07:30:57 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #xhtml
07:30:57 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/06/17-xhtml-irc
07:31:03 <Steven> zakim, this will be xhtml
07:31:03 <Zakim> ok, Steven; I see IA_XHTML2()4:00AM scheduled to start in 29 minutes
07:31:22 <Steven> rrsagent, make log public
07:31:37 <Steven> Meeting: XHTML Virtual FtF Day 1
07:31:41 <Steven> Chair: Roland
07:32:48 <Steven> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jun/0043
07:32:53 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jun/0043
07:33:29 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
07:33:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/17-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
07:48:03 <oedipus> oedipus has joined #xhtml
07:58:02 <Steven> Steven has joined #xhtml
07:58:30 <Steven> rrsagent, here?
07:58:30 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2008/06/17-xhtml-irc#T07-58-30
08:00:09 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()4:00AM has now started
08:00:17 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
08:00:19 <Zakim> +Roland
08:00:20 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
08:00:21 <Zakim> +Steven
08:01:17 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
08:03:25 <Steven> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2008-06-FtF-Agenda
08:03:37 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2008-06-FtF-Agenda
08:06:23 <Zakim> +??P2
08:06:46 <Steven> zakim, ??P2 is Yam
08:06:46 <Zakim> +Yam; got it
08:06:46 <oedipus> zakim, ??P2 is Yam
08:06:48 <Zakim> I already had ??P2 as Yam, oedipus
08:08:14 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/Project/IRC/
08:08:48 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/Project/IRC/#Client
08:09:03 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2001/01/cgi-irc
08:09:18 <Roland> http://cgi.w3.org/member-bin/irc/irc.cgi
08:12:43 <yamx> yamx has joined #xhtml
08:12:57 <yamx> hello, this is yam.
08:13:12 <oedipus> for ARIA discussion - host language integration proposed by CharlesMcN: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2008AprJun/att-0407/aria-implementation.html
08:13:31 <Steven> Scribe: Steven
08:13:39 <Steven> Topic: Backpatting
08:13:49 <Steven> Steven: Three specs have transitioned this week
08:13:52 <Steven> ... Basic
08:13:54 <Steven> ... M12N
08:13:57 <Steven> ... RDFa
08:14:12 <oedipus> hip, hip, hooray!
08:14:52 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/News/2008#item111
08:18:18 <oedipus> for ARIA discussion - host language integration proposed by CharlesMcN: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2008AprJun/att-0407/aria-implementation.html
08:20:07 <Steven> Gergory: There is a proposal. Basic proposal, doesn't actually use role
08:20:15 <oedipus> ARIA roles are applied to an element with the "role" attribute. This attribute is derived from the XHTML Role Attribute Module [XHTML-ROLES] but is not technically an actual usage of that specification. As in the XHTML Role Attribute Module, this attribute is in no namespace. However, values of the attribute are not CURIEs [CURIE], but simply strings.
08:20:42 <Steven> s/Gerg/Greg/
08:20:44 <oedipus> The role attribute indicates what type of object the element represents.
08:20:56 <Steven> Gregory: It doesn't use CURIEs either, but just strings
08:22:55 <ShaneM> zakim, code
08:22:55 <Zakim> I don't understand 'code', ShaneM
08:22:59 <Steven> ... the whole effort right now, misplaced in my opinion, hardcodes aria-* into Firefox
08:23:22 <Steven> ... and can only be fixed in a future non-point revision of Firefox
08:23:24 <ShaneM> zakim, what is the code
08:23:24 <Zakim> I don't understand 'what is the code', ShaneM
08:23:44 <Steven> xhtml shan
08:23:45 <Steven> e
08:24:02 <Steven> Gregory: Does this effect the XML serialization?
08:24:08 <ShaneM> cant wake up enough to remember the phone number....
08:24:09 <Steven> ... I would like namespacing everywhere
08:24:36 <Steven> Gregory: The TAG doesn't like aria-*, but was willing to live with it
08:24:58 <Steven> ... without setting precedent, they allowed aria-* for HTML5
08:25:15 <Steven> ... but scripting is going to be different either way
08:25:33 <Steven> ... there is a plan for a meeting with the HTML5 people
08:25:35 <Zakim> +ShaneM
08:27:00 <Steven> Roland: A related question
08:27:08 <Steven> .. there is an example in XHTML
08:27:12 <Roland> XHTML example: span class="checkbox"  id="chbox1" role="checkbox" aria-checked="true" tabindex="0"
08:28:02 <Steven> ... that is XHTML, what is the equivalent in HTML5
08:28:13 <Steven> s/5/5?/
08:28:50 <Steven> .. all the examples are different
08:28:57 <Steven> Gregory: That is part of the problem
08:29:10 <Steven> ... there is a difference in how HTML5 and XHTML treat role
08:29:22 <Steven> Roland: I don't really understand the proposal properly
08:30:10 <Steven> ... until I can see the same example in each language next to each other
08:30:28 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008Jun/att-0048/nameFromProposal.html#implementation
08:30:34 <Steven> Roles use a special-purpose "role" (CMN: should this be aria-role?) attribute whose value is the name of the role. 
08:31:13 <Tina> Tina has joined #xhtml
08:31:54 <Steven> Shane: One of the many possible uses of role is classifying an element
08:33:03 <Steven> Roland: So I would like to see examples comapring them
08:33:13 <Steven> s/comap/compa/
08:34:45 <oedipus> SP: as far as i can see, one ramification of TAG decision vis a vis aria dash is that we have the worst of all possible worlds; aria- rather than aria: disappears; consistency across HTML and XHTML - just as difficult to code in javascript, HTML and XHTML because have to use diff ways of writing diff things
08:35:02 <oedipus> SM: made proposal that all aria- and be done with it
08:35:41 <oedipus> RM: aria- just as other dash
08:35:50 <alessio> alessio has joined #xhtml
08:35:58 <oedipus> SP: both syntax forms used -- dash and colon
08:36:16 <alessio> hi all
08:36:37 <Steven> Shane: My proposal is to use aria-* everywhere
08:36:39 <oedipus> SM: proposed no aria: - collection of aria dash
08:36:59 <Steven> Gregory: Rich accepts the TAG decision
08:37:22 <Steven> Roland: What was the decision for SVG?
08:37:27 <Steven> Gregory: Still being negotiated
08:37:54 <Steven> ... HTML5 aren't really interested in coming to a compromise
08:38:21 <Steven> Roland: We have a mess as it is
08:38:44 <Steven> ... we can't create a clean version for the future if we don't use the mechanisms that exist
08:39:12 <Steven> Gregory: The effort is being driven by the implementors
08:39:17 <Steven> ... rather than the community
08:39:33 <Steven> Roland: But then the authors pay the price
08:39:39 <Steven> Gregory: Yes
08:39:48 <Steven> ... it is very short sighted
08:39:59 <Roland> I would suggest that for XHTML, HTML and SVG you add the same to an element, e.g. -- class="checkbox"  id="chbox1" role="checkbox" aria-checked="true" tabindex="0" --
08:40:03 <Steven> Present: ROland, Gregory, Steven, Tina, Alessio
08:40:07 <Steven> s/RO/Ro/
08:40:18 <Steven> Present+Yam
08:40:25 <Steven> Present+Shane
08:40:36 <Steven> Yam: A question.
08:41:11 <Steven> ... for consistency, we are using aria-*, and so we have to accept the non-namespace?
08:41:56 <Steven> Gregory: Yes
08:42:18 <Tina> Could someone please remind me of the phone #?
