10:31:42 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg
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10:31:44 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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10:31:46 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
10:31:46 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG()6:30AM scheduled to start now
10:31:47 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
10:31:47 <trackbot> Date: 26 June 2008
10:32:04 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()6:30AM has now started
10:32:11 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
10:32:13 <heycam> Zakim, [ is me
10:32:13 <Zakim> +heycam; got it
10:32:21 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
10:32:45 <Zakim> +??P4
10:32:53 <anthony> Zakim, ??P4 is me
10:32:53 <Zakim> +anthony; got it
10:33:08 <ed> ed has joined #svg
10:34:11 <Zakim> +??P5
10:34:23 <ed> Zakim, ??P5 is me
10:34:23 <Zakim> +ed; got it
10:36:44 <ed> Zakim, who's here?
10:36:44 <Zakim> On the phone I see heycam, Doug_Schepers, anthony, ed
10:36:45 <Zakim> On IRC I see ed, Zakim, RRSAgent, anthony, heycam, ed_, trackbot, shepazu
10:37:18 <heycam> Scribe: Cameron
10:37:20 <heycam> ScribeNick: heycam
10:37:31 <heycam> Regrets: Andrew Emmons, Chris Lilley
10:37:37 <ed> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0162.html
10:37:37 <heycam> Chair: Erik
10:41:04 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Jun/0051.html
10:41:39 <heycam> Topic: SVG animate values format
10:41:59 <heycam> ED: This is about trailing semicolons in the values="" attribute
10:42:08 <heycam> ED: and whether you get an additional value if it ends with a ';'
10:43:11 <heycam> CM: I agree with Julien's assessment that his example should be invalid
10:43:24 <heycam> DS: Could there be a recovery behaviour here?
10:43:54 <anthony> http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/REC-SMIL2-20051213/animation.html#adef-values
10:44:08 <heycam> CM: The grammar is defined by SMIL
10:44:09 <ed> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/animate.html#ValuesAttribute
10:44:11 <heycam> CM: is it by reference?
10:44:12 <heycam> AG: yes
10:44:44 <heycam> ED: we could override the definition in SVG
10:45:16 <heycam> CM: I wonder if there's content out there that uses this semicolon at the end of the list.
10:45:29 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Jun/0020.html
10:45:57 <heycam> ED: in that mail, andrew points out that the ikivo animator produces content with the semicolon
10:46:03 <heycam> ED: and both ikivo and bitflash accept it
10:46:07 <heycam> AG: what does opera do?
10:46:09 <heycam> ED: not sure
10:48:05 <heycam> http://mcc.id.au/temp/semicolon.svg
10:48:44 <heycam> CM: Batik does accept the semicolon
10:52:46 <heycam> (discussion about empty string values, like for animating URLs)
10:53:56 <heycam> CM: you can validly have <a xlink:href=""/>
10:54:29 <heycam> DS: if we had an image, and we're animating the xlink:href and the last value was the empty string, that would mean that the last value is that the image goes blank
10:54:52 <heycam> CM: yeah
10:55:18 <heycam> DS: i'm curious where else SMIL is being used
10:57:39 <heycam> CM: maybe we can just force the use of '#' for same document references in values=""
10:57:48 <heycam> CM: but we should test if empty strings work currently in UAs
10:57:58 <heycam> ACTION: Cameron to test empty string values in animations
10:57:58 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2074 - Test empty string values in animations [on Cameron McCormack - due 2008-07-03].
10:58:48 <heycam> ISSUE: Behaviour of animating values="a; b; c;" in existing UAs is at odds with the spec
10:58:48 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-2010 - Behaviour of animating values=\"a; b; c;\" in existing UAs is at odds with the spec ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2010/edit .
10:59:50 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Jun/0002.html
11:00:00 <heycam> Topic: SVG Tiny Schema
11:02:30 <heycam> DS: Chris looked at it a little, and thought maybe it was id vs xml:id
11:02:37 <heycam> DS: but Chris says somewhere we introduced id in two different places
11:03:14 <heycam> DS: I'm going to be talking next month (maybe before) to the Relax guys, I can ask them about this.
11:03:33 <heycam> ISSUE: SVG Tiny schema is broken
11:03:33 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-2011 - SVG Tiny schema is broken ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2011/edit .
11:03:58 <shepazu> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2009
11:04:03 <heycam> trackbot, close ISSUE-2011
11:04:03 <trackbot> Sorry, heycam, I don't understand 'trackbot, close ISSUE-2011'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
11:04:44 <heycam> ACTION: Doug to figure out why the SVG Tiny schema is broken (ISSUE-2009)
11:04:44 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2075 - Figure out why the SVG Tiny schema is broken (ISSUE-2009) [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-07-03].
11:05:18 <heycam> ED: reply to felix?
