14:54:56 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
14:54:56 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-irc
14:55:01 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdfa
14:55:06 <Ralph> Meeting: RDF-in-XHTML TF
14:55:11 <Ralph> zakim, this will be rdfa
14:55:13 <Zakim> ok, Ralph; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
14:55:24 <Ralph> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Jun/0134.html
14:55:39 <Ralph> Regrets: Ben, Michael
14:57:34 <Ralph> -> http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-rdfa-minutes previous 2007-06-19
14:59:24 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started
14:59:26 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:59:33 <msporny> zakim, I am IPcaller
14:59:33 <Zakim> ok, msporny, I now associate you with [IPcaller]
14:59:49 <Zakim> +Ralph
15:00:37 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
15:00:37 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a]
15:00:37 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
15:00:48 <ShaneM> zakim, IPcaller.a is ShaneM
15:00:48 <Zakim> +ShaneM; got it
15:00:57 <markbirbeck> markbirbeck has joined #rdfa
15:01:17 <markbirbeck> zakim, code?
15:01:17 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
15:01:27 <markbirbeck> zakim, who is here?
15:01:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller], Ralph, ShaneM
15:01:29 <Zakim> On IRC I see markbirbeck, Zakim, RRSAgent, Ralph, msporny, myakura, ShaneM
15:01:43 <Ralph> zakim, [ipcaller] is Manu
15:01:49 <Zakim> +Manu; got it
15:02:30 <Zakim> +??P55
15:02:33 <markbirbeck> zakim, i am ?
15:02:33 <Zakim> +markbirbeck; got it
15:02:57 <Ralph> Chair: Manu
15:03:00 <Ralph> Scribe: Ralph
15:03:10 <Ralph> ACTION: Ben followup with Fabien on getting his RDFa GRDDL transform transferred to W3C [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]
15:03:12 <Ralph> -- continues
15:03:24 <Ralph> ACTION: Manu to reach out to Slashdot and attempt to get RDFa integrated into Slashdot. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]
15:03:57 <Ralph> -- done
15:03:57 <Ralph> Manu: I've been talking with @@ and he said he'd be more than happy to accept a patch.
15:04:11 <Ralph> ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot
15:04:21 <msporny> Jamie McCarthy
15:04:30 <Ralph> s/@@/Jamie McCarthy/
15:05:08 <Ralph> Shane: operator only notices RDFa in a page if one of our new attributes is used in the page.  This is a bug.
15:05:25 <Ralph> Manu: I believe this implementation is Elias' code
15:05:39 <Ralph> ... may be a month or two behind the spec
15:06:08 <Ralph> Shane: perhaps they decided that this was a clever way to infer an announcement
15:06:16 <Ralph> ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
15:06:19 <Ralph> -- continues
15:06:26 <Ralph> [DONE] ACTION: Ralph confirm whether LGPL is ok with W3C [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
15:06:42 <Ralph> Ralph: LGPL is OK for the XSLT, particularly since it's non-normative
15:07:00 <Ralph> Topic: Tools for RDFa authors
15:07:15 <Ralph> Manu: we've received some criticism that we haven't provided enough teaching tools
15:07:21 <Ralph> ... we could create more wiki examples
15:07:37 <Ralph> Shane: to some extent it's about design patterns
15:07:54 <Ralph> ... so one way to teach the technology is to show lots of best practices design patterns
15:08:01 <markbirbeck> you keep cutting out Shane
15:08:21 <Ralph> Shane: if you're a microformat user and want to transition to RDFa, what would you need to do?
15:08:32 <Ralph> ... these are two different audiences and we may need to address them both
15:08:44 <markbirbeck> q+
15:09:02 <Ralph> ... might antagonize some, however
15:09:40 <Ralph> Mark: opinions can evolve over the years
15:10:16 <Ralph> ... we've offered an outreached hand to show how microformats can use parts of RDFa
15:10:41 <Ralph> ... there's lots of momentum now [for RDFa]
15:11:51 <Ralph> ... I'd suggest making sure we've covered all the non-microformat examples first
15:11:59 <Ralph> ... e.g. ones where there is no vocabulary
15:12:03 <Steven> Steven has joined #rdfa
15:12:13 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
15:12:20 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:12:21 <ShaneM> q+ about things that have RDF basis already
15:12:22 <Zakim> +Steven
15:12:27 <Ralph> Manu: yes, there's some basic examples we don't yet have in the wiki
15:12:41 <Ralph> ... these are things people tend to mark-up often
15:13:03 <Ralph> ... effectively this is FOAF, vEvent; people+places+event
15:13:19 <Ralph> ... chemistry might be interesting; depends on our goals
15:13:41 <Ralph> ... definitely do chemistry if our goal is to help people who can't currently use microformats
15:14:11 <Ralph> ... other examples are higher priority if our goal is to address large numbers of users
15:14:24 <Ralph> Mark: geolocation also nice and simple
15:14:25 <ShaneM> GEO location is dead easy, fwiw.
