07:45:12 RRSAgent has joined #xhtml
07:45:12 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-irc
07:45:20 rrsagent, make log public
07:45:27 zakim, this will be xhtml
07:45:27 ok, Steven; I see IA_XHTML2()4:00AM scheduled to start in 15 minutes
07:45:51 Meeting: XHTML2 WG Virtual FtF Day 3
07:45:55 Chair: Roland
07:50:34 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2008-06-FtF-Agenda0401
07:50:43 rrsagent, make minutes
07:50:43 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
07:54:00 oedipus has joined #xhtml
07:55:03 Roland has joined #xhtml
08:01:01 IA_XHTML2()4:00AM has now started
08:01:08 +Roland
08:01:14 zakim, dial steven-617
08:01:16 ok, Steven; the call is being made
08:01:16 +Steven
08:01:33 +Gregory_Rosmaita
08:02:17 +Tina
08:03:59 omw
08:04:36 +ShaneM
08:04:51 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/32107/xhtml2summer08/
08:06:05 yamx has joined #xhtml
08:06:13 Sorry, late. I will call in.
08:06:48 +??P4
08:07:06 Zakim, ??P4 is yamx
08:07:06 +yamx; got it
08:08:20 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jun/0045.html
08:10:27 Topic: HTML5 and XHTML 1.*
08:10:42 associated issue: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/52
08:11:44 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/products/1
08:11:54 is all the issues
08:13:08 http://www.w3.org/2007/03/HTML-WG-charter.html
08:13:25 HTML5 Diff From HTML4 WG Note: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/diff/
08:13:45 The word "XHTML" doesn't appear in their charter
08:13:51 "The HTML 5 language has a "custom" HTML syntax that is compatible with HTML 4 and XHTML1 documents published on the Web, but is not compatible with the more esoteric SGML features of HTML 4, such as The other syntax that can be used for HTML 5 is XML. This syntax is compatible with XHTML1 documents and implementations. Documents using this syntax need to be served with an XML MIME type and elements need to be put in the http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml namespace following the rules set forth by the XML specifications. [XML]
08:14:21 Below is an example document that conforms to the XML syntax of HTML 5. Note that XML documents must have an XML MIME type such as application/xhtml+xml or application/xml.
08:22:01 I am wondering... hmmm..
08:22:10 Steven_ has joined #xhtml
08:22:19 Their notification is not productive...
08:24:08 "XHTML 1.1 - Module-based XHTML (REC) - track errata, publish third edition as required"
08:25:28 "This specification is intended to replace XHTML 1.0 as the normative definition of the XML serialisation of the HTML vocabulary. [XHTML10]"
08:28:04 I believe our charter is clear - we are responsible for maintaining and evolving XHTML 1 and XHTML 2. The HTML Working Group's charter does not mention XHTML at all.
08:28:16 I agree with Shane.
08:29:09 Scribe: Steven
08:29:26 HTML WG charter states: "An extensible, serialized form of such a language, using XML"
08:29:45 "The HTML WG is encouraged to provide a mechanism to permit independently developed vocabularies such as Internationalization Tag Set (ITS), Ruby, and RDFa to be mixed into HTML documents. Whether this occurs through the extensibility mechanism of XML, whether it is also allowed in the classic HTML serialization, and whether it uses the DTD and Schema modularization techniques, is for the HTML WG to determine."
08:29:48 Roland: Our charter mentions work on XHTML, inbcluding 1.0
08:29:54 s/inb/in/
08:30:24 Roland: So if we create a 1.2 that would crystalise the situation
08:30:29 Shane: I agree
08:30:42 ... I have it in writing from Chris Lilley that we can do a 1.2
08:31:34 institutional angst is but the tip of the existential iceberg
08:32:57 Roland: We should raise it at the HCG
08:33:06 ... it is clearly in the charters
08:33:22 Tina: Regarding 1.2
08:34:01 ... quoting above, it says that HTML5 replaces XHTML 1.0
08:34:27 ... so what about XHTML2?
08:34:27 They cannot replace XHTML2...
08:34:43 Shane: They are trying to orphan XHTML2
08:35:08 They will change "Relationship to XHTML 1.x" to "Relationship to XHTML m.n". :-)
08:35:57 ... we need to respond forcefully
08:36:27 Shane: By charter we are responsible for the XHTML series, and HTML5 is not chartered to do that
08:37:55 Tina: Is Mike's response a formal one from the WG?
