IRC log of rif on 2008-06-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:39:56 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:39:56 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/06/17-rif-irc
14:40:04 [ChrisW]
zakim, this will be rif
14:40:04 [Zakim]
ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 20 minutes
14:40:26 [ChrisW]
Meeting: RIF Telecon 17-Jun-08
14:40:26 [ChrisW]
Chair: Chris Welty
14:41:02 [ChrisW]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Jun/0076.html
14:41:16 [ChrisW]
ChrisW has changed the topic to: 17 Jun Telecon Agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Jun/0076.html
14:41:31 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:41:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/17-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
14:49:35 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Admin
14:49:42 [ChrisW]
zakim, clear agenda
14:49:42 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
14:49:44 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Admin
14:49:58 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Liason
14:50:03 [ChrisW]
agenda+ F2F11
14:50:08 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Action Review
14:50:14 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Casting
14:50:20 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Publication plan
14:50:25 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Mime type
14:50:29 [ChrisW]
agenda+ AOB
14:51:00 [ChrisW]
zakim, take up item 1
14:51:00 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW]
14:51:07 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make logs public
14:55:17 [mdean]
mdean has joined #rif
15:01:15 [LeoraMorgenstern]
LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
15:01:49 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:01:54 [Zakim]
+[NRCC]
15:01:55 [Zakim]
+LeoraMorgenstern
15:01:56 [StellaMitchell]
StellaMitchell has joined #rif
15:02:11 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
15:02:15 [Harold]
zakim, [NRCC] is me
15:02:15 [Zakim]
+Harold; got it
15:02:23 [AdrianP]
AdrianP has joined #rif
15:02:32 [DaveReynolds]
DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:02:33 [ChrisW]
zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:02:33 [Zakim]
+ChrisW; got it
15:02:39 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:02:40 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Harold, LeoraMorgenstern, ChrisW
15:03:13 [Zakim]
+Mike_Dean
15:03:22 [Zakim]
+??P26
15:03:28 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
15:04:10 [ChrisW]
Scribe: Mike_Dean
15:04:30 [StellaMitchell]
zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:04:30 [Zakim]
+StellaMitchell; got it
15:04:32 [ChrisW]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Jun/att-0042/10-June-2008-rif-minutes.html
15:04:49 [ChrisW]
PROPOSED: Accept last week's minutes
15:04:52 [Harold]
+1
15:04:57 [ChrisW]
RESOLVED: Accept last week's minutes
15:04:58 [mdean]
+1
15:05:09 [Zakim]
+AdrianP
15:05:22 [mdean]
Harold: no agenda item about equality
15:05:27 [ChrisW]
Agenda+ EQuality
15:05:27 [AdrianP]
Zakim, who is me?
15:05:28 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, AdrianP.
15:05:35 [AdrianP]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:05:36 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Harold, LeoraMorgenstern, ChrisW, Mike_Dean, DaveReynolds, StellaMitchell, AdrianP
15:05:42 [AdrianP]
Zakim, mute me
15:05:48 [Zakim]
AdrianP should now be muted
15:05:49 [mdean]
s/EQuality/Equality
15:05:59 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:06:08 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:06:18 [AdrianP]
Zakim, unmute me
15:06:18 [Zakim]
AdrianP should no longer be muted
15:06:46 [mdean]
Adrian: HCLS interested in liaison with RIF
15:06:53 [mdean]
... on use cases
15:07:24 [mdean]
Adrian will be liaison
15:07:34 [ChrisW]
next agendum
15:07:35 [AdrianP]
Zakim, mute me
15:07:35 [Zakim]
AdrianP should now be muted
15:08:41 [mdean]
confusion due to Chris's travel constraints - need to meet 1 day on weekend - Eastern US
15:08:52 [mdean]
early September or late August
15:08:53 [Zakim]
+Gary_Hallmark
15:09:23 [mdean]
need all editors to attend
15:09:37 [ChrisW]
next agendum
15:09:39 [Zakim]
-Gary_Hallmark
15:09:46 [mdean]
... Axel can't attend proposed dates
15:09:49 [mdean]
still working on dates
15:09:55 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:09:55 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Harold, LeoraMorgenstern, ChrisW, Mike_Dean, DaveReynolds, StellaMitchell, AdrianP (muted)
15:10:31 [Zakim]
+Gary_Hallmark
15:10:35 [ChrisW]
ACTION-524: closed
15:10:35 [trackbot]
ACTION-524 Start the wiki page for the active members of the WG notes added
15:10:35 [trackbot]
If you meant to close ACTION-524, please use 'close ACTION-524'
15:10:47 [ChrisW]
ACTION-524: completed
15:10:47 [trackbot]
ACTION-524 Start the wiki page for the active members of the WG notes added
15:11:11 [ChrisW]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Regular_attendees
15:12:09 [mdean]
text for acknowledgments section
15:13:08 [mdean]
... contributors, chairs, regular WG attendees
15:13:52 [AdrianP]
action-523 is done
15:14:11 [conan]
conan has joined #rif
15:14:50 [mdean]
Harold: some updates from Michael to BLD
15:14:54 [ChrisW]
conan, who are you?