08:42:19 <Steven> Steven: So this means that aria-* are chameleon, just the name identifies it
08:42:26 <Steven> zakim, code?
08:42:26 <Zakim> the conference code is 94865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Steven
08:42:28 <oedipus> string literal
08:42:53 <Tina> Thank you, Steven.
08:43:37 <oedipus> RM: this is it in our schema (SVG as well) - literal set of characters mean something
08:43:51 <oedipus> SM: same as class treatment in some contexts
08:43:52 <Steven> Shane: Class is like this too
08:44:14 <Steven> Gregory: I will follow up with SVG to find out what the status is
08:44:21 <Zakim> + +04670855aaaa
08:44:34 <Steven> zakim, aaaa is Tina
08:44:34 <Zakim> +Tina; got it
08:45:33 <Steven> Roland: So the validator has to accept different things
08:46:02 <Steven> Shane: Do you expect aria-* to expand in a future spec?
08:46:06 <Steven> Gregory: Yes
08:46:46 <Steven> ... we are not being treated like a module; we are being swallowed whole
08:47:03 <Steven> Shane: Like role
08:47:14 <Steven> Steven: And MathML and SVG by the looks too
08:49:05 <oedipus> RM: what we want is for authors used to writing aria-foo use same syntax no matter what
08:49:07 <Steven> Roland: If authors are used to aria-*, then it should be the same in all languages, regardless how stupid that is
08:50:33 <oedipus> HTML = getAttribute versus namespaced aria = getNSAttribute
08:51:55 <oedipus> GJR agrees strongly with steven - shortsighted decision
08:53:06 <Steven> Steven: This pulls the rug from under the feet of the accessibility community
08:53:39 <Steven> ... it prevents them using aria in any languages except for the ones that have explicitely adopted the attributes
08:53:54 <Steven> .. wheras the extensibility of XML should allow them to be used everywhere
08:54:02 <Steven> s/wheras/whereas/
08:54:12 <oedipus> a model of how not to draft a spec - compromised colon because of IE6, aria dash adapted by fiat by FF3 - decisions being driven by implementation
08:54:33 <Steven> Roland: How should we react
08:54:38 <Steven> s/react/react?/
08:55:18 <oedipus> GJR would like to know what the TAG expects to happen after this "once-off" exception
08:55:19 <Steven> Shane: I thought we'd already decided
08:55:54 <Lachy> Lachy has joined #xhtml
08:55:56 <Steven> Roland: We are looking out for the authors
08:56:21 <Steven> ... so that should drive our decision
08:56:50 <Steven> Yam: We should say that we support the authors and use aria-*
08:56:51 <oedipus> thank you roland for taking a firm stance -- that is one thing that has been lacking from others (XHTML2 WG has always been aria's best friend)
08:58:02 <Steven> Roland: We have to stand up for the rights of the author
08:58:36 <Steven> ... I will draft something short and we can discuss it later this week
08:59:24 <oedipus> thank you very much roland
08:59:37 <alessio> Roland: +1
08:59:46 <Zakim> -ShaneM
08:59:49 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
08:59:54 <Zakim> -Steven
08:59:55 <Zakim> -Tina
08:59:58 <Zakim> -Yam
08:59:58 <Steven> == BREAK ==
09:00:24 <Steven> === Return at **:15 ===
09:01:19 <markbirbeck> markbirbeck has joined #xhtml
09:01:59 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
09:01:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/17-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
09:02:02 <Steven> back at **:15
09:05:15 <markbirbeck> Thanks...not sure how much I can join though, due to ongoing problems that have to be sorted out.
09:12:03 <yamx> yamx has joined #xhtml
09:16:00 <oedipus> FYI from: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008Jun/att-0048/nameFromProposal.html#implementation
09:16:00 <oedipus> Note: ARIA roles are in the namespace of the rest of the document, if defined, and do not require a namespace prefix. If other roles are provided in the role attribute, they MUST have namespace prefixes. The namespace prefixes are not processed as namespaces per se but serve to distinguish non-ARIA roles.
09:16:00 <oedipus> Each ARIA state and property is represented with its own attribute. The state and property attributes are in no namespace, meaning the attributes are implemented without namespace qualifiers like other attributes of the host language. To minimize the chance of conflict with attribute names defined in the host language, the attribute name for each state and property is the prefix "aria-" plus the name of the state or property. For example, the attribute name 
09:16:03 <oedipus> Note: In most cases, the attributes required to represent the ARIA states and properties are not defined in the host language. The role attribute may also not be defined. If the host language does not provide an extensibility mechanism, documents that implement ARIA in this manner will not pass DTD-based validation. However, user agents that conform to ARIA will process such documents.
09:16:08 <oedipus> Editorial note: we are exploring mechanisms to provide automated conformance checking for documents that include ARIA. This might be provided informatively as a tool, and conformance checking with it is not required. Providing an unofficial version of the HTML DTD with ARIA support added to drive existing validators might be useful as well.
09:17:56 <Tina> An exception to existing specifications, in other words?
09:18:55 <ShaneM> omw
09:19:01 <yamx> I am here, but not called in yet.
09:19:10 <Steven> zakim, who is here?
09:19:10 <Zakim> On the phone I see Roland
09:19:11 <Zakim> On IRC I see yamx, markbirbeck, Lachy, alessio, Tina, Steven, oedipus, RRSAgent, Zakim, Roland, deane, ShaneM
09:19:20 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
09:19:20 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
09:19:21 <Zakim> -Roland
09:19:21 <Zakim> +Roland
09:19:22 <Zakim> +Steven
09:19:55 <Zakim> +ShaneM
09:20:18 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
09:20:22 <Zakim> +??P4
09:20:32 <yamx> Zakim, ??P4 is yamx
09:20:32 <Zakim> +yamx; got it
09:20:33 <Zakim> +Tina
09:20:44 <oedipus> FYI: mark checked in, but his participation may be limited
09:21:12 <ShaneM> zakim, who is here?
09:21:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see Roland, Steven, ShaneM, Gregory_Rosmaita, yamx, Tina
09:21:14 <Zakim> On IRC I see yamx, markbirbeck, Lachy, alessio, Tina, Steven, oedipus, RRSAgent, Zakim, Roland, deane, ShaneM
09:21:14 <Steven> Topic: Reviews
09:21:24 <Steven> Roland: XML Base
09:21:46 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jun/0036.html
09:21:54 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Jun/0018.html
09:22:18 <oedipus> SP: 4 comments
09:23:08 <oedipus> SP: first, change in XML Base is change from URI to "legacy extended IRI" -- increases number of chars that can appear in URI (includes diff charsets) -- IRIs for authoring, job of UA to encode when sending over the wire
09:23:19 <oedipus> SP: side-note: what we say about CURIEs
09:23:55 <oedipus> SP: IRI can include chars not allowed in XML -- namely, control characters -- that should be pointed out
09:24:02 <oedipus> SM: IRI can contain control char?
09:24:24 <oedipus> SM: fascinating...
