10:36:07 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg
10:36:07 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/06/12-svg-irc
10:36:09 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
10:36:11 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
10:36:11 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
10:36:12 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
10:36:12 <trackbot> Date: 12 June 2008
10:37:19 <ed> hmm...
10:38:23 <shepazu> hmmm
10:38:26 <shepazu> I didn't
10:39:00 <shepazu> ooops... maybe I didn't send out the correction?
10:39:21 <shepazu> zakim, room for 7?
10:39:22 <Zakim> ok, shepazu; conference Team_(svg)10:39Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 60 minutes until 1139Z
10:39:36 <shepazu> Zakim, this will be SVG
10:39:37 <Zakim> ok, shepazu; I see Team_(svg)10:39Z scheduled to start now
10:39:49 <shepazu> guess so
10:40:02 <Zakim> Team_(svg)10:39Z has now started
10:40:09 <Zakim> +??P1
10:40:16 <ed> Zakim, ??P1 is me
10:40:16 <Zakim> +ed; got it
10:40:43 <Zakim> +??P2
10:40:51 <anthony> Zakim, ??P2 is me
10:40:51 <Zakim> +anthony; got it
10:40:55 <CGI931> CGI931 has joined #svg
10:41:03 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
10:46:13 <anthony> Scribe: anthony
10:46:15 <ed> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0125.html
10:46:32 <anthony> Chair: Erik Dahlstrom
10:46:33 <leonardr> (I am STILL waiting for an operator to get me into the system :(
10:46:54 <anthony> Regrets: Andrew Emmons
10:47:58 <Zakim> + +1.408.536.aaaa
10:47:59 <anthony> Topic: Nuremberg F2F (updated)
10:48:16 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Nuremburg_F2F_2008
10:48:25 <anthony> ED: I got some information from Alex
10:48:37 <anthony> ... I added some information to me the meeting wiki page
10:48:59 <anthony> ... Alex said he'd find out more info for network, restaurants etc
10:49:27 <ed> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/19480/svgF2Fnuremburg2008/
10:49:39 <anthony> ... I've also opened up the attendance page
10:50:41 <anthony> ... most of the information has been taken from the SVG Open travel website
10:51:18 <anthony> Topic: 1.2 Testsuite
10:51:32 <anthony> AG: I've generated the new testsuite
10:51:42 <anthony> ... which includes the minor Erik made
10:51:52 <anthony> ... I omit three tests
10:52:18 <anthony> ... two of them had zero sided reference images
10:52:26 <anthony> ... struct-use-06-t, struct-use-07-t
10:52:42 <anthony> ... and the third test I omitted is
10:52:44 <anthony> ... struct-common-201-t-debug
10:53:25 <anthony> ED: with the struct-use ones couldn't we generate the reference images for them
10:53:57 <anthony> AG: So they were but they had zero sized reference images
10:54:15 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
10:54:19 <heycam> Zakim, [ is me
10:54:19 <Zakim> +heycam; got it
10:54:22 <anthony> ... I'm guessing this is still a beta release so we can sort those out next
10:54:28 <anthony> ED: I see it's still in draft
10:55:18 <anthony> s/it's/both/
10:55:30 <anthony> ED: So the next step is for Doug to push the changes out so they become public
10:55:40 <anthony> DS: I will try to do that today or tomorrow
10:56:08 <anthony> ED: I guess we should make it known that we published an updated version of the test suite
10:56:23 <anthony> ... might want to make the list of issues that's on the wiki known
10:56:27 <anthony> AG: I agree
10:56:31 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Test_Suite_Overview#23_May_2008
10:56:42 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/View_the_list_of_known_issues
10:56:57 <anthony> AG: Looks to me some of the require minimal effort to fix
10:57:16 <anthony> ED: Yes some of them could have images patches for batik to render or png
10:57:39 <anthony> ... the revision numbers could be a bit tedious
10:59:28 <anthony> ACTION: Doug to publish the SVG test suite, announce its publication and the list of known issues
10:59:28 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2062 - Publish the SVG test suite, announce its publication and the list of known issues [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-06-19].
11:00:14 <anthony> Topic: SVG in HTML (cont.)
