14:31:28 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #forms
14:31:28 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/07/02-forms-irc
14:31:34 <John_Boyer> rrsagent, make log public
14:31:55 <John_Boyer> Meeting: Weekly Forms WG Teleconference
14:32:05 <John_Boyer> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Jul/0006.html
14:32:11 <John_Boyer> Chair: John
14:32:36 <John_Boyer> Regrets: Leigh, Keith, Uli
14:35:05 <Charlie> Charlie has joined #forms
14:38:07 <Steven> Is Forms WG going to do an official review of the XHTML Access module?
14:38:13 <Steven> Does someone have the action item?
14:39:05 <nick> no action item yet
14:39:41 <Steven> Perhaps we can talk about it today
14:40:46 <Zakim> HTML_Forms()10:45AM has now started
14:40:53 <Zakim> +[IBM]
14:40:57 <Charlie> zakim, [IBM] is Charlie
14:40:57 <Zakim> +Charlie; got it
14:41:54 <nick> zakim, code?
14:41:54 <Zakim> the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), nick
14:42:02 <Zakim> +John_Boyer
14:42:05 <Zakim> -Charlie
14:42:07 <Zakim> +Charlie
14:42:42 <Zakim> +Nick_van_den_Bleeken
14:42:59 <ebruchez> ebruchez has joined #forms
14:43:04 <prb> prb has joined #forms
14:43:45 <prb> Zakim, code?
14:43:45 <Zakim> the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), prb
14:44:31 <Zakim> +??P12
14:44:35 <Roger> Roger has joined #forms
14:44:50 <prb> Zakim, i am ?
14:44:50 <Zakim> +prb; got it
14:45:06 <Roger> zakim, code?
14:45:06 <Zakim> the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Roger
14:46:14 <Zakim> +??P0
14:46:15 <Charlie> while we're getting setup, connect to www.webdialogs.com/join
14:46:20 <nick> nick has changed the topic to: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Jul/0006.html
14:46:21 <Charlie> meeting code 801862
14:46:22 <ebruchez> zakim, ??P0 is ebruchez
14:46:22 <Zakim> +ebruchez; got it
14:46:32 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
14:46:32 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:46:34 <Zakim> +Steven
14:46:57 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer has joined #forms
14:47:20 <Zakim> +Roger
14:47:25 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer has joined #forms
14:47:44 <Rafael> Rafael has joined #forms
14:47:57 <Roger> zakim, Roger has Rafael
14:47:57 <Zakim> +Rafael; got it
14:47:59 <Roger> sure
14:50:30 <Roger> professiona league is the key!!
14:50:45 <Charlie> www.webdialogs.com/join
14:50:50 <Charlie> meeting code 801862
14:53:38 <Steven> Scribe: Steven
14:53:50 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
14:53:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/02-forms-minutes.html Steven
14:54:03 <nick> zakim, mute me
14:54:03 <Zakim> Nick_van_den_Bleeken should now be muted
14:54:29 <Steven> Topic: Demo
14:54:43 <Roger> zakim, mute me
14:54:43 <Zakim> Roger should now be muted
14:54:48 <Steven> John: We have a Flickr demo using Ubiquity
14:54:48 <markbirbeck> zakim, code?
