14:46:48 RRSAgent has joined #rif 14:46:48 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/07/01-rif-irc 14:46:56 rrsagent, make minutes 14:46:56 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/01-rif-minutes.html ChrisW 14:47:04 zakim, this will be rif 14:47:04 ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 13 minutes 14:47:20 Meeting: RIF Telcon 1-Jul-2008 14:47:27 Chair: Chris Welty 14:47:48 ChrisW has changed the topic to: 1 July RIF telecon agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Jun/0224.html 14:47:53 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Jun/0224.html 14:48:06 rrsagent, make logs public 14:48:13 zakim, clear agenda 14:48:13 agenda cleared 14:48:39 agenda+ Admin 14:48:50 agenda+ Liason 14:48:56 agenda+ F2F11 14:49:00 agenda+ Action Review 14:49:10 agenda+ Publication plans 14:49:16 agenda+ PRD 14:49:22 agenda+ ISSUE-61 (casting) 14:49:26 agenda+ AOB 14:49:35 next agendum 14:49:51 zakim, next agendum 14:49:51 agendum 1 was just opened, ChrisW 14:50:59 csma has joined #rif 14:51:09 list agenda 14:59:22 zakim, who is on the call? 14:59:22 apparently SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended, sandro 14:59:24 On IRC I see csma, RRSAgent, ChrisW, sandro, Harold, trackbot, Zakim 14:59:48 SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started 14:59:50 +??P6 15:00:14 zakim, ??P6 is me 15:00:14 +csma; got it 15:00:48 +Sandro 15:00:50 -Sandro 15:00:50 +Sandro 15:00:51 josb has joined #rif 15:00:56 + +39.047.101.aaaa 15:01:27 mdean has joined #rif 15:02:06 StellaMitchell has joined #rif 15:02:10 +Mike_Dean 15:02:41 +[IBM] 15:02:46 zakim, ibm is temporarily me 15:02:46 +ChrisW; got it 15:03:19 AxelPolleres has joined #rif 15:03:30 +[IBM] 15:03:35 zakim, ibm is temporarily me 15:03:35 +StellaMitchell; got it 15:04:04 Axel, would you like to scribe? 15:04:14 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:04:14 On the phone I see csma, Sandro, josb, Mike_Dean, ChrisW, StellaMitchell 15:04:19 LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif 15:04:49 +LeoraMorgenstern 15:05:48 +??P43 15:06:11 :-) 15:06:23 scribe: Axel Polleres 15:06:32 scribenick: AxelPolleres 15:06:45 Harold, are you joining? 15:06:50 csma: Any agenda changes? 15:07:00 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Jun/att-0172/rif-minutes-24062008.html 15:07:01 ... no 15:07:13 PROPOSED: Accept last week's minutes 15:07:16 ... objections to accept the minutes of last week? 15:07:18 RESOLVED: Accept last week's minutes 15:07:22 ... none. accepted. 15:07:49 ChrisW: were minutes two weeks ago accepted... yes. 15:08:01 next item 15:08:14 TOPIC: Liaison 15:08:49 csma: Wehad an OMG PRR meeting last week, deadline for final report has been moved 3 months from now. 15:09:05 ... we try to delay PRR to "wait" for RIF PRD. 15:09:07 next item 15:09:20 TOPIC: F2F11 15:09:38 csma: date is fixed. 15:09:52 Sep 26-27 (Friday/Saturday) 15:10:10 ChrisW: Yes, it is: Sep 26-27. 15:10:34 csma: location: Manhattan or Boston. 15:10:41 +1 Manhattan 15:10:53 +/-0 15:10:56 s/Boston/Hawthorne/ 15:10:57 Hassan has joined #rif 15:11:18 + +33.2.72.26.aabb 15:11:41 csma and sandro discussing hotel prices in NY. 15:11:41 +Gary_Hallmark 15:12:17 ChrisW: Hotels considerably more xepensive, also transport. 