IRC log of xhtml on 2008-06-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

07:45:12 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #xhtml
07:45:12 [RRSAgent]
logging to
07:45:20 [Steven]
rrsagent, make log public
07:45:27 [Steven]
zakim, this will be xhtml
07:45:27 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; I see IA_XHTML2()4:00AM scheduled to start in 15 minutes
07:45:51 [Steven]
Meeting: XHTML2 WG Virtual FtF Day 3
07:45:55 [Steven]
Chair: Roland
07:50:34 [Steven]
07:50:43 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
07:50:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Steven
07:54:00 [oedipus]
oedipus has joined #xhtml
07:55:03 [Roland]
Roland has joined #xhtml
08:01:01 [Zakim]
IA_XHTML2()4:00AM has now started
08:01:08 [Zakim]
08:01:14 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
08:01:16 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
08:01:16 [Zakim]
08:01:33 [Zakim]
08:02:17 [Zakim]
08:03:59 [ShaneM]
08:04:36 [Zakim]
08:04:51 [Steven]
08:06:05 [yamx]
yamx has joined #xhtml
08:06:13 [yamx]
Sorry, late. I will call in.
08:06:48 [Zakim]
08:07:06 [yamx]
Zakim, ??P4 is yamx
08:07:06 [Zakim]
+yamx; got it
08:08:20 [oedipus]
08:10:27 [Steven]
Topic: HTML5 and XHTML 1.*
08:10:42 [oedipus]
associated issue:
08:11:44 [ShaneM]
08:11:54 [ShaneM]
is all the issues
08:13:08 [Steven]
08:13:25 [oedipus]
HTML5 Diff From HTML4 WG Note:
08:13:45 [Steven]
The word "XHTML" doesn't appear in their charter
08:13:51 [oedipus]
"The HTML 5 language has a "custom" HTML syntax that is compatible with HTML 4 and XHTML1 documents published on the Web, but is not compatible with the more esoteric SGML features of HTML 4, such as <em/content/. Documents using this "custom" syntax must be served with the text/html MIME type"
08:14:21 [oedipus]
The other syntax that can be used for HTML 5 is XML. This syntax is compatible with XHTML1 documents and implementations. Documents using this syntax need to be served with an XML MIME type and elements need to be put in the namespace following the rules set forth by the XML specifications. [XML]
08:14:21 [oedipus]
Below is an example document that conforms to the XML syntax of HTML 5. Note that XML documents must have an XML MIME type such as application/xhtml+xml or application/xml.
08:22:01 [yamx]
I am wondering... hmmm..
08:22:10 [Steven_]
Steven_ has joined #xhtml
08:22:19 [yamx]
Their notification is not productive...
08:24:08 [Steven_]
"XHTML™ 1.1 - Module-based XHTML (REC) - track errata, publish third edition as required"
08:25:28 [oedipus]
"This specification is intended to replace XHTML 1.0 as the normative definition of the XML serialisation of the HTML vocabulary. [XHTML10]"
08:28:04 [ShaneM]
I believe our charter is clear - we are responsible for maintaining and evolving XHTML 1 and XHTML 2. The HTML Working Group's charter does not mention XHTML at all.
08:28:16 [yamx]
I agree with Shane.
08:29:09 [Steven_]
Scribe: Steven
08:29:26 [oedipus]
HTML WG charter states: "An extensible, serialized form of such a language, using XML"
08:29:45 [oedipus]
"The HTML WG is encouraged to provide a mechanism to permit independently developed vocabularies such as Internationalization Tag Set (ITS), Ruby, and RDFa to be mixed into HTML documents. Whether this occurs through the extensibility mechanism of XML, whether it is also allowed in the classic HTML serialization, and whether it uses the DTD and Schema modularization techniques, is for the HTML WG to determine."
08:29:48 [Steven_]
Roland: Our charter mentions work on XHTML, inbcluding 1.0
08:29:54 [Steven_]
08:30:24 [Steven_]
Roland: So if we create a 1.2 that would crystalise the situation
08:30:29 [Steven_]
Shane: I agree
08:30:42 [Steven_]
... I have it in writing from Chris Lilley that we can do a 1.2
08:31:34 [oedipus]
institutional angst is but the tip of the existential iceberg
08:32:57 [Steven_]
Roland: We should raise it at the HCG
08:33:06 [Steven_]
... it is clearly in the charters
08:33:22 [Steven_]
Tina: Regarding 1.2
08:34:01 [Steven_]
... quoting above, it says that HTML5 replaces XHTML 1.0
08:34:27 [Steven_]
... so what about XHTML2?
08:34:27 [yamx]
They cannot replace XHTML2...
08:34:43 [Steven_]
Shane: They are trying to orphan XHTML2
08:35:08 [yamx]
They will change "Relationship to XHTML 1.x" to "Relationship to XHTML m.n". :-)
08:35:57 [Steven_]
... we need to respond forcefully
08:36:27 [Steven_]
Shane: By charter we are responsible for the XHTML series, and HTML5 is not chartered to do that
08:37:09 [oedipus]
tina, the quote about superseding is in the "Status of this Document" section of html5 editor's draft (
08:37:55 [Steven_]
Tina: Is Mike's response a formal one from the WG?
08:38:07 [Steven_]
Gregory: We haven't discussed it in the group
08:38:18 [Steven_]
Shane: So they made a change without discussion
08:38:24 [Steven_]
s/ a / the /
08:38:38 [Steven_]
Tina: We should reply that we are chartered to do that work
08:38:40 [yamx]
... I just cannot understand how they work in HTML5....
08:39:03 [Steven_]
Roland: We should keep it short, and not debate the points
08:39:06 [oedipus]
root of problem: (from Status of this Document) - "The latest stable version of the editor's draft of this specification is always available on the W3C CVS server and in the WHATWG Subversion repository. The latest editor's working copy (which may contain unfinished text in the process of being prepared) is available on the WHATWG site. "
08:39:42 [Steven_]
Shane: We should reply that they should remove all text that gives the impression that they are producing XHTML
08:40:47 [yamx]
I agree.
08:40:52 [oedipus]
08:41:01 [yamx]
I support the resolution.
08:41:41 [ShaneM]
Rationale... they are introducing confusion in the marketplace and damaging the brand that is XHTML. This is harmful and misleading.
08:41:53 [Steven_]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: The WG recognises that we are chartered to maintain and develop the XHTML series, and the HTML5 specification should therefore not contain text that makes it appear differently
08:42:09 [yamx]
08:42:10 [Steven_]
RESOLUTION: The WG recognises that we are chartered to maintain and develop the XHTML series, and the HTML5 specification should therefore not contain text that makes it appear differently
08:42:15 [oedipus]
08:42:17 [Tina]
08:42:25 [ShaneM]
In particular, HTML5 is NOT empowered to supercede XHTML *anything*
08:42:37 [Steven_]
ACTION: Roland to reply to HTML5 WG to communicate our resolution on XHTML naming
08:42:43 [Steven_]
rrsagent, make minutes
08:42:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Steven_
08:43:26 [Steven_]
s/Scribe: Steven/Scribe: Steven_/
08:43:32 [Steven_]
rrsagent, make minutes
08:43:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Steven_
08:43:57 [Steven]
Scribe: Steven
08:44:55 [ShaneM]
Proposal: Re-issue XHTML 1.0 removing appendix C and pointing to XHTMLMIME.
08:44:57 [oedipus]
that will be VERY helpful
08:45:14 [Steven]
Shane: Would that be a good idea?
08:45:19 [Steven]
Gregory: Yes
08:45:32 [Steven]
Steven: We are chartered to do it
08:46:19 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
08:46:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Steven
08:46:45 [Steven]
Topic: RDFa
08:46:55 [Steven]
Roland: What do we have to do?
08:47:17 [ShaneM]
Proposed CR end date for RDFa is 18 July
08:48:12 [Steven]
Steven: There are lots of implementations
08:48:21 [Steven]
... so the CR period will be short
08:48:30 [Steven]
... we have XHTML 1.1+RDFa
08:48:44 [Steven]
... and we can merge that with @role and so on, and create 1.2
08:50:38 [Steven]
Roland: Is the media type issue resolved?
08:50:43 [Steven]
Shane: Maybe not
08:51:19 [Steven]
Steven: Not clear. TimBL has sent a new message; not clear if that reopens the issue
08:52:04 [Lachy]
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08:52:10 [alessio]
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08:52:13 [Steven]
Shane: He has an issue about how you ask the server for the RDF involved with a document
08:52:28 [Steven]
... but I think the media type issue is solved
08:53:02 [Steven]
... the peripheral issue is about 'announcement'; how an author says that a document contains RDF
08:53:50 [Steven]
... Ralph in his recent message
08:53:56 [oedipus]
"If saying SHOULD for *any* of the 3 document conformance options 4, 5, or 6 leaves the reader with the impression that NOT doing any of the three means the author has NOT intended to state these triples then I would agree with your concern. However, these SHOULDs are there for 3 different reasons."
08:54:01 [Steven]
08:54:15 [Steven]
... suggests that authors MAY add version information
08:54:21 [Steven]
... any opinions?
08:55:17 [Steven]
... I've never used MAY in this context
08:56:04 [Steven]
Steven: I have trouble understanding what Tim really wants
08:56:10 [oedipus]
RFC2119 def of MAY: This word, or the adjective "OPTIONAL", mean that an item is truly optional. One vendor may choose to include the item because a particular marketplace requires it or because the vendor feels that it enhances the product while another vendor may omit the same item. An implementation which does not include a particular option MUST be prepared to interoperate with another implementation which does include the option, though perhaps with red
08:56:17 [Steven]
Shane: I mean more generally, what does it mean to say MAY for the author
08:56:53 [ShaneM]
08:57:12 [oedipus]
GJR thinks SHOULD should remain SHOULD
08:59:59 [Steven]
Steven: Ralph seems to want to be able to extract RDF from a doc without a DOCTYPE, or a version, or a profile
09:00:05 [Steven]
Shane: Yes, and he thinks Tim does too
09:00:14 [yamx]
I agree with Steven on putting "MAY" for author conformance... But maybe it is because usually we avoid any document conformance....
09:00:15 [oedipus]
09:00:24 [Steven]
Shane: But I don't agree that that is what Tim wants
09:00:38 [Steven]
... he seems to be a big supporter of GRDDL
09:01:56 [oedipus]
"You could say, (2) "All servers MUST put the namespace GRDDL, and clients MAY use namespace GRDDL, or may use inherent knowledge of the spec." That would work in all cases." [...] "So I suspect you want go with (2). To define RDFa conformance. Obviously, people might want to make documents in the short term which work equally well by conforming to the GRDDL spec (document profile method) and by RDFa but that is a distraction."
