IRC log of svg on 2008-06-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

10:31:42 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #svg

10:31:42 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-svg-irc

10:31:44 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs public

10:31:44 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #svg

10:31:46 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG

10:31:46 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG()6:30AM scheduled to start now

10:31:47 [trackbot]

Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference

10:31:47 [trackbot]

Date: 26 June 2008

10:32:04 [Zakim]

GA_SVGWG()6:30AM has now started

10:32:11 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

10:32:13 [heycam]

Zakim, [ is me

10:32:13 [Zakim]

+heycam; got it

10:32:21 [Zakim]

+Doug_Schepers

10:32:45 [Zakim]

+??P4

10:32:53 [anthony]

Zakim, ??P4 is me

10:32:53 [Zakim]

+anthony; got it

10:33:08 [ed]

ed has joined #svg

10:34:11 [Zakim]

+??P5

10:34:23 [ed]

Zakim, ??P5 is me

10:34:23 [Zakim]

+ed; got it

10:36:44 [ed]

Zakim, who's here?

10:36:44 [Zakim]

On the phone I see heycam, Doug_Schepers, anthony, ed

10:36:45 [Zakim]

On IRC I see ed, Zakim, RRSAgent, anthony, heycam, ed_, trackbot, shepazu

10:37:18 [heycam]

Scribe: Cameron

10:37:20 [heycam]

ScribeNick: heycam

10:37:31 [heycam]

Regrets: Andrew Emmons, Chris Lilley

10:37:37 [ed]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0162.html

10:37:37 [heycam]

Chair: Erik

10:41:04 [ed]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Jun/0051.html

10:41:39 [heycam]

Topic: SVG animate values format

10:41:59 [heycam]

ED: This is about trailing semicolons in the values="" attribute

10:42:08 [heycam]

ED: and whether you get an additional value if it ends with a ';'

10:43:11 [heycam]

CM: I agree with Julien's assessment that his example should be invalid

10:43:24 [heycam]

DS: Could there be a recovery behaviour here?

10:43:54 [anthony]

http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/REC-SMIL2-20051213/animation.html#adef-values

10:44:08 [heycam]

CM: The grammar is defined by SMIL

10:44:09 [ed]

http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/animate.html#ValuesAttribute

10:44:11 [heycam]

CM: is it by reference?

10:44:12 [heycam]

AG: yes

10:44:44 [heycam]

ED: we could override the definition in SVG

10:45:16 [heycam]

CM: I wonder if there's content out there that uses this semicolon at the end of the list.

10:45:29 [ed]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Jun/0020.html

10:45:57 [heycam]

ED: in that mail, andrew points out that the ikivo animator produces content with the semicolon

10:46:03 [heycam]

ED: and both ikivo and bitflash accept it

10:46:07 [heycam]

AG: what does opera do?

10:46:09 [heycam]

ED: not sure

10:48:05 [heycam]

http://mcc.id.au/temp/semicolon.svg

10:48:44 [heycam]

CM: Batik does accept the semicolon

10:52:46 [heycam]

(discussion about empty string values, like for animating URLs)

10:53:56 [heycam]

CM: you can validly have <a xlink:href=""/>

10:54:29 [heycam]

DS: if we had an image, and we're animating the xlink:href and the last value was the empty string, that would mean that the last value is that the image goes blank

10:54:52 [heycam]

CM: yeah

10:55:18 [heycam]

DS: i'm curious where else SMIL is being used

10:57:39 [heycam]

CM: maybe we can just force the use of '#' for same document references in values=""

10:57:48 [heycam]

CM: but we should test if empty strings work currently in UAs

10:57:58 [heycam]

ACTION: Cameron to test empty string values in animations

10:57:58 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-2074 - Test empty string values in animations [on Cameron McCormack - due 2008-07-03].

10:58:48 [heycam]

ISSUE: Behaviour of animating values="a; b; c;" in existing UAs is at odds with the spec

10:58:48 [trackbot]

Created ISSUE-2010 - Behaviour of animating values=\"a; b; c;\" in existing UAs is at odds with the spec ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2010/edit .