11:00:37 <anthony> DS: We should finalise this and get it out into the public fairly soon
11:01:12 <anthony> ED: I was just wondering if there was something left for us to discuss about the mail reply from last time
11:01:26 <anthony> ... just wondering about results and the rework
11:01:59 <anthony> AG: So I've started converting the slides to HTML
11:02:03 <anthony> ... just haven't finished yet
11:02:07 <anthony> ... where should I commit it
11:02:43 <anthony> DS: Contact me when you're ready and I'll try to have the structure done for CVS
11:03:40 <anthony> ED: We can expect to have it in CVS by next week
11:03:42 <anthony> AG: For sure
11:03:55 <anthony> Topic: Pending errata items
11:04:02 <anthony> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0069.html
11:04:28 <anthony> ED: We should go through these
11:04:38 <anthony> ... First one is about HKern
11:04:42 <anthony> ... it's a very minor change
11:05:04 <anthony> ... changing the grammar for the u2 attribute
11:05:08 <anthony> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/errata/errata.xml#hkern_u2_definition_typo
11:05:58 <anthony> ED: I think most implementations don't treat it as a number
11:06:09 <anthony> ... it is Category 3 because it may change stuff
11:06:22 <anthony> AG: I don't have any problems with it
11:06:42 <anthony> CM: I agree
11:07:27 <anthony> RESOLUTION: We will move the hkern_u2_definition_typo to proposed status
11:07:33 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/errata/errata.xml#svgtextcontentelement_clarifications
11:08:22 <anthony> ED: The next one is changing what exceptions we throw
11:08:29 <anthony> ... I also found after writing this
11:08:36 <anthony> ... it's kind of strange
11:09:12 <anthony> ... we have parameters that are unsigned long but for negative numbers they throw exceptions
11:09:30 <anthony> CM: Seems like an easy thing to change while we are at it
11:09:47 <anthony> ... We should remove the exception
11:09:52 <ed> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/text.html#InterfaceSVGTextContentElement
11:09:58 <anthony> ED: For the text content element they all take unsigned long
11:10:14 <anthony> CM: For the text interface they take character indexs
11:10:20 <anthony> ... they take unsigned
11:10:41 <anthony> AG: conclusion
11:10:49 <anthony> CM: Remove the exception
11:10:58 <anthony> ED: So what ways is a negative value converted?
11:11:04 <anthony> ... guess it would depend on the unsigned long
11:11:08 <anthony> ... It's fine with me
11:11:31 <anthony> AG: Are you going to make that change as part of the errata change?
11:11:38 <anthony> ED: Sure I can do it
11:11:51 <anthony> ... we should probably change all the text methods as well
11:12:02 <anthony> ... so in that case we should keep it in draft for now
11:13:10 <anthony> ... so this will part of ACTION-2010
11:13:20 <anthony> s/will/will be/
11:13:53 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/errata/errata.xml#value_spacing_of_keySpline_syntax
11:14:14 <anthony> ED: So next one is key spline syntax
11:14:16 <anthony> ... action is closed
11:14:21 <anthony> ... but open in the errata file
11:14:51 <anthony> AG: It doesn't have a category either
11:15:00 <anthony> ED: It's more a clarification
11:15:31 <anthony> ... I think this is a category 2 because it doesn't impact conformance
11:15:38 <anthony> ... the conformance is already in SMIL
11:16:04 <anthony> AG: So I can add the category 2 and close the action item
11:16:43 <anthony> RESOLUTION: Pending the changes to the value_spacing_of_keySpline_syntax we will move this errata item to proposed status
11:17:22 <anthony> Topic: "keep <script> elements running only once"
11:17:38 <anthony> ED: This was a thread on the group list
11:18:03 <anthony> CM: This is me pointing out what Tiny says about script elements
11:18:14 <anthony> ... it's a bit different to what HTML says
11:18:26 <anthony> ... FF and Opera appear to be doing what HTML says
11:18:31 <anthony> ... even for SVG
11:18:39 <anthony> DS: Is that the desired behavior
11:18:52 <anthony> CM: I suspect it's that way because that's how things work in HTML
11:18:58 <anthony> ... legacy reasons
11:19:12 <anthony> ... I don't see any issues for using on or the other
11:19:37 <anthony> ... maybe if you wanted to reuse the same script element multiple times then you want to choose the SVG way
11:19:44 <anthony> ... I think it's a pretty minor thing
11:19:51 <anthony> ... not really stopping you from doing anything
11:20:08 <anthony> ... the two major desktop browsers do it that way
11:20:21 <anthony> ED: I would like to do it the same as HTML
11:20:32 <anthony> ... I would favor us changing it the Tiny spec
11:21:12 <anthony> ... we don't have any test cases on it
11:21:19 <anthony> ... I'd be surprised if people are relying on it
11:21:40 <anthony> CM: Or if people are relying on it they are probably relying on it working on the HTML way
11:21:50 <anthony> DS: I'm trying to think of a reason to do it
11:22:02 <anthony> ... yes we should align
11:22:07 <anthony> ... either SVG or HTML
11:22:33 <anthony> ... there are some issues in which HTML should change, this isn't one of them
11:23:08 <anthony> CM: I think I wouldn't be surprised if there was HTML stuff on it out there that relied on it
11:23:14 <anthony> ... working that way
11:23:27 <anthony> DS: I'm fine with it changing
11:23:45 <anthony> ED: Sounds like we all agree to have the spec changed
11:24:36 <anthony> ACTION: Cameron to fix the spec by aligning the script element behavior with HTMLs script element behavior
11:24:36 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2063 - Fix the spec by aligning the script element behavior with HTMLs script element behavior [on Cameron McCormack - due 2008-06-19].