09:01:59 [Steven]
Steven: GRDDL is not harmful to RDFa
09:02:30 [Steven]
Shane: CR may be held up by Tim's comment
09:02:56 [Steven]
... we may be asked to quickly decide on changes to the conformance clause to fix this objection
09:06:04 [yamx]
see you later.
09:06:07 [Steven]
... the TF has been told verbally that the changes they had made would satisfy Tim's objection.
09:06:10 [Zakim]
09:06:12 [Steven]
==== 2 min break ===
09:06:18 [Zakim]
09:06:23 [Steven]
=== bacl at xx:25 ===
09:06:27 [Zakim]
09:06:33 [Zakim]
09:10:32 [oedipus]
if i don't use a speaker phone, i often inadvertantly cover the mouthpiece so it is easier for others if i use speakerphone
09:23:28 [Roland]
rrsagent, make minutes
09:23:28 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Roland
09:24:25 [Zakim]
09:25:20 [Zakim]
09:25:30 [alessio]
zakim, PP3 is Alessio
09:25:30 [Zakim]
sorry, alessio, I do not recognize a party named 'PP3'
09:25:36 [alessio]
zakim, ??PP3 is Alessio
09:25:36 [Zakim]
sorry, alessio, I do not recognize a party named '??PP3'
09:25:43 [alessio]
zakim, ??P3 is Alessio
09:25:43 [Zakim]
+Alessio; got it
09:26:20 [Zakim]
09:26:35 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
09:26:35 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
09:26:37 [Zakim]
09:26:38 [Zakim]
09:26:46 [yamx]
alessio, p3!
09:26:58 [Steven]
zakim, who is here?
09:26:58 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Roland, Steven, Tina, Gregory_Rosmaita, Alessio, ??P4, ShaneM
09:27:00 [Zakim]
On IRC I see alessio, Lachy, Steven, yamx, Roland, oedipus, RRSAgent, Zakim, Tina, deane, ShaneM
09:27:06 [Steven]
zakim, ??P4 is Yam
09:27:06 [Zakim]
+Yam; got it
09:27:11 [yamx]
09:27:15 [Steven]
rrsgent, make minutes
09:27:21 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
09:27:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Steven
09:28:07 [Steven]
zakim, who is here?
09:28:07 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Roland, Steven, Tina, Gregory_Rosmaita, Alessio, Yam, ShaneM
09:28:07 [oedipus]
FYI: open accessibility (open a11y) uses XHTML 1.0 strict but is migrating to 1.1+RDFa for specifications and documents
09:28:09 [Zakim]
On IRC I see alessio, Lachy, Steven, yamx, Roland, oedipus, RRSAgent, Zakim, Tina, deane, ShaneM
09:28:16 [Steven]
Present: Roland, Steven, Tina, Gregory_Rosmaita, Alessio, Yam, ShaneM
09:31:07 [Steven]
ACTION: Steven to start an implementation page on the wiki
09:33:13 [oedipus]
09:33:24 [oedipus]
09:33:37 [alessio]
gregory, as IWA/HWG we are present in that WG with three people :)
09:33:46 [oedipus]
09:33:47 [Steven]
Topic: XHTML2
09:34:35 [Roland]
09:35:00 [Steven]
09:36:39 [oedipus]
GJR would like to make some specific suggestions (e.g. use global @src on Q for URI/IDREF and redefine @cite to contain human parseable info of the type of info encased in CITE element )
09:36:58 [Steven]
Roland: We still need to do some work
09:37:09 [Steven]
Steven: RDFa has been the main gating factor
09:37:12 [oedipus]
q+ to ask what is most efficacious feedback stream for XHTML2?
09:37:30 [Steven]
... since we reference RDFa normatively, we have to follow it one step behind
09:37:32 [oedipus]
scribe: oedipus
09:37:42 [oedipus]
SM: haven't put out PWD in 2 years
09:38:05 [oedipus]
SM: everytime propose new PWD, get objections -- need to get a snapshot up
09:38:14 [oedipus]
SM: updates from 2 years ago need to be effected
09:38:26 [oedipus]
RESOLVED: Issue a new XHTML2 Public Working Draft
09:38:28 [yamx]
no objection from me.
09:38:33 [oedipus]
09:38:44 [oedipus]
RM: next steps after publication?
09:38:49 [Steven]
09:38:56 [alessio]
09:38:59 [Tina]
09:39:01 [oedipus]
RM: do we want XHTML2 to be all-encompasing or refer to modules
09:39:15 [oedipus]
SP: refer to modules - actually, depends on what you mean
09:39:41 [Steven]
Yes, modules
09:39:50 [Steven]
+ refer to XForms 1.1
09:39:52 [oedipus]
RM: XML Events on spec track, Access on spec track, etc. -- don't want to have to go through last call again - XHTML2 should incorporate modules externally defined
09:39:57 [Steven]
09:40:02 [oedipus]
SP: include RDFa and XForms 1.1
09:40:15 [Steven]
+ access + role
09:41:04 [Steven]
+ XML Events
09:42:20 [oedipus]
SM: had rule that XHTML author should be able to use XHTML2 spec to get enough info to write documents; should be able to find content model and syntax in XHTML2 - misguided - people write books to do that - can point to other specs to help keep in sync
09:42:44 [Steven]
I can live with that if there are good enough links to definitions of elements and attributes elsewhere
09:42:45 [oedipus]
RM: Events, Handlers and Script modules (new XML Events in 3 Modules)
09:43:04 [ShaneM]
09:43:08 [oedipus]
SM: if want to change philosophy of what ought to be in spec, should do consciously
09:43:44 [oedipus]
SM: need to update section cited above and remove some other chapters - should be sufficient
09:44:03 [oedipus]
RM: minimal work to publish new PWD that refers to latest state of things been driving forward
09:44:33 [oedipus]
ACTION: ShaneM - incorporate Access, Role, XML Events (in 3 modules: Events, Handlers, Script), and RDFa modules through external reference to XHTML2?
09:44:39 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
09:44:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
09:44:43 [Steven]
09:44:49 [oedipus]
RM: how long will that take, shane?
09:44:59 [oedipus]
SM: can have by monday
09:45:07 [oedipus]
RM: new PWD by end of june
09:45:10 [oedipus]
SM: perfect
09:45:12 [oedipus]
ack me
09:45:12 [Zakim]
oedipus, you wanted to ask what is most efficacious feedback stream for XHTML2?
09:46:04 [yamx]
09:46:20 [oedipus]
SP: send to WG as email with suggestions and examples
09:46:51 [oedipus]
SP: one implementation strategy is to try and create set of javascripts that implement XHTML2 - XHTML2 with script to work in existing browsers
09:47:35 [oedipus]
SP: half of that is on the way with IBM's ubiquity -- XForms, but the heart of it - a lot can be done with CSS in XHTML2 that authors are familiar with, remaining hard bits are HREF and SRC everywhere
09:47:58 [oedipus]
SP: good place to start working is to create bit of script or script library that supports HREF and SRC everywhere
09:48:07 [oedipus]
Alessio: i will try to write one
09:48:27 [oedipus]
Alessio: Access module support in XBL - can transfer solution
09:48:40 [oedipus]
SM: XML Events 2 another challanging bit
09:48:59 [oedipus]
SP: XForms does XML Events, so ubiquity will move to XML Events 2
09:49:05 [oedipus]
SM: uses Events, not Handlers
09:49:12 [oedipus]
SP: Handlers derived from XForms
09:49:22 [oedipus]
SP: conditionals form XForms 1.1
09:49:34 [oedipus]
09:49:47 [oedipus]
SP: should be referencing XForms 1.1 rather than XForms 1.0
09:50:00 [oedipus]
SP: XML Events is difficult, but ubiquity will help us
09:50:14 [oedipus]
RM: implementation of SCRIPT tag through javascript?
09:50:35 [oedipus]
SP: danger is UA gets to SCRIPT tag before XHTML2 script does
09:50:45 [oedipus]
Alessio: interesting point
09:50:55 [oedipus]
SP: may be ok - proof will be in the proverbial pudding
09:51:12 [oedipus]
SM: things in scripts don't do inline functions - should declare, not execute
09:51:38 [oedipus]
RM: move it all into a single namespace?
09:51:45 [oedipus]
RM: make author's life as easy as can make it
09:51:58 [oedipus]
SM: what would that encompass "all"?
09:52:15 [oedipus]
RM: XML Events, XML Handlers - take as chameleon to XML namespace
09:52:35 [oedipus]
s/to XML/to XHTML
09:52:35 [Steven]
09:53:02 [oedipus]
SP: let's do it and see what reaction is
09:53:15 [oedipus]
RM: ARIA Module - should be in here
09:53:40 [oedipus]
SM: absolutely think should include ARIA (as aria- ) in XHTML2
09:53:43 [oedipus]
Alessio: agree
09:53:45 [oedipus]
GJR: agree
09:54:48 [Steven]
09:55:44 [oedipus]
RM: our view is that we will do aria-
09:56:44 [oedipus]
SM: wrt XHTML2, ARIA spec will be rolled in - should add reference to XHTML2.0 doctype chapter
09:56:54 [oedipus]
09:56:58 [oedipus]
09:57:02 [oedipus]
09:57:05 [oedipus]
09:57:51 [oedipus]
latest drafts 18 june 2008
09:57:54 [ShaneM]
Let's offer to help ARIA create a DTD and Schema for their spec that conforms to M12N 1.1
09:58:10 [oedipus]
yes, shane - i will work with you on that if you like
09:58:39 [oedipus]
RM: discussion aroiund Alessio's work - viewports in source as well as from elsewhere - fact of life need to talk out how to address
09:59:21 [oedipus]
RM: what to do with certain types of elements - XHTML2 include H1 - H6 - should be using H for headings and H1 to H6 in another place
09:59:24 [oedipus]
SP: legacy module
09:59:27 [oedipus]
SM: agree
09:59:30 [oedipus]
Alessio: yes
09:59:32 [oedipus]
Yam; yes
09:59:35 [oedipus]
GJR: yes
09:59:50 [oedipus]
SM: can migrate things to legacy module; rather not craft new module for next week
10:00:11 [yamx]
Yam; yes? yes :-)
10:00:25 [oedipus]
RM: agree - this is future work - raising bar and dealing with structural and clean authoring - adapting to needs of a11y, ubiquitous, etc
10:00:50 [oedipus]
Yam: any enumerated list of issues to resolve for LC of XHTML2?