10:59:50 [ed]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Jun/0002.html

11:00:00 [heycam]

Topic: SVG Tiny Schema

11:02:30 [heycam]

DS: Chris looked at it a little, and thought maybe it was id vs xml:id

11:02:37 [heycam]

DS: but Chris says somewhere we introduced id in two different places

11:03:14 [heycam]

DS: I'm going to be talking next month (maybe before) to the Relax guys, I can ask them about this.

11:03:33 [heycam]

ISSUE: SVG Tiny schema is broken

11:03:33 [trackbot]

Created ISSUE-2011 - SVG Tiny schema is broken ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2011/edit .

11:03:58 [shepazu]

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2009

11:04:03 [heycam]

trackbot, close ISSUE-2011

11:04:03 [trackbot]

Sorry, heycam, I don't understand 'trackbot, close ISSUE-2011'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help

11:04:44 [heycam]

ACTION: Doug to figure out why the SVG Tiny schema is broken (ISSUE-2009)

11:04:44 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-2075 - Figure out why the SVG Tiny schema is broken (ISSUE-2009) [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-07-03].

11:05:18 [heycam]

ED: reply to felix?

11:05:35 [heycam]

DS: i'll investigate it, see if we can fix it, then reply to felix

11:05:48 [heycam]

Topic: Resolving IRIs for resource documents in SVG Tiny 1.2

11:05:49 [ed]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008May/0033.html

11:06:25 [heycam]

CM: last time we said push it off until we hear from andrew, since bitflash does the double network access already

11:06:34 [heycam]

ED: we don't want to delay spec edits

11:06:46 [heycam]

ED: maybe we can contact someone else at bitflash

11:08:00 [heycam]

ACTION: Cameron to mail some BitFlash guys about ISSUE-2003

11:08:00 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-2076 - Mail some BitFlash guys about ISSUE-2003 [on Cameron McCormack - due 2008-07-03].

11:11:23 [heycam]

Topic: percentages in clipPath/pattern/filter/mask content

11:11:24 [ed]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008May/0048.html

11:12:01 [heycam]

ED: it might be confusing to some people that percentages are relative to the viewport, and not the bbox of the element it's used on

11:12:12 [heycam]

ED: otoh, if you use values like 0.1, then you get 10% of the object bbox

11:12:53 [heycam]

CM: is it deliberate so that you can use viewport-relative and bbox-relative values in there?

11:12:58 [heycam]

ED: don't know if it's deliberate, but it is confusing

11:13:24 [heycam]

CM: i imagine there might be content out there that uses it

11:13:45 [heycam]

ED: it would be nice to have a test to see if an implementation uses percentages as bbox-relative

11:14:04 [heycam]

ED: not difficult to change it, but wondering if content relies on it

11:15:15 [heycam]

ED: first step would be to try implementations

11:15:31 [heycam]

ED: don't know if it's useful to have the functionality of being able to have a percentage of the viewport

11:15:45 [heycam]

ED: and at the same time using objectBoundingBox coordinates

11:16:44 [heycam]

ACTION: Erik to test implementations for percentage values in clipPath, etc.

11:16:44 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-2077 - Test implementations for percentage values in clipPath, etc. [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-07-03].

11:17:55 [heycam]

ISSUE: Percentages in clipPath/pattern/filter/mask unintuitive

11:17:55 [trackbot]

Created ISSUE-2013 - Percentages in clipPath/pattern/filter/mask unintuitive ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2013/edit .

11:18:28 [ed]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Jun/0019.html

11:18:31 [heycam]

Topic: Tiny 1.2 and Key Identifiers

11:19:02 [heycam]

ED: Is there a way of telling where a keyboard event comes from in the uDOM? I don't think so.

11:19:14 [heycam]

ED: There's no keyLocation in the tiny KeyboardEvent.

11:19:14 [ed]

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/spec/mobile/1.2/1.2NG/publish/svgudom.html#events__KeyboardEvent

11:20:07 [heycam]

CM: is keyLocation safe in the current DOM3Key spec?

