IRC log of owl on 2008-06-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:48:42 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #owl
16:48:42 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/06/18-owl-irc
16:49:07 [pfps]
pfps has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2008.06.18/Agenda
16:49:19 [pfps]
Zakim, this will be owlwg
16:49:19 [Zakim]
ok, pfps; I see SW_OWL()12:00PM scheduled to start 49 minutes ago
16:49:28 [pfps]
ScribeNick: pfps
16:49:39 [pfps]
RRSAgent, make records public
16:51:21 [bcuencagrau]
bcuencagrau has joined #owl
16:54:23 [alanr]
alanr has joined #owl
16:55:07 [Rinke]
Rinke has joined #owl
16:55:24 [baojie]
baojie has joined #owl
16:57:08 [Zakim]
SW_OWL()12:00PM has now started
16:57:16 [Zakim]
+Peter_Patel-Schneider
16:58:29 [uli]
uli has joined #owl
16:59:24 [Zakim]
+??P16
17:00:03 [Zakim]
+MartinD
17:00:07 [uli]
zakim, mute me
17:00:08 [Zakim]
sorry, uli, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
17:00:17 [uli]
zakim, ??P16 is me
17:00:18 [Zakim]
+uli; got it
17:00:19 [uli]
zakim, mute me
17:00:19 [Zakim]
uli should now be muted
17:00:24 [MartinD]
zakim, mute me
17:00:24 [Zakim]
MartinD should now be muted
17:00:25 [Zhe]
Zhe has joined #owl
17:00:31 [Zakim]
+baojie
17:00:52 [msmith]
msmith has joined #owl
17:01:08 [IanH]
IanH has joined #owl
17:01:14 [bmotik]
bmotik has joined #owl
17:01:20 [Zakim]
+Zhe
17:01:21 [Zakim]
+??P20
17:01:28 [bcuencagrau]
Zakim, ??P20 is me
17:01:28 [Zakim]
+bcuencagrau; got it
17:01:36 [Zakim]
+??P21
17:01:41 [bmotik]
Zakim, ??P21 is me
17:01:41 [Zakim]
+bmotik; got it
17:01:52 [Zakim]
+Alan
17:01:55 [Zakim]
+IanH
17:02:14 [Zakim]
+msmith
17:02:24 [pfps]
Topic: Admin
17:02:30 [bcuencagrau]
Zakim, mute me
17:02:30 [Zakim]
bcuencagrau should now be muted
17:02:55 [pfps]
Subtopic: Roll call
17:03:02 [pfps]
Zakim, who is on the call?
17:03:02 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, uli (muted), MartinD (muted), baojie, Zhe, bcuencagrau (muted), bmotik, Alan, IanH (muted), msmith
17:03:15 [pfps]
Zakim, who is here?
17:03:15 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, uli (muted), MartinD (muted), baojie, Zhe, bcuencagrau (muted), bmotik, Alan, IanH (muted), msmith
17:03:17 [Zakim]
On IRC I see bmotik, IanH, msmith, Zhe, uli, baojie, Rinke, alanr, bcuencagrau, RRSAgent, Zakim, MartinD, sandro, pfps, trackbot
17:03:19 [Achille]
Achille has joined #OWL
17:04:34 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
17:04:43 [Achille]
Zakim, IBM is me
17:04:43 [Zakim]
+Achille; got it
17:05:13 [pfps]
Zakim, who is here?
17:05:13 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, uli (muted), MartinD (muted), baojie, Zhe, bcuencagrau (muted), bmotik, Alan, IanH (muted), msmith, Achille
17:05:15 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Achille, bmotik, IanH, msmith, Zhe, uli, baojie, alanr, bcuencagrau, RRSAgent, Zakim, MartinD, sandro, pfps, trackbot
17:05:31 [pfps]
Subtopic: Agenda amendments
17:05:32 [m_schnei]
m_schnei has joined #owl
17:05:47 [pfps]
alanr: move imports from resolve to discuss
17:05:57 [pfps]
alanr: quick update on testing
17:06:16 [pfps]
Subtopic: approve minutes
17:06:31 [pfps]
PROPOSED: Accept Previous Previous Minutes (04 June)
17:07:18 [pfps]
pfps: formatting looks different
17:07:28 [Zakim]
+??P0
17:07:29 [pfps]
alanr: other opinions?