15:15:06 [MichaelKifer]
MichaelKifer has joined #rif
15:15:16 [conan]
ah sorry
15:15:23 [Harold]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:15:23 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Harold, LeoraMorgenstern, ChrisW, Mike_Dean, DaveReynolds, StellaMitchell, AdrianP (muted), Gary_Hallmark
15:15:30 [markproctor]
irc automatically uses my default irc nick name, sorry.
15:15:56 [Zakim]
+??P0
15:16:03 [Zakim]
+Mark_Proctor
15:16:11 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, ??PO is me
15:16:11 [Zakim]
sorry, MichaelKifer, I do not recognize a party named '??PO'
15:16:25 [markproctor]
my phone is on mute, so shouldn't be me.
15:16:43 [Harold]
Hi Michael?
15:16:57 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, PO is me
15:16:57 [Zakim]
sorry, MichaelKifer, I do not recognize a party named 'PO'
15:17:09 [ChrisW]
zakim, ??P0 is MichaelKifer
15:17:09 [Zakim]
+MichaelKifer; got it
15:18:24 [mdean]
ChrisW: change editor's notes to at risk notes
15:20:12 [ChrisW]
action: make sure DTB discusses URI base directive
15:20:12 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - make
15:20:20 [ChrisW]
action: Chris make sure DTB discusses URI base directive
15:20:20 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-526 - Make sure DTB discusses URI base directive [on Christopher Welty - due 2008-06-24].
15:21:39 [mdean]
Michael: BLD doesn't use any duration subtypes
15:21:57 [mdean]
... should reference DTB
15:25:39 [mdean]
ChrisW: list datatypes in BLD (fixed) with pointer to DTB
15:25:52 [mdean]
Michael: OK - no duration
15:26:15 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:26:15 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "Casting" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:26:39 [mdean]
discussion on email list
15:26:52 [mdean]
... Jos and Axel not here
15:27:09 [mdean]
ChrisW: seemed to reach conclusion
15:27:20 [mdean]
Michael: agree with Jos
15:28:07 [mdean]
s/jos/Jos
15:28:41 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:28:41 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "Publication plan" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:28:46 [mdean]
ChrisW: revisit when everyone here
15:29:31 [mdean]
Harold: BLD pretty good - should finish edits in 2 weeks, extending a week
15:29:46 [mdean]
... need to coordinate with Michael
15:30:06 [mdean]
... metadata throughout - expand both syntaxes and examples
15:30:39 [mdean]
... makes grammars harder to read - perhaps publish with and without
15:31:00 [mdean]
ChrisW: XML syntax is more important than presentation
15:31:25 [mdean]
... BNF
15:32:08 [mdean]
Michael: in mathematical representation as well - first action
15:32:24 [mdean]
Harold: have tested XSD
15:32:35 [mdean]
... would like someone else to try
15:32:48 [mdean]
ACTION on gary to try XSD
15:32:48 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - on
15:32:54 [Harold]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/BLD#Appendix:_XML_Schema_for_RIF-BLD
15:32:58 [Harold]
Especially:
15:33:01 [mdean]
ACTION on GaryHallmark to try XSD
15:33:01 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - on
15:33:04 [ChrisW]
action: Gary to test the XSD examples http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/BLD#Appendix:_XML_Schema_for_RIF-BLD
15:33:04 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-527 - Test the XSD examples http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/BLD#Appendix:_XML_Schema_for_RIF-BLD [on Gary Hallmark - due 2008-06-24].
15:33:06 [Harold]
http://www.jdrew.org/rif/bldLC/
15:33:22 [Harold]
(xsds plus examples)
15:33:33 [ChrisW]
action: Hallmark to test the XSD examples http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/BLD#Appendix:_XML_Schema_for_RIF-BLD
15:33:33 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-528 - Test the XSD examples http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/BLD#Appendix:_XML_Schema_for_RIF-BLD [on Gary Hallmark - due 2008-06-24].
15:34:01 [Harold]
Gary, I used W3C's XSV to test them.