11:20:08 [heycam]

DS: yes

11:20:31 [heycam]

ED: we could add it

11:20:37 [heycam]

DS: it is a subset intended for mobiles, where you only have one keypad

11:20:46 [heycam]

ED: otoh that content might be viewed on different devices

11:21:14 [heycam]

DS: if the content is constrained to the device (if it doesn't assume it can get the different locations) then it doesn't matter

11:21:27 [heycam]

DS: for uDOM in general, it would be better if we were to add it

11:21:55 [heycam]

DS: that would change the java bindings

11:22:34 [heycam]

ED: i'd be tempted not to change it in tiny, and in full say that the full DOM3Key interface is required

11:22:40 [heycam]

DS: does that resolve the entire issue?

11:22:43 [heycam]

ED: not really, but part of it

11:23:03 [heycam]

ED: you'd be saying there's no way to find out where the is coming from, and that you have to rely on DOM 3 Events before being able to decide that

11:23:17 [heycam]

ED: you could always test if keyLocation is there, and use it if it is

11:23:46 [heycam]

ED: the modifier keys are missing as well, same thing

11:24:02 [heycam]

ED: is there any difference in lowercase a and uppercase a? is it the same key identifier?

11:24:49 [heycam]

CM: you'd always get U+0041 i think

11:24:53 [heycam]

CM: and there's still textEvent yes?

11:24:53 [heycam]

ED: yes

11:25:02 [heycam]

ED: so you can get the actual typed in string with that

11:25:31 [heycam]

AG: in full we can say to support full DOM3Key

11:26:26 [heycam]

CM: do mobile devices that the udom is targetted to have shift/ctrl keys anyway?

11:26:33 [heycam]

ED: some devices do have shift-like keys

11:26:37 [heycam]

DS: there's IME

11:27:18 [heycam]

ED: mine does have a full(ish) keyboard, with a shift key

11:27:26 [heycam]

ED: and you can type upper and lowercase letters

11:30:10 [ed]

http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/events.html#Events-KeyboardEvent

11:30:24 [heycam]

AG: issue freeze?

11:31:49 [heycam]

CM: you can probably keep a track of shift key state in script if you really needed to

11:34:36 [heycam]

RESOLUTION: We won't add keyLocation and modifier key attributes to the uDOM KeyboardEvent, but we will look at requiring the full DOM3Key interface in 1.2 Full

11:34:55 [heycam]

s/look at requiring/require/

11:35:43 [heycam]

ACTION: Doug to reply to Julien to say that we won't add keyLocation etc. to KeyboardEvent in the uDOM

11:35:43 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-2078 - Reply to Julien to say that we won't add keyLocation etc. to KeyboardEvent in the uDOM [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-07-03].

11:36:21 [heycam]

Topic: Test suite

11:36:25 [heycam]

ED: Has publication happened yet?

11:36:27 [heycam]

DS: no

11:36:30 [heycam]

ED: soon?

11:36:34 [heycam]

DS: yes

11:36:47 [heycam]

ED: we should track test case issues

11:36:54 [heycam]

DS: why not in tracker?

11:37:06 [heycam]

CM: there is a product in there for the test suite

11:37:20 [ed]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Jun/0023.html

11:37:24 [heycam]

Topic: SVGt 1.2 Tests: Illegal separator in linking-frag-201 and 202

11:38:15 [heycam]

ED: This is using spaces in a URI, and the spec requires using commas without spaces

11:38:50 [heycam]

CM: so escaped spaces (%20) aren't allowed

11:39:56 [heycam]

DS: we could say that the fragment is URL encoded

11:40:13 [heycam]

DS: if i have a space in my URL now, in a browser, it uses a %20

11:40:50 [heycam]

DS: we could say if a space is part of a functional fragment then it's escaped

11:42:27 [heycam]

CM: i don't know the intricacies of urls/uris/iris/leiris enough to know

11:43:45 [heycam]

CM: maybe we can fix the test case to use commas, and raise an issue for the general problem of spaces in there

11:44:30 [heycam]

ED: i agree with kalle's comments on the test description

11:44:33 [heycam]

DS: yes

11:44:37 [heycam]

ED: so that should be changed

11:45:00 [heycam]

ACTION: Anthony to fix linking-frag-20[12] and reply to Kalle

11:45:00 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-2079 - Fix linking-frag-20[12] and reply to Kalle [on Anthony Grasso - due 2008-07-03].