17:07:31 [uli]
zakim, unmute me
17:07:31 [Zakim]
uli should no longer be muted
17:07:35 [m_schnei]
zakim, ??P0 is me
17:07:35 [Zakim]
+m_schnei; got it
17:07:38 [Zakim]
-bmotik
17:07:43 [m_schnei]
zakim, mute me
17:07:43 [Zakim]
m_schnei should now be muted
17:07:48 [uli]
zakim, mute me
17:07:48 [Zakim]
uli should now be muted
17:07:50 [pfps]
uli: 4th are OK, 11th worse
17:07:56 [Zakim]
+??P1
17:08:01 [bmotik]
Zakim, ??P1 is me
17:08:01 [Zakim]
+bmotik; got it
17:08:05 [bmotik]
Zakim, mute me
17:08:05 [Zakim]
bmotik should now be muted
17:08:19 [uli]
no
17:08:21 [pfps]
alanr: review minutes next week for formatting issues
17:08:28 [pfps]
alanr: objections? - none
17:08:58 [pfps]
Subtopic: F2F3
17:09:07 [pfps]
alanr: please indicate registration status
17:09:20 [pfps]
Subtopic: Action item status
17:09:25 [bmotik]
Zakim, unmute me
17:09:25 [Zakim]
bmotik should no longer be muted
17:09:51 [pfps]
alanr: ACTION160 pending
17:10:07 [pfps]
boris: everything OK except status of top in EL++
17:10:13 [pfps]
alanr: Zhe?
17:10:31 [uli]
...say againb
17:10:36 [pfps]
Zhe: OK with current status
17:10:51 [pfps]
alanr: should bottom role be added separately where OK?
17:10:59 [msmith]
q+ to ask about dl-lite
17:11:06 [alanr]
q?
17:11:07 [pfps]
boris: they should be added as pairs as they are converses
17:11:13 [uli]
zakim, unmute me
17:11:13 [Zakim]
uli should no longer be muted
17:11:13 [alanr]
ack msmith
17:11:15 [Zakim]
msmith, you wanted to ask about dl-lite
17:11:25 [pfps]
msmith: is top OK in dl-lite
17:11:57 [pfps]
boris: might change complexity, but I don't know, so an investigation would be needed to add it
17:12:08 [pfps]
alanr: add an issue for this?
17:12:34 [msmith]
+1 to close action. this can be discussed on list.
17:12:35 [pfps]
uli: action on me to ask Diego whether dl-lite can accept top
17:12:41 [uli]
zakim, mute me
17:12:41 [Zakim]
uli should now be muted
17:12:55 [pfps]
alanr: ACTION160 closed
17:13:07 [pfps]
ACTION42
17:13:14 [pfps]
alanr: Bijan not here so pass
17:13:18 [pfps]
ACTION150
17:13:23 [alanr]
http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/InternalizedString
17:13:39 [pfps]
alanr: has anyone looked at the document
17:13:55 [pfps]
alanr: intent of action is to also start discussion
17:14:14 [pfps]
baojie: I gathered information
17:14:24 [bmotik]
q+
17:14:33 [alanr]
ack bmotik
17:14:39 [pfps]
alanr: can you also initiate discussion with RIF WG?
17:14:46 [pfps]
baojie: OK
17:14:58 [pfps]
boris: is this all going to a new document?
17:15:17 [pfps]
baojie: the page is not part of the spec, but it will lead to something
17:15:18 [alanr]
q?
17:15:40 [msmith]
Yes, I thought it was to be a spec, in case we beat RIF forward
17:15:43 [pfps]
alanr: Ivan was suggesting a mini-specification, but the WG stance was not clear
17:16:32 [pfps]
alanr: there should be some publication in some form
17:17:05 [pfps]
alanr: there would then be something for both WGs to point to
17:17:19 [pfps]
ACTION 155
17:17:19 [trackbot]
Sorry, bad ACTION syntax
17:17:28 [pfps]
ACTION155
17:17:42 [pfps]
alanr: Ivan not here so postpone
17:17:52 [pfps]
ACTION156 and ACTION157
17:18:06 [pfps]
alanr: I'm behind so postpone
17:18:15 [pfps]
Topic: Issues
17:18:25 [pfps]
Subtopic: ISSUE109
17:18:47 [bijan]
bijan has joined #owl
17:18:48 [pfps]
alanr: what namespace to use for owl xml syntax
17:19:02 [pfps]
alanr: Ivan's email summarizes the situation
17:19:11 [pfps]
alanr: vote on the issue
17:19:24 [Zakim]
+??P2
17:19:32 [bijan]
zakim, ??P2 is me
17:19:32 [Zakim]
+bijan; got it
17:19:36 [bijan]
Hi
17:19:41 [bijan]
zakim, mute me
17:19:41 [Zakim]
bijan should now be muted
17:19:54 [bijan]
zakim, unmute me
17:19:54 [Zakim]
bijan should no longer be muted
17:20:07 [bijan]
zakim, mute me
17:20:07 [Zakim]
bijan should now be muted
17:20:35 [pfps]
PROPOSED: Use one namespace (vote 1) two namespaces (vote 2) or don't care (vote 0)
17:20:44 [pfps]
pfps: 1
17:20:45 [bmotik]
2
17:20:46 [Achille]
q+
17:20:46 [baojie]
0
17:20:49 [uli]
1
17:20:49 [IanH]
1
17:20:49 [bijan]
1
17:20:53 [bcuencagrau]
0
17:20:55 [m_schnei]
2 (fzi)
17:21:05 [MartinD]
2
17:21:14 [alanr]
Ivan: 2
17:21:36 [bijan]
zakim, unmute me
17:21:36 [Zakim]
bijan should no longer be muted
17:21:38 [msmith]
vote 0 (C&P)
17:21:49 [alanr]
2 (science commons)
17:21:51 [pfps]
Achille: if we use the same namespace, will there be different things using the same URI
17:22:29 [pfps]
bijan: no overlap (URI vs Qname), no overlap even discounting this
17:22:39 [Zhe]
0 (Oracle)
17:22:39 [Achille]
1
17:22:44 [baojie]
0(RPI)
17:22:46 [Achille]
1 (Achille)
17:22:50 [Achille]
1 (IBM)
17:22:52 [msmith]
revised vote 1 (C&P)
17:23:29 [bijan]
yes
17:23:29 [uli]
yes
17:23:40 [uli]
1 (Manchester)
17:24:09 [MartinD]
revision ... 2 (OU)
17:24:12 [bmotik]
Oxford: 0
17:25:14 [msmith]
I see 4x0 3x1 4x2
17:25:23 [bijan]
4 x 1
17:25:49 [alanr]
3x0 4x1 4x2
17:25:50 [alanr]
?