15:15:09 <Steven> rrsagent, here?
15:15:09 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-irc#T15-15-09
15:15:15 <Ralph> Shane: Dan Brickley's geolocation vocabulary "just works"
15:15:27 <Steven> rrsagent, make log public
15:15:48 <ShaneM> There are some existing vocabularies that just work....  let's use them in our examples
15:15:48 <Ralph> Shane: the cool thing is that we didn't have to do anything in RDFa; the RDF vocabulary just worked
15:16:05 <Ralph> s/anything/anything special/
15:16:21 <Ralph> Manu: can we pick 5 or six to work on for the wiki and each pick one?
15:16:29 <Steven> I did Vevent already
15:16:35 <Ralph> ... I'll take haudio plus one other, perhaps foaf or vevent
15:16:36 <Steven> Happy to expand
15:16:38 <Ralph> Mark: I'll take foaf
15:17:12 <Ralph> ACTION: Manu write haudio examples for wiki
15:17:19 <Ralph> ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki
15:17:27 <Ralph> ACTION: Steven write vevent examples for wiki
15:17:38 <markbirbeck> http://internet-apps.blogspot.com/2008/02/first-steps-in-rdfa-creating-foaf.html
15:17:40 <Ralph> ACTION: Shane write geolocation examples for wiki
15:17:53 <Ralph> Shane: "the wiki" means which wiki?
15:17:57 <Ralph> Manu: rdfa.info/wiki
15:18:17 <ShaneM> http://rdfa.info/wiki/RDFa_Wiki
15:19:05 <Ralph> Manu: the short form we prefer to cite is http://rdfa.info/wiki
15:19:19 <Ralph> ... go to Tutorials; add examples there
15:19:39 <Ralph> Shane: I don't seem to have edit access
15:19:44 <Ralph> Manu: I'll check the permissions
15:19:59 <Ralph> ACTION: Manu check edit permissions on rdfa.info/wiki
15:20:54 <Ralph> Shane: there is an hcard example already, but how about vcard ?
15:21:26 <Ralph> Mark: superceded by foaf?
15:21:38 <Ralph> Manu: some (large?) overlap but there are differences
15:21:49 <Ralph> Mark: but foaf has deployment and vcard really doesn't
15:22:01 <Ralph> Shane: how about RSS?
15:22:08 <Steven> +1 to RSS
15:22:15 <Steven> +100 to RSS in fact
15:22:20 <Ralph> Mark: SearchMonkey has an RSS+RDFa mode
15:22:40 <Ralph> ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa
15:22:57 <ShaneM> FWIW I tried to do some RSS annotation in this page: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Drafts/
15:23:24 <Ralph> Manu: next can think about some javascript tools to generate the markup for some of these
15:23:39 <Ralph> ... would be nice to have a unified architecture to create these wizards
15:24:08 <Ralph> ... is there something already in existence we could use for this?
15:24:26 <Ralph> Mark: yes, we have an ajax library that would be suitable
15:24:48 <Ralph> Manu: extensible to other formats?
15:24:50 <Ralph> Mark: yes
15:25:19 <Ralph> ... new version no longer requires a browser plug-in
15:25:31 <Ralph> ... might be ready within the next month
15:25:53 <Ralph> ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning
15:27:47 <Ralph> Manu: anything we want to work with MikeK on operator?
15:28:04 <Ralph> Shane: he's focusing right now on changing the way operators are invoked
15:28:30 <Ralph> ... I'd like to see a way to map in well-known handlers for RDF vocabularies
15:28:44 <Ralph> ... unfortunately they don't currently detect all RDFa
15:29:12 <Ralph> Manu: Mike has been very open to accepting patches
15:29:21 <Ralph> ... he'd really like someone to collaborate with him
15:30:25 <Ralph> ... anyone have any spare cycles to work with him?
15:31:34 <Ralph> Mark: my plan is to finish what I've been working on and document it
15:31:56 <Ralph> ... once it's working, I will throw it open for discussion
15:32:15 <Ralph> ... I have formats for jason, for sparql, ...