11:46:40 [ed]

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/spec/mobile/1.2/1.2NG/publish/linking.html#IntroFragmentsViews

11:48:05 [heycam]

ISSUE: The restriction on IRI fragments in view specs to disallow spaces may be overly restrictive

11:48:05 [trackbot]

Created ISSUE-2014 - The restriction on IRI fragments in view specs to disallow spaces may be overly restrictive ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2014/edit .

11:49:07 [ed]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0147.html

11:49:08 [heycam]

Topic: XHTML Access module review

11:49:28 [shepazu]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0161.html

11:49:53 [heycam]

DS: shouldn't take more than half an hour to read through

11:49:57 [heycam]

ED: what is it for?

11:50:15 [heycam]

DS: the idea is that there is an <access> element with a key="" attribute that is a character

11:50:36 [heycam]

CM: this is for keyboard shortcuts?

11:50:37 [heycam]

DS: yes

11:50:57 [heycam]

DS: right now we have the accesskey="" we got from SMIL, but that is known to be a problem

11:51:24 [heycam]

DS: you map the values of the <access> element to things in the DOM with targetid=""

11:52:15 [heycam]

DS: or you can use targetrole="", which will make the access key go to the element with that role

11:52:42 [heycam]

DS: you can have lists in these attributes, which will cause cycling through when you press the access key multiple times

11:53:01 [heycam]

DS: if you say activate="yes", then if the user presses the key, it will shift the focus to that element and activate it (e.g. if it's a link it will follow it)

11:54:13 [heycam]

DS: it'd be a good part of the role stuff we'll have in svg

11:55:23 [heycam]

DS: what if you wanted to describe a sequence of things that weren't in document order? e.g. when you hit F it goes to the first node, then hitting F goes to the second node, which may or may not be in document order

11:56:02 [heycam]

ED: seems strange to be document order, and not order in the attribute

11:56:22 [heycam]

ED: has to be one key, not several keys? e.g. if you are used to emacs shortcuts you can't add those in addition to your regular keys?

11:56:47 [heycam]

ED: or modifier keys

11:57:09 [heycam]

DS: you could have both P and Q mapped to the same element with multiple <access> elements

11:57:59 [heycam]

ED: can't do multi-key-sequences either, e.g. M followed be E

11:59:11 [heycam]

DS: an interesting example, not sure if it's a powerful use case

12:01:01 [heycam]

ED: encourage you all to send comments

12:01:18 [heycam]

DS: due date is already past, but someone asked for an extension so if we do them by next week it would be great

12:03:52 [Zakim]

-heycam

12:03:54 [heycam]

RRSAgent, make minutes

12:03:54 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-svg-minutes.html heycam

12:04:29 [anthony]

http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/SVG/proposals/svg-html/

12:04:31 [Zakim]

-Doug_Schepers

12:04:49 [Zakim]

-ed

12:04:52 [Zakim]

-anthony

12:04:53 [Zakim]

GA_SVGWG()6:30AM has ended

12:04:54 [Zakim]

Attendees were [IPcaller], heycam, Doug_Schepers, anthony, ed

12:30:39 [shepazu]

heycam: I recommend Cosmic Trigger more

12:30:58 [shepazu]

shorter, and trippier

12:52:40 [ed_]

still pretty thick, but maybe i'm just lazy...i recommend the principia discordia instead ;)

13:02:55 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #svg

13:11:43 [shepazu]

ed_: yeah, but you're an anarchist

13:16:12 [ed_]

shepazu: yes, that is either true, false or both in some sense

13:16:23 [shepazu]

:D

13:46:11 [shepazu]

ed_: so, it was Simon Pieters who doesn't want to go public with his input, eh?

13:46:57 [shepazu]

interesting that the WHATWG might be a little oppressive even to its inner circle...

13:53:29 [ed_]

hm?