IRC log of svg on 2008-06-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

10:36:07 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #svg
10:36:07 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/06/12-svg-irc
10:36:09 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
10:36:09 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #svg
10:36:11 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
10:36:11 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
10:36:12 [trackbot]
Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
10:36:12 [trackbot]
Date: 12 June 2008
10:37:19 [ed]
hmm...
10:38:23 [shepazu]
hmmm
10:38:26 [shepazu]
I didn't
10:39:00 [shepazu]
ooops... maybe I didn't send out the correction?
10:39:21 [shepazu]
zakim, room for 7?
10:39:22 [Zakim]
ok, shepazu; conference Team_(svg)10:39Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 60 minutes until 1139Z
10:39:36 [shepazu]
Zakim, this will be SVG
10:39:37 [Zakim]
ok, shepazu; I see Team_(svg)10:39Z scheduled to start now
10:39:49 [shepazu]
guess so
10:40:02 [Zakim]
Team_(svg)10:39Z has now started
10:40:09 [Zakim]
+??P1
10:40:16 [ed]
Zakim, ??P1 is me
10:40:16 [Zakim]
+ed; got it
10:40:43 [Zakim]
+??P2
10:40:51 [anthony]
Zakim, ??P2 is me
10:40:51 [Zakim]
+anthony; got it
10:40:55 [CGI931]
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10:41:03 [Zakim]
+Doug_Schepers
10:46:13 [anthony]
Scribe: anthony
10:46:15 [ed]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0125.html
10:46:32 [anthony]
Chair: Erik Dahlstrom
10:46:33 [leonardr]
(I am STILL waiting for an operator to get me into the system :(
10:46:54 [anthony]
Regrets: Andrew Emmons
10:47:58 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.536.aaaa
10:47:59 [anthony]
Topic: Nuremberg F2F (updated)
10:48:16 [ed]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Nuremburg_F2F_2008
10:48:25 [anthony]
ED: I got some information from Alex
10:48:37 [anthony]
... I added some information to me the meeting wiki page
10:48:59 [anthony]
... Alex said he'd find out more info for network, restaurants etc
10:49:27 [ed]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/19480/svgF2Fnuremburg2008/
10:49:39 [anthony]
... I've also opened up the attendance page
10:50:41 [anthony]
... most of the information has been taken from the SVG Open travel website
10:51:18 [anthony]
Topic: 1.2 Testsuite
10:51:32 [anthony]
AG: I've generated the new testsuite
10:51:42 [anthony]
... which includes the minor Erik made
10:51:52 [anthony]
... I omit three tests
10:52:18 [anthony]
... two of them had zero sided reference images
10:52:26 [anthony]
... struct-use-06-t, struct-use-07-t
10:52:42 [anthony]
... and the third test I omitted is
10:52:44 [anthony]
... struct-common-201-t-debug
10:53:25 [anthony]
ED: with the struct-use ones couldn't we generate the reference images for them
10:53:57 [anthony]
AG: So they were but they had zero sized reference images
10:54:15 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
10:54:19 [heycam]
Zakim, [ is me
10:54:19 [Zakim]
+heycam; got it
10:54:22 [anthony]
... I'm guessing this is still a beta release so we can sort those out next
10:54:28 [anthony]
ED: I see it's still in draft
10:55:18 [anthony]
s/it's/both/
10:55:30 [anthony]
ED: So the next step is for Doug to push the changes out so they become public
10:55:40 [anthony]
DS: I will try to do that today or tomorrow
10:56:08 [anthony]
ED: I guess we should make it known that we published an updated version of the test suite
10:56:23 [anthony]
... might want to make the list of issues that's on the wiki known
10:56:27 [anthony]
AG: I agree
10:56:31 [ed]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Test_Suite_Overview#23_May_2008
10:56:42 [ed]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/View_the_list_of_known_issues
10:56:57 [anthony]
AG: Looks to me some of the require minimal effort to fix
10:57:16 [anthony]
ED: Yes some of them could have images patches for batik to render or png
10:57:39 [anthony]
... the revision numbers could be a bit tedious
10:59:28 [anthony]
ACTION: Doug to publish the SVG test suite, announce its publication and the list of known issues
10:59:28 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2062 - Publish the SVG test suite, announce its publication and the list of known issues [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-06-19].
11:00:14 [anthony]
Topic: SVG in HTML (cont.)