09:26:14 <oedipus> SP: second: if an app is going to use XML Base (is a PER and not a new edition) - diff by the way how apps perform; actually effects normative reqs because if say XML Base is some IRI with "international characters" in them, all URIs in doc effectively become IRIs into bargin (turns all URIs to IRIs) - consuming app must know about IRIs, but can't send over wire; comment: this should be pointed out, can't take existing app and claim use XML Base PER because 
09:26:38 <oedipus> SP: being nice by saying this isn't a PER -- not just clarification; affects normative reqs
09:27:26 <oedipus> SP: next comment: what XML Base actually applies to; URIs everywhere, but take CURIEs -- not URIs; if had attribute for CURIE gets expanded into a URI, so does XML Base apply to it? not clear what allowed to apply
09:27:34 <oedipus> SP: no example using IRI
09:28:18 <oedipus> SP: list of changes - def of URI ref changed from one RFC to another, but couldn't confirm that is the case (RFC 2396 to RFC 2386)
09:28:35 <oedipus> SP: summary: new XML Base just says base URI is IRI - main functional diff
09:28:54 <Roland> http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3987.txt 
09:29:04 <oedipus> RM: RFC 3987 - defines IRIs
09:29:13 <oedipus> RM: RFC 3986 - defines URIs
09:29:16 <Roland> http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3986.txt
09:29:50 <oedipus> SP: wish ietf would use XHTML
09:30:01 <oedipus> GJR: effort to get ietf to do that
09:30:22 <oedipus> SP: looks as if should be pointing to 87 not 86
09:30:50 <oedipus> SP: definition of "legacy IRI" can't find in document
09:31:16 <oedipus> SP: LEIRI (legacy extended IRI)
09:31:50 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/PER-xmlbase-20080320/
09:31:50 <oedipus> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-duerst-iri-bis-02.txt
09:32:01 <oedipus> The syntax of Legacy Extended IRIs is the same as that
09:32:01 <oedipus> for IRIs, except that ucschar is redefined....
09:32:42 <Steven> This PER normatively references the draft of a replacement to RFC 3987 (here called RFC 3987 bis) for the definition of the term Legacy Extended IRI. It will not advance to Recommendation status until the replacement RFC is published, and the reference will be updated accordingly.
09:33:14 <oedipus> SP: do intend to reference LEIRI when ready
09:33:19 <oedipus> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-duerst-iri-bis-02.txt
09:33:47 <oedipus> RM: agree with SP's comments, except think a change too far to be a second edition
09:33:59 <oedipus> SP: consulting minutes of XForms meeting
09:34:32 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/process.html#correction-classes
09:35:15 <oedipus> SP: type 3 - Corrections that MAY affect conformance, but add no new features
09:35:15 <oedipus> These changes MAY affect conformance to the Recommendation. A change that affects conformance is one that:
09:35:15 <oedipus> 1. turns conforming data, processors, or other conforming agents into non-conforming agents, or
09:35:15 <oedipus> 2. turns non-conforming agents into conforming ones, or
09:35:15 <oedipus> 3. clears up an ambiguity or under-specified part of the specification in such a way that an agent whose conformance was once unclear becomes clearly conforming or non-conforming.
09:35:43 <oedipus> RM: correction through extension
09:35:54 <oedipus> RM: waiting for new LEIRI RFC
09:36:18 <oedipus> SP: W3C process does support making XML Base an edited rec
09:36:39 <Steven> Shane: I'm not sure that this makes it legitimate
09:36:48 <oedipus> SM: not sure lends any serious legitimacy - changing normative req which changes conformance
09:36:57 <Steven> ... a conforming app will now not conform
09:37:25 <Steven> "For the third class of change, W3C requires: 
09:37:25 <Steven> Review by the community to ensure the technical soundness of proposed corrections. 
09:37:25 <Steven> Timely publication of the edited Recommendation, with corrections incorporated."
09:37:27 <oedipus> RM: can hand over to w3c legal-lawyers, but in favor of making comment that this goes too far - they can decide if it does or not
09:37:40 <Steven> Rolnad: I would like to comment that we think this is too much for a PER
09:37:52 <Steven> s/Rolnad/Roland/
09:38:11 <oedipus> SM: given what SteveB said about Basic in transition call, this wouldn't pass muster - couldn't do XHTML 1.1 as PER if adding target module - same type of change
09:38:23 <Steven> Shane: We were told we couldn't do XHTML 1.1 as a PER if we were adding the target attribute
09:38:30 <Steven> ... which is a similar change
09:39:06 <oedipus> GJR plus one to roland's comment
09:39:22 <Steven> Steven: Well then we should make that comment
09:39:41 <oedipus> RM: simply say take same view as XForms group, but in addition goes step too far to be considered second edition
09:39:48 <Steven> Roland: I would like to endorse the comments made by the Forms WG, but add this extra comment
09:40:16 <Steven> Shane: Agree
09:40:25 <oedipus> GJR plus 1
09:40:44 <Steven> Yam: I agree
09:41:19 <oedipus> zakim, choose a victim
09:41:19 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Tina
09:41:48 <Steven> ACTION: Roland to send reply on XML Base supporting Forms WG comments, and objecting to PER
09:42:01 <oedipus> rrsagent, draft minutes
09:42:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/17-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
09:42:04 <alessio> +1
09:42:24 <Steven> Topic: XHR review
09:42:43 <Steven> s/Topic: Reviews/Topic: XML Base Review/
09:42:53 <Roland> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jun/0041.html
09:43:11 <Tina> Steven: here only, I hope, 'cause I didn't hear a word on the phone ... :)
09:44:12 <Steven> Shane: I tried to focus our response
09:44:20 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jun/0031.html
09:44:41 <oedipus> "Basically, the XHTML 2 Working Group is concerned that the draft appears
09:44:41 <oedipus> to have a dependency on HTML5. On closer inspection, it is not clear
09:44:41 <oedipus> whether this dependency is completely necessary. Further, linking the
09:44:41 <oedipus> spec to HTML5 will delay its deployment and incorporation into other
09:44:41 <oedipus> languages that have a vested interest in portable scripting (e.g. XHTML
09:44:42 <oedipus> 1, XHTML 2, XForms). Finally, it appears that the dependecy is
09:44:44 <oedipus> slightly backwards, since the requirement is that HTML5's document
09:44:46 <oedipus> "Window" object support the XMLHttpRequest interface. Our request is
09:44:48 <oedipus> that this dependency be removed (or that the connection be made
09:44:50 <oedipus> informative instead of normative) so that all interested constituents
09:44:52 <oedipus> can take advantage of this important interface as soon as possible.
09:44:54 <oedipus> "
09:45:08 <Steven> Shane: iS THIS RESPONSE FROM THE html5 wg?