17:25:54 [bijan]
q+
17:25:57 [bijan]
zakim, unmut eme
17:25:57 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'unmut eme', bijan
17:26:03 [alanr]
ack achille
17:26:03 [bijan]
zakim, unmute me
17:26:04 [Zakim]
bijan was not muted, bijan
17:26:08 [alanr]
ack bijan
17:26:50 [pfps]
who is OU?
17:27:48 [pfps]
alanr: and the result is a tie! the chairs will figure out if it really is a tie
17:28:00 [bijan]
zakim, mute me
17:28:00 [Zakim]
bijan should now be muted
17:28:16 [pfps]
Subtopic: ISSUE112
17:28:26 [pfps]
alanr: names of top and bottom properties
17:28:40 [pfps]
boris: topObjectProperty, bottomObjectProperty, ...
17:28:48 [alanr]
q?
17:28:56 [pfps]
boris: ..., topDataProperty, bottomDataProperty
17:29:00 [alanr]
q?
17:29:07 [bmotik]
They are called owl:TopObjectProperty, owl:BottomObjectProperty, owl:TopDataProperty, owl:BottomDataProperty
17:29:39 [pfps]
PROPOSED: Resolve ISSUE 112 adding top and bottom properties with the names owl:TopObjectProperty, owl:BottomObjectProperty, owl:TopDataProperty, owl:BottomDataProperty
17:29:41 [bijan]
Nope
17:29:46 [bijan]
zakim, unmute me
17:29:46 [Zakim]
bijan should no longer be muted
17:30:05 [m_schnei]
if there is bottomDataProperty, why isn't there owl:DataNothing?
17:30:07 [pfps]
alanr: Does this mess up the "single" root of property hierarchies?
17:30:30 [bmotik]
+1
17:30:32 [bijan]
+1
17:30:32 [msmith]
+1 to resolve issue-112 as stated
17:30:33 [baojie]
+1
17:30:36 [alanr]
0
17:30:36 [bcuencagrau]
+1
17:30:42 [m_schnei]
+1
17:30:45 [bijan]
zakim, mute me
17:30:45 [Zakim]
bijan should now be muted
17:30:47 [uli]
+1
17:30:49 [MartinD]
+1
17:30:51 [pfps]
pfps:+1 to resolve issue-112 as stated
17:30:52 [Zhe]
+1
17:30:54 [Achille]
0
17:30:56 [IanH]
+1
17:31:07 [pfps]
RESOLVED: Resolve ISSUE 112 adding top and bottom properties with the names owl:TopObjectProperty, owl:BottomObjectProperty, owl:TopDataProperty, owl:BottomDataProperty
17:31:13 [m_schnei]
q+
17:31:24 [alanr]
ack m_schnei
17:32:03 [bmotik]
+q
17:32:08 [pfps]
m_schnei: is there a difference between Nothing and the empty datatype?
17:32:10 [bijan]
q+
17:32:11 [alanr]
ack bmotik
17:32:13 [alanr]
q?
17:32:27 [pfps]
m_schnei: do we need a name for the empty datatype?
17:33:04 [pfps]
boris: for properties we need the two bottom properties to allow for syntactic typing of expressions
17:33:31 [pfps]
m_schneid: what about empty datatype name?
17:33:33 [bijan]
zakim, unmute me
17:33:33 [Zakim]
bijan should no longer be muted
17:33:43 [alanr]
complementOf(rdfs:literal)?