11:05:35 <heycam> DS: i'll investigate it, see if we can fix it, then reply to felix
11:05:48 <heycam> Topic: Resolving IRIs for resource documents in SVG Tiny 1.2
11:05:49 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008May/0033.html
11:06:25 <heycam> CM: last time we said push it off until we hear from andrew, since bitflash does the double network access already
11:06:34 <heycam> ED: we don't want to delay spec edits
11:06:46 <heycam> ED: maybe we can contact someone else at bitflash
11:08:00 <heycam> ACTION: Cameron to mail some BitFlash guys about ISSUE-2003
11:08:00 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2076 - Mail some BitFlash guys about ISSUE-2003 [on Cameron McCormack - due 2008-07-03].
11:11:23 <heycam> Topic: percentages in clipPath/pattern/filter/mask content
11:11:24 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008May/0048.html
11:12:01 <heycam> ED: it might be confusing to some people that percentages are relative to the viewport, and not the bbox of the element it's used on
11:12:12 <heycam> ED: otoh, if you use values like 0.1, then you get 10% of the object bbox
11:12:53 <heycam> CM: is it deliberate so that you can use viewport-relative and bbox-relative values in there?
11:12:58 <heycam> ED: don't know if it's deliberate, but it is confusing
11:13:24 <heycam> CM: i imagine there might be content out there that uses it
11:13:45 <heycam> ED: it would be nice to have a test to see if an implementation uses percentages as bbox-relative
11:14:04 <heycam> ED: not difficult to change it, but wondering if content relies on it
11:15:15 <heycam> ED: first step would be to try implementations
11:15:31 <heycam> ED: don't know if it's useful to have the functionality of being able to have a percentage of the viewport
11:15:45 <heycam> ED: and at the same time using objectBoundingBox coordinates
11:16:44 <heycam> ACTION: Erik to test implementations for percentage values in clipPath, etc.
11:16:44 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2077 - Test implementations for percentage values in clipPath, etc. [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-07-03].
11:17:55 <heycam> ISSUE: Percentages in clipPath/pattern/filter/mask unintuitive
11:17:55 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-2013 - Percentages in clipPath/pattern/filter/mask unintuitive ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2013/edit .
11:18:28 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Jun/0019.html
11:18:31 <heycam> Topic: Tiny 1.2 and Key Identifiers
11:19:02 <heycam> ED: Is there a way of telling where a keyboard event comes from in the uDOM?  I don't think so.
11:19:14 <heycam> ED: There's no keyLocation in the tiny KeyboardEvent.
11:19:14 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/spec/mobile/1.2/1.2NG/publish/svgudom.html#events__KeyboardEvent
11:20:07 <heycam> CM: is keyLocation safe in the current DOM3Key spec?
11:20:08 <heycam> DS: yes
11:20:31 <heycam> ED: we could add it
11:20:37 <heycam> DS: it is a subset intended for mobiles, where you only have one keypad
11:20:46 <heycam> ED: otoh that content might be viewed on different devices
11:21:14 <heycam> DS: if the content is constrained to the device (if it doesn't assume it can get the different locations) then it doesn't matter
11:21:27 <heycam> DS: for uDOM in general, it would be better if we were to add it
11:21:55 <heycam> DS: that would change the java bindings
11:22:34 <heycam> ED: i'd be tempted not to change it in tiny, and in full say that the full DOM3Key interface is required
11:22:40 <heycam> DS: does that resolve the entire issue?
11:22:43 <heycam> ED: not really, but part of it
11:23:03 <heycam> ED: you'd be saying there's no way to find out where the is coming from, and that you have to rely on DOM 3 Events before being able to decide that
11:23:17 <heycam> ED: you could always test if keyLocation is there, and use it if it is
11:23:46 <heycam> ED: the modifier keys are missing as well, same thing
11:24:02 <heycam> ED: is there any difference in lowercase a and uppercase a?  is it the same key identifier?
11:24:49 <heycam> CM: you'd always get U+0041 i think
11:24:53 <heycam> CM: and there's still textEvent yes?
11:24:53 <heycam> ED: yes
11:25:02 <heycam> ED: so you can get the actual typed in string with that
11:25:31 <heycam> AG: in full we can say to support full DOM3Key
11:26:26 <heycam> CM: do mobile devices that the udom is targetted to have shift/ctrl keys anyway?
11:26:33 <heycam> ED: some devices do have shift-like keys
11:26:37 <heycam> DS: there's IME
11:27:18 <heycam> ED: mine does have a full(ish) keyboard, with a shift key
11:27:26 <heycam> ED: and you can type upper and lowercase letters
11:30:10 <ed> http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/events.html#Events-KeyboardEvent
11:30:24 <heycam> AG: issue freeze?
11:31:49 <heycam> CM: you can probably keep a track of shift key state in script if you really needed to
11:34:36 <heycam> RESOLUTION: We won't add keyLocation and modifier key attributes to the uDOM KeyboardEvent, but we will look at requiring the full DOM3Key interface in 1.2 Full
11:34:55 <heycam> s/look at requiring/require/
11:35:43 <heycam> ACTION: Doug to reply to Julien to say that we won't add keyLocation etc. to KeyboardEvent in the uDOM
11:35:43 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2078 - Reply to Julien to say that we won't add keyLocation etc. to KeyboardEvent in the uDOM [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-07-03].
11:36:21 <heycam> Topic: Test suite
11:36:25 <heycam> ED: Has publication happened yet?