15:13:45 MichaelKifer has joined #rif 15:13:48 TOPIC: Action review 15:13:57 zakim, next item 15:13:57 agendum 5. "Publication plans" taken up [from ChrisW] 15:14:05 zakim, list agenda 15:14:05 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda: 15:14:06 5. Publication plans [from ChrisW] 15:14:06 6. PRD [from ChrisW] 15:14:07 7. ISSUE-61 (casting) [from ChrisW] 15:14:07 8. AOB [from ChrisW] 15:14:10 http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/F2F11 15:14:17 zakim, take up item 4 15:14:17 agendum 4. "Action Review" taken up [from ChrisW] 15:14:25 GaryHallmark has joined #rif 15:14:44 Action 534: CONTINUED. 15:14:44 Sorry, couldn't find user - 534 15:15:27 + +1.631.833.aacc 15:15:41 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:15:41 On the phone I see csma, Sandro, josb, Mike_Dean, ChrisW, StellaMitchell, LeoraMorgenstern, AxelPolleres, Hassan (muted), Gary_Hallmark, +1.631.833.aacc 15:15:56 zakim, aacc is me 15:15:56 +MichaelKifer; got it 15:16:00 Action-530: CONTIINUED. 15:16:00 ACTION-530 Review final BLD LC draft notes added 15:16:13 zakim, mute me 15:16:13 MichaelKifer should now be muted 15:16:46 Harold, are you joining? 15:17:20 Leora: The resolutions in the documents are not always clear. 15:17:29 harold will be late 15:18:01 ... e.g. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Jun/0166.html 15:18:43 csma: references to DTB have been clarified by last weeks resolution. 15:19:03 Leora: When will BLD be frozen enough to complete the action? 15:20:58 the RDF namespace is already used for XMLLiteral 15:21:20 conan has joined #rif 15:21:24 http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/InternationalizedStringSpec 15:21:59 http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/InternationalizedString 15:22:12 +Mark_Proctor 15:22:18 ACTION-521: CONTINUED. 15:22:18 ACTION-521 Work with Jie Bao (of OWL-WG) to put together draft on rif:text/owl:internationalizedText notes added 15:22:38 q+ 15:22:53 action: sandro to work on getting access to OWL wiki for internationalized text article 15:22:53 Created ACTION-535 - Work on getting access to OWL wiki for internationalized text article [on Sandro Hawke - due 2008-07-08]. 15:23:39 josb: sandro, question about the previous item. two links on the OWL side on that side, what is the difference? 15:24:31 ACTION-517: continued. 15:24:32 ACTION-517 Review FLD [june 23] notes added 15:24:40 q- 15:24:56 ... all other review actions also continued. 15:25:15 ACTION-510: continued. 15:25:15 ACTION-510 Remove UPDATE, EXECUTE and ASSIGN from PRD notes added 15:26:51 zakim, list agenda 15:26:51 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda: 15:26:53 5. Publication plans [from ChrisW] 15:26:53 6. PRD [from ChrisW] 15:26:54 7. ISSUE-61 (casting) [from ChrisW] 15:26:54 8. AOB [from ChrisW] 15:26:57 zakim, take up item 5 15:26:57 agendum 5. "Publication plans" taken up [from ChrisW] 15:27:01 sandro: no point to talk about actions on metadata without harold and michael. 15:27:11 TOPIC: Publication plan. 15:27:15 zakim, unmute me 15:27:15 MichaelKifer should no longer be muted 15:27:45 Michael: We are still working on some aspects of PS to XML translation. 15:28:01 ... made some signnificant improvements, not yet finished. 15:28:32 csma: you can use some example from PRD, maybe. 15:28:43 q+ 15:29:11 Michael: we define a recursive function. but still have left the translation of Prefix, Base, will take only a couple of days more. 15:29:33 ... should be doable in one or two days, depends on Harold's schedule. 15:29:36 ack josb 15:30:07 AdrianP has joined #rif 15:30:42 josb: looked over the XML translation... looks good. but I thought we don't need to define translations for Base and Prefix. 15:30:59 Michael: well, they are part of the language, so we should explain it. 15:31:13 ... I don't see how we get around this. 15:31:22 +[NRCC] 15:31:35 ... we have to define the translation to entity definitions. 