IRC log of sml on 2008-06-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

08:06:56 [RRSAgent]
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08:06:56 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/06/25-sml-irc
08:07:35 [ginny]
rrsagent, generate minutes
08:07:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/25-sml-minutes.html ginny
08:07:38 [ginny]
rrsagent, make log public
08:08:24 [Kirk]
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08:09:58 [ginny]
meeting: W3C SML Face-to-Face of 2008-06-25
08:10:00 [ginny]
scribe: ginny
08:10:01 [ginny]
scribenick: ginny
08:10:03 [ginny]
chair: John
08:10:04 [ginny]
agenda: Address overflow bugs from previous 2 days
08:10:06 [ginny]
regrets: Pratul, Jim
08:10:27 [ginny]
zakim, list attendees
08:10:27 [Zakim]
sorry, ginny, I don't know what conference this is
08:10:42 [ginny]
zakim, this is SML
08:10:42 [Zakim]
ginny, I see XML_SMLWG()3:00AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be SML".
08:11:10 [johnarwe_]
zakim, this is sml
08:11:10 [Zakim]
johnarwe_, I see XML_SMLWG()3:00AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be sml".
08:11:36 [ginny]
zakim, go away
08:11:36 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'go away', ginny
08:11:43 [johnarwe_]
zakim, pardon us
08:11:43 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'pardon us', johnarwe_
08:11:49 [ginny]
zakim, bye
08:11:49 [Zakim]
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08:12:02 [Zakim]
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08:12:12 [johnarwe_]
zakim, this is sml
08:12:12 [Zakim]
johnarwe_, I see XML_SMLWG()3:00AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be sml".
08:12:33 [yzhou]
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08:13:01 [johnarwe_]
zakim, this is sml
08:13:01 [Zakim]
ok, johnarwe_; that matches XML_SMLWG()3:00AM
08:13:49 [yzhou]
Thanks
08:14:52 [Zakim]
+[IBM_Watson]
08:15:32 [johnarwe_]
zakim, [IBM_Watson] is yzhou
08:15:32 [Zakim]
+yzhou; got it
08:17:16 [MSM]
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08:17:52 [MSM]
test
08:19:57 [johnarwe_]
yu chen, please review the proposals in 5788 and 5790 and tell us if you have any comments.
08:20:17 [johnarwe_]
the rest of us either have (last night) or are (now) doing so.
08:25:45 [MSM]
zakim, who's here?
08:25:45 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P0, yzhou
08:25:46 [Zakim]
On IRC I see MSM, yzhou, Zakim, Kirk, RRSAgent, ginny, johnarwe_, trackbot, ht
08:25:50 [MSM]
zakim, who's muted?
08:25:50 [Zakim]
I see no one muted
08:27:28 [MSM]
zakim, ??P0 is Edinburgh
08:27:28 [Zakim]
+Edinburgh; got it
08:27:51 [MSM]
Zakim, Edinburgh also has johnarwe_ , ginny , Kirk , MSM
08:27:51 [Zakim]
+johnarwe_, , ginny, , Kirk, , MSM; got it
08:28:46 [ginny]
Topic: Bug 5788
08:30:08 [ginny]
RESOLUTION: we have consensus to approve the proposal in comment #1; mark editorial; mark needsReview when fixed
08:30:09 [MSM]
zakim, who's here?
08:30:09 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Edinburgh, yzhou
08:30:11 [Zakim]
Edinburgh has Edinburgh, johnarwe_, , ginny, , Kirk, , MSM
08:30:13 [Zakim]
On IRC I see MSM, yzhou, Zakim, Kirk, RRSAgent, ginny, johnarwe_, trackbot, ht
08:30:16 [ginny]
Topic: Bug 5790
08:30:25 [MSM]
zakim, Edinburgh has johnarwe_, ginny, Kirk, MSM
08:30:25 [Zakim]
johnarwe_ was already listed in Edinburgh, MSM
08:30:26 [Zakim]
ginny was already listed in Edinburgh, MSM
08:30:26 [johnarwe_]
Some editorial suggestions:
08:30:26 [johnarwe_]
- tweak comma placement
08:30:26 [johnarwe_]
- move (impl-defined) parenthetical to end of sentence
08:30:26 [johnarwe_]
- change "should be read" to "to be read" or similar... want the sense of must, without using rfc2219 keywords like must or should.