17:33:49 [pfps]
boris: we can have it - but there is already syntax for it
17:34:04 [pfps]
bijan: i go either way
17:34:04 [m_schnei]
zakim, mute me
17:34:04 [Zakim]
m_schnei should now be muted
17:34:09 [bijan]
zakim, mute me
17:34:09 [Zakim]
bijan should now be muted
17:34:32 [pfps]
Subtopic: ISSUE-21 and ISSUE-24
17:35:54 [pfps]
IanH: there has been extensive discussion leading to a "resolution"
17:36:21 [pfps]
IanH: see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jun/0126.html
17:36:32 [IanH]
q?
17:37:11 [bijan]
q-
17:37:18 [IanH]
q?
17:37:23 [pfps]
pfps: wording has problems for me - also incompatibleWith gives syntactic invalidity
17:37:39 [pfps]
boris: this has been there a few weeks
17:38:10 [alanr]
q+
17:38:29 [pfps]
pfps: my problem was the wording of Alan's message - syntactic invalidity
17:38:41 [pfps]
boris: incompatibleWith has been in a while
17:39:17 [IanH]
q?
17:39:18 [pfps]
boris: still a should - only change is to call the problem a syntactic invalidity
17:39:48 [m_schnei]
q+
17:40:30 [pfps]
alanr: two cases - 1 - imports of two different versions of the ontology - 2 - importing incompatibleWith ontologies
17:40:32 [bmotik]
q+
17:40:51 [pfps]
alanr: were treated differently - changed to be the same way
17:41:03 [IanH]
q?
17:41:13 [IanH]
ack alanr
17:41:24 [m_schnei]
zakim, mute me
17:41:24 [Zakim]
m_schnei was already muted, m_schnei
17:41:24 [pfps]
alanr: syntactic invalidity was borrowed from case 2
17:41:37 [alanr]
from case 1, peter
17:41:45 [m_schnei]
zakim, mute me
17:41:45 [Zakim]
m_schnei was already muted, m_schnei
17:41:49 [IanH]
ack m_schnei
17:41:53 [IanH]
ack bmotik
17:41:58 [alanr]
peter: do you catch the scribe correction?
17:42:00 [pfps]
boris: intention was to treat both cases the same
17:42:09 [IanH]
no!
17:42:19 [IanH]
q?
17:42:38 [pfps]
boris: now they are both treated the same way
17:43:18 [pfps]
pfps: I don't consider this to be a syntactic problem - instead it is something else
17:43:50 [bmotik]
q+
17:44:02 [pfps]
IanH: then what should happen
17:44:04 [IanH]
q?
17:44:06 [m_schnei]
zakim, mute me
17:44:06 [Zakim]
m_schnei should now be muted
17:44:14 [IanH]
q?
17:44:18 [IanH]
ack bmotik
17:44:28 [pfps]
boris: should allows exceptions
17:44:45 [pfps]
IanH: both cases should be the same
17:44:55 [pfps]
pfps: both are the same
17:45:28 [pfps]
pfps: syntactic validity *should* not involved a should
17:45:39 [alanr]
q+ to ask one more question
17:45:41 [pfps]
IanH: let's take this to email
17:45:57 [IanH]
q?
17:45:57 [m_schnei]
in reverse RDF mapping, what happens if incompatibleWith occurs? is rdf graph rejected to be syntactically invalid OWL DL?
17:46:01 [IanH]
ack alanr
17:46:01 [Zakim]
alanr, you wanted to ask one more question
17:46:38 [pfps]
alanr: status of incompatibleWith on third-party ontologies
17:46:43 [pfps]
boris: resolve together
17:47:09 [pfps]
IanH: let's push for a single solution
17:47:25 [pfps]
Subtopic: ISSUE-108
17:47:37 [pfps]
alanr: what to name the profiles
17:47:53 [alanr]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008May/0120.html
17:48:01 [pfps]
alanr: contenders - one- and two-letter suffixes (see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008May/0120.html)
17:48:47 [pfps]
alanr: [lists the possibilities]
17:48:50 [bijan]
I'll note that I was misremembering earlier :( I just brain farted about e.g., owl:ObjectProprety. I'll send an email :(
17:48:52 [bmotik]
DDL is bad because it sounds too much like "distributed description logics"
17:49:00 [alanr]
q?
17:49:08 [pfps]
alanr: I prefer the one-letter versions
17:49:31 [uli]
..the link above seems to be broken
17:49:41 [IanH]
Not for me!
17:50:07 [uli]
...the ")" was the culprit, it works
17:50:42 [alanr]
1) OWL2E 2) OWL2 E 3) OWL E
17:50:57 [pfps]
q+
17:50:58 [bmotik]
In general, we have write "OWL 2" (with a space)
17:51:03 [bmotik]
s/write/written
17:51:14 [alanr]
4) OWL 2 E
17:51:17 [bmotik]
Yes
17:51:18 [pfps]
yes
17:51:21 [bijan]
OWL 2e
17:51:29 [m_schnei]
OWL E 2
17:51:37 [alanr]
5) OWL 2E
17:51:43 [m_schnei]
I mean this seriously...