15:31:58 zakim, [NRCC] is me 15:31:58 +Harold; got it 15:32:07 Harold: (just joined) looked it up, it can be done. 15:32:24 csma: outr question was, when would we have it finished? 15:32:33 s/outr/our/ 15:32:43 Harold: two days 15:33:02 csma: so we can freeze BLD on Friday. 15:33:22 Harold: yes. 15:33:43 josb: we need two things entities and xml-namespaces for Prefix. 15:34:20 Harold: ... no it is all only between the tags, so we don't need namespaces. 15:34:50 For pretty print, switch to XML: http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-owl2-primer-20080411/#Basic_Notions 15:34:50 Then view: http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-owl2-primer-20080411/#Appendix:_The_Complete_Example 15:34:50 Harold 15:34:56 q? 15:35:03 Michael: They do XML namespaces in OWL/XML, but it doesn't seem necessary. 15:35:34 Harold: I have pasted some links that illustrate this. 15:36:03 ... the namespace definitions don't seem to be necessary in those examples. 15:36:17 ChrisW: we seem to all agree here. 15:36:50 josb: why do we need entities/namespaces at all? we can just expand at preprocessing. 15:36:55 q+ 15:37:17 ... but I am not very concerned with it. 15:38:06 Michael: We can state that all prefixes should be preprocessed. Don't know whether this is simpler, though. 15:38:08 ack axel 15:39:57 q? 15:40:24 I tend more towards describing the preprocessing of prefixes. 15:40:50 josb: would prefer preprocessing, but don't oppose other option (entity definitions) 15:41:08 Harold: preprocessing can be implemented in the document quickly. 15:41:27 ... we also need to clarify the MIME type question. 15:42:05 sandro: We need a MIME type registration. 15:42:24 zakim, mute me 15:42:24 MichaelKifer should now be muted 15:42:46 harold: I just replaced RDF by RIF in some template from RDF for that. 15:43:04 q+ 15:43:16 sandro: when we go to LC, we have to have the MIME type registered/acknowledged. 15:43:28 csma: who can finish that? 15:43:33 ack josb 15:43:39 sandro: none of us has experience with that. 15:43:55 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/mediatype-registration 15:44:16 Michael and all, Ys we would need to add a sentence or two saying something: The presentation syntax for Base and Prefix will be preprocessed by expanding the Base and Prefix names into full URIs. Only that expanded version will then be translated to XML as shown in this section. 15:44:32 josb: do we need some formal/informal registration with IANA? 15:44:45 Harold - Just put that in the function 15:44:55 ... RDF had it in a deparate document. 15:45:13 s/deparate/separate/ 15:45:17 sandro: doesn't need to be a separate doc, can be an appendix in BLD. 15:45:40 Harold: need some help/feedback on the XML Schema. 15:45:52 action: sandro to finish mime type for BLD 15:45:52 Created ACTION-536 - Finish mime type for BLD [on Sandro Hawke - due 2008-07-08]. 15:46:24 csma: who will finish the mime type stuff? 15:46:31 q+ 15:46:36 sandro: will do it/clarify it by friday. 15:47:26 RE: Media-Type (MIME type) for RIF http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Jun/0070.html 15:48:28 Harold, josb, axel: does not affect SWC and DTB. 15:48:36 ack josb 15:48:37 ack josb 15:49:02 josb: can do a review on Wed July 9th. 15:49:07 PROPOSED: Mark "external frames" AT RISK in BLD 15:49:15 RE: Media-Type (MIME type) for RIF http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Jun/0072.html 15:50:35 csma: we want to mark external frames at risk in bld since we don't understand what they are. 15:50:49 ACTION: harold to mark external frames "at risk" in BLD 15:50:49 Created ACTION-537 - Mark external frames \"at risk\" in BLD [on Harold Boley - due 2008-07-08]. 