe: to Ivan's point, expressivity is not lost. Just some ontologies will be rejected, if syntactic checking is on.
18:27:27 [ivan]: ack bcuencagrau
18:27:50 [ewallace]: bernardo: we have an additional benefit from specifying this as a syntactic fragment
18:28:25 [bcuencagrau]: zakim, mute me
18:28:25 [Zakim]: bcuencagrau should now be muted
18:28:26 [ewallace]: ... you can know if you are in the fragment, and that is a desirable feature.
18:29:03 [ivan]: bye
18:29:07 [Rinke]: bye
18:29:07 [JeffP]: bye
18:29:08 [Zhe]: thanks
18:29:09 [MarkusK]: bye
18:29:11 [ratnesh]: bye
18:29:13 [Zakim]: -Ivan
18:29:15 [bijan]: Yay to evan!
18:29:15 [m_schnei]: bye
18:29:17 [Zakim]: -Carsten
18:29:18 [Zakim]: -JeffP
18:29:18 [Carsten]: bye
18:29:19 [Zakim]: -bcuencagrau
18:29:19 [Zakim]: -msmith
18:29:20 [Zakim]: -bmotik
18:29:21 [Zakim]: -baojie
18:29:23 [Zakim]: -MarkusK
18:29:25 [Zakim]: -ratnesh
18:29:25 [ewallace]: rrsagent, draft minutes
18:29:25 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/02-owl-minutes.html ewallace
18:29:27 [Zakim]: -MartinD
18:29:29 [Zakim]: -bijan
18:29:31 [Zakim]: -Rinke
18:29:33 [Zakim]: -Zhe
18:29:35 [Zakim]: -IanH
18:29:37 [Zakim]: -calvanese
18:29:39 [Zakim]: -Sandro
18:29:41 [Zakim]: -m_schnei
18:29:43 [IanH]: rssagent, make minutes public
18:29:43 [ewallace]: rrsagent, make log world-readable
18:29:50 [MartinD]: MartinD has left #OWL
18:29:56 [ewallace]: rrsagent, make log public
18:30:02 [IanH]: Is that the right syntax?
18:30:08 [IanH]: OK -- got it now I think
18:30:22 [IanH]: I can *never* remember this stuff!
18:30:31 [IanH]: OK -- and thanks again.
18:30:51 [IanH]: I'll have to get one
18:30:55 [Zakim]: -Evan_Wallace
18:30:56 [Zakim]: SW_OWL()12:00PM has ended
18:30:57 [Zakim]: Attendees were bijan, +31.20.525.aaaa, Rinke, calvanese, Evan_Wallace, bmotik, +49.351.463.3.aabb, bcuencagrau, Carsten, IanH, baojie, ratnesh, +0190827aacc, msmith, MartinD,
18:30:59 [Zakim]: ... MarkusK, Ivan, Sandro, m_schnei, +1.617.278.aadd, alanr, JeffP, Zhe
18:31:20 [sandro]: ewallace, I'm here if you need any help with the minutes, or just have suggestion (or more bugs).
18:53:48 [msmith]: msmith has left #owl
20:56:58 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #owl