09:45:11 <Steven> rOLAND: nOT CLEAR
09:45:39 <Steven> s/ iS THIS RESPONSE FROM THE html5 wg?/Is this a response from the HTML5 WG?/
09:46:18 <Steven> s/rOLAND: nOT CLEAR/Roland: Not clear/
09:46:29 <Steven> Gregory: He does tend to respond for himself
09:46:43 <oedipus> deployment by fiat
09:47:43 <oedipus> unhelpful link to public archive provided in AVK response: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapi/
09:48:54 <Steven> Shane: Maybe I wans't clear enough when I talked about incorporating in l;anguages
09:48:59 <Steven> Steven: I think you ewre
09:49:03 <Steven> s/ewre/were/
09:49:15 <Steven> s/wans/wasn/
09:49:29 <oedipus> GJR notes that AVK uses pronoun: "me"
09:51:25 <oedipus> SP: keep up our end of this, and let them do what they want to do
09:51:34 <Steven> s/SP/Tina/
09:51:42 <oedipus> SM: law isn't a sword, but a shield; use process as shield if being attacked
09:52:02 <alessio> yes Steven, I think it's the right thing to do
09:52:21 <Steven> Tina: I think we should follow process
09:52:52 <Steven> ... of course we don't want to aggrevate them, but process is what we use in W3C
09:53:10 <oedipus> RM: need to make clear what is required - can't say "HTML5, figure it out yourself"
09:53:10 <alessio> yes
09:53:25 <Steven> Shane: I don't believe that there are HTML5 concepts that are used by this spec
09:53:40 <Steven> ... and if there are, they should be incorporated into this spec
09:54:09 <Steven> Steven: I don't mind taking the action item to reply
09:54:43 <Steven> Yam: I am curious what the other dependencies are
09:55:02 <Steven> ACTION: Steven to reply to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jun/0041.html
09:55:18 <oedipus> rrsagent, draft minutes
09:55:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/17-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
09:55:54 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2006/appformats/
09:56:10 <ShaneM> http://www.w3.org/News/2008#item107
09:56:15 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/
09:57:08 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/charter/
09:58:55 <Steven> Topic: Transitions
09:59:57 <Steven> Shane: There was a problem, I failed to include the modules in the TR space upload
10:00:15 <Steven> ... which was a decision we made years ago
10:00:33 <Steven> ... but 1.0 points to the TR space
10:01:03 <Steven> ... so that broke languages that use M12N
10:01:20 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jun/0046.html
10:01:43 <Steven> Shane: IanJ says that we should have a fixed datespace version of our modules, even if we want one outside TR space
10:02:13 <Steven> ... we should take that seriously
10:02:20 <Steven> ... and including modules in datespace
10:02:29 <Steven> ... that don't change under people's feet
10:02:57 <Steven> ... Ian offered to help me craft language to address that
10:02:57 <oedipus> plus one to Shane's comment: "On a related note, we should consider making the latest version link for
10:02:57 <oedipus> m12n xhtml-modularization1 so that we can start working on
10:02:57 <oedipus> xhtml-modularization2 and not collide
10:03:33 <Steven> Shane: Do we agree that we should have a version in datespace as well as in markup area
10:03:46 <oedipus> should ensure we continue to have the flexibility to update our implementations as we find problems with them, as SM wrote
10:05:18 <markbirbeck> Sorry guys...I missed that XHR discussion. I have gone further in this over on the XForms list, and the main point that they are now making is that given the 'cross-domain security' stuff is quite important, they don't want to have to define that in multiple places, in case it gets out of sync. They therefore feel that XHR must depend on the HTML 5 Window object.
10:05:38 <Steven> Steven: The reason we moved them out of TR space was to allow us to fix errors quickly, not to change them under people's feet
10:05:41 <Steven> Shane: Right
10:06:00 <markbirbeck> AVK did also say in passing that if we wanted something else, we should write our own. I think that's a good suggestion. :)
10:06:03 <Steven> Shane: We have always been careful about changes we make
10:06:50 <Steven> Shane: I think we should sontinue to have stuff outside of datespace
10:06:57 <Steven> s/sont/cont/
10:07:06 <markbirbeck> Anyway, upshot is that I think any reply from this group should (a) at least consider the points I'm making on the XForms list, and (b) CC the XForms and SVG lists, since they are also saying that there should not be a dependency on Window.
10:07:19 <Steven> Shane: But tell people to use datespace if they need continuity
10:07:25 <markbirbeck> Interruption over.
10:07:37 <Steven> present+MarkB
10:08:19 <Steven> Steven: Sounds fine, it suits both audiences
10:08:27 <oedipus> no objection
10:08:27 <Steven> ... a stable version, and an updated one
10:09:22 <Steven> Shane: I'm willing to draft a policy
10:09:29 <oedipus> yes
10:10:02 <Steven> Shane: And then we should try and work with IanJ to make that a more general policy
10:11:03 <Steven> Shane: What version of modules should our markup languaes refer to
10:11:19 <Steven> s/to/to?/
10:11:28 <Steven> ... the stable version or the updated version
10:11:44 <Steven> Shane: XHTML Basic 1.0 did it wrong
10:11:57 <Steven> ... and used a wrong version of the modules
10:12:09 <Steven> ... which we couldn't fix quickly
10:12:29 <Steven> Yam: Sorry about that
10:13:09 <Steven> ... (I was an editor of that spec)
10:14:19 <Steven> Steven: One option is to do the same with drivers as with modules
10:14:45 <Steven> ... a link to a stable version, and a link to a 'corrected' version
10:15:02 <Steven> Shane: In earlier versions we had a version by reference, and a 'flattened'version
10:15:07 <Steven> ... maybe harder with Schemas
10:15:30 <Steven> s/version/ version/
10:15:55 <Steven> Shane: So the latest version would be in markup space?
10:16:01 <Steven> Steven: Yes
10:16:55 <Steven> ... we could mirror the errata document with a DTD
10:17:23 <Steven> ... that is later rolled into a datespaced version when the errata are rolled into the spec
10:18:10 <Steven> Yam: I prefer to refer to a datespaced version, for safety
10:18:18 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2000/12/REC-xhtml-basic-20001219-errata
10:19:13 <oedipus> 20081219 datestamp
10:19:25 <oedipus> s/20081219/20001219
10:19:36 <oedipus> Known errors: None at this time.
10:19:48 <Steven> Shane: I think that what we did before was wrong, and datespacing is the correct solution
10:20:02 <Steven> Shane: Another question
10:20:05 <Steven> ... shortnames
10:20:24 <Steven> ... Gregory, you said we should introduce a new shortname
10:20:29 <oedipus> GJR: yes, should do NOW
10:22:11 <Steven> Steven: So M12N refers to the latest version, M12N-2 explicitely refers to V2, and then M12N-1 points to the originbal version
10:22:14 <Steven> Shane: Yes
10:22:18 <oedipus> amen
10:22:38 <Steven> s/bal/al/
10:23:16 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2005/05/tr-versions
10:23:46 <Steven> Steven: This covers the case
10:23:52 <Steven> Shane: We should just do it
10:24:04 <Steven> [General agreement]
10:24:23 <Steven> ACTION: Shane to organise new shortname(s) with IanJ
10:24:38 <oedipus> no anchor, but www.w3.org/2005/05/tr-versions addresses short names in "3.2 Latest Version URI Syntax and Short Names"
10:25:33 <Steven> Topic: CURIEs last call comments
10:25:38 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minuites
10:25:38 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minuites', oedipus.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
10:25:42 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
10:25:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/17-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
10:26:31 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-curie-20080506/
10:26:53 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-xml-cg/2008Jun/0004.html
10:27:13 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2008AprJun/0033.html
10:29:25 <ShaneM> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/CURIE?user=guest;statetype=-1;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
10:29:26 <Steven> Shane: We had three comments to the mailing list
10:29:37 <Steven> Steven: Plus the one above to XML CG
10:30:03 <Steven> Shane: The above links to all comments, including old ones we have already dealt with
10:30:10 <Steven> ... look for the three with no resolutions
10:30:13 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/CURIE?id=8037;user=guest;statetype=-1;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
10:30:22 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/CURIE?id=8039;user=guest;statetype=-1;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
10:30:28 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/CURIE?id=8040;user=guest;statetype=-1;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
10:30:36 <Steven> Shane: 8037 is just editorial, he's right, accept
10:30:53 <Steven> Shane: 8039
10:30:58 <Steven> ... from XForms
10:31:37 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2008AprJun/0041.html
10:31:58 <Steven> Steven: They have use cases where they will use CURIEs
10:32:05 <oedipus> "In XForms, one candidate for use of CURIE is the appearance attribute, which is presently defined as a union of three enumeration values (minimal, compact, full) with the the set of qualified-names containing colons (qname-but-not-ncname)."