10:01:02 [oedipus]
SP: interesting questoin: have a list of issues that have been raised about XHTML2
10:01:17 [oedipus]
Yam: make sub-set of issues we have to clear - work on both sets of issues
10:01:29 [oedipus]
SP: shane can provide a URI to tthe database of issues
10:01:51 [oedipus]
SP: strictly speaking, we are a different WG than those addressed to us prior to split of MarkUp
10:02:07 [oedipus]
Yam: still need to attend to them
10:02:23 [oedipus]
RM: we should start to work through old issues during next hour
10:02:52 [oedipus]
SM: 82 issues in incoming bucket that have never been filed
10:03:25 [oedipus]
SM: trying to get URI that includes old and newer issues
10:03:39 [ShaneM];statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
10:04:05 [oedipus]
SM: not marked "implemented" - means hasn't been fixed
10:04:22 [oedipus]
SM: suggest we do in alphabetic order
10:04:24 [oedipus]
RM: ok
10:04:41 [Steven];user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
10:05:23 [oedipus]
SM: constrain attribute groups together - could extend syntax to show that was my response, but seems an abstract issue (4 year old comment - 7661)
10:05:38 [oedipus]
SP: issue for M12n, not XHTML2 per se
10:05:52 [oedipus]
SM: M12n 2 is direct product of work on XHTML2
10:06:26 [oedipus]
RM: explainations in prose to schema - might have to switch to RelaxNG
10:06:33 [oedipus]
SP: not necessarily -
10:06:48 [oedipus]
RM: if want to put in as implementation, need to use RelaxNG - will become issue in LC
10:07:15 [oedipus]
SM: marked as "suspended"
10:07:26 [oedipus]
SP: add note to say think is good thing for M12n 2
10:07:34 [oedipus]
SM: ok
10:08:22 [oedipus]
SM: issue 7783 - already improved - need to add text to @src to clarify when dir applies to source
10:08:38 [oedipus]
SP: believe specificied dir only in regard CSS properties
10:08:47 [oedipus]
SP: that would answer question
10:08:50 [oedipus]
SM: does it?
10:09:13 [oedipus]
SP: if say @dir defined this way and reference CSS - only affects content of element
10:09:38 [oedipus]
SM: misconception may arise from @src treated as object
10:09:51 [oedipus]
SM: use of @src to provide inline text
10:10:14 [oedipus]
SM: @src doesn't say thing brought in is in its own context - there is a resolution somewhere, but change yet to be effected to draft
10:10:43 [oedipus];statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
10:11:49 [oedipus]
SP: feature request to sysreq - use ID for resolutions in perl script that generates minutes
10:11:58 [oedipus]
SP: will send in issue request now
10:12:03 [ShaneM];user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
10:12:59 [ShaneM]
10:13:06 [oedipus]
SM: ISSUE 7799 Jim Ley points out that not clear how deal with quality values in regards source - "Please clarify the section to explain how document quality values, and user agent quality values combine."
10:13:55 [oedipus]
SM: comment reflects on @sourcetype - clarify in text what we mean by intersection
10:14:11 [oedipus]
10:14:23 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
10:14:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
10:15:55 [oedipus]
SP: explanation: in HTML4, one could say type="foo" to specify type of thing pointing at -- doesn't do anything, just a hint - no garuntee that it is true - comment more than anything; made more useful to merge type into HTTP-REQUEST sent for resource; allows one to specify the RDF version of a document - gives control over content negotiation
10:16:02 [oedipus]
SP: haven't specified for quality values
10:16:09 [oedipus]
SP: no answer off top of my head
10:16:21 [oedipus]
RM: @src and @srctype - example of a handler element
10:16:23 [oedipus]
SM: used to
10:16:42 [oedipus]
SM: good catch -will fix now
10:16:56 [oedipus]
SP: needs some brainwork
10:17:32 [oedipus]
SM: started to address in XHTMLMIME doc last night in regards requests in general and use of profile parameter as media selector - all dovetail
10:17:53 [oedipus]
ACTION: Steven - devote brain cycles to solving quality values question
10:18:00 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
10:18:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
10:18:16 [oedipus]
SM: ISSUE 7799 is "open" then
10:18:44 [oedipus]
SM: next issue in same section also from Jim Ley
10:18:45 [oedipus];user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
10:19:14 [oedipus]
SM: "intersection of mime-types" - what does asterisk mean when creating intersections
10:19:30 [oedipus]
SP: similar issue - answer fairly obvious - will combine with previous action item
10:19:56 [oedipus]
ACTION: Steven - combine answer to ISSUE 7800 with answer to ISSUE 7799
10:20:01 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
10:20:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
10:20:13 [oedipus];user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
10:20:24 [oedipus]
SM: "attributes without values"
10:21:07 [oedipus]
SM: from issue: "class attribute is defined as NMTOKENS, which in turn is defined as one or more whitespace separated NMTOKEN... but I think it is always legal to specify an attribute with no value. Isn't it? We should make that clear."
10:21:13 [oedipus]
SM: thought this was closed
10:21:34 [oedipus]
SM: marked "The working group intended this be NMTOKENS, and that an empty value be not
10:21:34 [oedipus]
10:21:50 [oedipus]
SM: WG did not want use for class
10:22:46 [oedipus];statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
10:23:09 [oedipus]
RM: need to start devoting significant time and effort on this
10:23:24 [oedipus]
SM: biggest criticism WG has had is non-responsiveness to public issues
10:23:42 [oedipus];user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
10:24:02 [oedipus]
SM: one of family of comments from Jim Ley - please specify something when something goes bad
10:24:39 [oedipus]
ISSUE 7730: "If the user aborts downloading whilst the chicken.xhtml resource is only partially downloaded, is the chicken.xhtml resource successful or not? And what should be rendered, the parts of chicken.xhtml that had been downloaded and rendered so far, or should the fallback content be rendered instead? Is the behaviour any different if instead of a user initiated abort, there's an abort caused by the network?"
10:24:47 [oedipus]
TH: similar to conversation yesterday
10:24:54 [Steven]
(Feature request for id on RESOLUTIONS sent)
10:25:09 [oedipus]
TH: if download document that is perfectly valid, document shouldn't be rendered by UA
10:25:21 [oedipus]
TH: if embed fragment, and collection is lost - what then?
10:25:54 [oedipus]
SM: diff by the way separate documents (OBJECT or IFRAME) and embedded documents
10:26:10 [oedipus]
SP: good question - gut feeling is that any failure should be counted as a failure
10:26:20 [oedipus]
SM: what does it mean when fails -- falls back?
10:26:55 [oedipus]
SP: if loading of resource fails, fallback content should be used - that's what @src states - if network fails during download, fallback to fallback content
10:27:21 [alessio]
10:27:30 [oedipus]
10:27:38 [Tina]
10:28:14 [oedipus]
RM: unpredictable - did or didn't - if succeed, get it, if fails, don't get it and get fallback (which is what it is there for)
10:28:20 [oedipus]
SP: need to state explicitly
10:28:30 [oedipus]
SM: same argument applies to ISSUE 7731
10:28:37 [oedipus];user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
10:28:53 [oedipus]
RM: marking as closed?
10:28:58 [oedipus]
SM: marking as go
10:29:05 [oedipus]
RM: don't want to have to revisit in a few months
10:29:12 [oedipus];user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
10:29:22 [oedipus]
SM: 7731 same as 7730
10:30:29 [oedipus]
SP: different - when talking about @src - if have PDF as target of @src, but if PDF not available/supported should not be an error; errors in @src should ONLY refer to network errors in retrieving source
10:31:21 [oedipus]
TH: agree that if you link embedded PDF and is handed off to third-party app, not a failure, but in jimL's example, compromise entire document
10:31:58 [oedipus]
TH: XHTML fragment with host document suddenly becomes invalid host document; processing directive "this has been embedded with @src shouldn't text that for validity"
10:32:53 [oedipus]
SP: when process top-level XHTML2 document, and XHTML2 processor not aware/agnostic of mediatype - goes and gets resource; if retrieving resource successful, hands off to plug-in; if not delivered (failure to load remote resource)
10:33:09 [oedipus]
RM: not clear from reading def of @src what DOM looks like after it has succeded
10:33:15 [oedipus]
RM: what happens?
10:33:29 [oedipus]
TH: embedding mechanism @src doesn't care about content-type or resource?
10:33:40 [oedipus]
SP: in loading it, doesn't do anything special for diff mediatypes
10:33:58 [oedipus]
TH: separate processor - if resource in form of XML, does XML become part of host document
10:34:03 [oedipus]
SM: answer is no
10:34:08 [oedipus]
SP: like IMG @src now
10:34:17 [oedipus]
TH: can't access that segment via the DOM
10:34:24 [oedipus]
RM: that is what is unclear in @src def
10:34:59 [oedipus]
SM: intent - anything included by @src works as OBJECT element should - separate entity in displayed document (has own security context, DOM, etc.)
10:35:02 [Steven]
Yes, it is a shoprtcut for object, good description
10:35:11 [oedipus]
RM: syntaxic shortcut for OBJECT element? need to make that clear
10:35:11 [Steven]
10:35:12 [alessio]
10:35:24 [oedipus]
SM: if that is what it is, not entirely sure is useful
10:35:36 [oedipus]
RM: still going to write HTTP-REQUESTs
10:35:51 [oedipus]
SP: reason good is that solves problem with LONGDESC - moving longdesc into document
10:36:20 [oedipus]
SP: keeping separate docs up to date with LONGDESC model very difficult; in this way, keep longdesc in document itself and have best of both worlds
10:36:38 [oedipus]
SM: agree that very difficult to maintain LONGDESC, but if only use case, very heavy handed solution
10:36:50 [oedipus]
SP: not only use case, but a REALLY good solution for LONGDESC
10:37:06 [oedipus]
RM: if want @src to appear in DOM, don't use this - need to clarify
10:37:32 [oedipus]
RM: to have in DOM and manipulate, use HTTP-REQUEST
10:37:34 [oedipus]
SP: XForms
10:37:41 [oedipus]
SM: no XHR or server-side includes
10:37:43 [alessio]
+1 for an embedded LONGDESC
10:38:00 [oedipus]
SP: XHR is derived from XForms
10:38:10 [oedipus]
+1 for embedded LONGDESC (on user configuration)
10:38:15 [oedipus]
RM: don't think so
10:38:28 [oedipus]
RM: restrictions and restraints lacking
10:38:42 [oedipus]
SP: should discuss, but XForms instance gives us what we want
10:38:56 [oedipus]
SM: if that is the case, it is a non-obvious solution to this problem
10:39:24 [oedipus]
RM: if XForms 1.1 isolates network module for getting and putting resources will be easier than XForms today
10:39:31 [oedipus]
SP: why? load some resource then use part of them
10:39:47 [oedipus]
RM: no, load resource inline in DOM no referencing - just there
10:40:00 [oedipus]
SM: mash-up use case -
10:40:08 [oedipus]
SP: XForms addresses that in my opinion
10:40:23 [oedipus]
SM: text doesn't make it clear and needs clarification - who owns section?