08:38:07 Gregory: We haven't discussed it in the group
08:38:18 Shane: So they made a change without discussion
08:38:24 s/ a / the /
08:38:38 Tina: We should reply that we are chartered to do that work
08:38:40 ... I just cannot understand how they work in HTML5....
08:39:03 Roland: We should keep it short, and not debate the points
08:39:06 root of problem: (from Status of this Document) - "The latest stable version of the editor's draft of this specification is always available on the W3C CVS server and in the WHATWG Subversion repository. The latest editor's working copy (which may contain unfinished text in the process of being prepared) is available on the WHATWG site. "
08:39:42 Shane: We should reply that they should remove all text that gives the impression that they are producing XHTML
08:40:47 I agree.
08:40:52 amen
08:41:01 I support the resolution.
08:41:41 Rationale... they are introducing confusion in the marketplace and damaging the brand that is XHTML. This is harmful and misleading.
08:41:53 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: The WG recognises that we are chartered to maintain and develop the XHTML series, and the HTML5 specification should therefore not contain text that makes it appear differently
08:42:09 yes.
08:42:10 RESOLUTION: The WG recognises that we are chartered to maintain and develop the XHTML series, and the HTML5 specification should therefore not contain text that makes it appear differently
08:42:15 +1
08:42:17 +1
08:42:25 In particular, HTML5 is NOT empowered to supercede XHTML *anything*
08:42:37 ACTION: Roland to reply to HTML5 WG to communicate our resolution on XHTML naming
08:42:43 rrsagent, make minutes
08:42:43 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html Steven_
08:43:26 s/Scribe: Steven/Scribe: Steven_/
08:43:32 rrsagent, make minutes
08:43:32 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html Steven_
08:43:57 Scribe: Steven
08:44:55 Proposal: Re-issue XHTML 1.0 removing appendix C and pointing to XHTMLMIME.
08:44:57 that will be VERY helpful
08:45:14 Shane: Would that be a good idea?
08:45:19 Gregory: Yes
08:45:32 Steven: We are chartered to do it
08:46:19 rrsagent, make minutes
08:46:19 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
08:46:45 Topic: RDFa
08:46:55 Roland: What do we have to do?
08:47:17 Proposed CR end date for RDFa is 18 July
08:48:12 Steven: There are lots of implementations
08:48:21 ... so the CR period will be short
08:48:30 ... we have XHTML 1.1+RDFa
08:48:44 ... and we can merge that with @role and so on, and create 1.2
08:50:38 Roland: Is the media type issue resolved?
08:50:43 Shane: Maybe not
08:51:19 Steven: Not clear. TimBL has sent a new message; not clear if that reopens the issue
08:52:04 Lachy has joined #xhtml
08:52:10 alessio has joined #xhtml
08:52:13 Shane: He has an issue about how you ask the server for the RDF involved with a document
08:52:28 ... but I think the media type issue is solved
08:53:02 ... the peripheral issue is about 'announcement'; how an author says that a document contains RDF
08:53:50 ... Ralph in his recent message
08:53:56 "If saying SHOULD for *any* of the 3 document conformance options 4, 5, or 6 leaves the reader with the impression that NOT doing any of the three means the author has NOT intended to state these triples then I would agree with your concern. However, these SHOULDs are there for 3 different reasons."
08:54:01 ... http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jun/0056.html
08:54:15 ... suggests that authors MAY add version information
08:54:21 ... any opinions?
08:55:17 ... I've never used MAY in this context
08:56:04 Steven: I have trouble understanding what Tim really wants
08:56:10 RFC2119 def of MAY: This word, or the adjective "OPTIONAL", mean that an item is truly optional. One vendor may choose to include the item because a particular marketplace requires it or because the vendor feels that it enhances the product while another vendor may omit the same item. An implementation which does not include a particular option MUST be prepared to interoperate with another implementation which does include the option, though perhaps with red
08:56:17 Shane: I mean more generally, what does it mean to say MAY for the author
08:56:53 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-rdfa-syntax-20080616/#docconf
08:57:12 GJR thinks SHOULD should remain SHOULD
08:59:59 Steven: Ralph seems to want to be able to extract RDF from a doc without a DOCTYPE, or a version, or a profile
09:00:05 Shane: Yes, and he thinks Tim does too
09:00:14 I agree with Steven on putting "MAY" for author conformance... But maybe it is because usually we avoid any document conformance....
