10:30:45 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg
10:30:45 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-svg-irc
10:30:46 <ed> ed has joined #svg
10:30:47 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
10:30:47 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #svg
10:30:49 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
10:30:49 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG()6:30AM scheduled to start now
10:30:50 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
10:30:50 <trackbot> Date: 19 June 2008
10:31:16 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()6:30AM has now started
10:31:23 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
10:31:34 <Zakim> +??P7
10:31:44 <Zakim> +??P8
10:31:46 <anthony> Zakim, ??P7 is me
10:31:46 <Zakim> +anthony; got it
10:31:51 <ed> Zakim, ??P8 is me
10:31:51 <Zakim> +ed; got it
10:32:26 <Zakim> +??P9
10:32:30 <heycam> Zakim, ??P9 is me
10:32:30 <Zakim> +heycam; got it
10:33:08 <ed> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0144.html
10:33:48 <heycam> Scribe: Cameron
10:33:52 <heycam> ScribeNick: heycam
10:34:43 <heycam> Topic: SVG IG
10:35:11 <heycam> DS: i met with jeff schiller, who is the co-chair of the SVG IG, along with me
10:35:48 <heycam> DS: he and i have been working on the wiki and we plan on having a meeting next thursday
10:36:02 <shepazu> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/IG/wiki/Meeting_2008-06
10:36:34 <heycam> DS: we want to basically have a very focussed set of first meetings
10:37:14 <heycam> DS: one thing that the wiki page doesn't mention is the idea of the "japanese chapter"
10:37:26 <heycam> DS: i'll dedicate a page on the wiki to that
10:38:46 <heycam> ED: so the acid test stuff, that's possible future activities, why?
10:38:50 <heycam> DS: this is svg acid tests
10:39:11 <heycam> DS: why future and not current?  because a good acid test will take a while to build.  and we don't want to intimidate people.
10:39:25 <heycam> DS: we want to set a relatively simple goal and meet it and then move on to the next relatively simple goal
10:39:38 <heycam> DS: and build up into more complex goals
10:39:46 <heycam> DS: fwiw jeff's already started on it
10:40:11 <heycam> DS: we have a number of members
10:40:23 <shepazu> http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=42368
10:40:25 <heycam> DS: we're hoping to get more
10:40:33 <heycam> DS: specifically, we're hoping to get more designers
10:41:24 <heycam> Topic: Public CVS transition
10:41:27 <heycam> ED: any progress?
10:41:39 <heycam> DS: i've made some limited progress
10:41:51 <shepazu> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/
10:42:21 <heycam> DS: haven't started moving the files over yet
10:42:44 <heycam> DS: i was hoping that people owning particular modules would move them over
10:43:48 <heycam> DS: I guess i can just move 1.2 tiny over directly
10:44:40 <heycam> CM: the tiny build scripts have dependencies outside the 1.2T directory
10:44:44 <heycam> DS: ultimately we'll have to fix the scripts
10:46:52 <anthony> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2002
10:46:54 <heycam> DS: tony, you have a related action to look at scripts and consolidate them?
10:46:58 <heycam> AG: that's the action
10:47:28 <heycam> AG: how soon?
10:47:32 <heycam> DS: next three weeks?
10:47:57 <heycam> AG: i'd probably just copy the directory over to the new CVS, without checking it in, then get the script running locally first, then commit it
10:48:01 <heycam> AG: don't think it'd be too difficult
10:49:20 <heycam> DS: since we're working in public i'm eager to get everything in public
10:49:32 <heycam> DS: especially because people will be wanting to see why we're making changes in the test suite
10:49:51 <heycam> ED: so could we expect it to be moved over by some time next week?
10:50:00 <heycam> s/it/1.2T/
10:50:33 <heycam> DS: test suite?
10:50:38 <heycam> ED: no but that would be good to move over too
10:51:40 <heycam> DS: to start off with i could move the publish/ directory over
10:51:50 <heycam> AG: the script doesn't look like it does anything too fancy
10:52:25 <heycam> AG: it doesn't do too much "../../"ing
10:52:28 <heycam> CM: the idl one might though
10:54:51 <heycam> DS: somebody said there were some tricky bits.  each individual spec had some specialised "bits".
10:55:00 <heycam> ED: that's what anthony's action is yes, finding the common parts?
10:55:02 <heycam> DS: right
10:57:51 <heycam> ED: to clarify, who is moving the spec over?
10:58:07 <heycam> DS: i will take the action to move over the publish/ directory
10:58:59 <heycam> DS: should we have a 'spec/' directory in 1.2T/ ? 
10:59:04 <heycam> AG: we have master/ and publish/
10:59:13 <heycam> AG: don't check anything into the tools/ directory yet
11:00:11 <heycam> DS: i'll add a master/ and publish/ directory to 1.2T/
11:00:35 <heycam> DS: i'll move over some of the published stuff, like the in-cvs published 1.2T spec
11:01:03 <heycam> ACTION: Doug to create a publish/ and master/ directory in CVS, and to copy over the current contents of the 1.2T publish/ directory to dev.w3.org
11:01:04 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2069 - Create a publish/ and master/ directory in CVS, and to copy over the current contents of the 1.2T publish/ directory to dev.w3.org [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-06-26].
