16:50:03 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #tagmem
16:50:03 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-tagmem-irc
16:50:11 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #tagmem
16:50:18 <Stuart> zakim, this will be tag
16:50:18 <Zakim> ok, Stuart; I see TAG_Weekly()1:00PM scheduled to start in 10 minutes
16:50:38 <Stuart> meeting: TAG Weekly
16:50:48 <Stuart> chair: Stuart Williams
16:51:18 <Stuart> scribe: Dan Connolly
16:51:28 <Stuart> Regrets: Noah Mendelsohn
16:51:36 <Stuart> agenda?
16:51:45 <Stuart> agenda+ Convene
16:52:01 <Stuart> agenda+ News and New Items
16:52:25 <Stuart> agenda+ scalabilityOfURIAccess-58
16:52:38 <Stuart> agenda+ XMLVersioning-41
16:52:56 <Stuart> agenda+ tagSoupIntegration-54
16:53:21 <Stuart> agenda+ Issues and Action Item review.
16:53:39 <Stuart> agenda+ Any other business.
16:58:00 <Zakim> TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has now started
16:58:06 <Zakim> +Raman
16:58:58 <amalhotr> amalhotr has joined #tagmem
16:59:02 <Zakim> +??P5
16:59:34 <jar> zakim, who is on the call?
16:59:34 <Zakim> On the phone I see Raman, ??P5
16:59:34 <Ashok> Ashok has joined #tagmem
17:00:04 <jar> zakim, ??P5 is jar
17:00:04 <Zakim> +jar; got it
17:00:49 <jar> let me try the other phone
17:00:56 <Zakim> -jar
17:00:59 <Zakim> +??P1
17:01:05 <Stuart> zakim, ??p1 is me
17:01:05 <Zakim> +Stuart; got it
17:01:28 <Zakim> +jar
17:01:44 <ht> zakim, please call ht-781
17:01:44 <Zakim> ok, ht; the call is being made
17:01:46 <Zakim> +Ht
17:01:57 <Zakim> +Ashok_Malhotra
17:02:32 <Stuart> zakim, who is on the phone?
17:02:32 <Zakim> On the phone I see Raman, Stuart, jar, Ht, Ashok_Malhotra
17:02:38 <Zakim> +Norm
17:02:44 <Zakim> +DanC.a
17:03:54 <DanC> Zakim, take up item 1
17:03:54 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Convene" taken up [from Stuart]
17:04:05 <DanC> regrets: Noah
17:04:50 <DanC> agenda review... TVR asks that we make sure to give tagSoup considerable time
17:05:58 <DanC> -> http://www.w3.org/2008/06/12-tagmem-minutes 12 Jun minutes
17:06:06 <DanC> RESOLVED: to approve 12 Jun minutes
17:06:14 <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
17:06:14 <Zakim> On the phone I see Raman, Stuart, jar, Ht, Ashok_Malhotra, Norm, DanC.a
17:06:51 <DanC> SKW: propose to meet 26 Jun as usual... nominate DO to scribe, but can't confirm, so NDW?
17:07:06 <Zakim> +TimBL
17:07:06 <DanC> RESOLVED: to meet again 26 Jun, NDW to scribe
17:07:19 <DanC> AM: meeting [some date]?
17:07:34 <DanC> SKW: haven't looked forward that far; might meet with XRI TC then
17:07:40 <DanC> s/[some date]/3 July/
17:07:48 <DanC> Zakim, next item
17:07:48 <Zakim> agendum 2. "News and New Items" taken up [from Stuart]
17:07:57 <DanC> q+ to note public suffix list
17:08:18 <timbl> timbl has joined #tagmem
17:08:27 <DanC> SKW: I note www-tag discussion of widget: URI scheme
17:09:27 <DanC> NDW: I'm interested in a suggestion from LMM about addressing into zips/packages
17:09:28 <Stuart> From: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008Jun/0090 
17:09:31 <timbl> timbl has joined #tagmem
17:09:37 <Stuart> Regardless, we need the TAG's support resolving this
17:09:37 <Stuart> issue sooner than later.