14:54:48 <Zakim> the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
14:55:03 <Steven> ... more a demo of the usefulness of modularization
14:55:25 <Zakim> + +0208761aaaa
14:55:35 <Steven> Charlie: This is thanks to Mark and Paul
14:55:36 <markbirbeck> zakim, i am aaaa
14:55:36 <Zakim> +markbirbeck; got it
14:55:49 <markbirbeck> zakim, mute me
14:55:49 <Zakim> markbirbeck should now be muted
14:56:53 <Steven> [demo of Flickr thumbnail picker]
14:57:19 <Steven> [Uses XForms model store]
14:57:53 <Steven> Charlie: Whether we use Flickr or any other service is generalized out in the model
14:58:33 <Steven> Charlie: This example only uses the model, but there is no data binding
14:59:17 <Steven> Charlie: So this is all declarative, instead of writing a new script object
14:59:52 <Steven> ... it is done using Dojo, but you can put it on top of Scriptaculous or any other framework
15:00:31 <Steven> ... like YUI
15:00:45 <Steven> John: This is one of the advantages
15:01:15 <Steven> Charlie: It changes the world view for the script author
15:01:36 <Steven> Charlie: Next we want to use model-view binding to control the interface
15:02:21 <Steven> John: Also cool is that the markup can switch to a different service, like Picasa
15:02:38 <Steven> Charlie: Same code, just different arguments to the API in the model
15:03:45 <Steven> Charlie: Can we check these in in the Ubiquity space?
15:03:45 <markbirbeck> definitely...
15:04:05 <markbirbeck> Probably in '_samples'.
15:04:25 <Charlie> ok, great
15:04:27 <markbirbeck> zakim, unmute me
15:04:27 <Zakim> markbirbeck should no longer be muted
15:04:37 <Steven> John: Shows the advantages of the module approach - you can still do something useful
15:05:57 <Steven> Mark: There's anothere demo we could do
15:06:12 <Steven> s/anothere/another/
15:06:28 <Steven> Mark: where submission is scripted
15:06:38 <Steven> ... then the next level is to use the elements to get the same effect
15:06:44 <Steven> ... to demonstrate the layering
15:06:55 <Charlie> That's a super great idea...we'll do that
15:08:04 <Steven> Mark: Great demo
15:08:22 <markbirbeck> zakim, mute me
15:08:22 <Zakim> markbirbeck should now be muted
15:08:56 <nick> ack me
15:09:13 <Steven> Topic: Reviews for the XHTML2 WG
15:09:32 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer has joined #forms
15:09:47 <Steven> Steven: I see that Nick has action item for the Events review
15:09:52 <Steven> Nick: And sent it
15:10:01 <Steven> Steven: And John for Events
15:10:06 <Steven> John: Yes, in progress
15:10:12 <Steven> Topic: inputmode
15:10:31 <Steven> Steven: Finished by next week before I go on holiday
15:10:46 <Steven> John: Great. I'll wire it in after I get back from vacation
15:11:11 <Steven> Topic: New Modules (binding attributes)
15:11:29 <Steven> John: We'll talk about data modules this week if we can
15:11:37 <Steven> Charlie: Please, I'm out next week
15:12:00 <Steven> ... and it is something we need to get our heads round
15:12:16 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer has joined #forms
15:12:24 <nick> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/specs/XForms1.2/modules/instance/bindingAttributes/index-all.html
15:12:30 <John_Boyer> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/specs/XForms1.2/modules/instance/bindingAttributes/index-all.html
15:13:08 <Steven> John: This is about 29 pages of our spec; mostly function library
15:14:04 <markbirbeck> zakim, unmute me
15:14:04 <Zakim> markbirbeck should no longer be muted
15:14:32 <Steven> Erik: I complained about the decision to include the XPath finctions
15:14:41 <Steven> ... it seems orthogonal
15:14:47 <markbirbeck> q+
15:14:58 <Steven> John: Then you get yet another module, just for the functions
15:15:24 <nick> I find it a bit awkward too to put them in binding module, they are just added to the XPath language
15:15:34 <Steven> Mark: I agree with Erik
15:15:59 <nick> And some are incompatible with XPath 2.0
15:16:16 <Steven> ... you could imagine the function spec moving at a different rate (eg new functions being added without having t update the bidning module)
15:16:29 <Steven> s/bidning/binding/
15:16:49 <Steven> mark: And we can then give our functions to other people
15:16:56 <Steven> s/mark/Mark/
15:17:16 <Steven> ... creates a library of functions
15:17:32 <Steven> ... and then good to have these functions as an API call
15:17:37 <Steven> John: OK, easy to break up
15:18:27 <John_Boyer> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_1.2_Modularization
15:19:44 <Steven> [discussion of ordering of modules]
15:20:07 <Steven> John: Breaking out another module is fine, since it fits in the hierarchy
15:20:17 <Steven> s/ordering/hierarchy/
15:21:43 <nick> in our RNG it is
15:21:43 <nick> Single.Node.Binding.Attributes = attribute ref { XPathExpression }, attribute context { XPathExpression }?