10:40:27 [oedipus]
SP: suspect it is me
10:40:48 [oedipus]
RM: known issues
10:41:20 [oedipus]
SM: @src content embedded, so needs own styling
10:41:31 [oedipus]
TH: needs to be stressed as well
10:42:01 [oedipus]
SM: SP owns section
10:42:35 [oedipus]
PRPOSED ACTION: Steven - add text to make clear that item not in DOM and clarify styling implications
10:43:02 [oedipus]
SM: strong argument, RM for other sort of include - proposal would be good
10:43:08 [ShaneM];user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
10:43:24 [oedipus]
ACTION: Steven add text to @src section to make clear that item not in DOM and clarify styling implications
10:43:28 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
10:43:28 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
10:43:59 [oedipus]
SM: ISSUE 7732 - clarify intersection of what author is asking for and what UA can handle
10:44:20 [oedipus]
"Please remove this constraint.
10:44:20 [oedipus]
10:44:32 [oedipus]
TH: Needs clarification
10:44:40 [oedipus]
SM: clarified somewhere - discussed multiple times
10:44:50 [oedipus]
TH: if what JimL quotes is correct, then "OUCH!"
10:45:42 [oedipus]
SP: trouble is thing is being embedded, so the surrounding XHTML2 processor not going to be displaying it; what XHTML2 processor can display non-issue - encoding matters to what is used to process that doctype
10:45:49 [markbirbeck]
markbirbeck has joined #xhtml
10:45:56 [oedipus]
RM: does same issue apply to OBJECT?
10:46:08 [oedipus]
SM: don't think is same
10:46:09 [ShaneM]
10:46:26 [markbirbeck]
Apologies again guys...can't join today. Sorry. :(
10:46:36 [markbirbeck]
Will stay on IRC for as long as I can.
10:46:37 [oedipus]
TH: seems like matter of semantics - intent of section is to say author may suggest what to request, but UA chooses what can understand
10:46:38 [Steven]
10:47:16 [oedipus]
SP: charset attribute used on A, LINK, SCRIPT in HTML4 - renamed at request of i18n
10:47:36 [oedipus]
SP: HTML4 says "this attribute specifies character encoding specified by link" so HTML4 has same problem
10:48:17 [oedipus]
TH: fundamental difference - in HTML4 resource specified by link; objection is to "user agent must use this list to indicate what accepts"
10:49:11 [oedipus]
SP: HTML4 to XHTML2 - HTML4 @charset specifies character encoding of source specified by link; what if UA doesn't know encoding; no prose about refusing if UA cannot accept - just says "that's the encoding"
10:49:15 [oedipus]
TH: prlbem with any link
10:49:22 [oedipus]
10:49:54 [oedipus]
SP: XHTML2 adds to accept headers - asks for specific resource and sent off in request headers
10:49:58 [Zakim]
10:50:10 [oedipus]
SP: shoujld we use encoding in request, or in accordance with what UA says it accepts
10:50:34 [oedipus]
SP: if answer is yes, combine with what UA can accept, means excluding resources not natively supported by UA (PDF example)
10:50:57 [oedipus]
SP: not issue of UA can handle UTF-8, but if PDF parser can handle UTF-8
10:51:08 [oedipus]
TH: still back to semantics - need to sort out -
10:51:36 [oedipus]
TH: not clear to me or authors - doesn't solve problem of what happens if host UA is rendering what it serves
10:51:51 [Steven]
So, there is nothing wrong with <img src="foo.pdf" srctype="app/pdf" encoding="utf-8"/>
10:52:18 [oedipus]
SP: no business of UA whether can handle UTF-8
10:52:24 [oedipus]
TH: that's what needs to be clarified
10:52:28 [alessio]
alessio has joined #xhtml
10:52:47 [oedipus]
"The user agent must use this list as the field value of the accept-charset request header when requesting the resource using HTTP"
10:53:05 [oedipus]
RM: what is use case of putting source of PDF in there?
10:53:06 [Zakim]
10:53:09 [oedipus]
SP: just an example
10:53:14 [alessio]
zakim, ??P3 is Alessio
10:53:14 [Zakim]
+Alessio; got it
10:53:24 [oedipus]
RM: what is the "real" motivating use case for this
10:53:36 [oedipus]
SM: just think OBJECT - think about it in that context
10:53:41 [oedipus]
RM: so applies to OBJECT
10:53:43 [oedipus]
SM: yes
10:53:50 [oedipus]
SP: and attribute is used by OBJECT
10:53:59 [oedipus]
SM: meant in HTML4
10:54:03 [oedipus]
SP: ah
10:54:18 [oedipus]
SM: if specified on OBJECT element currently, UA would constrain request
10:54:21 [oedipus]
SP: not in HTML4
10:54:51 [oedipus]
SP: design error in definition of @srctype and @encoding in HTML4 - useless comments from which nothing is gained
10:54:51 [alessio]
10:55:12 [oedipus]
TH: sort out JimL's issue by clarifying his misunderstanding -
10:55:29 [oedipus]
TH: need to sort issues out -
10:55:32 [Steven]
10:56:44 [oedipus]
SP: i don't think there is very much of use case for @encoding attribute - most people don't and won't use it; purely a comment in HTML4; XHTML2 tightening it up for a use, but barely a reason why one would want to use
10:57:00 [oedipus]
TH: if use on OBJECT in HTML4, can provided basis for content negotiation
10:57:13 [oedipus]
SP: how does UA know what thing which is doing embedding can accept?
10:57:28 [oedipus]
SP: when use OBJECT for a video, not UA that does video, hands off to plug-in
10:57:42 [oedipus]
SM: and no way for UA to tell not supported so give me fallback
10:58:02 [oedipus]
TH: UA doesn't know what plugin can handle
10:58:20 [ShaneM]
How about saying "The encoding applies to retrieving a specific version of a resource to hand off to a resource processor for an embedded attribute. It has nothing to do, per se, with the capabilities of the user agent. We will make it clear in the text that this is the case."
10:58:25 [oedipus]
TH: make 8.1 explicit that this is what processor can handle, not User Agent
10:58:37 [ShaneM]
10:58:49 [Steven]
tina breaking up
10:58:54 [oedipus]
GJR plus 1 to shaneM suggestion
10:59:38 [Tina]
If we can clear up 18.1 to make it explicit that it is the processor that handles the embedded content which use this encoding, and NOT the embedding UA, then we can close the issue.
11:00:04 [oedipus]
SM: information that a UA would give to the plugin - handler for associated mediatype - plugin should know to retreive resource or accept resource using this encoding
11:00:51 [oedipus]
RM: still have problem figuring out why useful - embedding attribute module
11:01:10 [oedipus]
SM: larger question - even if atts only expressed in relation to OBJECT would still ahve same issues
11:01:15 [oedipus]
11:01:24 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
11:01:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
11:01:44 [oedipus]
RM: trouble understanding value of putting this everywhere
11:02:01 [oedipus]
SM: issue 7733 -;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
11:02:38 [oedipus]
SM: response is "embedded content is not in the stream"
11:02:51 [oedipus]
Steven: +1
11:02:56 [oedipus]
GJR +1
11:03:20 [yamx]
Yam: +1 (quite natural)
11:03:31 [oedipus]
RESOLVED: Issue 7733 closed by responding "embedded content is not in the stream"
11:03:31 [alessio]
11:03:44 [oedipus];user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
11:04:15 [oedipus]
SM: also from Jim Ley - visited previously but still open - how to know if a "successful failure" - don't think should say anthing about http
11:04:19 [oedipus]
SP: agree
11:04:56 [ShaneM]
This specification should not specify anything about how the underlying protocols associated with a URI scheme report success or failure.
11:05:01 [oedipus]
SP: http spec already says what is and isn't failure - what begins with a 4 is failure, what begins with 3 is success
11:05:41 [oedipus]
s/with 3/with 2 or 3
11:05:57 [oedipus]
TH: leave to separate protocols to determine what is successful and what is failure
11:07:06 [oedipus];user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
11:07:15 [oedipus]
SM: 7735 closed
11:07:29 [oedipus]
SM: ISSUE 7736 - what happens when an HREF and an SRC
11:07:38 [oedipus]
TH: would embedded content be linkable
11:07:50 [oedipus]
SM: content from HREF replaces SRC
11:08:01 [oedipus]
SP: no - if a P remains a P
11:08:16 [oedipus]
TH: so embedded content linkable - don't see problem
11:08:17 [Steven]
I think that <a id="donkey" href="donkey.html" src="chicken.xhtml>chickens</a>
11:09:06 [oedipus]
TH: embedded content used as the link, which seems reasonable; some styles to apply to embedded images (A with IMG)
11:09:11 [oedipus]
TH: replace content with CSS
11:09:15 [Steven]
is equiv to the present <a id="donkey" href="donkey.html"><img src="chicken.xhtml" alt="chickens"/></a>
11:09:44 [oedipus]
SM: anything brought in by @src in own dom tree not in doc tree, but styleable itself, not covered by host document's styling
11:10:05 [oedipus]
TH: authors going to assume can still style image used as a link
11:10:20 [oedipus]
SM: styling box in which image is contained - effectively defining border
11:10:37 [oedipus]
TH: border is part of image element, because img doing the embedding
11:10:44 [oedipus]
TH: not sure going to be clear to authors
11:10:53 [oedipus]
SM: counterintuative
11:11:30 [oedipus]
TH: issue raises another thing: if embedded content not in DOM and not styled by host, can it be linked?
11:11:38 [ShaneM]
Content brought in via the src attribute is placed *within* the surrounding element, so any annotation on the surrounding element would apply to that element. In this case, the href attribute would make the surrounding element (the a) linkable.
11:11:56 [oedipus]
TH: use an A element and @src to embed content - what happens to the link?
11:12:04 [Steven]
see above example
11:12:16 [oedipus]
sounds reasonable
11:12:22 [Steven]
zakim, mute alessio
11:12:22 [Zakim]
Alessio should now be muted
11:12:39 [oedipus]
TH: like shane's example
11:12:40 [alessio]
zakim, mute me
11:12:40 [Zakim]
Alessio was already muted, alessio
11:12:48 [oedipus]
SM: capture that for edit
11:13:11 [oedipus]
TH: not eager to explain to author when tries to style inline elements in an A that content is actually embedded
11:13:22 [oedipus]
RM: share that concern - need to return to as BIG ISSUE
11:13:35 [oedipus]
SM: ISSUE;user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
11:13:56 [oedipus]
SM: ISSUE 7737 - if iframe has link and click on it, what is replaced
11:14:00 [oedipus]
SP: not a new problem
11:14:12 [oedipus]
TH: IFRAMEs separate content
11:14:22 [oedipus]
SP: content of IFRAME gets place
11:14:29 [oedipus]
TH: what happens to OBJECT?