17:11:38 <DanC> [missed some...]
17:11:58 <DanC> some discussion of itunes:
17:12:13 <DanC> and ado:
17:12:15 <timbl> daap: ?
17:12:54 <DanC> TVR: one end-to-end architecture is: (1) start with HTTP, (2) get a media type, (3) get a namespace. But due to software bugs, sometimes a URI scheme is easier to deploy
17:13:25 <timbl> I am interested in us getting involved
17:13:41 <timbl> :)
17:13:44 <DanC> (is that WG chartered to do a new URI scheme?)
17:13:54 <DanC> several show interest in getting involved
17:14:18 <DanC> SKW: ok, I'll let them know we're interested to get involved
17:14:39 <DanC> ACTION: stuart respond to Marcus re widget: URI scheme
17:14:39 <trackbot> Created ACTION-162 - Respond to Marcus re widget: URI scheme [on Stuart Williams - due 2008-06-26].
17:14:59 <Stuart> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008Jun/0126.html
17:15:03 <DanC> Zakim, next item
17:15:03 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, DanC
17:15:13 <DanC> q?
17:15:20 <DanC> q-
17:15:34 <DanC> agenda + public suffix list
17:15:39 <DanC> Zakim, next item
17:15:39 <Zakim> agendum 3. "scalabilityOfURIAccess-58" taken up [from Stuart]
17:16:15 <DanC> TimBL: question is, if the W3C systems team says "for the good running of the web, please install these catalogs"... is that good?
17:16:29 <Norm> q+ to say that supporting XML Catalogs ought to be sufficient
17:16:30 <DanC> ... I'm concerned that some catalog systems use public identifiers rather than URIs
17:16:47 <timbl> q?
17:16:48 <DanC> q+
17:16:52 <DanC> ack Norm 
17:16:52 <Zakim> Norm, you wanted to say that supporting XML Catalogs ought to be sufficient
17:17:19 <DanC> NDW: XML catalogs seems sufficient; SGML catalogs would be overkill...
17:17:40 <DanC> ... and while XML catalogs allow public identifiers, it seems reasonable to stick to URIs
17:17:42 <ht> q+ to ask what the point I'm missing is
17:17:59 <raman> as google's AC  rep, I'd like the W3C to do something here because we and many large companies get periodically locked out of the W3C site because some piece of test code inadvertantly hammers the W3C site in the process of implementing a spec
17:18:08 <DanC> ack danc
17:18:11 <Stuart> ack DanC
17:18:14 <Norm> q+ to suggest that Ted should build a sample catalog as he might distribute and to volunteer to review it.
17:18:21 <timbl> q+ to express concern about the use of ur: all over the spec
17:18:44 <Stuart> ack ht
17:18:44 <Zakim> ht, you wanted to ask what the point I'm missing is
17:18:44 <timbl> The namespace name defined by this Standard is "urn:oasis:names:tc:entity:xmlns:xml:catalog".
17:19:41 <DanC> DanC: in the past, the cache key for catalogs wasn't a URI; but catalogs now have URI support; any cache mechanism that uses URIs as the cache key is OK by me
17:19:58 <DanC> ht: what am I missing? what good is a catalog without...
17:20:13 <Stuart> ack norm
17:20:13 <Zakim> Norm, you wanted to suggest that Ted should build a sample catalog as he might distribute and to volunteer to review it.
17:20:31 <timbl> I think he should build THE calalog
17:20:32 <DanC> DanC: the catalog comes along with the cache hit data
17:20:51 <DanC> ACTION: norm to review a catalog, should norm provide it
17:20:51 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - norm
17:20:55 <DanC> q?
17:20:58 <DanC> ack timbl
17:20:58 <Zakim> timbl, you wanted to express concern about the use of ur: all over the spec
17:21:00 <Stuart> ack timbl
17:21:25 <timbl> <catalog xmlns="urn:oasis:names:tc:entity:xmlns:xml:catalog"
17:22:03 <DanC> NDW: yes, the catalog spec pre-dates my change in opinion from urns to http URIs for xml namespaces
17:22:06 <Norm> ACTION: Norman to coordinate with Ted to build a sample catalog
17:22:06 <trackbot> Created ACTION-163 - Coordinate with Ted to build a sample catalog [on Norman Walsh - due 2008-06-26].