15:21:43 <nick> Nodeset.Binding.Attributes = attribute nodeset { XPathExpression }, attribute context { XPathExpression }?
15:22:19 <Steven> John: Does thios doc match your expectation of a module?
15:22:27 <markbirbeck> http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-role/#docconf
15:22:27 <Steven> Steven: I only miss the overview at the beginning
15:22:42 <Steven> John: How do you do that with a module that only adds attributes?
15:22:54 <Steven> Steven: I'll see if I can find one
15:24:06 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/PR-xhtml-modularization-20080611/abstract_modules.html#s_xhtmlmodules
15:24:38 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/PR-xhtml-modularization-20080611/abstract_modules.html#s_imapmodule
15:24:39 <markbirbeck> http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-access/
15:24:54 <nick> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/PR-xhtml-modularization-20080611/abstract_modules.html#s_common_collection
15:25:16 <nick> 'Collection Name' and 'Attributes in Collection' no element 
15:26:52 <Steven> John: I need advice on writing schemas for modules
15:27:08 <Steven> ... especially when the module only has attributes
15:27:47 <Steven> Mark: Shane is doing a relax implementation of modularization at the moment
15:27:57 <Steven> ... and W3C is talking modularization more generally
15:28:01 <Steven> ... so there is no hurry
15:28:16 <nick> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Jul/0004.html
15:28:26 <Steven> John: What is this discussion on modularization in W3C?
15:28:43 <Steven> Mark: Oh wait, I'm mixing up two things
15:29:27 <Steven> Mark: Oh no, wait, it is about ndvl
15:31:02 <Steven> Steven: It is a team internal discussion, not W3C wide
15:31:03 <nick> http://relaxng.org/
15:31:09 <nick> http://relaxng.org/spec-20011203.html
15:31:13 <Steven> ... maybe the validator supporting Relax
15:31:13 <John_Boyer> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/specs/XForms1.2/modules/instance/bindingAttributes/index-all.html
15:31:35 <Steven> John: The doc supports two attrivute groups
15:32:18 <Steven> ... so should the table list these two?
15:32:28 <Steven> Steven: Yes, like in http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/PR-xhtml-modularization-20080611/abstract_modules.html#s_common_collection
15:32:38 <Steven> s/attriv/attrib/
15:32:53 <Steven> John: Yes, and I could make the attributes clickable
15:32:56 <Steven> Steven: Good idea
15:33:17 <Steven> John: I talk about binding, and I cleaned the spec up a bit
15:33:25 <Steven> ... adding terms to the glossary
15:34:20 <Steven> ... look at Evaluation Context in XForms 1.1
15:34:29 <Steven> ... I have broken those things apart
15:34:34 <Steven> and referred to them as objects
15:34:39 <Steven> ... to make them reusable
15:34:50 <Steven> s/and/... and/
15:34:58 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
15:34:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/02-forms-minutes.html Steven
15:36:45 <Steven> John: Are the examples of adding attributes to a collection?
15:37:46 <nick> Single.Node.Binding.Attributes |= attribute bind { xsd:IDREF } | (attribute model { xsd:IDREF }?, attribute ref { XPathExpression }, attribute context { XPathExpression }?)
15:37:46 <nick> Nodeset.Binding.Attributes |= attribute bind { xsd:IDREF } | (attribute model { xsd:IDREF }?, attribute nodeset { XPathExpression }, attribute context { XPathExpression}?)