15:32:45 <Ralph> ... I'd be happy to talk with Mike after I have this stable and working
15:33:31 <Ralph> Manu: the demos you did, Mark, in your Google talk would make wonderful 5-minute snips
15:33:42 <Ralph> ... to help people 'get' RDFa and why it's so useful
15:33:57 <Ralph> Steven: Ben had some demos about adding RDFa to digg and others
15:34:16 <Ralph> ... at least, I heard that he did
15:34:44 <Ralph> Mark: may be a demo that I did
15:34:45 <markbirbeck> http://code.google.com/p/ubiquity-rdfa/wiki/TutorialIntroduction
15:36:16 <Ralph> Manu: my suggestion is several 5-minute screencasts
15:37:54 <msporny> Shane: xvidcap + Blender + audacity
15:38:33 <Ralph> s/Shane:/Manu: to create screencasts, I use/
15:39:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph
15:39:09 <Steven> +1
15:39:48 <Steven> Tidy for µf
15:39:57 <Ralph> Manu: what do you think about Ben's idea to create a web service that accepts an HTML page containing microformat data and outputting an RDFa formatted page?
15:40:05 <Ralph> ufTidy :)
15:40:33 <Ralph> Shane: we only define RDFa in the context of XHTML
15:40:46 <Ralph> ... most uf users are using HTML, not XHTML
15:41:03 <Ralph> ... tidy does an ok job of trying really hard to fix HTML, but it can break it
15:41:53 <Ralph> ... [unfortunately] there's a perception out there that XHTML isn't sufficiently portable
15:42:23 <Ralph> Mark: I give priority to getting RDFa into drupal, flickr, upcoming.org, etc.
15:43:12 <Ralph> Manu: I agree with Mark.  Don't want to reignite a uf vs. RDFa war
15:43:46 <Ralph> ... let's focus on getting people to use RDFa rather than converting people who are using uf
15:44:07 <Ralph> Shane: one way to get a bigger win is to approach the tool and environment maintainers
15:44:19 <Ralph> ... let's help them
15:44:33 <Ralph> ... operator is a priority for me because it enables the _use_ of RDFa
15:45:10 <Ralph> ... getting _browsers_ to do something with RDF[a] will make RDF[a] truly useful
15:45:26 <Ralph> Steven: travel sites can offer a link to book a hotel and earn money
15:45:43 <Ralph> ... if someone books a flight or a hotel by following a link in a browser
15:45:59 <Ralph> ... RDFa provides a model for earning money this way
15:49:06 <Ralph> Manu: how about the MSIE folk?
15:49:21 <Ralph> Shane: MSIE doesn't really support XHTML yet
15:50:22 <Ralph> ... however, it would not take very long to define an HTML profile for RDFa
15:50:57 <Ralph> Steven: there's no reason why browsers couldn't recognize @xmlns: even if they think the document is HTML
15:51:02 <Ralph> ... it's just a token
15:51:19 <Ralph> ... we don't really require namespace processing in the DOM
15:51:30 <Ralph> ... the current javascript stuff is all working on the DOM already
15:52:08 <Ralph> Shane: @lang vs. @xml:lang
15:52:13 <Ralph> Mark: yeah, that's a tricky one
15:52:40 <Ralph> ... MSIE actually disallows checking for @xml:lang, though it does allow other @xml:* attributes
15:55:28 <Ralph> [adjourned]
15:55:42 <Zakim> -Ralph
15:55:45 <Zakim> -Steven
15:55:46 <Zakim> -ShaneM
15:55:48 <Zakim> -Manu
15:55:48 <Zakim> -markbirbeck
15:55:48 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
15:55:49 <Zakim> Attendees were Ralph, ShaneM, Manu, markbirbeck, Steven
15:55:54 <Ralph> rrsagent, please draft minutes
15:55:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph
15:55:55 <Ralph> zakim, bye
15:55:55 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdfa
15:56:26 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye
15:56:26 <RRSAgent> I see 11 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-actions.rdf :
15:56:26 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben followup with Fabien on getting his RDFa GRDDL transform transferred to W3C [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action01] [1]
15:56:26 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-irc#T15-03-10
15:56:26 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to reach out to Slashdot and attempt to get RDFa integrated into Slashdot. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action10] [2]
15:56:26 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-irc#T15-03-24
15:56:26 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot [3]
15:56:26 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-irc#T15-04-11
15:56:26 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] [4]
15:56:26 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-irc#T15-06-16
15:56:26 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu write haudio examples for wiki [5]
15:56:26 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-irc#T15-17-12
15:56:26 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [6]
15:56:26 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-irc#T15-17-19
15:56:26 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Steven write vevent examples for wiki [7]
15:56:26 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-irc#T15-17-27
15:56:26 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shane write geolocation examples for wiki [8]
15:56:26 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-irc#T15-17-40
15:56:26 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu check edit permissions on rdfa.info/wiki [9]
15:56:26 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-irc#T15-19-59
15:56:26 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [10]
15:56:26 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-irc#T15-22-40
15:56:26 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [11]
15:56:26 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-irc#T15-25-53
15:56:36 <msporny> Thanks for scribing yet again, Ralph! :)