13:50:22 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #bpwg
13:50:22 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-bpwg-irc
13:50:24 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:50:24 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #bpwg
13:50:26 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be BPWG
13:50:26 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see MWI_BPWG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 10 minutes
13:50:27 <trackbot> Meeting: Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference
13:50:27 <trackbot> Date: 26 June 2008
13:50:41 <francois> Chair: DKA
13:50:59 <francois> Regrets: Jo, Adam, EdM, Kai, Murari, Bryan, Aaron, Pontus, Chaals, rob, Soonho, abel, MartinJ, Yeliz
13:52:06 <francois> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Jun/0062.html
13:55:54 <Zakim> MWI_BPWG()10:00AM has now started
13:56:01 <Zakim> + +1.585.278.aaaa
13:56:21 <jeffs> zakim, aaa is jeffs
13:56:21 <Zakim> sorry, jeffs, I do not recognize a party named 'aaa'
13:57:05 <jeffs> zakim, aaaa is jeffs
13:57:05 <Zakim> +jeffs; got it
13:59:15 <Zakim> +DKA
13:59:23 <DKA> zakim, who is here?
13:59:23 <Zakim> On the phone I see jeffs, DKA
13:59:24 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, jeffs, DKA, francois, trackbot, matt, dom
14:00:05 <Zakim> +francois
14:01:13 <DKA> zakim, who is here?
14:01:13 <Zakim> On the phone I see jeffs, DKA, francois
14:01:14 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, jeffs, DKA, francois, trackbot, matt, dom
14:02:01 <DKA> zakim, who is here?
14:02:01 <Zakim> On the phone I see jeffs, DKA, francois
14:02:01 <Scott> Scott has joined #bpwg
14:02:02 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, jeffs, DKA, francois, trackbot, matt, dom
14:02:05 <DKA> zakim, who is here?
14:02:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see jeffs, DKA, francois
14:02:06 <Zakim> On IRC I see Scott, Zakim, RRSAgent, jeffs, DKA, francois, trackbot, matt, dom
14:02:26 <DKA> zakim, who is here?
14:02:26 <Zakim> On the phone I see jeffs, DKA, francois
14:02:27 <francois> Regrets+ AlanTai
14:02:28 <Zakim> On IRC I see Scott, Zakim, RRSAgent, jeffs, DKA, francois, trackbot, matt, dom
14:02:49 <SeanP> SeanP has joined #bpwg
14:02:53 <miguel> miguel has joined #bpwg
14:03:17 <Zakim> +francois.a
14:03:20 <DKA> zakim, who is here?
14:03:21 <Zakim> On the phone I see jeffs, DKA, francois, francois.a
14:03:27 <Zakim> On IRC I see miguel, SeanP, Scott, Zakim, RRSAgent, jeffs, DKA, francois, trackbot, matt, dom
14:03:33 <eman> eman has joined #bpwg
14:03:38 <francois> zakim, francois.a is really heiko
14:03:38 <Zakim> +heiko; got it
14:03:43 <DKA> zakim, who is here?
14:03:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see jeffs, DKA, francois, heiko
14:03:59 <Zakim> On IRC I see eman, miguel, SeanP, Scott, Zakim, RRSAgent, jeffs, DKA, francois, trackbot, matt, dom
14:04:11 <hgerlach> hgerlach has joined #bpwg
14:04:37 <Zakim> +SeanP
14:04:54 <Zakim> + +98439aabb
14:05:09 <francois> zakim, aabb is miguel
14:05:09 <Zakim> +miguel; got it
14:05:16 <Zakim> + +0774762aacc
14:05:18 <DKA> zakim, who is here?
14:05:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see jeffs, DKA, francois, heiko, SeanP, miguel, +0774762aacc
14:05:20 <Zakim> On IRC I see hgerlach, eman, miguel, SeanP, Scott, Zakim, RRSAgent, jeffs, DKA, francois, trackbot, matt, dom
14:05:38 <DKA> zakim, aacc is scott
14:05:38 <Zakim> +scott; got it
14:05:44 <DKA> zakim, who is here?