08:30:27 [Zakim]
Kirk was already listed in Edinburgh, MSM
08:30:28 [Zakim]
MSM was already listed in Edinburgh, MSM
08:32:11 [ginny]
RESOLUTION: Consensus is to approve the proposal with the above editorial tweaks; mark editorial; no needsReview necessary
08:32:46 [Kirk2]
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08:33:22 [ginny]
Topic: Bug 5721
08:41:21 [ginny]
MSM: what sense is it to have an sml:acyclic attribute on an element whose type does not allow an sml:ref attribute (ie.g.., no xs:anyAttribute)
08:41:35 [ginny]
... it does not make sense
08:42:09 [Kumar]
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08:42:40 [ginny]
... model will be invalid if sml:ref is used in the instance
08:46:25 [ginny]
Ginny: should keep paragraph together and move note to end
08:47:01 [ginny]
MSM: note contains example that does not achieve its intent
08:48:36 [ginny]
... "does not choose to include a reference" should be reworded
08:50:32 [ginny]
MSM: author is not providing a target and signalling that the absence of a target is not an error
08:52:27 [johnarwe_]
It is a consequence of the preceding that this specification assigns no meaning to the sml:nilref attribute when it is used on an element that is not an SML reference. Model validators MAY choose to warn their invokers should they detect this condition in a document.
08:52:35 [johnarwe_]
08:52:35 [johnarwe_]
Note:
08:52:35 [johnarwe_]
08:52:36 [johnarwe_]
sml:nilref may be useful in the case where the schema author defines a complex type with sml:ref with a fixed value "true", but understands that not every instance will have a target.
08:56:12 [johnarwe_]
one more time:
08:56:13 [johnarwe_]
It is a consequence of the preceding that this specification assigns no meaning to the sml:nilref attribute when it is used on an element that is not an SML reference. Model validators MAY choose to warn their invokers should they detect this condition in a document.
08:56:13 [johnarwe_]
08:56:13 [johnarwe_]
Note:
08:56:13 [johnarwe_]
08:56:15 [johnarwe_]
sml:nilref may be useful in the case where the schema author defines a complex type specifying sml:ref with a fixed value of "true", but the instance author wants to signal that the absence of a target.
08:59:46 [ginny]
RESOLUTION: use the above text for proposal 1 of Bug 5721
09:02:11 [ginny]
RESOLUTION: change "can be valuable" to "can be useful" in proposal 2 text
09:04:33 [ginny]
MSM: confusing defining an sml reference with recognizing an sml reference by sml:ref = true
09:05:51 [ht]
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09:05:58 [ginny]
... an element type is not an sml reference; the instance is the reference
09:09:24 [johnarwe_]
Defining an element that is not always an SML reference with one of the above constraints can be useful because the decision about whether to include a constraint and the decision about whether to make the element an SML reference can be made independently - some choices made by the schema author, other choices made by the instance document author.
09:12:04 [MSM]
The constraints described above can be useful even on element declarations whose instances are not necessarily / always SML references, because ...
09:13:30 [johnarwe_]
The constraints described above can be useful even on element declarations whose instances are not necessarily SML references,
09:13:30 [johnarwe_]
with one of the above constraints can be useful because the decision about whether to include a constraint and the decision about whether to make the element an SML reference can be made independently - some choices made by the schema author, other choices made by the instance document author.
09:13:51 [johnarwe_]
The constraints described above can be useful even on element declarations whose instances are not necessarily SML references,
09:13:52 [johnarwe_]
because the decision about whether to include a constraint and the decision about whether to make the element an SML reference can be made independently - some choices made by the schema author, other choices made by the instance document author.
09:15:15 [ginny]
RESOLUTION: Replace the text inserted by the fix with the above text for proposal 2; no needsReview necessary
09:15:34 [ginny]
Topic: Bug 5523
09:16:11 [ginny]
Henry has approved the resolution of this bug.