11:02:56 <heycam> DS: and transition of the test suite?
11:03:01 <heycam> DS: where should that go?
11:03:06 <heycam> DS: under 1.2T/, yes?
11:03:15 <heycam> DS: 1.2T/test/
11:03:41 <heycam> CM: keeping the same structure in the test suite directory?  (like svg, svggen, etc.)
11:03:43 <heycam> AG: yeah
11:05:29 <heycam> (we decide to hold off on migrating the test suite for now)
11:05:33 <heycam> Topic: Testsuite publication
11:06:03 <heycam> DS: i will do it today
11:06:17 <heycam> ED: the link from the wiki page is incorrect; it links to the old one
11:06:30 <heycam> DS: andrew put that link in there and asked me to correct it when it's published, which i'll do
11:06:42 <heycam> AG: is it easy enough to publish?
11:07:01 <heycam> DS: chrisl says if you upload a lot at once, it gets confused
11:07:22 <heycam> Topic: 1.1 errata
11:07:57 <heycam> ED: i edited errata.xml today, so i'd like to discuss my addition
11:08:11 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0143.html
11:08:39 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/errata/errata.xml#svgtextcontentelement_clarifications
11:09:08 <heycam> ED: we discussed last time why an exception is thrown for negative method parameters, even though the type is unsigned
11:09:28 <heycam> ED: so i'm wondering if this is something we should fix at all, because there might be differences in different languages
11:09:32 <heycam> ED: maybe even which type of exception is thrown
11:09:50 <heycam> ED: so i'm suggesting to keep what we have
11:10:00 <heycam> ED: i only made some minor corrections in the errata item
11:10:31 <heycam> CM: can you summarise?
11:10:56 <heycam> ED: there are exceptions raised for negative first parameter of getSubStringLength(), or if the number of characters you try to measure is greater than the characters in the node
11:11:13 <heycam> ED: this will be changed so that if you pass length longer than the string that it will be clipped to the number of characters that are there
11:11:20 <heycam> ED: this will make it similar to selectSubString()
11:11:26 <ed> If nchars specifies more characters than are available, then the substring will consist of all characters starting with charnum until the end of the list of characters.
11:11:51 <heycam> ED: so it won't raise an exception any more if you give a very large value for nchars
11:12:11 <heycam> ED: still raising exception if you use negative values for the first, and a new exception if you use a negative value for the second
11:12:50 <heycam> ED: next change is that it wasn't clear when you have characters that can't be separated (surrogate pairs, glyphs that map to multiple characters)
11:12:58 <heycam> ED: now it says the range is expanded to include those
11:13:06 <heycam> s/those/the whole glyph/
11:13:29 <heycam> ED: in selectSubString(), there is the change to raise an exception if the second parameter is negative
11:14:02 <heycam> ED: and in getSubStringLength(), it raises an exception if you pass in a starting character number that is larger than the number of characters in the node
11:14:56 <heycam> ED: I have a test case too, linked from the errata item
11:14:56 <MikeSmith> MikeSmith has joined #svg
11:15:12 <heycam> ED: it tests everything in getSubStringLength(), and i'm going to add a test for selectSubString() too
11:15:20 <heycam> ED: so i propose we move this errata item to proposed
11:16:47 <heycam> CM: UTF-16 codepoints vs characters?
11:17:12 <heycam> ED: there's one errata for getNumberOfChars() that uses the codepoint language
11:23:34 <heycam> ISSUE: All of the SVGTextContentElement methods should be referring to UTF-16 codepoints instead of characters, in SVG 1.1
11:23:35 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-2008 - All of the SVGTextContentElement methods should be referring to UTF-16 codepoints instead of characters, in SVG 1.1 ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2008/edit .
11:25:15 <heycam> ACTION: Cameron to fix ISSUE-2008 by adding an errata item that adds a paragraph at the start of SVGTextContentElement about it, and change the getNumberOfChars() one back to using the word "characters"
11:25:15 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2070 - Fix ISSUE-2008 by adding an errata item that adds a paragraph at the start of SVGTextContentElement about it, and change the getNumberOfChars() one back to using the word \"characters\" [on Cameron McCormack - due 2008-06-26].
11:25:50 <heycam> RESOLUTION: we move ed's SVGTextContentElement errata item to propose
11:26:17 <heycam> trackbot, close ACTION-2010
11:26:17 <trackbot> ACTION-2010 Clarify/errata for text DOM methods in SVG 1.1, specify that unrendered characters don't contribute to the computation; remove exceptions of getSubStringLength; clarify about unseparable characters closed
11:26:30 <heycam> trackbot, you rule
11:26:30 <trackbot> Sorry, heycam, I don't understand 'trackbot, you rule'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
11:27:12 <heycam> ED: publishing the errata?