15:34:17 [ChrisW]
action: Michael to add data type list to BLD
15:34:17 [trackbot]
Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - Michael
15:34:17 [trackbot]
Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. mkifer, msintek, merdmann)
15:34:25 [ChrisW]
action: mkifer to add data type list to BLD
15:34:25 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-529 - Add data type list to BLD [on Michael Kifer - due 2008-06-24].
15:34:38 [Harold]
XSV: http://www.w3.org/2001/03/webdata/xsv
15:36:01 [mdean]
Harold: need to use consistent namespaces
15:36:01 [Zakim]
-Gary_Hallmark
15:36:34 [mdean]
Harold: need about 10 days for updates
15:37:08 [mdean]
ChrisW: freeze on July 27
15:37:16 [ChrisW]
BLD: Freeze on 27th
15:37:17 [mdean]
s/freeze/freeze BLD
15:37:26 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:37:26 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Harold, LeoraMorgenstern, ChrisW, Mike_Dean, DaveReynolds, StellaMitchell, AdrianP (muted), MichaelKifer, Mark_Proctor
15:38:27 [mdean]
ChrisW: need someone to review final BLD draft
15:38:30 [LeoraMorgenstern]
I can review
15:38:54 [mdean]
s/draft/draft diffs
15:39:07 [ChrisW]
action: leora to review final BLD LC draft
15:39:07 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-530 - Review final BLD LC draft [on Leora Morgenstern - due 2008-06-24].
15:39:25 [AdrianP]
Zakim, unmute me
15:39:25 [Zakim]
AdrianP should no longer be muted
15:39:34 [AdrianP]
added a Java script which allows hiding the BLD and PRD examples http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/UCR#Use_Cases; the document is now much more compact and the use cases are readable
15:39:36 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, mute me
15:39:36 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:39:50 [mdean]
Adrian: several updates to UCR - JavaScript to hide code examples - now more readable
15:39:59 [AdrianP]
added a very compact (abridged) presentation syntax + some conventions http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/UCR#Use_Cases, close to ISO Prolog standard, but using e.g. <- for both PRD and BLD (to describe them in an independet and interchangeable way)
15:40:04 [mdean]
... new examples of abstract presentation syntax
15:40:18 [mdean]
s/abstract/abridged/
15:40:27 [AdrianP]
reworked the BLD and PRD examples of the use cases as far as possible
15:40:42 [AdrianP]
updated requirements according to our resolutions
15:40:57 [AdrianP]
removed discussion of implications of requirements from the use cases
15:41:10 [mdean]
ChrisW: very nice
15:41:12 [AdrianP]
open issue: examples overflows the right border of the containing box
15:41:30 [AdrianP]
open issue: coordinate with PRD presentation syntax
15:42:12 [Zakim]
+Gary_Hallmark
15:42:44 [GaryHallmark]
GaryHallmark has joined #rif
15:42:45 [mdean]
Adrian: not much to do, but depends on BLD and PRD
15:42:58 [mdean]
s/PRD/PRD finalization
15:43:10 [mdean]
s/much/much more/
15:43:15 [Zakim]
+Christian
15:43:19 [Harold]
Why is '<-' better than ':-'?
15:43:51 [mdean]
Adrian: independent for BLD and PRD
15:44:15 [AdrianP]
the idea is
15:44:18 [AdrianP]
[Actions] <- [Conditions]
15:44:32 [AdrianP]
[Conclusion] <- [Conditions]
15:44:44 [Harold]
Well, PRD actions are not the exact same things as BLD conclusions.
15:44:46 [markproctor]
when LHS then RHS
15:44:57 [mdean]
Christian: production rule community uses LHS (condition) and RHS - reverse will be a problem
15:45:22 [GaryHallmark]
clearly there is no standard, so we can do what we want....
15:45:27 [AdrianP]
[Condition] -> [Actions]
15:45:34 [mdean]
s/RHS/RHS (action)
15:45:50 [AdrianP]
the problem is the -> which is also used in frames
15:45:57 [mdean]
Christian: divergence between LP and PR communities
15:46:06 [GaryHallmark]
we are here in part to bridge the 2 communities
15:46:28 [mdean]
Christian: don't need common presentation syntax that will only confuse either community
15:46:31 [GaryHallmark]
is everyone stupid?