11:25:18 <anthony> Topic: ARIA in SVG
11:26:25 <anthony> DS: Gives some background of ARIA
11:27:52 <anthony> ... There was a big discussion of the syntax that would be used in HTML and SVG for ARIA
11:27:55 <anthony> ... we didn't like it
11:28:06 <anthony> ... but we agreed to use the aria- syntax
11:28:22 <anthony> CM: From reading things I think that's what I think everyone agreed on
11:28:29 <anthony> ED: That's what we agreed on
11:28:55 <anthony> DS: So since that time, on the HTML list and on the appropriate WAI list
11:29:06 <anthony> ... there has been a lot of debate about it and on the TAG
11:29:16 <anthony> ... tried to push the name spaces syntax
11:29:19 <anthony> ... but if you recall
11:29:23 <anthony> ... after you agreed to it
11:29:49 <anthony> ... it was implemented in all 4 browsers some of which are SVG user agents
11:30:06 <anthony> ... this was the aria- syntax implementation
11:30:07 <shepazu> s/aria-/'aria-*'/
11:30:27 <anthony> DS: So that TAG tried push name spaces syntax
11:30:50 <anthony> ... and there has been push back from WAI
11:31:46 <anthony> ... somehow it wasn't conveyed to WAI that this is what the SVG WG had agreed on
11:32:14 <anthony> ... I'd like to confirm that we agreed to the "aria-*" syntax
11:33:08 <anthony> RESOLUTION: SVG will use the "aria-*" syntax for ARIA and tends to publish a module describing its use with the "role" attribute
11:33:32 <anthony> ED: I found the minutes from the last F2F that we resolved to use the role attribute
11:33:44 <anthony> ... couldn't find the ARIA resolution
11:34:51 <anthony> ED: I guess this answers all their questions
11:35:01 <anthony> ... were all the questions answered on the coordination call
11:35:46 <anthony> ACTION: Doug to send an email to WAI and SVG that we agreed on the ARIA resolution
11:35:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2064 - Send an email to WAI and SVG that we agreed on the ARIA resolution [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-06-19].
11:36:50 <anthony> Topic: www-svg feedback
11:37:02 <anthony> ED: First one is
11:37:04 <anthony> ... ordering of effects with enable-background:new and filter on the same element
11:38:17 <anthony> AG: So reading the spec it wasn't entirely clear
11:38:46 <anthony> ED: I agree for the wording on how to generate the background image is not as clear as it could be
11:38:55 <anthony> AG: Would be nice to have examples of the buffer
11:38:59 <anthony> ... at different stages
11:39:14 <anthony> ED: We all seem to agree on the result of his example
11:39:55 <anthony> AG: So I had a play with it and what opera is doing is correct
11:40:29 <anthony> CM: The way it's written it's a bit unclear on what enable-background applies to
11:42:08 <anthony> ACTION: Erik to reword the enable-background property example
11:42:08 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2065 - Reword the enable-background property example [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-06-19].