09:16:23 [ginny]
Topic: Bug 5524
09:17:32 [MSM]
http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2007/xml/sml/build/sml.html?content-type=text/html;%20charset=utf-8
09:17:39 [MSM]
http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2007/xml/sml/build/sml-if.html?content-type=text/html;%20charset=utf-8
09:25:17 [ginny]
Henry still prefers another title than "mapping from schema"
09:26:13 [ginny]
RESOLUTION: Henry and Sandy to discuss this and report back to the WG
09:26:23 [ginny]
Topic: Bug 5525
09:29:02 [ginny]
RESOLUTION: Henry and Sandy to discuss this and report back to WG
09:29:08 [ginny]
Topic: 5526
09:29:23 [ginny]
s/5526/Bug 5526/
09:31:54 [ginny]
RESOLUTION: review satisfied
09:32:04 [ginny]
Topic: Bug 5528
09:33:27 [ginny]
s/review/reviewer/
09:33:41 [ginny]
RESOLUTION: reviewer satisfied
09:33:52 [ginny]
Topic: Bug 5519
09:37:47 [ginny]
Henry: need to get a signoff from David also
09:39:50 [ginny]
Henry approves the bug resolution
09:40:26 [ginny]
WG would like to rework the text change
09:40:31 [ginny]
Topic: Bug 5542
09:42:07 [MSM]
working paper: http://www.w3.org/XML/2008/06/sml-bug5542.xml
09:47:15 [ginny]
John's interpretation of MSM"s proposal:
09:47:17 [ginny]
1. SML URI ref scheme: change base URI from impl-dependent to [base URI]
09:47:19 [ginny]
2. Add xml:base to <model> and <document>, replacing smlif:baseURI
09:47:20 [ginny]
3. [base URI] infoset property = source of base URI for absolutization
09:47:56 [ginny]
discussion of xml:base for documents referenced via locator element
09:48:30 [ginny]
... rather than inlined
09:54:09 [ginny]
MSM: xml:base must be explicitly allowed by the schema
09:55:01 [ginny]
if a document is 'located' rather than inlined and contains no xml:base then the xml:base on the <document> is used
09:58:36 [Kirk]
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09:59:26 [ginny]
Henry agrees with above proposal and would like to review the final spec prose
10:01:18 [ginny]
rrsagent, generate minutes
10:01:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/25-sml-minutes.html ginny
10:02:21 [ginny]
Topic: Bug 5546
10:03:11 [ginny]
Henry is satisfied that the WG has reviewed 2557 and concluded that it does not meet our needs
10:03:48 [ginny]
RESOLUTION: reviewer satisfied
10:04:33 [ginny]
Topic: Complete proposal for Bug 5542
10:04:47 [ginny]
s/Complete/Finish/
10:14:26 [ginny]
Discussion of whether schema processors expose xml:base property
10:35:49 [ginny]
rrsagent, generate minutes
10:35:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/25-sml-minutes.html ginny
10:45:32 [ginny]
zakim, list attendees
10:45:32 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been yzhou, Edinburgh, johnarwe_, , ginny, Kirk, MSM
11:15:42 [Zakim]
-yzhou
11:16:00 [ginny]
Topic: Bug 5636
11:28:17 [johnarwe_]
wanted: MSM proposal: Add to 6.3.1 Mapping from schema, paragraph 3: For other schema
11:28:17 [johnarwe_]
components, local-rules is empty.
11:28:36 [ginny]
Proposal: add to end of paragraph 3 in 6.3.1 "For other schema components, local-rules is empty."
11:32:20 [johnarwe_]
tweak to new item 4: Otherwise, the value of the {rules} property is not effected by this specification.
11:33:17 [Kirk]
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11:37:06 [johnarwe_]
proposed chg to 6.3.1 parag 2: This specification assigns no meaning to sch:schema elements if they appear as items in any other location.
11:41:41 [johnarwe_]
proposed append to bug 5636:
11:41:43 [johnarwe_]
f2f consensus is to accept the changes with the following revisions:
11:41:43 [johnarwe_]
11:41:43 [johnarwe_]
Add to 6.3.1 Mapping from schema, paragraph 3: For other schema components, local-rules is empty.
11:41:43 [johnarwe_]
11:41:43 [johnarwe_]
change new item 4: Otherwise, the value of the {rules} property is not effected by this specification.
11:41:44 [johnarwe_]
11:41:46 [johnarwe_]
chg to 6.3.1 parag 2: This specification assigns no meaning to sch:schema elements if they appear as items in any other location.
11:42:13 [johnarwe_]
s/effect/affecgt
11:42:19 [johnarwe_]
s/affecgt/affect
11:44:34 [Zakim]
-Edinburgh
11:44:35 [Zakim]
XML_SMLWG()3:00AM has ended
11:44:36 [Zakim]
Attendees were yzhou, Edinburgh, johnarwe_, , ginny, Kirk, MSM
11:44:47 [ginny]
RESOLUTION: fix per above proposal;
11:46:27 [ginny]
... mark needsReview when done
11:46:36 [ginny]
rrsagent, generate minutes
11:46:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/25-sml-minutes.html ginny
11:46:44 [ginny]
Topic: 5637
11:52:57 [ginny]
RESOLUTION: resolve bug as WorkForMe
12:02:22 [Zakim]
XML_SMLWG()3:00AM has now started
12:02:29 [Zakim]
+julia
12:04:13 [julia]
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12:04:40 [julia]
zakim, who's on the farm
12:04:45 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who's on the farm', julia
12:04:55 [julia]
zakim, who's on the phone
12:04:55 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who's on the phone', julia
12:05:34 [Kumar]
zakim, who
12:05:34 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who', Kumar
12:05:41 [Kumar]
zakim, who is here
12:05:41 [Zakim]
Kumar, you need to end that query with '?'
12:05:44 [julia]
you're right, i am so tired i can hardly keep my head up.