14:05:44 <Zakim> On the phone I see jeffs, DKA, francois, heiko, SeanP, miguel, scott
14:05:45 <Zakim> On IRC I see hgerlach, eman, miguel, SeanP, Scott, Zakim, RRSAgent, jeffs, DKA, francois, trackbot, matt, dom
14:06:01 <dom> zakim, code?
14:06:01 <Zakim> the conference code is 2794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), dom
14:06:07 <Zakim> +Dom
14:06:24 <francois> Scribe: francois
14:06:29 <francois> ScribeNick: francois
14:06:59 <francois> DKA: The agenda was a bag of topics not necessarily in the good order.
14:07:11 <francois> ... First thing I'd like to address today is the rechartering
14:07:18 <francois> Topic: Rechartering of the group
14:07:18 <DKA> Topic: Re-chartering
14:07:29 <dom> ACTION-776?
14:07:29 <trackbot> ACTION-776 -- François Daoust to start the rechartering process -- due 2008-06-23 -- OPEN
14:07:29 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/776
14:07:39 <francois> DKA: To switch CT from informative to normative
14:08:13 <DKA> Scibe: Dan
14:08:17 <DKA> Scribenick: DKA
14:08:31 <DKA> Francois: new charter should go to the AC on Monday. Review period takes us to July the 28th.
14:08:41 <DKA> Francois: Link to new charter forthcoming:
14:08:46 <francois> -> http://www.w3.org/2008/06/MWBP-WG-charter.html Updated charter to review
14:09:27 <DKA> Topic: CT Guidelines
14:09:32 <francois> DKA: OK, what's happening on the CT guidelines
14:10:01 <DKA> Francois: We had a call on Tuesday. Problem is the following: We have one remaining issue left from f2f where we made "great" progress.
14:10:18 <DKA> Francois: The remaining issue will best be addressed once we see all the changes to the document.\
14:10:25 <DKA> Francois: We need an updated document.
14:10:28 <DKA> Regrets +Jo
14:10:31 <DKA> Regrets: +Jo
14:11:03 <DKA> Francois: The problem is that Jo is so lazy^h^h^h^hbusy that he can't update the document.
14:11:15 <dom> Regrets:Jo, Adam, EdM, Kai, Murari, Bryan, Aaron, Pontus, Chaals, rob, Soonho, abel, MartinJ, Yeliz, AlanTai
14:11:20 <dom> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:11:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-bpwg-minutes.html dom
14:11:31 <DKA> Francois: Don't think we can resolve the remaining issue before we get the updated draft.
14:11:44 <DKA> DKA: Any indication from Jo on the draft eta?
14:11:49 <DKA> Francois: Within weeks.
14:12:03 <dom> jeffs, the remaining issue is ISSUE-242
14:12:06 <dom> ISSUE-242?
14:12:06 <trackbot> ISSUE-242 -- User expression of persistent and session preferences -- OPEN
14:12:06 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/242
14:12:27 <achuter> achuter has joined #bpwg
14:12:58 <DKA> Francois: Jo should prioritize mobile web best practices 1.0 and mobileOK basic tests ahead ot CT.
14:13:22 <DKA> DKA: Agree with that priority but it's crucial to get out a LC draft of the CT document ASAP.
14:13:46 <DKA> Francois: Yes, but the real goal is to publish the Last Call by end of July. If possible sooner would be better.
14:14:01 <DKA> DKA: I would prefer sooner.
14:14:01 <francois> DKA: Sooner would be much better indeed!
14:14:11 <hgerlach> hgerlach has joined #bpwg
14:14:13 <DKA> DKA: Any way we can speed it up?
14:14:42 <DKA> Francois: We need to have some discussion on the mailing list on the remaining issues - will start soon.
14:15:03 <francois> DKA: any other comment on CT?