11:00:37 [anthony]
DS: We should finalise this and get it out into the public fairly soon
11:01:12 [anthony]
ED: I was just wondering if there was something left for us to discuss about the mail reply from last time
11:01:26 [anthony]
... just wondering about results and the rework
11:01:59 [anthony]
AG: So I've started converting the slides to HTML
11:02:03 [anthony]
... just haven't finished yet
11:02:07 [anthony]
... where should I commit it
11:02:43 [anthony]
DS: Contact me when you're ready and I'll try to have the structure done for CVS
11:03:40 [anthony]
ED: We can expect to have it in CVS by next week
11:03:42 [anthony]
AG: For sure
11:03:55 [anthony]
Topic: Pending errata items
11:04:02 [anthony]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0069.html
11:04:28 [anthony]
ED: We should go through these
11:04:38 [anthony]
... First one is about HKern
11:04:42 [anthony]
... it's a very minor change
11:05:04 [anthony]
... changing the grammar for the u2 attribute
11:05:08 [anthony]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/errata/errata.xml#hkern_u2_definition_typo
11:05:58 [anthony]
ED: I think most implementations don't treat it as a number
11:06:09 [anthony]
... it is Category 3 because it may change stuff
11:06:22 [anthony]
AG: I don't have any problems with it
11:06:42 [anthony]
CM: I agree
11:07:27 [anthony]
RESOLUTION: We will move the hkern_u2_definition_typo to proposed status
11:07:33 [ed]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/errata/errata.xml#svgtextcontentelement_clarifications
11:08:22 [anthony]
ED: The next one is changing what exceptions we throw
11:08:29 [anthony]
... I also found after writing this
11:08:36 [anthony]
... it's kind of strange
11:09:12 [anthony]
... we have parameters that are unsigned long but for negative numbers they throw exceptions
11:09:30 [anthony]
CM: Seems like an easy thing to change while we are at it
11:09:47 [anthony]
... We should remove the exception
11:09:52 [ed]
http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/text.html#InterfaceSVGTextContentElement
11:09:58 [anthony]
ED: For the text content element they all take unsigned long
11:10:14 [anthony]
CM: For the text interface they take character indexs
11:10:20 [anthony]
... they take unsigned
11:10:41 [anthony]
AG: conclusion
11:10:49 [anthony]
CM: Remove the exception
11:10:58 [anthony]
ED: So what ways is a negative value converted?
11:11:04 [anthony]
... guess it would depend on the unsigned long
11:11:08 [anthony]
... It's fine with me
11:11:31 [anthony]
AG: Are you going to make that change as part of the errata change?
11:11:38 [anthony]
ED: Sure I can do it
11:11:51 [anthony]
... we should probably change all the text methods as well
11:12:02 [anthony]
... so in that case we should keep it in draft for now
11:13:10 [anthony]
... so this will part of ACTION-2010
11:13:20 [anthony]
s/will/will be/
11:13:53 [ed]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/errata/errata.xml#value_spacing_of_keySpline_syntax
11:14:14 [anthony]
ED: So next one is key spline syntax
11:14:16 [anthony]
... action is closed
11:14:21 [anthony]
... but open in the errata file
11:14:51 [anthony]
AG: It doesn't have a category either
11:15:00 [anthony]
ED: It's more a clarification
11:15:31 [anthony]
... I think this is a category 2 because it doesn't impact conformance
11:15:38 [anthony]
... the conformance is already in SMIL
11:16:04 [anthony]
AG: So I can add the category 2 and close the action item
11:16:43 [anthony]
RESOLUTION: Pending the changes to the value_spacing_of_keySpline_syntax we will move this errata item to proposed status
11:17:22 [anthony]
Topic: "keep <script> elements running only once"
11:17:38 [anthony]
ED: This was a thread on the group list
11:18:03 [anthony]
CM: This is me pointing out what Tiny says about script elements
11:18:14 [anthony]
... it's a bit different to what HTML says
11:18:26 [anthony]
... FF and Opera appear to be doing what HTML says
11:18:31 [anthony]
... even for SVG
11:18:39 [anthony]
DS: Is that the desired behavior
11:18:52 [anthony]
CM: I suspect it's that way because that's how things work in HTML
11:18:58 [anthony]
... legacy reasons
11:19:12 [anthony]
... I don't see any issues for using on or the other
11:19:37 [anthony]
... maybe if you wanted to reuse the same script element multiple times then you want to choose the SVG way
11:19:44 [anthony]
... I think it's a pretty minor thing
11:19:51 [anthony]
... not really stopping you from doing anything
11:20:08 [anthony]
... the two major desktop browsers do it that way
11:20:21 [anthony]
ED: I would like to do it the same as HTML
11:20:32 [anthony]
... I would favor us changing it the Tiny spec
11:21:12 [anthony]
... we don't have any test cases on it
11:21:19 [anthony]
... I'd be surprised if people are relying on it
11:21:40 [anthony]
CM: Or if people are relying on it they are probably relying on it working on the HTML way
11:21:50 [anthony]
DS: I'm trying to think of a reason to do it
11:22:02 [anthony]
... yes we should align
11:22:07 [anthony]
... either SVG or HTML
11:22:33 [anthony]
... there are some issues in which HTML should change, this isn't one of them
11:23:08 [anthony]
CM: I think I wouldn't be surprised if there was HTML stuff on it out there that relied on it
11:23:14 [anthony]
... working that way
11:23:27 [anthony]
DS: I'm fine with it changing
11:23:45 [anthony]
ED: Sounds like we all agree to have the spec changed
11:24:36 [anthony]
ACTION: Cameron to fix the spec by aligning the script element behavior with HTMLs script element behavior
11:24:36 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2063 - Fix the spec by aligning the script element behavior with HTMLs script element behavior [on Cameron McCormack - due 2008-06-19].