17:22:41 <DanC> HT: bummer, that it starts urn: but the software we're interested to exploit knows that namespace name
17:22:48 <Norm> Norm changed his mind, http://norman.walsh.name/2004/03/03/266NorthPleasant
17:23:11 <timbl> Maybe we should serve http://legacy.w3.org/urn/oasis:names:tc:entity:xmlns:xml:catalog
17:23:12 <DanC> Zakim, take up item 5
17:23:12 <Zakim> agendum 5. "tagSoupIntegration-54" taken up [from Stuart]
17:23:47 <DanC> SKW invites TVR to summarize last week's discussion http://www.w3.org/2008/06/12-tagmem-minutes#item06
17:25:00 <Stuart> agenda+ developing dialog with the XRI TC (if time permits - otherwise take to email)
17:25:35 <DanC> TVR: a provocative question, following ht's attempt to get namespaces into HTML design: does it make sense to work toward convergence of XML and HTML? [tvr quickly gives lots of context at a rate the scribe fails to match]
17:27:35 <DanC> TVR: [explains 2 extreme positions and some middle ground; scribe would like help recovering them]
17:28:24 <DanC> TimBL: thanks for the summary... reminds me of discussion about RDFa; the spec sticks to XHTML, but a lot of the practical deployment looks like it's in HTML. [?]
17:28:45 <DanC> ... likewise, I'd expect that if good tags are added to HTML, they'd get adopted in XHTML
17:29:22 <DanC> ... there's an issue in that in HTML, there just aren't any namespaces. But you can get around that by saying the root HTML namespace is implicit, based on the media type
17:29:22 <Stuart> action-145?
17:29:22 <trackbot> ACTION-145 -- Tim Berners-Lee to add public prose around his slides at the AC meeting to make the case for extensiblity and flexible XML -- due 2008-06-26 -- OPEN
17:29:22 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/145
17:29:44 <Stuart> q?
17:30:05 <DanC> TimBL: some people are going to need some things from HTML and some things from XML, and keeping those separate isn't going to help
17:30:21 <DanC> TimBL: pls continue that action; I do hope to get to it
17:31:51 <DanC> TVR: I agree RDFa is an example of something with bottom-up motivation that works pretty well, techinically; but attempts to integrated it into HTML 5 don't seem to be received well
17:32:23 <DanC> regrets+ DO
17:32:55 <Stuart> q?
17:33:07 <timbl> q+
17:33:10 <DanC> TVR: [more interesting stuff that consumes too much of the scribe's brain for him to summarize in real time]
17:33:13 <Stuart> ack tim
17:33:50 <Norm> q+ to waffle in the same general space as TVR
17:34:52 <Stuart> Raman pose two questions to encourage convergence: what changes to namespaces could be accomodated; likewise for XML. In each case also consider who benefits from what changes (IIRC)
17:35:10 <Stuart> q?
17:35:30 <DanC> q+
17:35:43 <Stuart> ack Norm
17:35:43 <Zakim> Norm, you wanted to waffle in the same general space as TVR
17:36:07 <DanC> [scribe missed some from TVR and TimBL]
17:37:01 <DanC> NDW: I've been thinking/writing about the situation with HTML and XML; I can see technical rationale for convergence, but I don't see that the respective communities have sufficient motivation
17:38:06 <DanC> TVR: I think this fork in the web is a really bad thing... one possibility is that the two languages come together such that when you're writing, you don't think of two languages but just one
17:38:20 <DanC> ... but there's also... let's call it the cohabitation question
17:38:35 <Stuart> q+ to mutter about open/closed language syntax and extensibility v interoperability
17:39:02 <DanC> ... since we haven't asked the co-habitation question, things from one language tend to pollute the other, usually to the detriment of the XML side
17:39:44 <ht> The cohabitation question is precisely the question we started this issue with: "Is the indefinite persistence of 'tag soup' HTML consistent with a sound architecture for the Web?"