14:15:14 <francois> Topic: ETSI liaison
14:15:28 <francois> DKA: Who wants to talk about that?
14:15:41 <francois> ... I think Jo and I took a joint action to do something about that
14:15:58 <francois> ... on the last SC call
14:16:50 <Zakim> +??P22
14:17:20 <francois> ... I think that Jo and I need to discuss that a little bit before we can come back to the group
14:17:32 <francois> ... Let's move on
14:17:34 <Zakim> +??P25
14:17:44 <dom> ISSUE: Respond to ETSI liaison
14:17:44 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-267 - Respond to ETSI liaison ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/267/edit .
14:18:06 <francois> Topic: Accessibility document
14:18:09 <manrique> manrique has joined #bpwg
14:18:18 <francois> DKA: Alan issued a new draft on Tuesday, thanks.
14:18:41 <francois> alan: There's a changelog
14:19:12 <dom> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Jun/0061.html Alan's mail on Mobile accessibility document, Version 24 June 2008
14:19:27 <francois> DKA: The main topics we've talked about during the F2F have been taken cared of, I think.
14:19:42 <francois> ... You scoped down the together document to a mere note.
14:19:55 <francois> ... You moved the empty stuff to the end of the pages.
14:20:06 <francois> ... Would you like to call out any specific thing?
14:20:38 <jeffs> should have some form of audience section
14:20:39 <francois> alan: The audience section. What do other people think about it?
14:20:54 <francois> ... It's gone, should I put it back?
14:21:16 <francois> DKA: I don't think it's worth bothering with it right now.
14:22:10 <jeffs> IMHO shold explicitly state audience, even if very short statement
14:22:16 <francois> alan: the audience is really the same as the one that would normally read WCAG and MWBP.
14:22:34 <francois> DKA: I think we should not worry about that issue for this draft.
14:22:43 <francois> ... I'd rather we focus on the content
14:23:03 <jeffs> IMHO all such docs should explicitly state audience from which they proceed, even if very short statement
14:23:07 <francois> ... Eventually, it needs an audience back, I agree.
14:24:03 <francois> alan: let's go through my points. Francois replied he thought the Audience section should go.
14:24:26 <francois> ... There's another section entitled "Managing Overlapping requirements".
14:24:33 <francois> ... "Benefits" could be clearer
14:25:14 <francois> DKA: francois?
14:25:51 <francois> francois: would love to see "benefits" in the title, but can't find any cool title with "benifit" in it, so I suggest we just leave it as it is
14:25:59 <francois> s/benifit/benefit
14:26:10 <francois> DKA: yes, agree, let's leave it as it is
14:26:32 <francois> alan: How to use this document. There are links and a table.
14:28:03 <francois> ... Francois mentioned the title are too long. I think it's right. We may use the short titles instead of the long titles.
14:28:18 <francois> DKA: I think we should use the bullet list for now.
14:28:53 <francois> alan: OK, this can be changed really easily.
14:29:33 <francois> DKA: From the purpose of clarity, the table is an optimization.
14:29:34 <Zakim> -achuter
14:29:59 <DKA> Alan - it's a nice table!
14:30:18 <Zakim> +??P22
14:30:53 <francois> ... but from the purpose of clarity, we should have the text. It's more important for the reader.
14:31:05 <francois> ... Or we could keep both.
14:31:26 <jeffs> is it broken? if not, leave it alone
14:31:41 <francois> ... I'm erring on the side of "If we can afford not to make changes to this document before publishing, let's not make changes"
14:32:02 <francois> ... So my point was: Alan, you can keep both, I'd prefer the text
14:32:30 <francois> alan: Then, there's a section called "Differences between WCAG and MWBP" which was renamed
14:32:50 <jeffs> if focus of msg is diffs, call it that
14:32:55 <francois> ... to state that WCAG uses priorities and level where MWBP don't
14:32:56 <yeliz> yeliz has joined #bpwg
14:33:23 <francois> DKA: We could say "Structural differences between WCAG and MWBP"
14:33:40 <francois> ... because there are lots of other differences
14:34:10 <francois> alan: Then, Francois' comments.