09:00:15 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jun/0054.html
09:00:24 Shane: But I don't agree that that is what Tim wants
09:00:38 ... he seems to be a big supporter of GRDDL
09:01:56 "You could say, (2) "All servers MUST put the namespace GRDDL, and clients MAY use namespace GRDDL, or may use inherent knowledge of the spec." That would work in all cases." [...] "So I suspect you want go with (2). To define RDFa conformance. Obviously, people might want to make documents in the short term which work equally well by conforming to the GRDDL spec (document profile method) and by RDFa but that is a distraction."
09:01:59 Steven: GRDDL is not harmful to RDFa
09:02:30 Shane: CR may be held up by Tim's comment
09:02:56 ... we may be asked to quickly decide on changes to the conformance clause to fix this objection
09:06:04 see you later.
09:06:07 ... the TF has been told verbally that the changes they had made would satisfy Tim's objection.
09:06:10 -ShaneM
09:06:12 ==== 2 min break ===
09:06:18 -yamx
09:06:23 === bacl at xx:25 ===
09:06:27 -Steven
09:06:33 -Gregory_Rosmaita
09:10:32 if i don't use a speaker phone, i often inadvertantly cover the mouthpiece so it is easier for others if i use speakerphone
09:23:28 rrsagent, make minutes
09:23:28 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html Roland
09:24:25 +Gregory_Rosmaita
09:25:20 +??P3
09:25:30 zakim, PP3 is Alessio
09:25:30 sorry, alessio, I do not recognize a party named 'PP3'
09:25:36 zakim, ??PP3 is Alessio
09:25:36 sorry, alessio, I do not recognize a party named '??PP3'
09:25:43 zakim, ??P3 is Alessio
09:25:43 +Alessio; got it
09:26:20 +??P4
09:26:35 zakim, dial steven-617
09:26:35 ok, Steven; the call is being made
09:26:37 +Steven
09:26:38 +ShaneM
09:26:46 alessio, p3!
09:26:58 zakim, who is here?
09:26:58 On the phone I see Roland, Steven, Tina, Gregory_Rosmaita, Alessio, ??P4, ShaneM
09:27:00 On IRC I see alessio, Lachy, Steven, yamx, Roland, oedipus, RRSAgent, Zakim, Tina, deane, ShaneM
09:27:06 zakim, ??P4 is Yam
09:27:06 +Yam; got it
09:27:11 Thanks.
09:27:15 rrsgent, make minutes
09:27:21 rrsagent, make minutes
09:27:21 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
09:28:07 zakim, who is here?
09:28:07 On the phone I see Roland, Steven, Tina, Gregory_Rosmaita, Alessio, Yam, ShaneM
09:28:07 FYI: open accessibility (open a11y) uses XHTML 1.0 strict but is migrating to 1.1+RDFa for specifications and documents
09:28:09 On IRC I see alessio, Lachy, Steven, yamx, Roland, oedipus, RRSAgent, Zakim, Tina, deane, ShaneM
09:28:16 Present: Roland, Steven, Tina, Gregory_Rosmaita, Alessio, Yam, ShaneM
09:31:07 ACTION: Steven to start an implementation page on the wiki
09:33:13 FY: http://xml.house.gov/drafting.htm
09:33:24 s/FY:/FYI:
09:33:37 gregory, as IWA/HWG we are present in that WG with three people :)
09:33:46 hooray!
09:33:47 Topic: XHTML2
09:34:35 Venice: http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-minutes.html#item06
09:35:00 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml2-20071024/
09:36:39 GJR would like to make some specific suggestions (e.g. use global @src on Q for URI/IDREF and redefine @cite to contain human parseable info of the type of info encased in CITE element )
09:36:58 Roland: We still need to do some work
09:37:09 Steven: RDFa has been the main gating factor
09:37:12 q+ to ask what is most efficacious feedback stream for XHTML2?
09:37:30 ... since we reference RDFa normatively, we have to follow it one step behind
09:37:32 scribe: oedipus
09:37:42 SM: haven't put out PWD in 2 years
09:38:05 SM: everytime propose new PWD, get objections -- need to get a snapshot up
09:38:14 SM: updates from 2 years ago need to be effected
09:38:26 RESOLVED: Issue a new XHTML2 Public Working Draft
09:38:28 no objection from me.