11:27:34 <heycam> CM: how about after i do my one
11:28:14 <heycam> Topic: SVG in HTML
11:28:37 <heycam> DS: some initial discussion on #html-wg, a few substantive comments
11:28:55 <heycam> DS: there are two separate proposals, which wasn't so clear
11:29:08 <heycam> DS: there are some jargon terms in there that aren't defined clearly enough
11:29:26 <heycam> DS: some confusion about where something in handled (in the parser, tokenizer, whereever)
11:29:44 <heycam> DS: so we'll have to work on it
11:29:48 <heycam> AG: it is a draft, after all
11:30:53 <heycam> DS: there were some comments saying that tony's proposal wouldn't achieve some of the things we were hoping for (e.g. attribute quoting, well-formedness)
11:31:07 <heycam> DS: and a comment about where it breaks out from the content
11:31:12 <heycam> DS: so those are the things we'll have to tighten up
11:31:36 <heycam> ED: so that's not in CVS yet?
11:31:51 <heycam> DS: maybe i'll make a separate directory for proposals
11:33:13 <heycam> ED: so we should go through the proposal offline
11:33:57 <heycam> Topic: Script executing under progressive rendering
11:34:17 <heycam> http://www.w3.org/mid/20080616054241.GB29149@arc.mcc.id.au
11:34:35 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0133.html
11:42:23 <heycam> CM: blah blah <script> order of execution...
11:42:38 <heycam> (we decide that the important point is that <script> elements execute in document order)
11:42:55 <heycam> (modulo insertion of new <script> elements into the document)
11:43:11 <heycam> CM: so i'll propose some text for that as part of my ACTION-2063
11:43:34 <heycam> Topic: Behaviour of SVGLengthList.replaceItem()
11:43:35 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0141.html
11:45:08 <heycam> CM: tested some implementations, none are the same
11:45:15 <heycam> ED: maybe we can ask the svg community
11:46:41 <heycam> I think the index is probably the index of the item to be replaced before
11:46:41 <heycam> the new item has been removed from its current list.
11:46:41 <heycam>  -- Jeff Schiller
11:48:36 <heycam> ED: i'm happy either way, but would like to choose the more intuitive one
11:48:38 <heycam> CM: sounds good to me
11:49:02 <heycam> AG: somebody should reply to jeff saying we decided that way
11:50:03 <heycam> ACTION: Erik to errata replaceItem() to make the index be before the removal of the argument item in the list, and to reply to jeff on www-svg
11:50:03 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2071 - Errata replaceItem() to make the index be before the removal of the argument item in the list, and to reply to jeff on www-svg [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-06-26].
11:51:00 <heycam> Topic: Issues and actions
11:51:02 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/products/2
11:51:50 <heycam> ED: two open issues, no actions assigned
11:52:49 <heycam> trackbot, ISSUE-2003?
11:52:49 <trackbot> Sorry, heycam, I don't understand 'trackbot, ISSUE-2003?'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
11:53:12 <heycam> ISSUE-2003?
11:53:12 <trackbot> ISSUE-2003 -- Resolving IRIs for Resource Documents -- RAISED
11:53:12 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2003
11:56:16 <heycam> ACTION: Erik to check what Opera does with ISSUE-2003
11:56:17 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2072 - Check what Opera does with ISSUE-2003 [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-06-26].
11:57:30 <heycam> Topic: ISSUE-2004
11:58:23 <heycam> CM: how about making the udom default to throwing an exception when NaN or Infinity is passed in to a float parameter?
11:58:31 <heycam> CM: and then override that in a method description if we need to
11:59:19 <heycam> CM: maybe not throwing for setFloatTrait()?  because traits we define later might use those values?
11:59:23 <heycam> ED: i think we throw for that method already
11:59:33 <ed> DOMException		TYPE_MISMATCH_ERR: Raised if the requested trait's value cannot be specified as a numeric float (e.g. NaN).
11:59:37 <ed> setFloatTrait
11:59:45 <ed> (that's the CR version of the spec)
12:00:21 <heycam> CM: is Infinity numeric? :)
12:01:44 <heycam> ACTION: Cameron to investigate existing uses of float in the 1.2T IDL for ISSUE-2004, to see which ones should throw and which shouldn't
12:01:44 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2073 - Investigate existing uses of float in the 1.2T IDL for ISSUE-2004, to see which ones should throw and which shouldn't [on Cameron McCormack - due 2008-06-26].
12:03:17 <heycam> (we all agree to be more responsive on www-svg :))
12:03:48 <Zakim> -ed
12:03:49 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
12:03:50 <Zakim> -heycam
12:03:56 <Zakim> -anthony
12:03:57 <heycam> RRSAgent, list participants
12:03:57 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'list participants', heycam.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
12:03:58 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()6:30AM has ended
12:04:00 <Zakim> Attendees were Doug_Schepers, anthony, ed, heycam
12:04:05 <heycam> Zakim, list participants
12:04:12 <Zakim> sorry, heycam, I don't know what conference this is
12:04:21 <heycam> RRSAgent, make minutes
12:04:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-svg-minutes.html heycam