14:34:37 <Zakim> +??P29
14:34:40 <francois> ... "Relationship" disappeared from the title of the document.
14:34:47 <yeliz> zakim, ??P29 is yeliz
14:34:47 <Zakim> +yeliz; got it
14:35:01 <francois> ... At one time, it was because it was to be about WCAG and MWBP together.
14:35:23 <francois> DKA: I don't know that we have to put "Relationship" in there. It's implied
14:35:26 <francois> q+
14:35:48 <francois> ack francois
14:35:50 <DKA> ack franc
14:36:39 <dom> (good point, indeed)
14:37:15 <yeliz> q+
14:37:25 <francois> francois: Without "Relationship", when you reference the document or list is somewhere, it seems to be the fusion of both rec
14:37:39 <francois> DKA: OK, I'm happy to put "Relationship" back
14:37:42 <francois> Alan: OK
14:38:12 <DKA> ack yel
14:38:22 <francois> Alan: Next, I added the Contents link at the top of the navigation page
14:38:46 <francois> ... but it's not consistent with the other pages
14:38:58 <dom> "Great Relationships" maybe, then?
14:39:08 <francois> Yeliz: Coming back to the title, what about "Synergies" instead of "Relationship"?
14:39:58 <francois> DKA: Jo would kill me if we do that. Seriously, I think we should avoid it as it's a kind of a Buzz word
14:40:20 <francois> ... I suggest we leave "Relationship" for the time being, and propose that you raise this again a bit later on.
14:40:53 <francois> ... Back to the "Contents" link, I think I agree with Francois, and that we should remove the link to be consistent with the other pages.
14:40:58 <yeliz> zakim, mute yeliz
14:40:58 <Zakim> yeliz should now be muted
14:40:59 <francois> Alan: OK.
14:41:55 <francois> ... In each page, the links in the "Nothing" section, the links for the SC can't target anywhere in the doc because there's nowhere to point to.
14:42:06 <francois> ... That's confusing. What could we do?
14:43:53 <jeffs> consistency in link targets will result in document that is easier to actually use
14:44:27 <francois> francois: [emphasizing the confusion]. Proposes to complete the list in the Something section to link down in the document
14:44:32 <yeliz> zakim, unmute yeliz
14:44:33 <Zakim> yeliz should no longer be muted
14:45:39 <francois> alan: There will be consistent because the Everything section will be deleted
14:45:40 <francois> q+
14:45:54 <francois> s/There/They/
14:45:58 <DKA> q?
14:45:59 <francois> ack francois
14:46:02 <DKA> ack francoi
14:46:05 <DKA> q?
14:46:31 <francois> -> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/Accessibility/drafts/ED-mwbp-wcag-20080624/mwbp-wcag20.html#summary_work Summary from MWBP to WCAG 2.0
14:47:26 <francois> francois: just so that we agree, because there's no "Everything" section in the page I just pasted in IRC
14:47:46 <francois> alan: OK. It's organized differently in this page.
14:47:54 <francois> ... I agree, it's not consistent here.
14:48:45 <francois> DKA: We could add explicit text such as "WCAG, section 1.1.1" instead of "1.1.1"
14:49:16 <francois> ... it's not that elegant but I don't see how we can do otherwise
14:50:05 <francois> francois: fine with this approach, just think we need to be consistent in all pages
14:50:44 <francois> alan: further down, there is both a "Refer to" link and a "Back to list of" link which point more or less to the same place
14:51:02 <francois> ... I think the "Refer to" link should be taken out, useful to edit the document, but not for readers
14:52:36 <francois> DKA: And then Francois listed some typo fixes which I think you can just include without us having to review the document.