15:51:14 RESOLVED: Mark "external frames" at risk in BLD 15:52:00 csma: when can you do the review, leora? 15:52:08 leora: over the weekend. 15:53:44 ChrisW: the whole WG is responsible to take a look as well!!! i.e. if no more complaints, jos and leora's reviews will be the last step before going the next step to LC, after jos and leora's reviews. 15:54:51 csma: this means, jos and leora, make clear in your review whether it is a "Go", or a "No Go" 15:55:13 ChrisW: same question now to jos: when do you expect to freeze SWC? 15:56:19 ... and same for DTB, Axel? 15:56:27 josb: after dtb. 15:56:34 axel: DTB is frozen from my side. 15:57:05 ... (for first WD), but would like to have another review, of course. 15:57:28 josb: SWC will be frozen by Tue, COB. 15:58:30 csma: I will review SWC, can give go-nogo, Tue, 15th, COB. 15:58:43 csma: Michael, when id FLD frozen? 15:58:59 zakim, unmute me 15:58:59 MichaelKifer should no longer be muted 15:59:05 Harold: only XSD missing... will be one week form now. 15:59:31 Michael: we have to fix the table and force other improvements from BLD, but can be done within a week. 16:00:00 ... after next telecon, Friday 11th. 16:00:16 csma: who can review? 16:00:40 chrisW, josb: by 15th. 16:00:56 zakkim, list agenda 16:01:04 csma: now what about PRD, ChrisW, pls take over chairing. 16:01:09 zakim, list agenda 16:01:09 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda: 16:01:10 5. Publication plans [from ChrisW] 16:01:10 6. PRD [from ChrisW] 16:01:11 7. ISSUE-61 (casting) [from ChrisW] 16:01:11 8. AOB [from ChrisW] 16:01:17 zakim, take up item 6 16:01:17 agendum 6. "PRD" taken up [from ChrisW] 16:01:25 TOPIC: PRD 16:01:46 ChrisW: discussions on the mailinglist. 16:02:23 ... Christian, you sent a list of interim solutions for 1st WD compromises. 16:02:42 Gary: I had a look, sounds great. 16:03:12 csma: I had some things worked out already, few small edits still to implement. 16:03:45 for no-loop yes. 16:03:46 zakim, who is on the phone? 16:03:46 On the phone I see csma, Sandro, josb, Mike_Dean, ChrisW, StellaMitchell, LeoraMorgenstern, AxelPolleres, Hassan (muted), Gary_Hallmark, MichaelKifer, Mark_Proctor, Harold 16:03:57 ORB is just built on jess. 16:04:00 Gary: (would you might typing in your remark yourself) 16:04:11 zakim, mute me 16:04:11 MichaelKifer should now be muted 16:04:27 ChrisW: Let us discuss 1st WD schedule and then get back to details. 16:04:38 end of the day it comes down to. If you change a fact and for the same rule and same matched data it re-matches do we activate or not. 16:04:50 by default jrules does not. 16:05:00 jess/drools/clips will re-match unless no-loop is used. 16:05:21 csma+Gary discussing some resolution on conditional retract/assert 16:05:33 csma: will have all changes implemented tomorrow. 16:05:45 ... adrian and gary are the reviewers. 16:06:14 chrisW: Can you take an action to give the final go/nogo for 1st WD? 16:06:32 action: Gary to review frozen PRD WD Thursday 16:06:32 Created ACTION-538 - Review frozen PRD WD Thursday [on Gary Hallmark - due 2008-07-08]. 16:06:36 Gary: will be gone 4-20th, but can review on Thu. 16:07:09 ChrisW: We will have PRD frozen tomorrow and Gary giving final go/nogo for WD on Thu. 16:07:23 ... any more technical discussions necessary? 16:07:26 discussion of "norepeat" 16:07:29 ilog does 'no-repeat" as default. 