17:51:51 [alanr]
6) OWL E 2
17:51:55 [bijan]
But isnt' the first version of OWL E?
17:51:59 [IanH]
OWL E2?
17:52:20 [IanH]
OWLE2?
17:52:23 [alanr]
2 be or not 2 be
17:52:32 [IanH]
Not serious
17:52:35 [bijan]
I just meant that I don't understand 6)
17:53:13 [alanr]
1) "OWL2E" 2) "OWL2 E" 3) "OWL E" 4) "OWL 2 E" 5) "OWL 2E" 6) "OWL E 2"
17:53:21 [m_schnei]
q+
17:53:24 [pfps]
q-
17:53:24 [bijan]
zakim, unmute me
17:53:25 [Zakim]
bijan should no longer be muted
17:53:28 [alanr]
ack pfps
17:53:31 [m_schnei]
zakim, unmute me
17:53:31 [Zakim]
m_schnei should no longer be muted
17:53:37 [alanr]
ack m_schnei
17:53:55 [uli]
...no it wouldn't help us
17:53:59 [m_schnei]
zakim, mute me
17:53:59 [Zakim]
m_schnei should now be muted
17:54:00 [pfps]
m_schnei: so consider OWL 2 Lite, ...
17:54:05 [bijan]
"OWL E 2" sounds like the second version of OWL E, not the E version of OWL 2 :)
17:54:14 [bmotik]
4
17:54:18 [m_schnei]
3
17:54:19 [pfps]
Straw Poll: put in preference (single vote)
17:54:21 [bcuencagrau]
4
17:54:25 [alanr]
3
17:54:27 [Zhe]
3 or 4
17:54:28 [pfps]
pfps: 4
17:54:33 [bijan]
5 (lowercase)
17:54:36 [uli]
1 or 4
17:54:41 [IanH]
4
17:54:51 [MartinD]
4 or 3
17:54:52 [bijan]
OOo, OWL^2^e
17:54:55 [msmith]
2
17:55:01 [baojie]
1
17:55:06 [Achille]
3
17:55:06 [bcuencagrau]
hey, what about the single vote?
17:55:31 [msmith]
q+
17:55:33 [m_schnei]
ok, I am going to withdraw 6 ;-)
17:55:42 [m_schnei]
zakim, mute me
17:55:42 [Zakim]
m_schnei was already muted, m_schnei
17:55:55 [pfps]
msmith: we are talking about spacing
17:55:56 [uli]
good idea!
17:56:54 [IanH]
We didn't consider hyphens!
17:56:55 [alanr]
1) E, D, R 2) EL, DB, LP for EL++, DL Lite, OWL R
17:57:24 [uli]
there was an alternative for the 2letter version for LP
17:57:52 [bmotik]
2
17:57:54 [bcuencagrau]
2
17:57:55 [pfps]
alanr: if the choice is two-letters we will later decide on which letters
17:57:59 [Zhe]
1
17:58:00 [alanr]
1
17:58:01 [MartinD]
2 chars
17:58:04 [m_schnei]
1
17:58:09 [Achille]
2
17:58:10 [pfps]
Staw Poll: one letter vs two letters
17:58:11 [pfps]
pfps: 0
17:58:12 [msmith]
1 to reduce search space
17:58:12 [uli]
1
17:58:15 [bijan]
0
17:58:19 [IanH]
2
17:58:21 [baojie]
1
17:58:48 [bijan]
I guess I could change to 1
17:59:07 [bmotik]
+q
17:59:09 [IanH]
I should own up to the fact that 3 twos came from Oxford
17:59:12 [pfps]
alanr: and the result is ............. 1 letter ...... by a hair
17:59:16 [alanr]
ack msmith
17:59:23 [alanr]
ack bmotik
17:59:23 [bcuencagrau]
+q
17:59:42 [Zakim]
-Alan
17:59:44 [alanr]
phone crapped out. back in a sec
17:59:54 [bijan]
q+
17:59:55 [Achille]
+1 for boris
17:59:57 [bijan]
zakim, mute me
17:59:57 [Zakim]
bijan should now be muted
17:59:58 [IanH]
zakim, unmute me
17:59:58 [Zakim]
IanH should no longer be muted
17:59:59 [bcuencagrau]
Zakim, unmute me
18:00:00 [Zakim]
bcuencagrau should no longer be muted
18:00:02 [bijan]
zakim, unmute me
18:00:02 [Zakim]
bijan should no longer be muted
18:00:09 [pfps]
boris: we should consider which one-letter names
18:00:11 [Zakim]
+Alan_Ruttenberg
18:00:33 [alanr]
q?