14:53:14 <francois> ... My perspective is that I'm happy with the document as it is, modulo the discussion we just had, and I'm ready to delegate the doc to Alan
14:53:28 <francois> ... so that he pushes forward to Public Working Draft
14:54:05 <DKA> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: We publish a public working draft of the current version of the MWBP-WCAG document (Alan's latest, with agreed changes from today's discussion implemented).
14:54:15 <francois> alan: Tomorrow we'll discuss this in the EOWG, but I don't expect any major changes.
14:54:16 <achuter> +1
14:54:47 <DKA> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: We publish a public working draft of the current version of the MWBP-WCAG document (Alan's latest, with agreed changes from today's discussion implemented).
14:55:03 <francois> DKA: yes, unless there's a huge problem, I think we should publish it! Francois, could you take an action to do that?
14:55:07 <francois> francois: sure!
14:55:10 <DKA> +1
14:55:21 <dom> +1
14:55:22 <jeffs> +1
14:55:23 <yeliz> +1
14:55:25 <hgerlach> +1
14:55:31 <francois> RESOLUTION: We publish a public working draft of the current version of the MWBP-WCAG document (Alan's latest, with agreed changes from today's discussion implemented).
14:56:08 <francois> alan: It would be good at some stage if Charles for instance would review the document completely.
14:56:44 <francois> DKA: Sure, but I think we need to plan an outreach on the doc. I plan to blog about it on Betavine for instance
14:57:05 <francois> alan: and I'll [scribe missed that]
14:57:35 <DKA> zakim, mute alan
14:57:35 <Zakim> sorry, DKA, I do not know which phone connection belongs to alan
14:57:38 <achuter> Alan will be presenting on it at ICCHP in Linz next month
14:57:44 <achuter> zakim, mute me
14:57:44 <Zakim> achuter should now be muted
14:57:44 <francois> DKA: Thanks a lot Alan!
14:57:54 <yeliz> zakim, mute yeliz
14:57:54 <Zakim> yeliz should now be muted
14:58:23 <dom> [I didn't send any new comment this week :) ]
14:58:42 <francois> Topic: mobileOK Basic Tests
14:58:45 <DKA> zakim, who is speaking?
14:58:58 <Zakim> DKA, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: DKA (27%), francois (17%), ??P25 (14%)
14:59:02 <dom> "send comments to public-bpwg-comments@w3.org (with public archive) through 30 June 2008"
14:59:05 <francois> DKA: When is the review period supposed to end?
14:59:55 <francois> ... 30th. Right. We're quite close to the end of our comments period, and I don't think there were any new comment.
15:00:21 <francois> ... I think we'll wait for the 30th in the hope that noone will step in with damaging comments...
15:00:37 <francois> Topic: Quick report on Device Description Working Group
15:01:03 <francois> DKA: DDWG had their last F2F last week, and approved publication of their documents.
15:01:11 <francois> ... So basically, they are done with their charter
15:01:36 <francois> ... I think it's important to know that, you know, working groups do end from time to time! :)
15:01:52 <dom> ack me
15:01:57 <francois> ... Any thoughts on this?
15:02:36 <francois> dom: Happy this is completed. Big service for the community. And hopefully, it would serve us for the Mobile Web Application Best Practices.
15:02:52 <francois> ... It still needs to go through the process though
15:03:15 <francois> Topic: mobileOK Checker
15:03:19 <miguel> ack me
15:03:22 <francois> DKA: Any further update from the checker
15:04:20 <francois> miguel: We had a call yesterday. We reviewed of Bugzilla bugs, closed some of them, and saw how to address other. We plan to have another call next week. We've distributed the workload among participants.
15:05:03 <francois> DKA: Great. I added a group participant from Vodafone Spain. Did he make contact?
15:05:46 <francois> miguel: yes, we had some email exchanges from Oscar, but he couldn't make it for the call. He asked for the minutes of the call, so hopefully will be among us next week.
15:05:53 <francois> ... Any question on the checker?