16:07:47 drools, jess, clips do not - you must specify the no-loop attribute for the rule. 16:08:32 no you can't do that. 16:08:36 you cant do it per rule 16:08:40 it has to be per rule + row of data. 16:08:49 csma: semantics of norepeat is explained exactly like Gary wants in the current proposal. 16:08:56 no rule execution, except of the data, is not really a valid use case. 16:08:57 http://www.ilog.com/products/jrules/documentation/jrules67/rssamples/rs_smp_rsruleprog2.html 16:08:57 "The default refraction mechanism avoids executing the same rule several times on the same object instances, even if the rule conditions are met again after a change on an object." 16:09:02 hwo do I get on the phone queuue? 16:09:10 Gary: that doesn't seem to be what ILOG does in their implementation. 16:09:14 correct - the row of data is the important bit. 16:09:15 csma: will check back. 16:09:56 guess no more needs to be said now. 16:10:19 AxelPolleres: i've never actually run JRules, so can't qualify. can just say what I've been told and read, and drawn from my own understanding of PR systems. 16:10:31 csma: am sure to be finished by tomorrow, apart from norepeat, may be marked in the draft. 16:11:29 Gary: Should we have architectural principles to minimize divergence for new dialects from BLD/Core? 16:12:31 ... I'd like to have feedback from the non-PR people here. 16:12:56 ChrisW: hard to follow for the non-PR people who don't tread the whole thread in detail. 16:13:18 s/don't tread/didn't read/ 16:13:49 csma: I'd urge all people to give their opinions on the PRD draft. 16:14:33 did everyone get my excel file I emailed to the list? 16:14:54 ... my view is slightly different from Gary's. My concern is more putting in balance to make the mainstream PR engine people happy over maximizing BLD overlapping. 16:15:23 does it help at all? maybe we can grow it further to correct different engine capabilities. 16:15:29 will help decide on features to support. 16:16:59 just added no-loop to my list. 16:17:37 q? 16:17:43 Gary: I have a hard time giving a handle on the argument here, Clips looks pretty much like BLD, for instance. 16:17:47 is there a website I can put this spreadsheet? 16:17:50 or some google docs? 16:17:53 AdrianP has joined #rif 16:18:11 use the wiki 16:18:36 Mark, I did not have an opportunity to look at it yet. But that's certainly useful. 16:18:54 csma: I apologise if anything is wrong. 16:19:02 ChrisW: I don't think that following PR engine people is the most relevant, let them speak for themselves within the group. 16:19:38 guys you are adding language semantics now, can we move on? 16:19:44 sorry s/adding/argueing/ 16:20:28 csma: I think mark's work in his excel sheet is interesting. 16:21:00 ... I am arguing for publishing PRD as early as possible. 16:21:01 no it's fine. 16:21:14 Chairs, we need to come back in the ongoing telecon to freezing BLD for a moment: As has been often discussed, Equal roles need to be left and right: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Jun/0099.html 16:21:15 zakim, list agenda 16:21:15 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda: 16:21:17 5. Publication plans [from ChrisW] 16:21:17 6. PRD [from ChrisW] 16:21:18 ChrisW: do we have some time to talk about casting? 16:21:19 7. ISSUE-61 (casting) [from ChrisW] 16:21:19 8. AOB [from ChrisW] 16:21:22 zakim, take up item 7 16:21:22 agendum 7. "ISSUE-61 (casting)" taken up [from ChrisW] 16:21:25 ok, i'm trying to make up some wiki table now for htis 16:22:22 Harold: we need to split the role of LHS and RHS in equals. 