11:14:43 [alessio]
11:14:44 [oedipus]
SM: would need OBJECT to work correctly
11:14:57 [oedipus]
RM: Alessio has contribution/suggestions that help
11:15:03 [alessio]
my example had a fallback
11:15:09 [oedipus]
SP: link will only be activated in context of embedding
11:15:12 [oedipus]
SM: agree
11:15:21 [oedipus]
TH: then embedded content works as OBJECT?
11:15:26 [oedipus]
SM: how OBJECT should work
11:15:39 [oedipus]
RM: should container be able to determine where action taken
11:15:58 [oedipus]
SM: today UAs don't permit embedded actions in embedded content
11:16:04 [oedipus]
SP: browser doesn't get events
11:16:14 [oedipus]
SM: go to PDF document with FF and try closing windo
11:16:19 [oedipus]
11:16:29 [oedipus]
SP: same with embedded YouTube clips
11:16:34 [oedipus]
TH: need to clarify this
11:16:35 [alessio]
11:16:57 [oedipus]
RM: irritating implementation bug
11:17:06 [alessio]
zakim, unmute me
11:17:06 [Zakim]
Alessio should no longer be muted
11:17:11 [oedipus]
SP: don't have control over communication mech between plugin and browser
11:17:22 [oedipus]
11:17:28 [ShaneM]
Embedded content is in an independent context, so any links within that content would replace the embedded content, and not effect the surrounding document.
11:17:44 [oedipus]
Alessio: why HTML5 created VIDEO and AUDIO elements -- mediatype specific
11:18:19 [oedipus];user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
11:19:12 [oedipus]
SM: still need to finish 7737 - "both behavior desireable - please suggest to author what happens when executed"
11:19:31 [oedipus]
SM: would like to leave open while discuss what @src does and how to provide both functionalities
11:19:50 [oedipus]
TH: author choice and consistency - implemented easier if one handling model
11:20:45 [ShaneM]
Embedded content is in an independent context, so any links within that content would replace the embedded content, and not effect the surrounding document. We will examine providing functionality to embed content inline in a specification separately.
11:20:45 [oedipus]
SP: agree that there are 2 use cases, but disagree that same mechanism should do both - server side includes, XML includes - do they solve use case or not - one reason why haven't made equivalency - if tech is defined elseshere then don't duplicate
11:21:26 [Steven]
11:21:33 [yamx]
11:21:37 [Steven]
11:22:18 [oedipus]
SM: 7738 editorial request - think should just do it
11:22:24 [oedipus];user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
11:22:46 [oedipus]
SP: example chosen to show can do for any source of element type
11:23:13 [oedipus]
SP: styling problem - CSS has no selector to tell you if something replaced or not
11:23:40 [oedipus]
SP: would be good for image - when resource fails, style thusly; when resource embedded, style in this manner
11:23:48 [oedipus]
TH: can't style embedded content anyway
11:24:14 [oedipus]
SP: if an image has been replaaced want a thick border around it; one that has replaced want @alt value in bold
11:24:24 [oedipus]
SP: how image element to be displayed when there and when not there
11:25:03 [oedipus]
SM: how would you do that? if provide fallback and want styled differently, wouldn't i put styling on embedded atttribute?
11:25:37 [oedipus]
SM: object to JimL's example?
11:25:55 [oedipus]
SP: he's right, but that's not point of example - example just shows can do on TABLE if want
11:26:02 [oedipus]
TH: remind JimL this is an example
11:26:08 [oedipus]
SP: only there to illustrate an option
11:26:38 [oedipus]
SP: probably had genesis in response to question "can i do this with TABLE?"
11:27:22 [oedipus]
TH: what happens if embed image - doesn't replace TABLE, but fills TABLE with image, but TABLE can't directly embed an image
11:27:35 [oedipus]
TH: how is embedding UA to deal with this in content model - an empty table?
11:27:47 [oedipus]
TH: embedding happens through DOM, won't get to content of TABLE
11:28:04 [oedipus]
SM: all the necessary stuff to is in DOM; DOM created before @src processed
11:28:21 [oedipus]
TH: first child node of TABLE node what do you get?
11:28:26 [oedipus]
11:28:43 [oedipus]
SP: replaced elements in CSS-terms -- CSS talks about replaced elements
11:28:57 [oedipus]
SP: content in DOM not replaced -content in presentation changed
11:29:18 [oedipus]
RM: complicated, styling implications need to be clarified, as well as what is in the DOM at any point in time
11:30:07 [oedipus]
TH: not directly related to issue, but need to investigate - people use javascript to change appearance after DOM loaded
11:30:40 [oedipus]
SP: if you change a piece of DOM that isn't displayed, still isn't displayed; if change parent to cause content to be displayed will be displayed
11:30:59 [oedipus]
SM: one way to look at this is that we haven't specified how one can tell a @src is successful via the DOM
11:31:14 [oedipus]
SP: problem with image already as argued before
11:32:09 [oedipus]
TH: can't get to it thorugh DOM - people are going to be confused - will take DIV and first child element TABLE and change, but can't get to TABLE
11:32:25 [oedipus]
SP: if they do that will discover what embedding really is
11:32:45 [oedipus]
SP: why spending so much time worrying about @src for HTML @src for anything at all
11:32:58 [oedipus]
RM: really only for opaque blocks - not what i exected
11:33:22 [oedipus]
SP: should discuss cases of embedding bits of XML and see if XMLInclude solves use case - tool for embedding fragments
11:33:40 [alessio]
11:33:42 [oedipus]
RM: also DISELECT which is intended to run client side and takes expressions so can change at runtime
11:33:50 [oedipus];user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
11:34:29 [oedipus]
SM: embedded resources styled with CSS - "If the embedded resource is an XHTML 2 document that is styled with CSS, such that content is positioned at top:-100px;left:-100px, must this content be rendered by a CSS supporting user agent, or is it implementation dependant:"
11:34:42 [oedipus]
SM: embedded resource in its block and everything related to that
11:34:49 [oedipus]
RM: high-grade with own anchor
11:35:24 [oedipus];user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
11:35:43 [oedipus]
SP: new WG inherited these issues
11:35:54 [oedipus]
SM: tabled pending resolution of other stuff, but now back on this
11:36:07 [oedipus]
SM: ISSUE 7734 - motivation for embedding attributes
11:36:31 [oedipus]
RM: most convincing (and perhaps only) case is LONGDESC
11:36:48 [oedipus]
SM: should say we can provide addditinoal examples and use cases
11:37:27 [oedipus]
SP: 2 examples are equivalent, but that isn't a problem
11:37:28 [oedipus]
11:37:28 [oedipus]
<img src="holiday" srctype="image/png, image/gif;q=0.5">
11:37:28 [oedipus]
An image of us on holiday
11:37:28 [oedipus]
11:37:28 [oedipus]
11:37:41 [oedipus]
equivalent to:
11:37:41 [oedipus]
<img src="temperature-graph.png" srctype="image/png">
11:37:41 [oedipus]
11:37:41 [oedipus]
<caption>Average monthly temperature over the last 20
11:37:41 [oedipus]
11:37:42 [oedipus]
11:37:44 [oedipus]
11:37:46 [oedipus]
11:37:48 [oedipus]
<tr><td> 4</td><td> 2</td><td>
11:37:50 [oedipus]
11:37:52 [oedipus]
11:37:54 [oedipus]
11:37:56 [oedipus]
7</td><td> 4</td>
11:37:58 [oedipus]
11:38:00 [oedipus]
11:38:02 [oedipus]
11:38:04 [oedipus]
SM: comments abour @srclang
11:38:18 [oedipus]
SP: for consistency, @src and @href should be aligned
11:38:35 [oedipus]
SP: @hreflang equiv: @srclang
11:38:38 [oedipus]
TH: add to Core?
11:38:45 [oedipus]
SP: embedding applies to everything
11:39:21 [oedipus];user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
11:39:44 [yamx]
66 minutes?
11:39:52 [oedipus]
11:40:10 [yamx]
see you later.
11:40:15 [oedipus]
RM: start at quarter to hour
11:40:17 [Zakim]
11:40:18 [Zakim]
11:40:18 [Zakim]
11:40:19 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutesx
11:40:19 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutesx', oedipus. Try /msg RRSAgent help
11:40:20 [Zakim]
11:40:21 [Zakim]
11:40:22 [Zakim]
11:40:24 [Zakim]
11:40:26 [Zakim]
IA_XHTML2()4:00AM has ended
11:40:27 [Zakim]
Attendees were Roland, Steven, Gregory_Rosmaita, Tina, ShaneM, yamx, Alessio, Yam
11:41:07 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutesx
11:41:07 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutesx', oedipus. Try /msg RRSAgent help
11:41:22 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
11:41:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
11:55:44 [oedipus_laptop]
oedipus_laptop has joined #xhtml
12:01:00 [oedipus_laptop]
oedipus_laptop has joined #xhtml
12:14:04 [alessio]
alessio has joined #xhtml
12:44:13 [Zakim]
IA_XHTML2()4:00AM has now started
12:44:20 [Zakim]
12:45:43 [yamx]
yamx has joined #xhtml
12:51:42 [Zakim]
12:52:23 [Zakim]
12:52:42 [yamx]
zakim, ??P21 is yamx
12:52:42 [Zakim]
+yamx; got it
12:53:14 [Zakim]
12:53:22 [alessio]
zakim, ??P15 is Alessio
12:53:22 [Zakim]
+Alessio; got it
12:53:50 [Steven]
Steven has joined #xhtml
12:54:03 [yamx]
12:54:15 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
12:54:16 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
12:54:17 [Zakim]
12:54:20 [oedipus]
it's 8:54 AM local time
12:56:29 [Steven]
zakim, who is on the phone?
12:56:29 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Roland, Gregory_Rosmaita, yamx, Alessio, Steven
12:58:33 [ShaneM]
12:58:52 [Zakim]
13:00:23 [Steven]
good plan
13:00:38 [Zakim]
13:01:10 [Zakim]
13:01:20 [oedipus]
RM: afternoon session start continuing with XHTML2 review
13:01:36 [oedipus];statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
13:02:05 [oedipus]
SM: completed looking at embedding buckets
13:02:32 [oedipus];user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
13:02:49 [oedipus]
SP: no, special markup for that called ITS and people should use that if want to
13:02:53 [oedipus]
SM: references ITS
13:02:58 [oedipus]
SM: so what are we missing?
13:03:26 [oedipus]
SP: use case - google translates pages automatically, some terms need to be handled specially
13:03:31 [oedipus]
SM: that's what ITS is for
13:03:48 [oedipus]
SM: if knows about ITS, then what need for TRANSLATE
13:03:57 [oedipus]
SP: became ITS rec in 2007
13:04:06 [oedipus]
RM: comment 15 months before that
13:04:11 [oedipus]
SM: include ITS in XHTML2?