17:39:45 <Stuart> q?
17:39:48 <Stuart> ack DanC
17:39:57 <DanC> ... so I think it will help to think about how these two things can sit side by side on the web
17:40:00 <timbl> q+ to talk about the white space xml mparser flag having 3 values
17:41:21 <DanC> TVR: much/most Atom/RSS feeds aren't valid
17:41:23 <Stuart> q?
17:43:28 <ht> I just tried two random atom feeds, the first was well-formed, the second had an un-escaped &  . . .  :-(
17:43:36 <Norm> :-(
17:44:17 <raman> q+ to point out xhtml + css is a hands-down winner with authors
17:44:33 <raman> q+ to add html tag soup is pushed by the browsers who have the implementations
17:44:42 <ht> +10 to DC about innovators: I just spent the morning with a startup who just got 2nd round funding who have a very cool, with customers, xhtml+css+xml schema web site management tool
17:45:52 <Stuart> ack Stuart
17:45:52 <Zakim> Stuart, you wanted to mutter about open/closed language syntax and extensibility v interoperability
17:46:24 <ht> We'll trade you namespaces lite for document.write :-)
17:46:56 <Stuart> q?
17:47:04 <raman> q+ raman: to add that document.write is the actual dividing issue -- not surface syntax
17:47:39 <timbl> I understand that the XML whitespace parsing rules are an external  parameter given to the parser., an not available anywhere in a follow your nose way.  This seems to be a big XML bug. It seems o me to be that the HTML pasring rules are in a similar place.
17:47:58 <Stuart> ack timbl
17:47:58 <Zakim> timbl, you wanted to talk about the white space xml mparser flag having 3 values
17:51:00 <DanC> discussion of design constraints on RDFa which may be due to problems in other specs or bugs in software...
17:52:52 <DanC> ... in particular, whether whitespace is preserved in XSLT, and getting at namespace info in XSLT
17:55:23 <Stuart> ack raman
17:55:23 <Zakim> raman, you wanted to point out xhtml + css is a hands-down winner with authors and to add html tag soup is pushed by the browsers who have the implementations
17:56:21 <Stuart> ack raman:
17:56:21 <Zakim> raman:, you wanted to add that document.write is the actual dividing issue -- not surface syntax
17:56:56 <DanC> TVR: also, much of the tag soup started as clean XML in the author's hand, but then downstream tools emit tag soup
17:57:51 <DanC> TVR: various syntax fix-ups are manageable, but document.write is fundamentally different.
17:58:17 <Stuart> q?
17:58:25 <DanC> ... document.write tangles things up... that's why HTML 5 is so contorted
17:59:38 <Norm> It seems to me that AJAX replaces the need for it, but...
18:00:19 <DanC> NDW: document.write is too far deployed to say "don't do that"?
18:00:26 <DanC> HT: it's in google ads and such
18:00:48 <DanC> DanC: TV gave me some hope that's not permanent, that it's manageable over years
18:00:50 <Stuart> q?
18:01:47 <DanC> TVR: yes... much of the stuff that was necessary for interop in the 2001-2003 timeframe isn't necessary in current browsers, but there's a feedback loop that is hard to break
18:03:43 <DanC> ACTION-7?
18:03:43 <trackbot> ACTION-7 -- Dan Connolly to work with Olivier and Tim to draft a position regarding extensibility of HTML and the role of the validator for consideration by the TAG -- due 2008-05-15 -- PENDINGREVIEW
18:03:43 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/7
18:09:17 <Stuart> Does anyone have an architecture for an extensible validator?
18:10:16 <DanC> yes, they announced a "unicorn" design
18:14:40 <Stuart> agenda ?
18:17:35 <DanC> action-7?
18:17:35 <trackbot> ACTION-7 -- Tim Berners-Lee to draft a position regarding extensibility of HTML and the role of the validator for consideration by the TAG -- due 2008-06-26 -- PENDINGREVIEW
18:17:35 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/7
18:17:53 <DanC> action-7?