10:32:05 <Steven> ... like @appearance
10:32:35 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2002/xforms/vocab
10:32:56 <oedipus> quote: So we suggest normative text be added: "An XML Application SHOULD use namespace prefixes to define CURIE prefixes."
10:33:27 <oedipus> "However, not all XML Applcications are namespace-aware so it should not be required to use namespace prefixes to define CURIE prefixes."
10:33:27 <Steven> Shane: These are great comments, which we should accept
10:33:38 <Steven> [Agreement]
10:33:47 <Steven> Shane: 8040
10:33:53 <oedipus> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/CURIE?id=8040;user=guest;statetype=-1;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
10:34:04 <Steven> Shane: This is a personal comment, not fromt he TAG
10:34:22 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2008AprJun/0033.html
10:34:54 <oedipus> "I would have taken the lexical space of CURIE to be the QName like syntactic form and the value space to be aligned with that of xsd:anyURI. Being told that the lexical space of CURIE is IRI is confusing (to me at least)."
10:35:28 <oedipus> "However, CURIEs in XML attribute values inherit all the problems of QNames in attribute values in terms of a processors access to prefix mappings and the associated scoping issues. In what way are CURIE's designed to be more suitable as attribute values than QNames? ie. are they subject to the same cautions as QNames in content - and if not why not?"
10:36:46 <Steven> Shane: QNames have been shoehorned into attributes, that they weren't designed for
10:37:38 <Steven> ... in contrast, CURIEs are never treated as tuples, but as IRIs
10:38:04 <Steven> ... parsers and the DOM won't expand them automatically
10:39:08 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/56
10:39:42 <oedipus> tag on CURIE: http://www.w3.org/2008/04/curie.html
10:40:31 <Steven> Steven: Maybe use an analogy with how relative URIs are treated in the DOM
10:41:01 <Steven> Shane: I do agree that CURIEs have the same scoping problem as QNames
10:41:13 <Steven> ... and I don't think we pretend to have solved those problems
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10:44:43 <markbirbeck> But we open up the possibility of using other ways to create prefixes in the future.
10:44:59 <oedipus> Section 2: Usage "CURIEs can be used in exactly the same syntactic way QNames have been used in attribute values, with the modification that the format of the strings after the colon is looser. In all cases a parsed CURIE will produce an IRI. However, the process of evaluating involves replacing the CURIE with a concatenation of the value represented by the prefix and the part after the colon (the reference)."
10:45:00 <markbirbeck> So *one* of our techniques suffers from the same problem as QNames.
10:45:12 <markbirbeck> But that doesn't mean CURIEs will *always* suffer form the same problem.
10:45:22 <oedipus> "Note that if CURIEs are to be used in the context of scripting, accessing a CURIE via standard mechanisms such as the XML DOM will return the lexical form, not its value as IRI. In order to develop portable applications that evaluate CURIEs, a script author must transform CURIEs into their value as IRI before evaluating them (e.g., dereferencing the resulting IRI or comparing two CURIEs)."
10:45:25 <Steven> Roland: Do we need to say anything about converting from IRIs to URIs?
10:45:35 <Steven> Steven: I think the IRI spec covers that
10:46:23 <oedipus> Section 2.2 - http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-curie-20080506/#sec_2.2.
10:46:31 <Steven> Roland: This spec shouldn't use URIs anywhere then
10:46:46 <oedipus> "The concatenation of the prefix value associated with a CURIE and its reference MUST be an IRI (as defined by the IRI production in [IRI]). Note that while the set of IRIs represents the lexical space of a CURIE, the value space is the set of URIs (IRIs after canonicalization - see [IRI])."
10:48:26 <Steven> Roland: Is this another improvement over QNames?
10:48:41 <Steven> Shane: I think QNames allow IRIs too (they use AnyURI)
10:49:18 <oedipus> current abstract: "The aim of this document is to outline a syntax for expressing URIs in a generic, abbreviated syntax. While it has been produced in conjunction with the XHTML 2 Working Group, it is not specifically targeted at use by XHTML Family Markup Languages. Note that the target audience for this document is Language designers, not the users of those Languages."
10:51:27 <Steven> Steven: He's right, the lexical space is <prefix><colon><whatever>, and the value space is IRI
10:51:34 <Steven> Shane: I need to fix that then
10:52:08 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-curie-20080506/#sec_4.1.
10:52:29 <oedipus> current: "The [SPARQL] language provides a PREFIX keyword for defining the prefix used in their CURIE-like identifiers."
10:52:36 <Steven> Shane: He has a comment about SPARQL
10:52:47 <ShaneM> Host languages MAY define additional constraints on these syntax rules when CURIES are used in the context of those host languages. Host languages MUST NOT relax the constraints defined this specification.
10:54:14 <oedipus> SPARQL 4.1.1. - http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-rdf-sparql-query-20080115/#QSynIRI
10:55:02 <oedipus> "The PREFIX keyword associates a prefix label with an IRI. A prefixed name is a prefix label and a local part, separated by a colon ":". A prefixed name is mapped to an IRI by concatenating the IRI associated with the prefix and the local part. The prefix label or the local part may be empty. Note that SPARQL local names allow leading digits while XML local names do not."
10:55:17 <Steven> Steven: SPARQL needs QNames as much as RDFa does
10:55:23 <markbirbeck> Shane...what was the link that Ivan sent us about some language using CURIEs? Should we reference that in our illustrations?
10:55:26 <Steven> ... predicates can be any URI in RDF
10:55:46 <Steven> ... and SPARQL needs to search for them
10:55:51 <markbirbeck> (I think it was rules-related. RulesML, or something?)
10:56:57 <oedipus> "The set of RDF terms defined in RDF Concepts and Abstract Syntax includes RDF URI references while SPARQL terms include IRIs. RDF URI references containing "<", ">", '"' (double quote), space, "{", "}", "|", "\", "^", and "`" are not IRIs. The behavior of a SPARQL query against RDF statements composed of such RDF URI references is not defined."
10:57:53 <Steven> "the RIF group plans to use CURIE-s in their next charter for what they call presentation syntax. This is not a XML based syntax at all, by the way.: 
10:58:22 <Steven> Shane: We should just accept Stuart's comments wholesale
10:58:29 <Steven> [Agreement]
10:58:30 <oedipus> +1
10:58:37 <Roland> +1
10:59:11 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-xml-cg/2008Jun/0004.html
11:00:58 <alessio> +1
11:01:07 <Steven> "When CURIES are used in an XML-based host language, 
11:01:07 <Steven>   prefix values MUST be able to be defined using the 'xmlns:' syntax 
11:01:07 <Steven>   specified in [XMLNAMES]. Such host languages MAY also provide
11:01:07 <Steven>   additional prefix mapping definition mechanisms."
11:01:15 <Steven> Steven: Why do we say that?
11:01:22 <Steven> Shane: For HTML4
11:04:15 <Steven> Steven: Then we should tell authors not to bind the same prefix to different URIs
11:05:26 <Steven> Shane: That's good
11:05:35 <Steven> Shane: Do we need to treat this as a formal comment?
11:05:42 <Steven> Steven: No, we're just being polite
11:06:09 <Steven> ACTION: Steven to reply to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-xml-cg/2008Jun/0004.html
11:06:27 <Steven> Roland: End of session?
11:06:52 <Steven> Steven: So next step is to update the spec and go to CR
11:07:17 <Steven> Shane: I will change the spec
11:07:21 <oedipus> i can plus one (in shane we trust...)