13:04:35 [oedipus]
SM: don't see why not - wouldn't roll into namespace - can point to ITS with namespace independence
13:04:46 [oedipus]
SM: already created schema and implementation for it
13:04:59 [oedipus]
SP: is there a translate attribute in ITS - yes, they do
13:05:07 [oedipus]
SP: in own namespace
13:05:26 [yamx]
if you do, no objection.
13:05:35 [oedipus]
RESOLVED: Incorporate ITS (International Tag Set) into XHTML2
13:05:45 [oedipus]
SP: won't delay CR
13:05:47 [oedipus]
13:05:49 [ShaneM]
ACTION: Shane to add ITS into the XHTML 2 Doctype section
13:05:51 [alessio]
13:05:56 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
13:05:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
13:06:24 [oedipus]
s/into XHTML2/into XHTML2 Doctype Section
13:06:27 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
13:06:27 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
13:06:39 [oedipus];user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
13:08:18 [oedipus]
SM: Issue 7887 -
13:08:27 [oedipus]
13:08:57 [oedipus]
SP: thought: within XForms, have label, help, hint, and alert - MarkB oft proposed allowing everywhere in XHTML2 as well as XForms
13:09:05 [oedipus]
RM: think made that proposal at last f2f
13:09:13 [Zakim]
13:09:24 [oedipus]
SP: <img label="blah blah blah">
13:09:32 [oedipus]
SM: doesn't solve internationalization problem
13:09:56 [Steven]
It is <label>Foobar</label>
13:09:56 [oedipus]
SP: it is an element
13:10:01 [oedipus]
SM: doesn't make sense
13:10:09 [oedipus]
GJR like LABEL for FORM in HTML4?
13:10:36 [oedipus]
<img alt="blah" src="blach.png"><label>Blah</label></img>
13:10:51 [oedipus]
RM: if use title everywhere,
13:11:12 [oedipus]
GJR isn't @title for tooltip-type hints and alt for labelling in HTML4?
13:11:52 [oedipus]
RM: write same in ALT and TITLE because no garuntee of what will happen
13:12:04 [Steven]
Roland meant <title>My picture</title>
13:12:07 [oedipus]
RM: html doc has TITLE element
13:12:23 [oedipus]
RM: how displayed is separate question
13:12:42 [Steven]
that is <img src="..."><title>My house</title></img>
13:12:46 [oedipus]
SP: reason for not using title - confusion between @title and TITLE
13:12:57 [oedipus]
RM: why XForms has the 4 different elements
13:13:23 [alessio]
13:13:41 [oedipus]
RM: 1 meant to be rendered, 1 available for reuse, 1 meant to be rendered on user action, visible when error ocurs
13:13:53 [oedipus]
s/RM: 1/SP: 1
13:13:58 [oedipus]
SM: what is our plan
13:14:28 [alessio]
misunderstanding with alt and title started with IE
13:14:29 [oedipus]
RM: opened out - slightly broader - if do here, where else?
13:14:44 [alessio]
and the alt showed as a tooltip
13:15:18 [oedipus]
SP: within XForms answer is: it is used everywhere - could say is allowed anywhere text content is allowed
13:15:33 [oedipus]
RM: the "it" in the circumstance are the 4 elements
13:15:53 [oedipus]
RM: do we need/want all 4 elements everywhere - have an H for purpose
13:16:01 [oedipus]
SM: disagree - don't think H is purpose
13:16:23 [oedipus]
RM: 1 of 4 will always be rendered - what if have H and LABEL
13:17:48 [oedipus]
Explicit Association Pattern Collisions need to be straightened out - cascade or politeness order
13:18:28 [oedipus]
13:18:46 [oedipus]
SM: lost thread
13:19:14 [oedipus]
RM: what to do with this - open up for 4 state solution
13:19:24 [Tina]
Zakim: mute Tina
13:19:34 [oedipus]
RM: what are ramifications? what is resolution?
13:19:50 [oedipus]
SM: should open up - will mark issue as "suspended" while we deal with it
13:20:07 [oedipus]
RM: should we introduce the 4 from XForms into XHTML2
13:20:22 [oedipus]
RM: resolution of that will effect resolution of this issue
13:20:25 [Steven]
zakim, mute tina
13:20:25 [Zakim]
Tina should now be muted
13:21:05 [oedipus];statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
13:21:18 [oedipus];user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
13:21:31 [oedipus]
SM: suspended until LC
13:21:36 [oedipus]
SM: style attribute
13:21:53 [oedipus]
SP: personally, don't think style attribute should be in XHTML
13:21:58 [oedipus]
Alessio: agree totally
13:22:03 [Tina]
zakim, unmute tina
13:22:03 [Zakim]
Tina should no longer be muted
13:22:53 [yamx]
it is ok to remove @style attr.
13:23:31 [oedipus]
GJR: forms-based web needs inline styles - <span style="speak:spell-out">USA</span>
13:23:50 [oedipus]
SP: widely used by spammers to hide stuff
13:23:59 [oedipus]
RM: want ability to control some things inline
13:24:11 [oedipus]
TH: reminds me of yesterday's discussion of @target
13:24:24 [oedipus]
RM: just because one can misuse, shouldn't preclude valid use
13:24:48 [oedipus]
SP: requirement from GJR is that can markup but doesn't need style
13:24:58 [oedipus]
s/need style/need @style
13:25:26 [oedipus]
SP: style and presentation should be separate
13:25:35 [oedipus]
GJR: agree, but need to use tools we have
13:25:53 [oedipus]
SP: better to say want to specify things can be spoken - don't require CSS
13:26:03 [oedipus]
RM: we don't but a given author might have CSS around
13:26:38 [oedipus]
RM: example: assembly of fragments - need to specify by STYLE to define a fragment so has style definition and content
13:26:53 [Zakim]
13:27:09 [oedipus]
RM: need ability to associate style is a use case, but not necessarily for @style
13:27:34 [oedipus]
RM: through SCRIPT want to define my script in my block and STYLE (element) inline
13:27:46 [oedipus]
RM: not case in older MLs - can't put outside of HEAD
13:28:20 [oedipus]
RM: use STYLE element so can make relevant to discrete blocks of content
13:28:28 [alessio]
alessio has joined #xhtml
13:29:02 [oedipus]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION?: @style is deprecated/eliminated; STYLE element can be used outside HEAD
13:29:41 [alessio]
13:30:03 [Zakim]
13:30:08 [ShaneM]
13:30:12 [alessio]
zakim, IPcaller is Alessio
13:30:12 [Zakim]
+Alessio; got it
13:30:14 [Steven]
I can live with that
13:30:16 [oedipus]
RESOLVED: @style is deprecated/eliminated; STYLE element can be used outside HEAD
13:30:19 [yamx]
13:30:43 [oedipus]
TH: users will have use cases for it - this attribute (@style) will continue to be used - what do we do about that
13:30:44 [Steven]
zakim, mute alessio temporarily
13:30:44 [Zakim]
Alessio should now be muted
13:30:59 [oedipus]
RM: is it in draft?
13:31:00 [Zakim]
Alessio should now be unmuted again
13:31:01 [oedipus]
SP: yes
13:31:08 [oedipus]
RM: to be resolved?
13:31:25 [oedipus]
SP: always in that state - in, out, in, out, then marked "this is an issue"
13:31:31 [oedipus]
SM: marked as issue in draft right now
13:31:44 [ShaneM]
13:33:03 [oedipus]
TH: support resolution, but should be consistent in how we deal with controversial attributes (such as @target) - why not give authors option of having it there
13:33:12 [oedipus]
TH: consistent if we can
13:33:28 [oedipus]
SM: same argument put forward at f2f 4 years ago at TP -
13:33:50 [oedipus]
SM: deprecated in XHTML1
13:34:09 [yamx]
if it is already deprecated, we can eliminate it.
13:34:49 [oedipus]
s/RESOLVED: @style is deprecated/eliminated/RESOLVED: @style is eliminated
13:34:54 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
13:34:54 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
13:35:10 [ShaneM]
13:35:36 [oedipus]
RM: does that satisfy you, tina?
13:35:41 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
13:35:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
13:35:46 [yamx]
"deprecate" is a fair warning for future elimination.
13:36:03 [oedipus]
TH: taking out some controversial things and leaving in others
13:36:20 [oedipus]
RM: for what has been taken out, have done so because needs been addressed otherwise
13:36:31 [oedipus]
RM: not just style for individual element, but grouping of elements
13:36:59 [oedipus]
SM: agree a separate issue - but don't want to return to today
13:37:05 [oedipus]
TH: need policy, not adress ad hoc
13:37:38 [oedipus]
SM: do have policy about when things are deprecated or removed - remove when suitable replacement that can be recommended
13:37:52 [oedipus]
(scribe's note - consult Yam's comment above, as well)
13:38:13 [oedipus]
SP: if can show use case can be solved in better way
13:38:31 [oedipus]
SM: when features deprecated only done when other things to point to -- good statement to make
13:39:17 [oedipus]
ACTION: ShaneM - Draft policy statement on migration and evolution
13:39:23 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
13:39:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
13:39:31 [yamx]
done deal..
13:39:34 [oedipus]
SM: next comment is "please leave @style in"
13:39:41 [oedipus]
SP: bimodal issue
13:39:54 [oedipus]
RM: here we have is what we believe is an alternative
13:40:04 [oedipus]
GJR: example BLOCKQUOTE for formatting in HTML4
13:40:16 [oedipus]
SM: 2 options for specifying styles (link)
13:40:27 [oedipus]
SM: recording resolutions in tracking system
13:41:03 [oedipus]
tables bucket:;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
13:41:10 [oedipus];user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
13:41:23 [oedipus]
SM: never understood this comment (issue 7828)
13:41:45 [oedipus]
question: "Why no nested colgroup or rowgroup?"
13:41:55 [oedipus]
Alessio: don't understand either
13:42:21 [oedipus]
Yam: cannot shed light on it either
13:42:37 [oedipus]
SM: reason not to?
13:42:42 [oedipus]
TH: semantic reason why?
13:42:48 [oedipus]
SP: implementation?
13:42:59 [oedipus]
SM: colgroup and rowgroup not supported now
13:43:43 [oedipus]
TH: use case described says common use, but sounds like manipulation of data, not valid markup
13:44:01 [oedipus]
RM: need to be able to have aggregation of set of columns
13:44:09 [oedipus]
TH: can you do with col today?
13:44:26 [oedipus]
RM: dojo tables include sorting of rows
13:44:41 [oedipus]
GJR notes that this affects @scope (scope="colgroup")
13:44:52 [oedipus]
RM: why not just reject
13:44:56 [oedipus]
SM: rationale?