15:46:47 [GaryHallmark]
if we explain what we mean, they will understand
15:47:34 [mdean]
Christian: other community won't use presentation syntax
15:47:38 [Harold]
In the XML syntax we could have something equivalent to -- BLD: if [Conditions] then [Conclusion] vs. PRD: if [Conditions] do [Action]
15:47:43 [MichaelKifer]
+q
15:48:38 [AdrianP]
derivation rules are often written as coditions -> conclusion
15:48:52 [Zakim]
-StellaMitchell
15:49:00 [mdean]
s/coditions/conditions
15:51:00 [mdean]
Christian: would object to non-standard form of negation
15:51:07 [markproctor]
for me this comes from the idea of interchange between production rule and prolog rules. that really only interests fringe use cases, and better solved else where.
15:51:19 [mdean]
Christian: PRD should be basic PR dialect
15:51:28 [AdrianP]
not sure about inflationary semantics for negated procuction rules as unifying semantics. One of the problems with inflationary semantics is that if rule designers don't write the rules carefully, the program winds up asserting certain facts ``too soon,'' that is, using a negated literal (not assumption) that eventually turns out not to be true (i.e., it is of the form NOT p, where p eventually becomes true)
15:51:33 [markproctor]
the way that 'not' and truth maintenance work in production rules has real value to real users.
15:51:34 [mdean]
... all deployed systems use same form of negation
15:52:01 [markproctor]
jess, drools, ilog, opsj every PR system works the say with 'not'.
15:52:16 [Harold]
Christian, also in LP dialects you would normally NEED negation (as failure).
15:52:27 [Harold]
Michael is on the q ;-)
15:52:39 [mdean]
ChrisW: base that can be extended in different implementations
15:52:51 [ChrisWelty]
ChrisWelty has joined #rif
15:53:04 [Harold]
Yet, we are doing a BASIC logic dialect.
15:53:28 [markproctor]
by experimenting with 'not' you refering to those silly non inference sequential engines? ;)
15:53:29 [AdrianP]
just to clarify, I see negation as very important for both logic dialect and production rule dialect
15:54:30 [ChrisWelty]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:54:30 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Harold, LeoraMorgenstern, ChrisW, Mike_Dean, DaveReynolds, AdrianP, MichaelKifer (muted), Mark_Proctor, Gary_Hallmark, Christian
15:54:46 [mdean]
Gary: agree on consensus within PR community
15:54:48 [Harold]
q
15:54:52 [Harold]
q?
15:54:53 [mdean]
... no problems with negation
15:55:08 [mdean]
... for eval, need examples to show utility
15:55:55 [mdean]
... continue to have problems with running example not using presentation syntax (too much like iLog) - artificially difficult to compare to BLD
15:55:59 [AdrianP]
Zakim, mute me
15:55:59 [Zakim]
AdrianP should now be muted
15:56:53 [mdean]
... presentation syntax 95% similar to BLD
15:57:07 [mdean]
... remove formulas off forall
15:57:30 [mdean]
Christian: do not need 1 presentation syntax
15:58:12 [mdean]
Gary: ad hoc syntax
15:58:28 [AdrianP]
but it is good for the user to have one presentation syntax which is used in all RIF documents and show a mapping to the concrete XML serialization
15:58:29 [mdean]
s/syntax/syntax in introduction
15:59:10 [mdean]
Christian: examples should be in presentation syntax if we have one - should translate them
15:59:38 [mdean]
Gary: please put everything in one condition
16:00:59 [mdean]
... use BLD syntax where it's common
16:01:08 [AdrianP]
the objective is to enable interchange
16:01:22 [markproctor]
we talking about this?
16:01:23 [AdrianP]
also between logical rule engines and production rule engines
16:01:24 [markproctor]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/PRD#Syntactic_compatibility_between_RIF-PRD_and_RIF-BLD
16:01:34 [AdrianP]
whenever possible!!!
16:02:06 [AdrianP]
business rules, policies, contract etc. they are often not specific to production rules, logical rules, decision tables etc.
16:02:19 [mdean]
ChrisW: do we need to fix examples before next WD?
16:02:21 [AdrianP]
and we want to describe them in RIF and interchange them
16:04:17 [mdean]
Gary: would take action to update examples in next couple days
16:04:19 [markproctor]
or this? http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/PRD#Running_example
16:04:27 [mdean]
Christian: OK
16:04:28 [ChrisWelty]
action: gary to update PRD examples for next wd
16:04:28 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-531 - Update PRD examples for next wd [on Gary Hallmark - due 2008-06-24].
16:05:05 [ChrisWelty]
action: christian to open issues on PRD as per editors notes
16:05:06 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-532 - Open issues on PRD as per editors notes [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2008-06-24].
16:05:09 [mdean]
Christian: multiple issues marked in PRD - need to open
16:06:10 [mdean]
Christian: OK with <- if we include negation