11:07:24 <Steven> Roalnd: Shall we look at it Thursday?
11:07:27 <Steven> Shane: Great idea
11:07:46 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
11:07:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/17-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
11:08:22 <Steven> === BREAK, reconvene in 98 minutes ===
11:08:29 <ShaneM> do people believe this: Note that while the <em>lexical space</em> 
11:08:29 <ShaneM> of a CURIE is as defined in <a href=="#P_curie">curie</a> above,
11:08:29 <ShaneM> the <em>value space</em> is the set of IRIs.
11:08:33 <Steven> === 12:45 UTC ===
11:08:47 <Roland> reconvene at 12:45UTC http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingdetails.html?year=2008&month=6&day=17&hour=12&min=45&sec=0&p1=136&p2=179&p3=215&p4=248&p5=283
11:08:50 <oedipus> a o k
11:08:54 <Steven> +1
11:09:16 <Zakim> -ShaneM
11:09:18 <Zakim> -Steven
11:09:20 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
11:09:38 <Zakim> -yamx
11:09:42 <Zakim> -Tina
11:10:02 <yamx> I will be back home, but I think 90 minutes is enough. See you later.
11:10:36 <ShaneM> and I will be migrating to my office.
11:11:24 <Steven> Those long Tokyo commutes
11:13:30 <alessio> have a good lunch (for me just a sandwich)
11:17:27 <ShaneM> RDFa Syntax is updated.  I will update the CURIE draft later today with all the changes we agreed, and also develop the Dispositiojn of COmments document
11:31:19 <OedipusWrecked> OedipusWrecked has joined #xhtml
11:44:55 <alessio> alessio has left #xhtml
11:59:51 <Zakim> -Roland
11:59:53 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()4:00AM has ended
11:59:54 <Zakim> Attendees were Roland, Steven, Gregory_Rosmaita, Yam, ShaneM, +04670855aaaa, Tina, yamx
12:00:34 <oedipus_laptop> rrsagent, make minutes
12:00:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/17-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus_laptop
12:10:43 <Zakim> Zakim has left #xhtml
12:40:22 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #xhtml
12:40:28 <Steven> zakim, this will be xhtml
12:40:28 <Zakim> ok, Steven; I see IA_XHTML2()4:00AM scheduled to start 280 minutes ago
12:44:03 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()4:00AM has now started
12:44:09 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #xhtml
12:44:10 <Zakim> +Roland
12:44:57 <Zakim> +ShaneM
12:45:08 <Zakim> +Tina
12:45:12 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
12:45:12 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
12:45:14 <Zakim> +Steven
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12:46:42 <Zakim> +??P9
12:46:51 <yamx> Zakim, ??P9 is yamx
12:46:51 <Zakim> +yamx; got it
12:48:04 <Steven> === RESTART ===
12:48:37 <Steven> Topic: Role last call comments
12:48:48 <Roland> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-xhtml-role-20080407/
12:48:54 <Steven> Shane: Did we get any?
12:49:05 <ShaneM> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/RoleAttrib?id=8038;user=guest;statetype=-1;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
12:49:05 <Steven> ... We already replied to the SVG WG
12:49:28 <Steven> Roland: No comment from Al?
12:49:34 <Steven> Shane: You're right
12:50:52 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2008AprJun/0036.html
12:51:02 <Roland> comment from Al Gilman
12:51:22 <ShaneM> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues/RoleAttrib?id=8041;user=guest;statetype=-1;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
12:51:30 <Steven> Shane: issue 8041
12:51:43 <Steven> ... a personal comment he says
12:56:15 <Steven> Shane: He points out that role has a CURIE dependency. Well, he's right
12:57:44 <Steven> ... he wonders what to do with roles that they don't know how to deal with
12:57:50 <Steven> Roland: Ignore it
12:58:03 <Steven> Shane: Or not; follow the URIs and so on
12:59:22 <ShaneM> The working group recognizes that the dependency on CURIEs is a risk, but is aggressively progressing the CURIE specification and are confident that it will become a Recommendation in short order. 
12:59:22 <ShaneM>  
12:59:22 <ShaneM> As to what the ARIA spec should require with regard to processing role values that are CURIES, we have no real recommendation.  It is entirely up to you.
12:59:30 <Steven> Steven: We should reply that yes, there is a dependency and his spec needs to say what to do with unknown values
13:00:24 <ShaneM> The working group recognizes that the dependency on CURIEs is a risk, but is aggressively progressing the CURIE specification and is confident that it will become a Recommendation in short order. 
13:00:24 <ShaneM>  
13:00:24 <ShaneM> As to what the ARIA spec should require with regard to processing role values that are CURIES, we have no real recommendation.  It is entirely up to you.  You could dereference the associated URI and attempt to determine the semantics by examining the RDF at the other end, for example.  RichS has proposed such a thing in the past.
13:00:24 <Steven> ... clearly they need an extension path
13:01:33 <Steven> Steven: Yes, something like that
13:01:54 <Steven> ACTION: Reply to Al in issue 8041
13:02:02 <Steven> ACTION 5=
13:02:16 <Steven> ACTION: Shane to reply to Al in issue 8041
13:02:48 <Steven> Tina: I can live with role, but
13:03:04 <Tina> <div role="paragraph">
13:03:07 <Steven> ... I would like to add that if a naked element fits better, then use that and not the role
13:03:18 <Steven> s/naked/native/
13:04:29 <Steven> Tina: It is better to use semantic elements like p, than add roles to semantic-less elements
13:05:34 <Steven> Shane: Where should we put this?
13:06:20 <Tina> <div class="paragraph">
13:07:00 <Steven> Tina: We need to avoid this sort of misuse
13:08:19 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
13:08:56 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
13:08:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/17-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
13:09:15 <Roland> Insert text into: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-role/#s_role_module_attributes
13:10:45 <Steven> Although the role attribute adds sematnics to an element, authors should be aware that it is preferable to use elements with inherent semantics, such as <p>, rather than layering semantics on a semantically neutral elements, such as <div role="paragraph">
13:11:10 <Steven> Roland: use SHOULD
13:11:16 <oedipus> use elements with native inherit semantics
13:11:18 <alessio> alessio has joined #xhtml
13:11:52 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
13:12:03 <oedipus> s/adds semantics/may be used to add
13:12:08 <alessio> zakim, IPcaller is Alessio
13:12:08 <Zakim> +Alessio; got it
13:12:22 <Steven> Although the role attribute may be used to add semantics to an element, authors SHOULD use elements with inherent semantics, such as <p>, rather than layering semantics on a semantically neutral elements, such as <div role="paragraph">
13:12:40 <oedipus> i can help with ARIA examples of proper use of role
13:13:00 <oedipus> have role="math" ARIA examples positive and negative
13:16:18 <Steven> Shane: So next step is a new draft, and review later this week for CR
13:18:00 <Steven> zakim, mute alessio
13:18:00 <Zakim> Alessio should now be muted
13:18:17 <alessio> sorry
13:18:38 <Steven> Topic: Access
13:18:49 <Roland> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-xhtml-access-20080526/
13:19:02 <Tina> oedipus: please do! :)
13:19:28 <Steven> Roland: Any comments?
13:19:34 <Steven> Shane: I don't think so
13:19:47 <Steven> Steven: A bit worrying
13:19:56 <oedipus> GJR got a verbal thumbs up on Access Module from RichS wearing his UbiWeb hat
13:20:18 <Steven> Tina: I have an initial implementation
13:20:27 <Steven> ... we had no problems, it looks fine!