18:01:11 [pfps]
boris: OWL 2 E could be OWL 2 T (for tboxes)
18:01:19 [bmotik]
OWL 2 Tax
18:01:22 [alanr]
ack bcencagrau
18:01:24 [uli]
eee
18:01:32 [alanr]
ack bcuencagrau
18:01:50 [alanr]
ack bijan
18:01:54 [pfps]
bernardo: E doesn't mean anything, we need a better letter for it
18:01:56 [bcuencagrau]
Zakim, unmute me
18:01:56 [Zakim]
bcuencagrau was not muted, bcuencagrau
18:02:00 [bcuencagrau]
Zakim, mute me
18:02:00 [Zakim]
bcuencagrau should now be muted
18:02:01 [IanH]
Agree with Bernardo!
18:02:45 [m_schnei]
expand "tbox"... "T" for defining "[T]erminologies
18:02:47 [Zhe]
second Bijan
18:03:01 [uli]
...a bit of mnemonic helps, but there can be too much in a name!
18:03:02 [bmotik]
+q
18:03:08 [pfps]
bijan: the names should just be "names", i.e., with no inherent meaning
18:03:09 [uli]
q+
18:03:14 [bcuencagrau]
right
18:03:16 [alanr]
ack bmotik
18:03:17 [pfps]
boris: then use A,B,C
18:03:19 [pfps]
bijan: OK
18:03:27 [alanr]
ack uli
18:03:28 [uli]
zakim, unmute me
18:03:28 [IanH]
Disagree with A,B,C!
18:03:29 [Zakim]
uli was not muted, uli
18:03:44 [pfps]
uli: a little bit of mnemonic is useful
18:03:49 [IanH]
+1
18:03:58 [uli]
zakim, mute me
18:03:58 [Zakim]
uli should now be muted
18:04:22 [bijan]
I wouldn't select A, B, C, obviously. THe current names are better!
18:04:35 [m_schnei]
A=[A]ssertionbox, B = data[B]ase, C = [C]lasses
18:04:41 [pfps]
alanr: think about this during the week and a proposal may show up for next week
18:04:44 [IanH]
For EL and R, I don't see what is wrong with EL and R
18:05:01 [pfps]
Topic: General Discussion
18:05:15 [pfps]
List of normative datatypes
18:05:30 [alanr]
http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/issues/126
18:05:49 [uli]
q+
18:06:04 [pfps]
boris: the current list of datatypes includes lots of XML schema datatypes, some of which are problematics
18:06:12 [pfps]
boris: Jeremy had a paper on this
18:06:14 [Zakim]
-MartinD
18:06:22 [MartinD]
MartinD has left #OWL
18:06:43 [pfps]
boris: decimal datatype not useful - no division - rational better
18:07:15 [pfps]
boris: float and double are even worse - finite but huge, with bad mathematical properties
18:07:34 [pfps]
boris: these could end up with strange consequences
18:07:35 [alanr]
q+ to ask whether if we don't use these in class expressions, could we leave them for annotations
18:07:49 [pfps]
boris: Jeremy points out that operations are not associative on these
18:08:03 [pfps]
boris: let's use instead rational and/or real
18:08:31 [pfps]
boris: date datatypes have some problems
18:09:09 [pfps]
boris: pattern facet can be applied to numbers with hard-to-predict results
18:09:24 [alanr]
q?
18:09:27 [uli]
zakim, unmute me
18:09:27 [Zakim]
uli should no longer be muted
18:09:31 [pfps]
boris: these datatypes are in XML schema to handle input and don't match reasoning
18:09:42 [pfps]
uli: I wildly agree with Boris
18:09:48 [msmith]
q+
18:09:50 [pfps]
uli: RacerPro people also agree
18:09:52 [uli]
zakim, mute me
18:09:52 [Zakim]
uli should now be muted
18:09:56 [alanr]
ack uli
18:09:58 [alanr]
ack alanr
18:09:58 [Zakim]
alanr, you wanted to ask whether if we don't use these in class expressions, could we leave them for annotations
18:10:13 [pfps]
alanr: what about using them in annotations?
18:10:14 [pfps]
q+
18:10:15 [bmotik]
q+
18:10:24 [alanr]
ack msmith
18:10:52 [pfps]
msmith: several different problems, should we split them?
18:11:03 [pfps]
msmith: rational/real is already on the table
18:11:05 [msmith]
msmith: I suggest breaking this into multiple issues, for reals we have ISSUE-87 with proposed resolution http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/OWL_Rational
18:11:09 [alanr]
ack pfps
18:11:38 [alanr]
ack bmotik
18:11:50 [pfps]
pfps: input could have odd datatypes, provided they could be mapped to "better" datatypes
18:12:17 [alanr]
q+ to ask if approximating annotation values would mean you wouldn't get back what you put in sometimes.
18:12:21 [alanr]
q?