11:25:18 [anthony]
Topic: ARIA in SVG
11:26:25 [anthony]
DS: Gives some background of ARIA
11:27:52 [anthony]
... There was a big discussion of the syntax that would be used in HTML and SVG for ARIA
11:27:55 [anthony]
... we didn't like it
11:28:06 [anthony]
... but we agreed to use the aria- syntax
11:28:22 [anthony]
CM: From reading things I think that's what I think everyone agreed on
11:28:29 [anthony]
ED: That's what we agreed on
11:28:55 [anthony]
DS: So since that time, on the HTML list and on the appropriate WAI list
11:29:06 [anthony]
... there has been a lot of debate about it and on the TAG
11:29:16 [anthony]
... tried to push the name spaces syntax
11:29:19 [anthony]
... but if you recall
11:29:23 [anthony]
... after you agreed to it
11:29:49 [anthony]
... it was implemented in all 4 browsers some of which are SVG user agents
11:30:06 [anthony]
... this was the aria- syntax implementation
11:30:07 [shepazu]
s/aria-/'aria-*'/
11:30:27 [anthony]
DS: So that TAG tried push name spaces syntax
11:30:50 [anthony]
... and there has been push back from WAI
11:31:46 [anthony]
... somehow it wasn't conveyed to WAI that this is what the SVG WG had agreed on
11:32:14 [anthony]
... I'd like to confirm that we agreed to the "aria-*" syntax
11:33:08 [anthony]
RESOLUTION: SVG will use the "aria-*" syntax for ARIA and tends to publish a module describing its use with the "role" attribute
11:33:32 [anthony]
ED: I found the minutes from the last F2F that we resolved to use the role attribute
11:33:44 [anthony]
... couldn't find the ARIA resolution
11:34:51 [anthony]
ED: I guess this answers all their questions
11:35:01 [anthony]
... were all the questions answered on the coordination call
11:35:46 [anthony]
ACTION: Doug to send an email to WAI and SVG that we agreed on the ARIA resolution
11:35:46 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2064 - Send an email to WAI and SVG that we agreed on the ARIA resolution [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-06-19].
11:36:50 [anthony]
Topic: www-svg feedback
11:37:02 [anthony]
ED: First one is
11:37:04 [anthony]
... ordering of effects with enable-background:new and filter on the same element
11:38:17 [anthony]
AG: So reading the spec it wasn't entirely clear
11:38:46 [anthony]
ED: I agree for the wording on how to generate the background image is not as clear as it could be
11:38:55 [anthony]
AG: Would be nice to have examples of the buffer
11:38:59 [anthony]
... at different stages
11:39:14 [anthony]
ED: We all seem to agree on the result of his example
11:39:55 [anthony]
AG: So I had a play with it and what opera is doing is correct
11:40:29 [anthony]
CM: The way it's written it's a bit unclear on what enable-background applies to
11:42:08 [anthony]
ACTION: Erik to reword the enable-background property example
11:42:08 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2065 - Reword the enable-background property example [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-06-19].