13:20:41 <Steven> Roland: Since one usage is accessibility
13:20:53 <Steven> ... do WAI say anything about it?
13:21:14 <Steven> Gregory: Our official position (PF) is that we want HTML5 to adopt it
13:22:02 <Steven> Tina: WCAG2 doesn't mention access keys
13:22:17 <Steven> Gregory: Right, but I can record that
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13:23:47 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#keyboard-operation
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13:24:15 <Steven> Tina: I have no objection to going forward
13:24:26 <Lachy> Lachy has joined #xhtml
13:24:45 <alessio> maybe I can revisit (and go on with) my old tests on Access module to put them on the wiki
13:25:06 <Steven> Steven: If groups are OK, then we should ask them for positive statements so we can point to proof of review
13:27:13 <Steven> Steven: XForms says: 
13:27:15 <Steven> Further, a host language must provide a way to indicate overall navigation order among form controls and other elements included in the host language, as well as keyboard or direct access navigation to specific elements. One such proposal is to uses a pair of attributes named navindex and accesskey, defined as follows:
13:28:05 <oedipus> GJR: will submit access module example to wcag20 - http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/TECHS-SUBMIT/
13:28:35 <oedipus> tina, any other WCAG2 comments or observations, please let me know (email if you prefer: oedipus@hicom.net)
13:28:45 <Steven> Steven: So XForms doesn't provide a native acceskey 
13:29:00 <Steven> ACTION: Steven to ask XForms to send a comment
13:29:19 <Tina> oedipus: I'm working on some comments actually ... in particularly when it comes to the blinking/refresh bit.
13:29:27 <Steven> ACTION: Gregory to get positive review from Ubiquitous web apps
13:29:57 <Steven> Roland: What about SVG?
13:30:53 <Steven> Shane: The real value of access is in combination with XML Events
13:30:58 <Steven> Steven: And role
13:30:59 <oedipus> agree that plus XML Events is better, but what we have is better than accesskey
13:31:45 <Steven> Shane: And the ability of defining a sequence of landing points is powerful
13:33:38 <Zakim> -Alessio
13:34:53 <alessio_> alessio_ has joined #xhtml
13:35:21 <Zakim> +??P13
13:35:30 <alessio_> zakim, P13 is Alessio
13:35:30 <Zakim> sorry, alessio_, I do not recognize a party named 'P13'
13:35:35 <alessio_> zakim, ??P13 is Alessio
13:35:35 <Zakim> +Alessio; got it
13:35:49 <oedipus> tina, your type of feedback is desperately needed - and comment on the usability, too, if you care to
13:35:57 <Steven> Steven: I have sent the message to the Forms WG
13:36:25 <Tina> oedipus: going to comment, yeah ... just having abit of a time squeeze. We're working on getting a preliminary implementation of WCAG 2 in siteSifter by the 30th.
13:39:21 <Steven> Steven: Mayeb we can mention it at the HCG this week
13:39:31 <oedipus> tina, wcag20's strong point are the techniques documents - my favorite is technique C7 (overflow to provide longer link text but display only "read more..."
13:39:58 <Steven> Topic: Putting the specs together
13:40:41 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008Jun/att-0048/nameFromProposal.html#implementation
13:40:54 <oedipus> proposed text in above attachment
13:41:18 <Steven> Roland: So what is happening in this whole area?
13:41:33 <Steven> ... what more do we need to do?
13:41:53 <Steven> Shane: We have an interesting dependency on the ARIA activity
13:42:10 <oedipus> GJR: there is the high ground that implementors should not treat the "Status of this Document" verbiage as boilerplate - that is what FF did
13:42:34 <Steven> ... we should strongly advocate ARIA
13:43:00 <oedipus> if it isn't easy to author, it will fail utterly
13:43:07 <Steven> Roland: There are only a hald dozen browser implementors vs thousands and millions of authors
13:43:14 <Steven> s/hald/half/
13:44:09 <oedipus> GJR would like to use ARIA to promote Role, but the HTML5 integration impasse is preventing that
13:44:10 <Steven> Shane: I don;t think there is anything else we should do, except putting them together in one markup language
13:45:01 <oedipus> RWAB (Rich Web Application Backplane) - if those libraries are aria enabled, then the battle is half-won
13:45:19 <alessio_> sure, gregory
13:45:24 <Steven> Steven: There is the issue of abstract or intent-oriented events
13:45:34 <Steven> ... but I believe the Backplane XG owns those now
13:45:47 <Steven> yay!
13:46:14 <Steven> === Break til top of hour ====
13:46:15 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
13:46:16 <Zakim> -ShaneM
13:46:21 <Zakim> -Steven
13:46:23 <Zakim> -yamx
13:46:25 <Zakim> -Alessio
13:46:28 <Zakim> -Tina
13:56:11 <oedipus> tina, http://www.w3.org/TR/UAAG20/#principle-operable - also, i have logged additional verbiage for definition of input configuration to include the Access Module
13:57:49 <Tina> oedipus: *nods* Goodie.
13:59:37 <Steven> woohoo
14:00:17 <alessio_> gregory, I tried to aria-enable (with aria-live attribute) the google rss reader
14:00:32 <oedipus> yeah? can i test?
14:01:06 <alessio_> sure, I have still to working on ;)
14:01:37 <oedipus> making twitter tweet: http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/?p=65
14:01:38 <alessio_> http://labs.iwa.it/apps/googlefeed/
14:01:44 <oedipus> thanks!
14:01:54 <Zakim> +ShaneM
14:02:02 <oedipus> interesting stuff about ARIA at http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/
14:02:03 <alessio_> done the same with a my experiment with twitter... LOL
14:02:14 <oedipus> great minds think alike!
14:03:20 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
14:03:20 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:03:21 <Zakim> +Steven
14:03:44 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
14:04:00 <Zakim> +??P5
14:04:04 <Zakim> +??P7
14:04:09 <alessio_> zakim, ??P5 is Alessio
14:04:09 <Zakim> +Alessio; got it
14:04:46 <Zakim> + +46.7.08.55.aaaa
14:05:06 <Tina> zakim, ??aaa is Tina
14:05:06 <Zakim> sorry, Tina, I do not recognize a party named '??aaa'
14:05:16 <yamx> Zakim,??P7 is yamx
14:05:16 <Zakim> +yamx; got it
14:05:21 <Steven> zakim, aaaa is Tina
14:05:21 <Zakim> +Tina; got it
14:05:27 <Tina> Ah. Thanks, Steven.