11:42:50 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Jun/0003.html
11:42:53 <anthony> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/filters.html#AccessingBackgroundImage
11:43:31 <anthony> AG: So it's that bottom bit before the SVG Syntax example (Example enable-background-01) that's a bit confusing
11:44:18 <anthony> ED: So the next on is
11:44:20 <anthony> more BackgroundImage/enable-background issues
11:44:20 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Jun/0007.html
11:45:05 <anthony> ED: There is nothing really preventing you from doing that
11:45:15 <anthony> ... Batik seems to do what Robert is expecting
11:45:21 <anthony> ... and Opera seems to be clipping
11:46:25 <anthony> ED: I think it's a bug in Opera
11:46:35 <anthony> ... Robert is suggesting to remove half of the sentence
11:46:41 <anthony> ... I don't think that's the best way
11:46:55 <anthony> ... I think it would be better to add some extra text saying that
11:47:07 <anthony> ... extending the background image past the viewPort
11:47:10 <anthony> ... is possible
11:47:36 <anthony> AG: Should we make an errata for this? or will this appear in the module?
11:47:46 <anthony> ED: My plan was for it to appear in the module
11:48:20 <anthony> ACTION: Erik to propose wording that clarifies the use of background image outside of the viewPort bounds
11:48:20 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2066 - Propose wording that clarifies the use of background image outside of the viewPort bounds [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-06-19].
11:48:41 <anthony> ACTION : anthony to add Eriks proposed wording to the Errata. Link to ACTION-2066
11:48:41 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2067 - Add Eriks proposed wording to the Errata. Link to ACTION-2066 [on Anthony Grasso - due 2008-06-19].
11:49:22 <anthony> ED: The next on is about Question about SVG List replaceItem
11:49:22 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008May/0043.html
11:50:00 <anthony> CM: I started to investigate it
11:50:06 <anthony> ... and then ran into a crash in FF
11:50:40 <anthony> CM: [Explains issue]
11:51:07 <anthony> ... The spec doesn't say where the index is
11:51:12 <anthony> ... before or after the removal
11:51:22 <anthony> ED: This is about the SVG path seg list
11:51:32 <anthony> ... only effecting the case where you are trying to replace the item in a list
11:51:59 <anthony> ... in the case we have with replace item on the same list
11:52:05 <anthony> ... some weird things happen
11:52:18 <anthony> CM: So this is why the issues doesn't occur in normal DOM core lists
11:52:32 <anthony> ED: The spec is not clear on this
11:52:55 <anthony> ... the index doesn't really say if the removal is before or after
11:53:00 <anthony> ... so it's not clear where the item will end up
11:53:12 <anthony> CM: Do you think we should test different implementations?
11:53:26 <anthony> ED: I think Opera and Batik are doing different things
11:53:52 <anthony> ... it would be nice to have a few test cases for this
11:54:01 <anthony> ... we should ask him for test cases on this
11:54:21 <anthony> ... we can't resolve it unless we know what implementations are doing
11:56:52 <anthony> ACTION: Cameron to test the SVG List replaceItem behavior of different implementations and report back
11:56:52 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2068 - Test the SVG List replaceItem behavior of different implementations and report back [on Cameron McCormack - due 2008-06-19].
11:57:54 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008May/0033.html
11:57:57 <anthony> ED: So the next one is
11:57:59 <anthony> ... Resolving IRIs for resource documents in SVG Tiny 1.2
11:58:44 <anthony> AG: Looks a bit like an optimisation
11:59:06 <anthony> CM: I think it's a reasonable thing to bring up
11:59:45 <anthony> ... maybe you can rely on caching to see if there is redirect still
12:00:11 <anthony> ED: I'm not sure either
12:02:18 <anthony> AG: Perhaps this is something we can come back to or discuss over email
12:02:35 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
12:02:38 <Zakim> -ed
12:02:40 <Zakim> -heycam
12:02:41 <Zakim> - +1.408.536.aaaa
12:02:43 <Zakim> -anthony
12:02:43 <Zakim> Team_(svg)10:39Z has ended
12:02:44 <Zakim> Attendees were ed, anthony, Doug_Schepers, +1.408.536.aaaa, [IPcaller], heycam
12:04:03 <anthony> Zakim, bye
12:04:03 <Zakim> Zakim has left #svg
12:04:19 <anthony> RRSAgent, make minutes
12:04:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/12-svg-minutes.html anthony
12:04:21 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #svg