16:22:26 Adrian has joined #rif 16:22:54 q+ 16:23:16 PROPOSED: Change the roles in Equal from "side" to "left" and "right" (in BLD XML) 16:23:24 ack josb 16:23:27 Topic went back to BLD/XML ... 16:23:41 -1 16:24:00 You cannot even say Equal(x y) = Equal(y x) without splitting side into left and right. 16:24:09 Such is called a rewrite rule, Harold. So why not call it that instead of equation? 16:24:37 This is the job of the semantics. 16:24:44 Harold: reasons: we cannot talk about symmetry of equality in the semantics, if they are symmetric per definiton in the syntax. 16:24:58 q? 16:25:24 jos: I would not oppose changing names in *XML*. 16:25:24 zakim, unmute me 16:25:24 MichaelKifer should no longer be muted 16:25:25 josb: it should be interpreted as identity. 16:25:43 ... I don't care about BLD/XML, though. 16:25:56 I favor lhs/rhs rather than side/side (actually I did from the start) ... 16:26:12 Harold: in PS there is a distinction between left and right of the '=' sign anyway. 16:26:20 zakim, mute me 16:26:20 MichaelKifer should now be muted 16:26:24 s/Harold/Michael/ 16:26:41 josb: then fine, if it is only in the XML syntax. 16:26:42 how do I unlock a page? 16:26:51 0 on the resolution 16:26:53 created this - http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/PR_Feature_comparison 16:26:59 I go to edit and it says it's been locked 16:26:59 markproctor, you have to log in, and have a WG-enabled account. 16:27:11 "This page has been locked to prevent editing. " 16:27:15 PROPOSED: Change the tag name of the sub elements of Equal in BLD XML from side to left and right 16:27:15 ah bugger 16:27:18 -0 (why can't we drop sides tag at all?) 16:27:20 "locked" is media-wiki speak for "you don't have write access" 16:27:21 +1 16:27:22 +1 16:27:23 I probably had one already, but forget what it is. 16:27:26 +1 16:27:27 +1 16:27:27 0 16:27:31 0 16:27:36 just created a new account, mdproctor 16:27:39 (don't care) 16:28:01 RESOLVED: Change the tag name of the sub elements of Equal in BLD XML from side to left and right 16:28:26 +1 16:28:26 +1 16:28:31 +1 16:28:32 can someone enable mdproctor as a username? and I'll do this wiki page now? 16:28:36 zakim, list attendees 16:28:36 As of this point the attendees have been csma, Sandro, +39.047.101.aaaa, josb, Mike_Dean, ChrisW, StellaMitchell, LeoraMorgenstern, AxelPolleres, +33.2.72.26.aabb, Gary_Hallmark, 16:28:40 ... Hassan, +1.631.833.aacc, MichaelKifer, Mark_Proctor, Harold 16:28:43 markproctor, you didn't have an account before. The general advice would be to use the account "Mark Proctor". spaces, etc, are fine. 16:28:51 -josb 16:28:57 Regrets: AdrianPaschke PaulVincent DaveReynolds 16:28:57 -Hassan 16:28:58 -LeoraMorgenstern 16:29:00 -StellaMitchell 16:29:01 -MichaelKifer 16:29:02 markproctor, but mdproctor is okay, if you want..... 16:29:03 rrsagent, make minutes 16:29:03 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/01-rif-minutes.html ChrisW 16:29:03 -Gary_Hallmark 16:29:04 -Harold 16:29:05 -Mike_Dean 16:29:14 ah ok i already created it, sorry. 16:29:16 zakim, who is on the call? 16:29:16 On the phone I see csma, Sandro, ChrisW, AxelPolleres, Mark_Proctor 16:29:18 shall I create another one? 16:29:19 zakim, who is on the phone? 16:29:19 On the phone I see csma, Sandro, ChrisW, AxelPolleres, Mark_Proctor 16:29:29 sure, another one is fine, markproctor 16:29:48 -AxelPolleres 16:31:12 ok done 16:31:12 zakim, drop Mark_Proctor 16:31:12 Mark_Proctor is being disconnected 16:31:13 -Mark_Proctor 16:31:14 created markproctor 16:31:26