11:42:50 [ed]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Jun/0003.html
11:42:53 [anthony]
http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/filters.html#AccessingBackgroundImage
11:43:31 [anthony]
AG: So it's that bottom bit before the SVG Syntax example (Example enable-background-01) that's a bit confusing
11:44:18 [anthony]
ED: So the next on is
11:44:20 [anthony]
more BackgroundImage/enable-background issues
11:44:20 [ed]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Jun/0007.html
11:45:05 [anthony]
ED: There is nothing really preventing you from doing that
11:45:15 [anthony]
... Batik seems to do what Robert is expecting
11:45:21 [anthony]
... and Opera seems to be clipping
11:46:19 [anthony]
AG: I agree with what Robert is saying and what Batik produces
11:46:25 [anthony]
ED: I think it's a bug in Opera
11:46:35 [anthony]
... Robert is suggesting to remove half of the sentence
11:46:41 [anthony]
... I don't think that's the best way
11:46:55 [anthony]
... I think it would be better to add some extra text saying that
11:47:07 [anthony]
... extending the background image past the viewPort
11:47:10 [anthony]
... is possible
11:47:36 [anthony]
AG: Should we make an errata for this? or will this appear in the module?
11:47:46 [anthony]
ED: My plan was for it to appear in the module
11:48:20 [anthony]
ACTION: Erik to propose wording that clarifies the use of background image outside of the viewPort bounds
11:48:41 [anthony]
ACTION : anthony to add Eriks proposed wording to the Errata. Link to ACTION-2066
11:48:41 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2067 - Add Eriks proposed wording to the Errata. Link to ACTION-2066 [on Anthony Grasso - due 2008-06-19].
11:49:22 [anthony]
ED: The next on is about Question about SVG List replaceItem
11:49:22 [ed]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008May/0043.html
11:50:00 [anthony]
CM: I started to investigate it
11:50:06 [anthony]
... and then ran into a crash in FF
11:50:40 [anthony]
CM: [Explains issue]
11:51:07 [anthony]
... The spec doesn't say where the index is
11:51:12 [anthony]
... before or after the removal
11:51:22 [anthony]
ED: This is about the SVG path seg list
11:51:32 [anthony]
... only effecting the case where you are trying to replace the item in a list
11:51:59 [anthony]
... in the case we have with replace item on the same list
11:52:05 [anthony]
... some weird things happen
11:52:18 [anthony]
CM: So this is why the issues doesn't occur in normal DOM core lists
11:52:32 [anthony]
ED: The spec is not clear on this
11:52:55 [anthony]
... the index doesn't really say if the removal is before or after
11:53:00 [anthony]
... so it's not clear where the item will end up
11:53:12 [anthony]
CM: Do you think we should test different implementations?
11:53:26 [anthony]
ED: I think Opera and Batik are doing different things
11:53:52 [anthony]
... it would be nice to have a few test cases for this
11:54:01 [anthony]
... we should ask him for test cases on this
11:54:21 [anthony]
... we can't resolve it unless we know what implementations are doing
11:56:52 [anthony]
ACTION: Cameron to test the SVG List replaceItem behavior of different implementations and report back
11:56:52 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2068 - Test the SVG List replaceItem behavior of different implementations and report back [on Cameron McCormack - due 2008-06-19].
11:57:54 [ed]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008May/0033.html
11:57:57 [anthony]
ED: So the next one is
11:57:59 [anthony]
... Resolving IRIs for resource documents in SVG Tiny 1.2
11:58:44 [anthony]
AG: Looks a bit like an optimisation
11:59:06 [anthony]
CM: I think it's a reasonable thing to bring up
11:59:45 [anthony]
... maybe you can rely on caching to see if there is redirect still
12:00:11 [anthony]
ED: I'm not sure either
12:02:18 [anthony]
AG: Perhaps this is something we can come back to or discuss over email
12:02:35 [Zakim]
-Doug_Schepers
12:02:38 [Zakim]
-ed
12:02:40 [Zakim]
-heycam
12:02:41 [Zakim]
- +1.408.536.aaaa
12:02:43 [Zakim]
-anthony
12:02:43 [Zakim]
Team_(svg)10:39Z has ended
12:02:44 [Zakim]
Attendees were ed, anthony, Doug_Schepers, +1.408.536.aaaa, [IPcaller], heycam
12:04:03 [anthony]
Zakim, bye
12:04:03 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #svg
12:04:19 [anthony]
RRSAgent, make minutes
12:04:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/12-svg-minutes.html anthony
12:04:21 [ChrisL]
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