18:17:53 <trackbot> ACTION-7 -- Tim Berners-Lee to draft a position regarding extensibility of HTML and the role of the validator for consideration by the TAG -- due 2008-07-31 -- OPEN
18:17:53 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/7
18:18:43 <DanC> Zakim, take up item 4
18:18:43 <Zakim> agendum 4. "XMLVersioning-41" taken up [from Stuart]
18:19:14 <DanC> Alternative language versioning formalism Jonathan Rees (Tuesday, 27 May)
18:19:19 <DanC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008May/0155.html
18:21:10 <DanC> Def. L is extensible if there is an L' that extends it.
18:23:23 <Zakim> -Ht
18:23:34 <DanC> action-149?
18:23:34 <trackbot> ACTION-149 -- Henry S. Thompson to henry to help Jonathan with ACTION-148 and ACTION-158 -- due 2008-05-26 -- OPEN
18:23:34 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/149
18:23:39 <DanC> action-158?
18:23:39 <trackbot> ACTION-158 -- Jonathan Rees to write up thoughts on versioning and share with the group -- due 2008-05-28 -- PENDINGREVIEW
18:23:39 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/158
18:24:03 <DanC> close action-158
18:24:03 <trackbot> ACTION-158 Write up thoughts on versioning and share with the group closed
18:24:30 <DanC> close action-149
18:24:30 <trackbot> ACTION-149 Henry to help Jonathan with ACTION-148 and ACTION-158 closed
18:24:35 <DanC> action-148?
18:24:35 <trackbot> ACTION-148 -- Jonathan Rees to see if he can develop a formal basis for the definition of extensibility, possibly includiing definitions of forwards/backwards compatibility -- due 2008-05-26 -- CLOSED
18:24:35 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/148
18:24:56 <DanC> action-158?
18:24:56 <trackbot> ACTION-158 -- Jonathan Rees to write up thoughts on versioning and share with the group -- due 2008-05-28 -- CLOSED
18:24:56 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/158
18:26:18 <DanC> action-158?
18:26:18 <trackbot> ACTION-158 -- Jonathan Rees to write up thoughts on versioning and share with the group -- due 2008-05-28 -- PENDINGREVIEW
18:26:18 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/158
18:26:27 <DanC> SKW: I hope to pick this up again when DO is around
18:26:40 <DanC> Zakim, close item 6
18:26:40 <Zakim> agendum 6, Issues and Action Item review., closed
18:26:40 <Stuart> agenda ?
18:26:41 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:26:43 <DanC> agenda?
18:26:43 <Zakim> 3. scalabilityOfURIAccess-58 [from Stuart]
18:27:12 <DanC> Zakim, take up item 8
18:27:12 <Zakim> agendum 8. "public suffix list" taken up [from DanC]
18:27:25 <DanC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008Jun/0095.html
18:27:29 <DanC> public suffix list: when opacity meets security [metaDataInURI-31 siteData-36]
18:30:53 <Stuart> how would you do a follow your nose from a URI scheme name?
18:31:45 <Stuart> it seems to be there is at least human redirection through the IANA scheme registry to specifications....
18:31:53 <DanC> the list: http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/netwerk/dns/src/effective_tld_names.dat?raw=1
18:31:58 <Stuart> and those specifications refer to other specification...
18:32:28 <Zakim> -Ashok_Malhotra
18:32:30 <Zakim> -Norm
18:32:35 <Zakim> -jar
18:32:40 <Norm> Norm has joined #tagmem
18:34:40 <Zakim> -TimBL
18:34:44 <Zakim> -Stuart
18:34:56 <Zakim> -Raman
18:35:14 <Stuart> Stuart has left #tagmem
18:39:57 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, DanC.a, in TAG_Weekly()1:00PM
18:40:00 <Zakim> TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has ended
18:40:01 <Zakim> Attendees were Raman, jar, Stuart, Ht, Ashok_Malhotra, Norm, DanC.a, TimBL
18:43:27 <Norm> Norm has joined #tagmem