12:05:52 [Kumar]
zakim, who?
12:05:52 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, Kumar.
12:05:56 [Kumar]
zakim, who is here?
12:05:56 [Zakim]
On the phone I see julia
12:05:57 [Zakim]
On IRC I see julia, Kirk, Kumar, Zakim, RRSAgent, ginny, johnarwe_, trackbot
12:06:34 [julia]
julia has left #sml
12:06:39 [Zakim]
-julia
12:06:40 [Zakim]
XML_SMLWG()3:00AM has ended
12:06:40 [Zakim]
Attendees were julia
12:36:29 [johnarwe_]
back from break
12:37:21 [ginny]
Topic: Bug 5546
12:37:33 [ginny]
RESOLUTION: resolve as won't fix
12:40:24 [ginny]
Topic: Continue with Bug 5542
12:40:28 [ht]
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12:44:52 [Kumar]
question for Henry: in your comment #2 in bug# 5542 you said: "the right thing to do is a) require the use of the base URI property and b) encourage, if not mandate, XML Base support.". does this mean that one could use baseURI property without having to also support xml:base?
12:45:39 [ht]
Yes, but that's sort of weak
12:46:40 [ht]
The infoset spec. defines the semantics of the [base URI] property, and it covers things like getting the base URI right if you use a general entity to build an XML document from parts
12:47:23 [ht]
If your parser does that much, getting xml:base support is pretty trivial
13:10:22 [julia]
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13:11:38 [Sandy]
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13:12:08 [ginny]
Discussion of John's 3 options for handling xml:base in the spec
13:12:39 [ht]
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13:12:51 [Zakim]
XML_SMLWG()3:00AM has now started
13:12:58 [Zakim]
+??P22
13:12:59 [Zakim]
+julia
13:13:16 [Zakim]
+Sandy
13:13:37 [johnarwe_]
zakim, ??P2 is Edinburgh
13:13:37 [Zakim]
+Edinburgh; got it
13:13:43 [Kirk]
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13:14:27 [ginny]
base URI for URI resolution:
13:14:28 [ginny]
Rule: mutually exclusive
13:14:30 [ginny]
if smlif:baseURI exists, then sml:base ignored
13:14:31 [ginny]
else sml:base is the only way to get base URI
13:17:07 [ginny]
Option 1: smlif:baseURI optional + deprecated
13:17:09 [ginny]
- interop within MS = MS' choice
13:17:10 [ginny]
- interops MS/others = others' choice
13:17:12 [ginny]
- implementation cost = impl choice, based on desired interop scope (incl MS/not)
13:18:33 [ginny]
Option 2:
13:18:36 [ginny]
- smlif:baseuri required, deprecate in 2.0
13:18:39 [ginny]
- interop with all = consequence of compliance
13:18:39 [ginny]
- more impl cost for all impls at future date
13:18:45 [ginny]
- spec complexity
13:18:54 [ginny]
s/sml:base/xml:base/
13:20:12 [ginny]
Option 3: [base URI] <-- xml:base only
13:20:14 [ginny]
- breaks existing MS instances
13:20:15 [ginny]
- more impl cost for current impls only
13:20:17 [ginny]
- spec simpler
13:21:15 [ginny]
s/Option 2:/Option 2: smlif:baseuri required, deprecate in 2.0/
13:24:02 [julia]
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13:40:01 [ginny]
another point under option 1: stmt of intent to remove smlif:baseURI next version
13:48:00 [ginny]
another point in both option 1 & 2: [base URI] optional + SHOULD
13:50:38 [ginny]
s/get base URI/get base URI from content/
13:51:05 [ginny]
s/sml:base/xml:base/g
13:51:33 [ginny]
rrsagent, generate minutes
13:51:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/25-sml-minutes.html ginny
13:59:23 [ht]
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14:01:48 [Zakim]
-julia
14:01:51 [Zakim]
-Edinburgh
14:01:53 [ginny]
meeting adjourned
14:01:53 [Zakim]
-Sandy
14:01:53 [Zakim]
XML_SMLWG()3:00AM has ended
14:01:54 [Zakim]
Attendees were julia, Sandy, Edinburgh
14:01:56 [ginny]
rrsagent, generate minutes
14:01:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/25-sml-minutes.html ginny
14:04:07 [julia]
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14:04:38 [ht]
Whoa! Bye guys! Nice to meet you!
14:05:27 [johnarwe_]
Henry, do you want your key card? I can come over (I assume) and/or we can do the tour thing.
14:06:00 [ht]
Yes to both -- just come to the front door of the Forum (across the street) and ask them to call me (504440)
14:17:31 [ht]
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15:18:35 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #sml
15:19:07 [Sandy]
rrsagent, bye
15:19:07 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items