15:37:53 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/PR-xhtml-modularization-20080611/abstract_modules.html#s_editmodule
15:37:54 <nick> in RNG ;)
15:38:05 <John_Boyer> Nick, nice :-)
15:38:47 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/PR-xhtml-modularization-20080611/abstract_modules.html#s_bdomodule
15:39:02 <Steven> Steven: Just done in prose by the overview
15:39:26 <Steven> John: What did we decide about using RNG in the spec?
15:39:52 <Steven> ... well let's go with that
15:41:23 <Steven> John: When we add stuff to a collection, so we respecify the collection
15:41:27 <Steven> Steven: No
15:41:38 <Steven> Nick: Though there are some sticky cases
15:42:12 <Steven> ... @context is not allowed on bind for instance
15:42:39 <Steven> John: When we exclude attributes (eg bind doesn't take @model)
15:43:10 <Steven> ... we will add the attributes to the group, but then exclude them when used
15:43:44 <Steven> John: Uli had the action to universally apply @action
15:43:53 <Steven> ... but that is no longer needed
15:44:46 <Steven> John: M12N is quite challenging, because there is wording we use now that we can't use any more
15:46:07 <Steven> ... I have added notes to the wiki when that sort of factorization kicks in to remind the module writer to include other things that have been moved
15:46:57 <Steven> ... we have to decide what @model on bind would mean
15:47:33 <Steven> Steven: We could have two or more groups of attributes if we wanted
15:49:19 <Steven> John: Yes, but we have to ensure that the changes end up to have the same effect as now, even though they are spread over idfferent places
15:49:30 <Steven> s/idff/diff/
15:49:44 <Steven> Nick: Yes, I noticed this; it involves lots of rewriting
15:50:13 <Steven> ACTION: jboyer to split off XPath functions module from binding module
15:50:13 <trackbot> Created ACTION-475 - Split off XPath functions module from binding module [on John Boyer - due 2008-07-09].
15:50:35 <Steven> ACTION: jboyer to provide a better overview for the binding attributes module
15:50:35 <trackbot> Created ACTION-476 - Provide a better overview for the binding attributes module [on John Boyer - due 2008-07-09].
15:51:00 <nick> yes probably a table with columns  'Collection Name'  and 'Attributes in Collection'
15:51:03 <Steven> John: Please read the new draft
15:51:28 <John_Boyer> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Jul/0001.html
15:51:41 <Steven> Topic: New Modules (Data Module)
15:52:13 <Steven> Charlie: I have cloned the spec xml tree
15:52:23 <Steven> John: Do you have CVS access yet?
15:52:26 <Steven> Charlie: No
15:52:34 <Steven> John: Please work with Steven to get it
15:53:09 <Steven> John: I'm still working on the file hierarchy
15:53:30 <Steven> ... so perhaps you should wait before starting with CVS
15:54:42 <John_Boyer> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Jul/att-0001/index-all.html
15:54:51 <Steven> Charlie: I'm not sure how to refer to other modules and so on
15:56:01 <nick> action module : Actions.Attributes, Action.Content, ActionName (event name)
15:56:01 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - module
15:56:18 <Steven> John: There are two things going on here
15:56:26 <Steven> ... exporting, and importing
15:56:57 <Steven> ... is there an example of a module doing both?
15:57:55 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/PR-xhtml-modularization-20080611/abstract_modules.html#s_bdomodule
16:00:08 <Steven> John: How do we refer to them? Bibref?
16:00:34 <Steven> ... that will be difficult because we don't have specs yet
16:01:03 <Steven> Steven: Relative references?
16:01:31 <Steven> John: What should they be named?
16:01:34 <John_Boyer> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/specs/XForms1.2/modules/instance/bindingAttributes/index-all.html
16:03:09 <nick> http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-role/
16:03:44 <Steven> John: How do we group them?
16:03:51 <Steven> ... should there be XForms in the name?
16:04:14 <Steven> ... binding attributes, or XForms binding attributes?