14:07:52 <Steven> zakim, mute alessio
14:07:52 <Zakim> Alessio should now be muted
14:08:16 <ShaneM> XHTML Role Candidate Rec draft is up at http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/CR-xhtml-role-20080630/
14:08:16 <Steven> Topic: XFrames
14:08:23 <Steven> ack al
14:08:43 <alessio_> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/Tests
14:08:44 <Steven> Alessio: I have just published the page with my tests
14:09:39 <Steven> ... It is useful to link inside Frames
14:10:23 <alessio_> http://labs.iwa.it/xhtml2/test-frames-1.xml#src(f1=http://labs.iwa.it/blog/,f2=http://labs.iwa.it/)
14:10:26 <Steven> Alessio: If you go to the link above
14:10:33 <Steven> ... and follow the link to the test
14:11:19 <Steven> ... you will see a simple example
14:12:04 <Steven> ... we want object and iframe to be identical
14:12:44 <Steven> Note that http://labs.iwa.it/xhtml2/test-frames-1.xml#src(f1=http://labs.iwa.it/,f2=http://labs.iwa.it/) works too
14:12:59 <alessio_> #src()
14:13:06 <alessio_> #frames()
14:13:38 <Steven> Alessio: object doesn't allow dynamic changes, only iframe
14:14:31 <Steven> ... so I had to do some extra work
14:15:34 <Steven> ... FF3 has an interesting difference, since object does work dynamically
14:15:56 <alessio_> document.getElementById('f2').data = "someurl"
14:16:17 <Steven> Alessio: this works in FF3, but not in others
14:17:14 <Steven> ... so I have to change the content of object to get it to work
14:17:22 <Steven> ... on the fly
14:18:42 <Steven> Roland: So our aim is to make a collection of objects and iframes to make bookmarking of collections possible
14:18:54 <Steven> ... and get it to work in current browsers
14:20:40 <Steven> ... the issue of security is of course of utmost importnace
14:20:47 <Steven> s/nace/ance/
14:23:02 <Steven> Roland: If we can achieve the effect within XHTML, do we need XFrames as well?
14:23:17 <Steven> Steven: I don't think so; the requirements have been met
14:27:10 <oedipus> q+
14:30:02 <oedipus> iframe navigation is a product of AT support -- most ATs have support for IFRAME disabled by default
14:30:22 <Steven> Alessio: There is a problem that object doesn't receive focus
14:30:36 <oedipus> depending on content of IFRAME, it may or may not be accessible to an AT, because AT has to force focus to the IFRAME
14:31:10 <Steven> Steven: On Safari I don't seem to be able to give either focus
14:31:39 <Steven> Gregory: Most assistive technologies disable iframes
14:32:03 <alessio_> steven, are you on a mac?
14:32:13 <Steven> no, I have safari on Windows
14:32:28 <oedipus> q-
14:32:31 <Steven> Alessio: Safari on a Mac is different
14:33:08 <Steven> Gregory: Aria adds support for iframes
14:33:56 <Steven> Gregory: Only expensive screen readers support iframe
14:34:13 <Steven> Roland: Isn't that just a question of time?
14:34:27 <Steven> Gregory: Yes, and ARIA will improve things
14:35:32 <oedipus> need native support for resizing in IFRAME
14:35:51 <Steven> Tina: The screen size thing is only addressable with teaching
14:36:00 <Steven> ... authors must learn not to make assumptions
14:36:49 <Steven> Roland: Lots of sites hardwire the width
14:36:53 <Steven> Steven: Yes
14:38:32 <Steven> Roland: But they don't have to
14:38:45 <Steven> ... Alessio, your page adapts to the width
14:39:10 <oedipus> ARIA won't address user control over size of viewport (amount of scrolling necessary) - not scaling, but resizing
14:40:37 <Steven> Tina: The problem isn't 100%, but 810px etc
14:41:01 <Steven> ... if you tirn off CSS< you shouldn't lose information
14:41:06 <Steven> s/</,/
14:41:14 <Steven> s/tirn/turn/
14:41:48 <alessio_> we can also add width="50%" height="50%"
14:42:29 <Steven> Roland: I'm not sure of the difficulties for accessibility with iframe
14:42:36 <Steven> ... it can clearly be resized
14:45:25 <Steven> Tina: The main problem is the containment of one document in another
14:45:56 <Steven> ... such as focus moving between documents
14:46:03 <Steven> ... what does the access key refer to?
14:46:14 <Steven> ... the contained or the container?
14:47:25 <Steven> Roland: Isn't it the same problem with two Googlemaps in two divs?
14:47:32 <Steven> ... which zoom control do I get?
14:47:42 <Steven> Tina: Same problem, yes
14:47:59 <Steven> ... but the combination has to be defined
14:48:16 <oedipus> GJR +1 to tina's point about cascade order of UI between embedded document and document into which it is embedded - need to be defined
14:48:26 <Steven> Roland: These problems are inherent to mashups
14:49:03 <alessio_> contentWindow.location
14:49:05 <Steven> Alessio: with iframe you can;t get to the parent document
14:49:39 <Steven> s/;/'/
14:51:29 <Steven> Tina: I woukld prefer mashups being done on the server, but I agree we have to define the effect
14:51:45 <Steven> Roland: What are the problems we need to solve?
14:51:52 <oedipus> that is what i am going to ask on the w3c-wai-ua list
14:52:10 <oedipus> what are the problems as of today
14:52:56 <Steven> Roland: Compound documents are a fact of life
14:53:09 <Steven> ... we should support them in some sort of framework
14:54:33 <Steven> Tina: I prefer combinations to be done on the server, to simplify the client
14:54:43 <Steven> Steven: Why does it matter as long as the effect is the same?
14:55:02 <alessio_> example with google feed reader: http://labs.iwa.it/xhtml2/test-frames-1.xml#src(f1=http://labs.iwa.it/blog/,f2=http://labs.iwa.it/apps/googlefeed/)
14:56:56 <Steven> Steven: Take XForms, which can be implemented equally on the server or the client
14:57:13 <Steven> ... as long as it appears the same for the author and the user, it should be OK
14:58:39 <Steven> Roland: We want to make it as easy as possible for the author to achieve the effects needed
14:58:50 <Steven> ... we should keep that in mind
15:02:04 <Steven> Roland: Why does your example only workj in 2 browsers?
15:02:11 <Steven> s/j//
15:02:38 <Steven> Alessio: IE needs transformation, it doesn't read the XML right
15:02:56 <Steven> ... Opera doesn't recognise the object
15:03:39 <Zakim> -Alessio
15:03:56 <alessio_> sorry, I'm reconnecting
15:04:14 <Steven> Steven: On my Opera it is the object that is working, and the iframe not
15:04:43 <alessio_> let me see
15:05:19 <Steven> Roland: Anyone looked at OpenAjax? They are using iframes
15:05:30 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:05:33 <Steven> gregory: Yes, they are using ARIA, but I will look more
15:05:44 <Steven> zakim, [IP is Alessio
15:05:52 <Zakim> +Alessio; got it
15:05:56 <alessio_> thx steven
15:08:27 <Steven> Yam: What is the definition of the bookmark?
15:10:19 <Steven> [discussion]
15:10:25 <Steven> Roland: AOB?
15:10:53 <Steven> Topic: AOB
15:11:07 <Zakim> -Alessio
15:11:25 <Steven> Shane: In the CURIE comments, the Forms comments asked for something I missed
15:11:43 <Zakim> +??P31
15:11:52 <alessio_> zakim, ??P31 is Alessio
15:11:52 <Zakim> +Alessio; got it
15:12:21 <Steven> ... that XML languages that don't use namespaces shouldn't be required to use xmlns
15:12:34 <Steven> ... so I have changed the language to fix that
15:12:35 <oedipus> sounds good shane
15:12:39 <Steven> ... CURIE draft today
15:12:46 <Steven> [ADJOURN]
15:12:58 <Zakim> -ShaneM
15:12:59 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
15:12:59 <Zakim> -Steven
15:13:01 <Zakim> -yamx
15:13:01 <Zakim> -Roland
15:13:02 <Zakim> -Tina
15:13:02 <Zakim> -Alessio
15:13:03 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()4:00AM has ended
15:13:05 <Zakim> Attendees were Roland, ShaneM, Tina, Steven, yamx, Gregory_Rosmaita, Alessio, +46.7.08.55.aaaa, [IPcaller]
15:13:07 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
15:13:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/17-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
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