15:06:07 <dom> q+
15:06:11 <dom> ack me
15:06:13 <DKA> ack dom
15:06:31 <francois> ... Are we expecting a new release of the checker before mid-July so that we can make this part of the annoucement?
15:07:16 <francois> dom: we're targeting this, but the changes introduced by the last call of mobileOK Basic Tests is hard to address
15:07:40 <francois> DKA: OK, so this brings us to the mid-July press release. What's the status?
15:07:51 <DKA> q?
15:08:14 <francois> dom: Current plan is to focus on MWBP based on XHTML Basic 1.1 with an emphasis on the work on Mobile Web Application Best Practices.
15:08:43 <francois> ... We clearly need an updated draft of MWABP by then to publish a FPWD of the doc at the same time.
15:09:11 <francois> ... We need testimonials from you guys, feel free to follow up with Marie-Claire
15:09:22 <hgerlach> hgerlach has joined #bpwg
15:09:39 <francois> ... Process-wise, I can't tell you much, but we're in a good shape for MWBP. Unless there's a problem with XHTML Basic 1.1, we should be fine.
15:10:06 <francois> DKA: I assume Adam is working on an updated version of MWABP.
15:10:41 <francois> ... I think we basically covered the agenda items I wanted to address today.
15:10:54 <achuter> zakim, unmute me
15:10:55 <Zakim> achuter should no longer be muted
15:11:17 <francois> ... Remaining stuff is issues and actions, and propose to postpone that to next week
15:11:22 <dom> [I just sent a list of actions that I think can be closed easily en masse next week ]
15:11:32 <Zakim> -jeffs
15:11:35 <francois> ... unless someone has actions that he wants to see closed?
15:11:41 <dom> ack me
15:12:02 <francois> dom: I sent this to the member list as it's administrative and boring
15:12:35 <francois> ... I looked at the good candidates that could be closed easily. I suggest we close them "en masse" next week.
15:12:59 <dom> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: close all the action items identified in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-bpwg/2008Jun/0069.html without futher discussion
15:13:30 <DKA> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Close the actions enumerated by Dom in his email dated 26-June-2008 unless anyone objects by EOD 30-June-2008.
15:13:49 <francois> +1
15:14:09 <DKA> +1
15:14:18 <francois> RESOLUTION: Close the actions enumerated by Dom in his email dated 26-June-2008 unless anyone objects by EOD 30-June-2008.
15:14:30 <dom> ack me
15:14:33 <francois> DKA: Thanks dom
15:15:28 <francois> dom: Just, as a reminder, when you take an action, please take 5mn before the call to review it, update the due date if necessary (it shouldn't!), update the status to "Pending review" when done.
15:15:43 <francois> DKA: absolutely right Dom!
15:15:48 <francois> DKA: AOB?
15:15:59 <Zakim> -achuter
15:16:00 <francois> ... OK, session adjourned!
15:16:03 <Zakim> -heiko
15:16:03 <miguel> bye
15:16:07 <manrique> bye
15:16:09 <hgerlach> bye
15:16:10 <Zakim> -scott
15:16:11 <Zakim> -francois
15:16:11 <Zakim> -miguel
15:16:12 <Zakim> -Dom
15:16:13 <Zakim> -DKA
15:16:14 <Zakim> -SeanP
15:16:20 <Zakim> -yeliz
15:16:22 <Zakim> -??P25
15:16:24 <Zakim> MWI_BPWG()10:00AM has ended
15:16:31 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.585.278.aaaa, jeffs, DKA, francois, heiko, SeanP, +98439aabb, miguel, +0774762aacc, scott, Dom, achuter, yeliz
15:17:03 <Scott> Scott has left #bpwg
15:17:09 <francois> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:17:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-bpwg-minutes.html francois
15:17:18 <dom> dom has left #bpwg
15:23:07 <francois> i/DKA: any other comment on CT/ScribeNick: francois/
15:23:11 <francois> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:23:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-bpwg-minutes.html francois