16:04:31 <Steven> Mark: I would prefer XForms for the branding
16:04:50 <Steven> ... but maybe better not to include to encourage adoption
16:06:17 <nick> ack me
16:06:36 <Steven> ack mark
16:06:54 <nick> q+ nick
16:07:24 <Steven> Mark: Looking at these things as a sort of API
16:08:12 <Steven> ... just becasue something fires an event, we don't need to include the events module
16:08:27 <Steven> ... the insert event should be in the insert module
16:08:54 <Steven> John: But who causes the insert event
16:08:59 <Steven> Mark: A sort of controller
16:09:21 <Steven> ... the data module needs to know things have been added and deleted
16:09:38 <Steven> John: We do allow script access to the instance data
16:09:41 <Steven> ... bad idea
16:10:07 <Steven> ... and the repeat module may not work when the mutations happen by the backdoor
16:10:53 <Steven> Mark: Charlie has shown you can do repeat-like stiff without the repeat module
16:11:06 <Steven> s/stiff/stuff/
16:11:25 <Steven> ... so that gives us some cluses about module boundaruies
16:11:25 <nick> couldn't we do it in multiple iterations, first just create the xforms specific modules and in a next iteration split up thos XForms modules?
16:11:33 <Steven> s/ruies/ries/
16:12:11 <Steven> Nick: couldn't we do it in multiple iterations, first just create the xforms specific modules and in a next iteration split up thos XForms modules?
16:12:20 <Steven> s/thos/those/
16:12:39 <Steven> Mark: Good point
16:13:40 <Steven> zakim, remind me in 2 to remind people that the time is up
16:13:40 <Zakim> ok, Steven
16:14:20 <Steven> John: So we'll have to make bibrefs to things that don't yet exist
16:14:28 <Steven> Charlie: That's a problem for me
16:15:41 <Zakim> Steven, you asked to be reminded at this time to remind people that the time is up
16:15:51 <Steven> Nick: Let's first finish the bigger XForms modules, and then do the splitting out for other purposes
16:16:34 <Steven> Maark: It might be easier to break out the low level modules first
16:16:37 <Steven> s/aa/a/
16:17:50 <Steven> John: If you have the instance module, you still need a way to put data in there
16:18:26 <Steven> ... if you use script for that, would the ability to use script be removed at higher levels?
16:19:23 <Steven> Mark: You could define insert and delete in terms of DOM mutations
16:19:33 <Steven> ... so you get the same effect
16:20:09 <Steven> ... but a basic insert module would be like an xinclude, and useful in itself
16:20:30 <Steven> John: But that makes our insert and delete events useless
16:22:05 <Roger> bye
16:22:06 <Zakim> -Nick_van_den_Bleeken
16:22:07 <Zakim> -Steven
16:22:08 <Zakim> -markbirbeck
16:22:08 <Zakim> -Charlie
16:22:09 <Steven> [adjourn]
16:22:10 <Zakim> -prb
16:22:11 <Zakim> -Roger
16:22:12 <Zakim> -ebruchez
16:22:17 <Zakim> -John_Boyer
16:22:18 <prb> prb has left #forms
16:22:18 <Zakim> HTML_Forms()10:45AM has ended
16:22:19 <Zakim> Attendees were Charlie, John_Boyer, Nick_van_den_Bleeken, prb, ebruchez, Steven, Rafael, +0208761aaaa, markbirbeck
16:22:30 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
16:22:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/02-forms-minutes.html Steven
16:23:20 <John_Boyer> rrsagent, bye
16:23:20 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/02-forms-actions.rdf :
16:23:20 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jboyer to split off XPath functions module from binding module [1]
16:23:20 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/02-forms-irc#T15-50-13
16:23:20 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jboyer to provide a better overview for the binding attributes module [2]
16:23:20 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/02-forms-irc#T15-50-35
16:23:20 <RRSAgent> ACTION: module to Actions.Attributes, Action.Content, ActionName (event name) [3]
16:23:20 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/02-forms-irc#T15-56-01