13:45:07 [oedipus]
SP: don't understand how the markup would help your use case
13:45:37 [oedipus]
TH: can do what want to do today with col and id - don't see why would want to nest THEAD and TFOOT
13:45:43 [oedipus]
SM: not semantically sensible
13:46:16 [oedipus]
RM: suggestion doesn't solve use case - tell us problem, not your idea of solution - what are requirements
13:46:21 [oedipus]
SM: ok
13:46:35 [oedipus]
SM: leave in state of feedback - send and await answer
13:46:46 [oedipus];user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
13:47:34 [oedipus]
SM: question is "what is the scope of a header" = note that we need a better explanation - think this is in wrong bucket - move to structural
13:47:48 [oedipus]
s/= note/-- note
13:48:56 [oedipus]
SM: person responsible for TABLE chapter hasn't been active for a few years - would like to reassign - volunteer?
13:49:05 [oedipus]
zakim, pick a victim
13:49:05 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose yamx
13:49:28 [oedipus]
TH: i volunteer, but swamped with work - cannot garuntee complete attention
13:49:30 [yamx]
13:50:03 [oedipus]
SP: if no one else wants it i will take it
13:50:08 [oedipus]
RM: list of open sections?
13:50:27 [oedipus]
SM: master list in control system
13:50:45 [oedipus]
SM: only see if admin
13:51:28 [oedipus]
ACTION: ShaneM - create and maintain ownership of wiki page listing who owns what bucket
13:51:35 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
13:51:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
13:51:49 [oedipus];user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
13:52:31 [oedipus]
SM: Issue 7881 related to 7828
13:52:32 [oedipus];user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
13:52:43 [oedipus]
SM: already asked for more info and a description
13:53:18 [oedipus]
SM: follow-ups to public discussion list, so other people chime in
13:53:50 [oedipus]
SM: claims can put in multiple TBODY elements and magic ocurs
13:54:43 [oedipus]
SM: will examine more
13:54:54 [oedipus]
SM: text bucket;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
13:55:20 [oedipus]
SM: Issue 7876 agreed but marked as open
13:55:33 [oedipus];user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
13:55:45 [oedipus];user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
13:55:56 [oedipus]
SM: requested example of L versus BR from submiter
13:56:04 [oedipus]
SM: many requests to have BR reinstated
13:56:12 [oedipus]
SP: thought agreed to do it
13:56:23 [oedipus]
SM: ok
13:57:17 [oedipus]
(Shane experiences technical difficulties)
13:57:29 [oedipus]
TH: use case for 7882 doesn't make sense
13:57:48 [oedipus]
SM: agree
13:58:13 [oedipus]
SM: example spurious, but number of people including DanC and TBL who want it back in, so don't really have choice
13:58:20 [oedipus]
SP: did agree to restore a while ago
13:58:30 [oedipus]
RM: should be implementable in existing browsers
13:58:53 [oedipus]
TH: other use cases for BR - so don't mind having back
13:59:01 [oedipus];user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
13:59:21 [oedipus]
SM: 7885 - DFN
13:59:57 [oedipus]
TH: nothing to do with italics and i and typography - has specific semantic interpretation
14:00:12 [oedipus]
TH: argument is "traditional typographers"
14:00:20 [oedipus]
SP: means don't want just I
14:00:42 [oedipus]
RM: agree to put DFN in?
14:00:48 [oedipus]
SP: don't remember removing it?
14:00:52 [oedipus]
SP: why would we have?
14:01:03 [oedipus]
GJR: think still there
14:01:13 [oedipus]
SP: think just missed it - don't think we ever took it out
14:01:22 [oedipus]
RM: be happy
14:01:30 [oedipus]
SP: which module?
14:01:30 [alessio]
agree, dfn has a scope
14:01:32 [oedipus]
SM: text
14:01:45 [oedipus]
SM: probably inline - PCDATA or text
14:01:56 [oedipus]
SM: can't have DFN that is a DIV
14:02:26 [yamx]
I have access to w3c.
14:02:49 [oedipus]
SM: 7899 already agreed
14:02:59 [oedipus];statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
14:03:05 [oedipus]
SM: section on XForms
14:03:18 [oedipus]
14:03:40 [oedipus]
SM: states: "they are presentational and shouldn't be in structural langauge"
14:03:52 [oedipus]
SP: misunderstanding of XForms
14:04:11 [oedipus]
SM: not permitted to sub-set XForms, and if didn't have, would compromise XForms
14:04:21 [oedipus]
RM: bring up with XForms group
14:04:39 [oedipus]
SM: reject request - go tell Forms
14:04:54 [oedipus]
SM: autocomplete attribute
14:04:54 [oedipus];user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
14:05:19 [oedipus]
SP: not our issue, please consult Forms WG
14:05:26 [oedipus]
RM: already replied that
14:05:38 [oedipus]
RM: you added question - what would they do?
14:05:51 [oedipus]
RM: not in our scope
14:05:55 [oedipus]
SM: agree and marked as such
14:06:04 [alessio]
14:06:13 [oedipus];statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
14:06:20 [oedipus];user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
14:06:36 [oedipus]
SM: Issue 674 suspended - decided to use parameter on mediatype
14:06:45 [oedipus]
SM: have to do something about it
14:07:06 [oedipus]
SP: if want to do that, have to update RFC, so is our responsibility
14:07:08 [oedipus]
SM: ok
14:07:22 [oedipus]
RM: who can work IETF process
14:08:02 [oedipus]
ACTION: ShaneM - write up how WG believes parameters should work on media type and talk with Mark Baker about how to get RFC updated
14:08:33 [oedipus]
SP: RFC 3236 -
14:09:12 [oedipus]
SP: application+xml has optional profile parameter - section 8 says "this parameter solves short-term problem of ... used only in content negotiation"
14:09:19 [oedipus]
SM: XHTML Basic doesn't use it
14:09:23 [oedipus]
SP: thought it did
14:09:38 [yamx]
we use profile in OMA.
14:09:44 [oedipus]
SP: XHTML Basic usage in OMA has different specifications
14:09:47 [yamx]
14:09:54 [yamx]
in XHTML Mobile Profile.
14:10:11 [oedipus]
SP: looks to me like don't have to update 3236 - can use profile and say "this is the value of profile"
14:10:16 [oedipus]
SM: put in language specs?
14:10:25 [oedipus]
SM: if want this, use profile X
14:10:40 [oedipus]
SM: M12n - which families of XHTML you support
14:10:49 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:10:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
14:11:14 [oedipus]
SM: want to address 7726
14:11:15 [oedipus];user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
14:11:38 [oedipus]
SM: Issue 7726 - Add XInclude module
14:11:50 [oedipus]
SM: requestor wants XInclude
14:12:01 [oedipus]
SM: think he is wrong - won't replace FRAME or IFRAME
14:12:19 [oedipus]
SP: bit complicated, but would solve what TH and i discussed earlier
14:12:33 [oedipus]
14:12:43 [oedipus]
14:12:43 [ShaneM]
The working group is considering this in the context of the larger issue of embedding resources in documents.
14:12:55 [oedipus]
SM: proposed comment
14:13:04 [oedipus]
SM: when have answer, return to issue
14:13:09 [oedipus]
RM: reasonable
14:13:14 [oedipus]
(no objections logged)
14:13:40 [oedipus]
ACTION: Roland - investigate what would be involved by adding XInclude
14:13:54 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:13:54 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
14:14:17 [oedipus]
SM: next issue: MediaDesc with CSS3
14:14:18 [oedipus];user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
14:14:26 [oedipus]
SM: CSS3 not going to be ready soon
14:14:40 [oedipus]
SP: been in CR since june 2007
14:14:49 [oedipus]
14:15:01 [oedipus]
SP: not against this, but not rec so can't quote yet
14:15:17 [oedipus]
SM: why labelled as open
14:15:44 [oedipus]
SM: notes for Issues 7659 and 7656 need to be broken into individual issues
14:15:55 [oedipus]
TH: nothing need to do until broken down
14:16:03 [oedipus]
SM: we need to do the breaking down
14:16:38 [oedipus]
ACTION: ShaneM - break Issues 7659 and 7656 into individual issues so can be addressed
14:16:45 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:16:45 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
14:17:07 [oedipus]
SM: handful of items in XML Events
14:17:38 [oedipus]
RM: this is what you do now
14:17:49 [oedipus]
SM: should put in spec, right?
14:17:53 [oedipus]
RM: in new Script Module
14:18:29 [oedipus]
SP: 8018 - NOSCRIPT is there because of Document.Write - if can't do document.write, don't need NOSCRIPT - insert NOSCRIPT into document and let SCRIPT get rid of it
14:18:50 [oedipus]
RM: what i used to do, what i do now, what i can expect when serve to legacy UA
14:19:13 [oedipus]
SM: requirement for NOSCRIPT
14:19:31 [oedipus]
SP: replied to guy and he thinks he understands it
14:20:07 [oedipus]
SM: i'll find it
14:20:22 [oedipus]
SP: explained and said this issue can be closed by mutual agreement
14:20:45 [oedipus]
SP: reply to him, WG and wg-issues
14:21:15 [oedipus]
14:21:27 [oedipus]
SM: not in issue tracking sytem - will close issue
14:21:31 [Steven_]
Steven_ has joined #xhtml
14:21:53 [Steven_]
14:22:05 [Steven_]
14:22:31 [oedipus]
SM: John Boyer submitted a couple of issues
14:23:01 [oedipus]
8029 - Issue with phase attribute in XML Events 2
14:23:06 [oedipus];user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
14:23:12 [oedipus]
SM: additional @target
14:23:15 [oedipus]
SP: done that
14:23:21 [oedipus]
RM: yes
14:23:33 [oedipus]
Issue 8029 closed
14:23:39 [oedipus];user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
14:24:02 [oedipus]
SM: if and while attributes - evaluation not defined - we have done with XPath section
14:24:15 [oedipus]
SM: context is there is no context
14:24:24 [Steven_]
s/evaluation/evaluation context/
14:24:44 [oedipus]
Issue 8031 - XML Events with repeated content
14:24:45 [oedipus];user=guest;statetype=-3;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
14:24:57 [oedipus]
SM: thought Forms WG discussed, but don't know how to fix
14:25:29 [oedipus]
"Now, we would like to be able to say that the item element is the target of the xforms-hint event so that one can provide item-specific events. Yet"
14:25:59 [oedipus]
RM: done a lot of updates to XML Events 2 covering this, so should suggest they take another look
14:26:21 [oedipus]
SP: think his problem is that markup doesn't match DOM tree
14:26:33 [oedipus]
SP: due to repeats expanding DOM tree
14:27:00 [oedipus]
SP: think this is XForms
14:27:20 [oedipus]
s/XForms/XForms'' problem
14:28:02 [oedipus]
SP: XForms has to define triggering - element repeats causes DOM tree to expand, need to find out what happens with Events - do handlers get duplicated for every repeated sub-tree
14:28:26 [oedipus]
SM: should ask to look at document again
14:28:39 [oedipus]
RM: DOM tree events are choices they made
14:28:55 [oedipus]
SM: assigning XML Events bucket to you
14:29:02 [oedipus]
SP: end?