18:12:33 [pfps]
boris: numerics issues intertwined - if rational and real are included then this solves some of the problems
18:12:56 [m_schnei]
so what would then be the mandatory types? string, integer, rational, real? something else? (reasoning about quaternions in 3d apps might be cool :))
18:12:58 [pfps]
boris: against allowing input-only datatype
18:13:18 [alanr]
ack alanr
18:13:18 [Zakim]
alanr, you wanted to ask if approximating annotation values would mean you wouldn't get back what you put in sometimes.
18:13:51 [pfps]
alanr: couldn't annotation values just be left alone?
18:14:08 [pfps]
alanr: wouldn't approximating input values lead to roundtripping problems
18:14:12 [bmotik]
q+
18:14:38 [pfps]
alanr: what about OWL accepting experimental data (which will be in some existing format)
18:14:42 [IanH]
music?
18:14:42 [uli]
cool music
18:14:55 [IanH]
zakim, who is speaking
18:14:55 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is speaking', IanH
18:14:57 [uli]
zakim, who is on the phone
18:14:57 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is on the phone', uli
18:15:00 [alanr]
zakim, who is talking
18:15:00 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is talking', alanr
18:15:06 [IanH]
zakim, who is talking?
18:15:11 [alanr]
zakim, who is speaking
18:15:11 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is speaking', alanr
18:15:14 [uli]
zakim, who is here
18:15:14 [Zakim]
uli, you need to end that query with '?'
18:15:18 [uli]
zakim, who is here?
18:15:18 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, uli, baojie, Zhe, bcuencagrau (muted), IanH (muted), msmith, Achille, m_schnei (muted), bmotik, bijan, Alan_Ruttenberg
18:15:19 [pfps]
Zakim, who is talking?
18:15:21 [Zakim]
On IRC I see bijan, m_schnei, Achille, bmotik, IanH, msmith, Zhe, uli, baojie, alanr, bcuencagrau, RRSAgent, Zakim, sandro, pfps, trackbot
18:15:24 [bijan]
zakim, who's spaming us with music?
18:15:24 [Zakim]
IanH, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Alan_Ruttenberg (3%), uli (3%), Zhe (44%)
18:15:26 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, bijan.
18:15:32 [uli]
zakim, mute me
18:15:32 [Zakim]
pfps, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: bmotik (5%), Alan_Ruttenberg (4%)
18:15:32 [IanH]
its zhe!
18:15:34 [Zakim]
uli should now be muted
18:15:37 [bijan]
zakim, mute zhe
18:15:39 [Zakim]
Zhe should now be muted
18:15:49 [Zhe]
sorry
18:15:51 [alanr]
q?
18:15:51 [bijan]
zakim, unmute zhe
18:15:55 [bijan]
zakim, mute zhe
18:15:59 [Zakim]
Zhe should no longer be muted
18:16:00 [alanr]
q?
18:16:01 [Zakim]
Zhe should now be muted
18:16:02 [Zhe]
zakim, mute me
18:16:07 [alanr]
q?
18:16:11 [Zakim]
Zhe was already muted, Zhe
18:16:12 [alanr]
ack bmotik
18:17:06 [bijan]
q+
18:17:08 [pfps]
boris: input data should be mapped into better datatypes prior to input to OWL
18:17:36 [alanr]
link http://www.comlab.ox.ac.uk/people/boris.motik/publications/mh08datatypes.pdf is broken
18:17:53 [pfps]
boris: could also allow input that looks like "2.5"^^xsd:float, but this would be translated into the real / rational 2.5
18:17:57 [bijan]
zakim, unmute me
18:17:57 [Zakim]
bijan was not muted, bijan
18:17:57 [msmith]
use http://www.comlab.ox.ac.uk/people/boris.motik/pubs/mh08datatypes.pdf
18:18:06 [alanr]
q?
18:18:09 [alanr]
ack bijan
18:18:12 [pfps]
pfps: that was essentially my proposal
18:18:32 [bmotik]
+q
18:18:52 [alanr]
ack bmotik
18:18:59 [pfps]
bijan: can't give up input with double/float/... but ...
18:19:02 [alanr]
q+
18:19:12 [uli]
q+
18:19:34 [pfps]
boris: in most cases nothing bad would happen, but double/float are finite and having a datarange of float is dangerous
18:19:35 [alanr]
ack alanr
18:19:44 [pfps]
boris: for dates even the names are problematic
18:19:55 [bmotik]
q+
18:19:56 [pfps]
bijan: this breaks existing ontologies
18:20:00 [m_schnei]
boris: OWL 1 only has string and integer
18:20:07 [pfps]
boris: but OWL 1 only had integer and string
18:20:08 [alanr]
q?