11:36:27 <heycam> DS: no
11:36:30 <heycam> ED: soon?
11:36:34 <heycam> DS: yes
11:36:47 <heycam> ED: we should track test case issues
11:36:54 <heycam> DS: why not in tracker?
11:37:06 <heycam> CM: there is a product in there for the test suite
11:37:20 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Jun/0023.html
11:37:24 <heycam> Topic: SVGt 1.2 Tests: Illegal separator in linking-frag-201 and 202
11:38:15 <heycam> ED: This is using spaces in a URI, and the spec requires using commas without spaces
11:38:50 <heycam> CM: so escaped spaces (%20) aren't allowed
11:39:56 <heycam> DS: we could say that the fragment is URL encoded
11:40:13 <heycam> DS: if i have a space in my URL now, in a browser, it uses a %20
11:40:50 <heycam> DS: we could say if a space is part of a functional fragment then it's escaped
11:42:27 <heycam> CM: i don't know the intricacies of urls/uris/iris/leiris enough to know
11:43:45 <heycam> CM: maybe we can fix the test case to use commas, and raise an issue for the general problem of spaces in there
11:44:30 <heycam> ED: i agree with kalle's comments on the test description
11:44:33 <heycam> DS: yes
11:44:37 <heycam> ED: so that should be changed
11:45:00 <heycam> ACTION: Anthony to fix linking-frag-20[12] and reply to Kalle
11:45:00 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2079 - Fix linking-frag-20[12] and reply to Kalle [on Anthony Grasso - due 2008-07-03].
11:46:40 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/spec/mobile/1.2/1.2NG/publish/linking.html#IntroFragmentsViews
11:48:05 <heycam> ISSUE: The restriction on IRI fragments in view specs to disallow spaces may be overly restrictive
11:48:05 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-2014 - The restriction on IRI fragments in view specs to disallow spaces may be overly restrictive ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2014/edit .
11:49:07 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0147.html
11:49:08 <heycam> Topic: XHTML Access module review
11:49:28 <shepazu> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0161.html
11:49:53 <heycam> DS: shouldn't take more than half an hour to read through
11:49:57 <heycam> ED: what is it for?
11:50:15 <heycam> DS: the idea is that there is an <access> element with a key="" attribute that is a character
11:50:36 <heycam> CM: this is for keyboard shortcuts?
11:50:37 <heycam> DS: yes
11:50:57 <heycam> DS: right now we have the accesskey="" we got from SMIL, but that is known to be a problem
11:51:24 <heycam> DS: you map the values of the <access> element to things in the DOM with targetid=""
11:52:15 <heycam> DS: or you can use targetrole="", which will make the access key go to the element with that role
11:52:42 <heycam> DS: you can have lists in these attributes, which will cause cycling through when you press the access key multiple times
11:53:01 <heycam> DS: if you say activate="yes", then if the user presses the key, it will shift the focus to that element and activate it (e.g. if it's a link it will follow it)
11:54:13 <heycam> DS: it'd be a good part of the role stuff we'll have in svg
11:55:23 <heycam> DS: what if you wanted to describe a sequence of things that weren't in document order?  e.g. when you hit F it goes to the first node, then hitting F goes to the second node, which may or may not be in document order
11:56:02 <heycam> ED: seems strange to be document order, and not order in the attribute
11:56:22 <heycam> ED: has to be one key, not several keys?  e.g. if you are used to emacs shortcuts you can't add those in addition to your regular keys?
11:56:47 <heycam> ED: or modifier keys
11:57:09 <heycam> DS: you could have both P and Q mapped to the same element with multiple <access> elements
11:57:59 <heycam> ED: can't do multi-key-sequences either, e.g. M followed be E
11:59:11 <heycam> DS: an interesting example, not sure if it's a powerful use case
12:01:01 <heycam> ED: encourage you all to send comments
12:01:18 <heycam> DS: due date is already past, but someone asked for an extension so if we do them by next week it would be great
12:03:52 <Zakim> -heycam
12:03:54 <heycam> RRSAgent, make minutes
12:03:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-svg-minutes.html heycam
12:04:29 <anthony> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/SVG/proposals/svg-html/
12:04:31 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
12:04:49 <Zakim> -ed
12:04:52 <Zakim> -anthony
12:04:53 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()6:30AM has ended
12:04:54 <Zakim> Attendees were [IPcaller], heycam, Doug_Schepers, anthony, ed
12:30:39 <shepazu> heycam: I recommend Cosmic Trigger more
12:30:58 <shepazu> shorter, and trippier
12:52:40 <ed_> still pretty thick, but maybe i'm just lazy...i recommend the principia discordia instead ;)
13:02:55 <Zakim> Zakim has left #svg
13:11:43 <shepazu> ed_: yeah, but you're an anarchist
13:16:12 <ed_> shepazu: yes, that is either true, false or both in some sense
13:16:23 <shepazu> :D
13:46:11 <shepazu> ed_: so, it was Simon Pieters who doesn't want to go public with his input, eh?
13:46:57 <shepazu> interesting that the WHATWG might be a little oppressive even to its inner circle...
13:53:29 <ed_> hm?