14:29:12 [oedipus]
SM: save for the massive "incoming" bucket
14:29:37 [oedipus]
RM: 15 minute break then go through other agenda items (update requests) and if time and energy can attack incoming
14:29:53 [oedipus]
SM: data point: RDFa group meeting in 3 minutes time - someone from this WG needs to be there
14:29:58 [oedipus]
SP: i have to leave at 5
14:30:20 [Zakim]
14:30:23 [Zakim]
14:30:26 [oedipus]
======== FIFTEEN MINUTE BREAK =============
14:30:28 [Zakim]
14:30:33 [yamx]
ok, see you later.
14:30:36 [Zakim]
14:30:39 [Zakim]
14:32:20 [Zakim]
14:42:52 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:42:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
14:45:05 [Zakim]
14:45:30 [yamx]
yamx has joined #xhtml
14:45:38 [Steven_]
zakim, dial steven-617
14:45:39 [Zakim]
ok, Steven_; the call is being made
14:45:40 [Zakim]
14:46:20 [Zakim]
14:46:22 [Zakim]
14:46:26 [alessio]
zakim, ??P6 is Alessio
14:46:26 [Zakim]
+Alessio; got it
14:46:29 [ShaneM]
CURIE further update:
14:46:35 [yamx]
zakim, ??P7 is yamx
14:46:35 [Zakim]
+yamx; got it
14:46:54 [Zakim]
14:47:18 [oedipus]
14:47:34 [yamx]
This is the first time to make any intensive XHTML2 issue discussion in my 2-year XHTML2 experinece.
14:47:44 [alessio]
14:47:54 [yamx]
14:48:05 [oedipus]
14:48:16 [oedipus]
SM: new update in response to latest comments
14:48:17 [ShaneM]
14:48:25 [oedipus]
14:49:20 [oedipus]
SM: incorporated all changes discussed on tuesday; brief discussion wednesday morning, and updated appendix a to be informative, pointed to normative datatype module, and
14:49:39 [Steven]
Are people talking? I hear nothing
14:49:55 [oedipus]
SM: not sure what to do about declaring normative
14:50:05 [Zakim]
14:50:11 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
14:50:11 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:50:13 [oedipus]
RM: inferred? do we want to define a normative def
14:50:13 [Zakim]
14:50:27 [oedipus]
SM: M12n doesn't know about CURIEs yet
14:50:57 [oedipus]
SM: think we should just go for it
14:51:16 [oedipus]
SM: suggestion is change this so those are normative definitions?
14:51:47 [oedipus]
GJR, ok with me
14:51:59 [alessio]
14:52:00 [yamx]
PR, no objection.
14:52:01 [oedipus]
SM: can we move forward to PR transition based on this draft?
14:52:20 [yamx]
CR, no objection.
14:52:25 [oedipus]
RESOLVED: transition CURIEs to CR
14:52:31 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:52:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
14:52:44 [oedipus]
RM: good - one down
14:52:53 [Zakim]
14:52:54 [Steven]
ACTION: Steven to organise CURIEs CR
14:53:04 [oedipus]
14:53:23 [oedipus]
SM: decided to postpone access
14:53:27 [oedipus]
14:53:30 [ShaneM]
14:53:46 [oedipus]
SM: update based on f2f discussions - prepared for CR
14:54:21 [oedipus]
SM: incorporate all changes we discussed except links to examples from ARIA - wasn't comfortable putting in at top of Section 3
14:54:34 [oedipus]
SM: tried to remember what we were trying to demonstrate
14:54:48 [oedipus]
RM: bad practice <div role="paragraph">
14:54:58 [oedipus]
i can get a better example
14:55:24 [Tina]
Where was the best-practice bit added?
14:55:34 [oedipus]
tina, top of sectoin 3
14:55:59 [oedipus]
14:56:11 [Tina]
I'm fine with the wording
14:56:41 [oedipus]
SM: example in here now role="navigation sitemap" -- should fix - don't define navigation sitemap
14:56:46 [oedipus]
'SM: other examples?
14:57:28 [oedipus]
GJR: a real list versus a bunch of lines separated by <br /> or using div /div instead of l /l
14:57:35 [alessio]
what about role="video" or role="presentation" ?
14:57:40 [oedipus]
RM: appropriate and then inappropriate example
14:58:15 [oedipus]
ACTION: ShaneM - provide appropriate and then inappropriate example for Section 3
14:58:29 [oedipus]
GJR will help ShaneM - there are better examples i can provide
14:58:42 [oedipus]
RM: Shane, leaving for RDFa call?
14:58:49 [oedipus]
SM: if i can be spared
14:58:53 [oedipus]
RM: scheduling
14:59:05 [alessio]
and I'll help shane + gregory ;)
14:59:24 [oedipus]
RM: how long to take to get thorugh CR transitions?
14:59:36 [oedipus]
SP: which ones - depends on how long have to wait for implementations
14:59:42 [oedipus]
14:59:57 [oedipus]
SP: RDFa providing implementations
15:00:11 [oedipus]
RM: roadmap POV - get to CR before july
15:00:22 [oedipus]
RM: CURIEs and Role into CR in July 2008
15:00:24 [oedipus]
SP: yes
15:00:27 [oedipus]
SM: works for me
15:00:39 [oedipus]
RM: new draft of XHTML2 by end of next week or end of month
15:00:40 [oedipus]
SM: sure
15:00:50 [oedipus]
RM: other significant roadmapping items?
15:00:55 [Steven]
Future meetings?
15:01:01 [oedipus]
RM: 2 gone to PR - Basic and M12n
15:01:14 [oedipus]
SM: 30 day period
15:01:21 [oedipus]
SP: out of our hands - happens or doesn'
15:01:23 [oedipus]
15:01:32 [oedipus]
RM: Role Module to CR timeframe?
15:01:38 [oedipus]
RM: July 2008?
15:01:46 [oedipus]
SP: take CURIEs and Role at same call
15:01:58 [oedipus]
RM: Access Module holdup?
15:02:04 [oedipus]
RM: waiting for feedback
15:02:22 [oedipus]
RM: XML Events 2
15:02:32 [oedipus]
RM: Last Call for XML Events 2 in July
15:02:37 [oedipus]
SP: sounds good if we can
15:03:09 [oedipus]
RM: anything else to discuss? will update roadmap this week
15:03:15 [Steven]
future meetings
15:03:24 [oedipus]
RM: schedule block of time on next few calls to go through rest of XHTML2 issues
15:03:28 [oedipus]
SP: future meetings
15:03:47 [oedipus]
RM: next scheduled one is at TPAC in south of france (october 2008)
15:04:12 [oedipus]
SM: are we meeting next wednesday?
15:04:14 [oedipus]
RM: yes
15:04:20 [oedipus]
SM: would prefer we do
15:04:41 [Zakim]
15:04:50 [oedipus]
SP: adjournment?
15:04:55 [oedipus]
SP: great meeting
15:05:01 [oedipus]
RM: thanks everybody
15:05:14 [Zakim]
15:05:15 [oedipus]
RM: lets keep the momentum -- until next week...
15:05:15 [Zakim]
15:05:17 [Zakim]
15:05:19 [Zakim]
15:05:24 [oedipus]
========= ADJOURN ==========
15:05:30 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:05:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
15:05:34 [Steven]
thanks Gregory for minuting today
15:05:36 [Zakim]
15:05:51 [Zakim]
15:05:52 [Zakim]
IA_XHTML2()4:00AM has ended
15:05:53 [Zakim]
Attendees were Roland, Gregory_Rosmaita, yamx, Alessio, Steven, ShaneM, Tina
15:05:55 [Tina]
oedipus: thank you :)
15:05:59 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:05:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Steven
15:06:02 [oedipus]
you are welcome
15:06:15 [oedipus]
it's a pleasure to be in a WG that actually lives up to its name!
15:06:30 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:06:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
15:07:56 [oedipus]
s/@style is deprecated/eliminated/@style is eliminated
15:07:59 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:07:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
15:09:06 [oedipus]
s/@style is deprecated/eliminated/@style is eliminated/
15:09:09 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:09:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
15:10:04 [oedipus]
s/RESOLVED: @style is deprecated/eliminated/RESOLVED: @style is eliminated
15:10:06 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:10:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
15:11:00 [oedipus]
is ]] the escape for sed?
15:11:26 [oedipus]
trying to change s/RESOLVED: @style is deprecated/eliminated to RESOLVED: @style is eliminated
15:12:08 [oedipus]
s/RESOLVED: @style is deprecated/RESOLVED: @style is eliminated
15:12:13 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:12:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
15:13:33 [oedipus]
15:17:22 [oedipus]
rrsagent, please part
15:17:22 [RRSAgent]
I see 14 open action items saved in :
15:17:22 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Roland to reply to HTML5 WG to communicate our resolution on XHTML naming [1]
15:17:22 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:17:22 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Steven to start an implementation page on the wiki [2]
15:17:22 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:17:22 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ShaneM - incorporate Access, Role, XML Events (in 3 modules: Events, Handlers, Script), and RDFa modules through external reference to XHTML2? [3]
15:17:22 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:17:22 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Steven - devote brain cycles to solving quality values question [4]
15:17:22 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:17:22 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Steven - combine answer to ISSUE 7800 with answer to ISSUE 7799 [5]
15:17:22 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:17:22 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Steven add text to @src section to make clear that item not in DOM and clarify styling implications [6]
15:17:22 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:17:22 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Shane to add ITS into the XHTML 2 Doctype section [7]
15:17:22 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:17:22 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ShaneM - Draft policy statement on migration and evolution [8]
15:17:22 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:17:22 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ShaneM - create and maintain ownership of wiki page listing who owns what bucket [9]
15:17:22 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:17:22 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ShaneM - write up how WG believes parameters should work on media type and talk with Mark Baker about how to get RFC updated [10]
15:17:22 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:17:22 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Roland - investigate what would be involved by adding XInclude [11]
15:17:22 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:17:22 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ShaneM - break Issues 7659 and 7656 into individual issues so can be addressed [12]
15:17:22 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:17:22 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Steven to organise CURIEs CR [13]
15:17:22 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:17:22 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ShaneM - provide appropriate and then inappropriate example for Section 3 [14]
15:17:22 [RRSAgent]
recorded in