18:20:11 [msmith]
one doc says sting & integer, one says everything but duration
18:20:18 [pfps]
bijan: it allowed others and they were used
18:20:30 [pfps]
alanr: more investigation needed
18:20:35 [msmith]
q+
18:20:53 [pfps]
alanr: my main concern is scientific use of OWL
18:20:54 [uli]
ack me
18:20:55 [alanr]
ack uli
18:21:11 [msmith]
q-
18:21:31 [pfps]
uli: for numerics - internal space can be larger (input) but input space can be as in XML
18:21:50 [pfps]
uli: could even have xsd:float being internally the same as real
18:22:10 [msmith]
not xsd:float though, really xsd:decimal
18:22:12 [alanr]
ack bmotik
18:22:15 [pfps]
alanr: what about rounding
18:22:30 [uli]
zakim, mute me
18:22:30 [Zakim]
uli should now be muted
18:22:34 [IanH]
cerebra
18:22:47 [pfps]
boris: network inference datatype reasoner did this remapping
18:22:53 [alanr]
q?
18:23:08 [IanH]
s/network inference/cerebra/
18:23:21 [pfps]
boris: we could just do the remapping internally
18:23:23 [alanr]
q+ to ask if we could have a small writeup of this proposal that we could shop around to interested parties
18:23:34 [msmith]
q+ to react to remapping
18:23:42 [m_schnei]
computer languages generally have LongFloat libraries, with arbitrary length decimals
18:23:43 [pfps]
boris: rounding would not be a problem (if nothing is done on the value)
18:23:44 [alanr]
ack alanr
18:23:44 [Zakim]
alanr, you wanted to ask if we could have a small writeup of this proposal that we could shop around to interested parties
18:24:20 [msmith]
q-
18:24:21 [pfps]
alanr: could we have a writeup or a pointer on the mapping solution
18:24:39 [pfps]
boris: I'll do it
18:24:42 [alanr]
q?
18:24:49 [Zhe]
q+
18:24:55 [pfps]
Zakim, who is on the call?
18:24:55 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, uli (muted), baojie, Zhe (muted), bcuencagrau (muted), IanH (muted), msmith, Achille, m_schnei (muted), bmotik, bijan, Alan_Ruttenberg
18:25:03 [Zhe]
zakim, unmute me
18:25:03 [Zakim]
Zhe should no longer be muted
18:25:07 [alanr]
ack zhe
18:25:13 [pfps]
Zakim, who is here?
18:25:13 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, uli (muted), baojie, Zhe, bcuencagrau (muted), IanH (muted), msmith, Achille, m_schnei (muted), bmotik, bijan, Alan_Ruttenberg
18:25:16 [Zakim]
On IRC I see bijan, m_schnei, Achille, bmotik, IanH, msmith, Zhe, uli, baojie, alanr, bcuencagrau, RRSAgent, Zakim, sandro, pfps, trackbot
18:25:42 [alanr]
q?
18:25:58 [pfps]
Topic: Other Business
18:26:03 [Zhe]
zakim, mute me
18:26:03 [Zakim]
Zhe should now be muted
18:26:03 [pfps]
Subtopic: testing
18:26:09 [msmith]
msmith: I've started by using the WebOnt tests. See http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/User:MikeSmith#WebOnt
18:26:22 [msmith]
... rather than move them all, I moved one of each test type and am beginning to develop the supporting infrastructure around that
18:26:30 [msmith]
... there are a few different hierarchies for tests (e.g., type, "species", etc) See http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Category:Test_Case
18:26:55 [msmith]
... people can base new tests on what's there, but it shouldn't be considered stable yet and you're probably better waiting
18:27:13 [alanr]
q?
18:27:21 [pfps]
alanr: questions?
18:27:38 [pfps]
alanr: Adjourn
18:27:40 [IanH]
bye
18:27:40 [Zakim]
-Achille
18:27:41 [uli]
bye bye
18:27:42 [m_schnei]
bye
18:27:43 [Zakim]
-bmotik
18:27:44 [Zakim]
-msmith
18:27:45 [Zakim]
-uli
18:27:46 [Zakim]
-IanH
18:27:48 [Zakim]
-Alan_Ruttenberg
18:27:51 [Zakim]
-m_schnei
18:27:53 [Zakim]
-Zhe
18:27:55 [uli]
uli has left #owl
18:28:00 [Zakim]
-bcuencagrau
18:28:17 [msmith]
msmith has left #owl
18:28:27 [Zakim]
-Peter_Patel-Schneider
18:28:53 [Zakim]
-bijan
18:28:54 [Zakim]
-baojie
18:28:54 [Zakim]
SW_OWL()12:00PM has ended
18:28:56 [Zakim]
Attendees were Peter_Patel-Schneider, MartinD, uli, baojie, Zhe, bcuencagrau, bmotik, Alan, IanH, msmith, Achille, m_schnei, bijan, Alan_Ruttenberg
18:58:44 [sandro]
sandro has joined #owl
20:35:26 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #owl
22:53:15 [sandro]
sandro has joined #owl
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sandro has joined #owl