09:38:33 +1
09:38:44 RM: next steps after publication?
09:38:49 +1
09:38:56 +1
09:38:59 +1
09:39:01 RM: do we want XHTML2 to be all-encompasing or refer to modules
09:39:15 SP: refer to modules - actually, depends on what you mean
09:39:41 Yes, modules
09:39:50 + refer to XForms 1.1
09:39:52 RM: XML Events on spec track, Access on spec track, etc. -- don't want to have to go through last call again - XHTML2 should incorporate modules externally defined
09:39:57 RDFa
09:40:02 SP: include RDFa and XForms 1.1
09:40:15 + access + role
09:41:04 + XML Events
09:42:20 SM: had rule that XHTML author should be able to use XHTML2 spec to get enough info to write documents; should be able to find content model and syntax in XHTML2 - misguided - people write books to do that - can point to other specs to help keep in sync
09:42:44 I can live with that if there are good enough links to definitions of elements and attributes elsewhere
09:42:45 RM: Events, Handlers and Script modules (new XML Events in 3 Modules)
09:43:04 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml2-20071024/xhtml2-doctype.html#s_doctype
09:43:08 SM: if want to change philosophy of what ought to be in spec, should do consciously
09:43:44 SM: need to update section cited above and remove some other chapters - should be sufficient
09:44:03 RM: minimal work to publish new PWD that refers to latest state of things been driving forward
09:44:33 ACTION: ShaneM - incorporate Access, Role, XML Events (in 3 modules: Events, Handlers, Script), and RDFa modules through external reference to XHTML2?
09:44:39 rrsagent, make minutes
09:44:39 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
09:44:43 q+
09:44:49 RM: how long will that take, shane?
09:44:59 SM: can have by monday
09:45:07 RM: new PWD by end of june
09:45:10 SM: perfect
09:45:12 ack me
09:45:12 oedipus, you wanted to ask what is most efficacious feedback stream for XHTML2?
09:46:04 q+
09:46:20 SP: send to WG as email with suggestions and examples
09:46:51 SP: one implementation strategy is to try and create set of javascripts that implement XHTML2 - XHTML2 with script to work in existing browsers
09:47:35 SP: half of that is on the way with IBM's ubiquity -- XForms, but the heart of it - a lot can be done with CSS in XHTML2 that authors are familiar with, remaining hard bits are HREF and SRC everywhere
09:47:58 SP: good place to start working is to create bit of script or script library that supports HREF and SRC everywhere
09:48:07 Alessio: i will try to write one
09:48:27 Alessio: Access module support in XBL - can transfer solution
09:48:40 SM: XML Events 2 another challanging bit
09:48:59 SP: XForms does XML Events, so ubiquity will move to XML Events 2
09:49:05 SM: uses Events, not Handlers
09:49:12 SP: Handlers derived from XForms
09:49:22 SP: conditionals form XForms 1.1
09:49:34 s/form/from
09:49:47 SP: should be referencing XForms 1.1 rather than XForms 1.0
09:50:00 SP: XML Events is difficult, but ubiquity will help us
09:50:14 RM: implementation of SCRIPT tag through javascript?
09:50:35 SP: danger is UA gets to SCRIPT tag before XHTML2 script does
09:50:45 Alessio: interesting point
09:50:55 SP: may be ok - proof will be in the proverbial pudding
09:51:12 SM: things in scripts don't do inline functions - should declare, not execute
09:51:38 RM: move it all into a single namespace?
09:51:45 RM: make author's life as easy as can make it
09:51:58 SM: what would that encompass "all"?
09:52:15 RM: XML Events, XML Handlers - take as chameleon to XML namespace
09:52:35 s/to XML/to XHTML
09:52:35 http://groups.google.com/group/ubiquity-xforms
09:53:02 SP: let's do it and see what reaction is
09:53:15 RM: ARIA Module - should be in here
09:53:40 SM: absolutely think should include ARIA (as aria- ) in XHTML2
09:53:43 Alessio: agree
09:53:45 GJR: agree
09:54:48 http://code.google.com/p/ubiquity-xforms/
09:55:44