12:57:42 RRSAgent has joined #awwsw 12:57:42 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/06/24-awwsw-irc 12:58:06 zakim, this is awwsw 12:58:06 jar286, I see TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be awwsw". 12:58:17 zakim, this will be awwsw 12:58:17 ok, jar286; I see TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes 13:00:29 dbooth has joined #awwsw 13:00:43 TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM has now started 13:00:50 + +1.781.643.aaaa 13:01:01 zakim, + is jar 13:01:01 +jar; got it 13:01:04 zakim, code? 13:01:05 the conference code is 29979 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), dbooth 13:01:22 +DBooth 13:01:24 +Alan_Ruttenberg 13:06:03 +??P0 13:07:12 skw has joined #awwsw 13:07:56 zakim, ? is skw 13:07:56 +skw; got it 13:11:31 no one is scribing 13:12:55 talking about rdf graph / owl axioms vs. interpretation 13:13:04 dbooth calls this two-level 13:13:40 alan: why does what pat says matter? 13:13:56 alan: may be interesting, but in practice what does it mean? 13:14:24 dbooth: semweb arch can only talk about graphs ("1st step") 13:15:32 jar: why is identity important? 13:16:02 dbooth: without identity, we descend into a tarpit (esp. w.r.t. IRs) 13:16:11 dbooth: an IR can have mass 13:16:41 skw: can you give an example? 13:17:23 alanr: i thought we had consensus that IRs don't have mass, why speculate otherwise? 13:18:43 alanr: if anything can be true of something, then the thing is vacuous 13:19:34 skw: q: webarch says 200 is for IRs, so question is, when can I use a 200? 13:20:02 -Alan_Ruttenberg 13:20:03 + +1.617.253.aabb 13:21:58 dbooth: identity on semweb is entirely sets of assertions 13:23:31 alanr has joined #awwsw 13:23:39 zakim, who is here? 13:23:39 On the phone I see jar, DBooth, skw, +1.617.253.aabb 13:23:40 On IRC I see alanr, skw, dbooth, RRSAgent, Zakim, jar286, trackbot 13:23:48 zakim, aabb is alanr 13:23:48 +alanr; got it 13:24:06 zakim, who is here 13:24:06 alanr, you need to end that query with '?' 13:24:13 zakim, who is here? 13:24:13 On the phone I see jar, DBooth, skw, alanr 13:24:14 On IRC I see alanr, skw, dbooth, RRSAgent, Zakim, jar286, trackbot 13:24:50 jar: what's broken, what needs to be fixed? in the normative docs? 13:24:57 jar: why are you bringing this up? 13:25:10 dbooth: because ir discussions have been unproductive... 13:26:21 dbooth: talking about identity is the way to make progress 13:27:05 jar: so what is an example where talking about identity helps? 13:27:57 jar: awwsw was supposed to be about http semantics, not semweb architecture 13:28:10 alanr: no, charter was supposed to be broader 13:29:57 dbooth: denotation of a URI is determined by a particular set of assertions 13:33:08 I think that RDF Model Theoretic semantics are one set of constraints on an interpretation, however.... 13:33:54 discussion of rdf and owl semantics, trying to relate to dbooth's view of 2-level architecture 13:34:15 ... the normative appeal to the URI specs. also (IMO) induce the constraints that arise from the use of URI as refering names... 13:35:05 so... that on the semantic web, many URI are not free to be used to denote other things. 13:39:02 jar: how does uri declaration idea bear on this discussion? 13:39:53 jar: there cannot be an algorithm to determine meaning 13:40:16 dbooth: what about rdf:type? isn't there an algorithm for determining its denotation? 13:41:00 There *must* be an algorithm for determining the first step in the mapping from a URI to what resource it denotes. 13:41:14 alanr: at first i thought that, in absence of CN, when do a GET you get the IR. (whether you can ever know what something denotes?) 13:42:20 skw: what you end up having locally is a different resource than what you [accessed] 13:44:55 skw: this is re the PDF file conundrum 13:46:22 jar: denotation is determined by the interpretation sensu RDF semantics / OWL model theory, not by the graph 13:47:40 dbooth: to find out what rdf:type means, you read the spec - the prose. 13:49:57 Ahah... first one i found in RDF semantics is: rdf:type rdf:type rdf:Property . 13:50:52 alanr: what are the consequences of looking at the spec? 13:51:17 dbooth: you can think of the prose as being a set of assertions 13:51:45 dbooth: then you interpret the assertions 13:52:33 alanr: next step - I test my understanding using a validator and a reasoner 13:56:32 3.3 rdf:type 13:56:33 rdf:type is an instance of rdf:Property that is used to state that a resource is an instance of a class. 13:56:33 A triple of the form: 13:56:33 R rdf:type C 13:56:33 states that C is an instance of rdfs:Class and R is an instance of C. 13:56:33 The rdfs:domain of rdf:type is rdfs:Resource. The rdfs:range of rdf:type is rdfs:Class. 13:56:54 http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-rdf-schema-20040210/#ch_type 14:02:05 -alanr 14:02:15 -DBooth 14:02:16 rrsagent, make logs public 14:02:23 -skw 14:05:52 zakim, list attendees 14:05:52 As of this point the attendees have been +1.781.643.aaaa, jar, DBooth, Alan_Ruttenberg, skw, +1.617.253.aabb, alanr 14:06:18 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:06:18 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/24-awwsw-minutes.html dbooth 14:06:32 rrsagent, pointer 14:06:32 See http://www.w3.org/2008/06/24-awwsw-irc#T14-06-32 14:09:32 zakim, bye 14:09:32 leaving. As of this point the attendees were +1.781.643.aaaa, jar, DBooth, Alan_Ruttenberg, skw, +1.617.253.aabb, alanr 14:09:32 Zakim has left #awwsw 14:10:34 rrsagent, bye 14:10:34 I see no action items