IRC log of svg on 2008-06-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

10:36:07 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #svg

10:36:07 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/06/12-svg-irc

10:36:09 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs public

10:36:09 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #svg

10:36:11 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG

10:36:11 [Zakim]

I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot

10:36:12 [trackbot]

Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference

10:36:12 [trackbot]

Date: 12 June 2008

10:37:19 [ed]

hmm...

10:38:23 [shepazu]

hmmm

10:38:26 [shepazu]

I didn't

10:39:00 [shepazu]

ooops... maybe I didn't send out the correction?

10:39:21 [shepazu]

zakim, room for 7?

10:39:22 [Zakim]

ok, shepazu; conference Team_(svg)10:39Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 60 minutes until 1139Z

10:39:36 [shepazu]

Zakim, this will be SVG

10:39:37 [Zakim]

ok, shepazu; I see Team_(svg)10:39Z scheduled to start now

10:39:49 [shepazu]

guess so

10:40:02 [Zakim]

Team_(svg)10:39Z has now started

10:40:09 [Zakim]

+??P1

10:40:16 [ed]

Zakim, ??P1 is me

10:40:16 [Zakim]

+ed; got it

10:40:43 [Zakim]

+??P2

10:40:51 [anthony]

Zakim, ??P2 is me

10:40:51 [Zakim]

+anthony; got it

10:40:55 [CGI931]

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10:41:03 [Zakim]

+Doug_Schepers

10:46:13 [anthony]

Scribe: anthony

10:46:15 [ed]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0125.html

10:46:32 [anthony]

Chair: Erik Dahlstrom

10:46:33 [leonardr]

(I am STILL waiting for an operator to get me into the system :(

10:46:54 [anthony]

Regrets: Andrew Emmons

10:47:58 [Zakim]

+ +1.408.536.aaaa

10:47:59 [anthony]

Topic: Nuremberg F2F (updated)

10:48:16 [ed]

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Nuremburg_F2F_2008

10:48:25 [anthony]

ED: I got some information from Alex

10:48:37 [anthony]

... I added some information to me the meeting wiki page

10:48:59 [anthony]

... Alex said he'd find out more info for network, restaurants etc

10:49:27 [ed]

http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/19480/svgF2Fnuremburg2008/

10:49:39 [anthony]

... I've also opened up the attendance page

10:50:41 [anthony]

... most of the information has been taken from the SVG Open travel website

10:51:18 [anthony]

Topic: 1.2 Testsuite

10:51:32 [anthony]

AG: I've generated the new testsuite

10:51:42 [anthony]

... which includes the minor Erik made

10:51:52 [anthony]

... I omit three tests

10:52:18 [anthony]

... two of them had zero sided reference images

10:52:26 [anthony]

... struct-use-06-t, struct-use-07-t

10:52:42 [anthony]

... and the third test I omitted is

10:52:44 [anthony]

... struct-common-201-t-debug

10:53:25 [anthony]

ED: with the struct-use ones couldn't we generate the reference images for them

10:53:57 [anthony]

AG: So they were but they had zero sized reference images

10:54:15 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

10:54:19 [heycam]

Zakim, [ is me

10:54:19 [Zakim]

+heycam; got it

10:54:22 [anthony]

... I'm guessing this is still a beta release so we can sort those out next

10:54:28 [anthony]

ED: I see it's still in draft

10:55:18 [anthony]

s/it's/both/

10:55:30 [anthony]

ED: So the next step is for Doug to push the changes out so they become public

10:55:40 [anthony]

DS: I will try to do that today or tomorrow

10:56:08 [anthony]

ED: I guess we should make it known that we published an updated version of the test suite

10:56:23 [anthony]

... might want to make the list of issues that's on the wiki known

10:56:27 [anthony]

AG: I agree

10:56:31 [ed]

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Test_Suite_Overview#23_May_2008

10:56:42 [ed]

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/View_the_list_of_known_issues

10:56:57 [anthony]

AG: Looks to me some of the require minimal effort to fix

10:57:16 [anthony]

ED: Yes some of them could have images patches for batik to render or png

10:57:39 [anthony]

... the revision numbers could be a bit tedious

10:59:28 [anthony]

ACTION: Doug to publish the SVG test suite, announce its publication and the list of known issues

10:59:28 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-2062 - Publish the SVG test suite, announce its publication and the list of known issues [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-06-19].

11:00:14 [anthony]

Topic: SVG in HTML (cont.)

11:00:37 [anthony]

DS: We should finalise this and get it out into the public fairly soon

11:01:12 [anthony]

ED: I was just wondering if there was something left for us to discuss about the mail reply from last time

11:01:26 [anthony]

... just wondering about results and the rework

11:01:59 [anthony]

AG: So I've started converting the slides to HTML

11:02:03 [anthony]

... just haven't finished yet

11:02:07 [anthony]

... where should I commit it

11:02:43 [anthony]

DS: Contact me when you're ready and I'll try to have the structure done for CVS

11:03:40 [anthony]

ED: We can expect to have it in CVS by next week

11:03:42 [anthony]

AG: For sure

11:03:55 [anthony]

Topic: Pending errata items

11:04:02 [anthony]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0069.html

11:04:28 [anthony]

ED: We should go through these

11:04:38 [anthony]

... First one is about HKern

11:04:42 [anthony]

... it's a very minor change

11:05:04 [anthony]

... changing the grammar for the u2 attribute

11:05:08 [anthony]

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/errata/errata.xml#hkern_u2_definition_typo

11:05:58 [anthony]

ED: I think most implementations don't treat it as a number

11:06:09 [anthony]

... it is Category 3 because it may change stuff

11:06:22 [anthony]

AG: I don't have any problems with it

11:06:42 [anthony]

CM: I agree

11:07:27 [anthony]

RESOLUTION: We will move the hkern_u2_definition_typo to proposed status

11:07:33 [ed]

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/errata/errata.xml#svgtextcontentelement_clarifications

11:08:22 [anthony]

ED: The next one is changing what exceptions we throw

11:08:29 [anthony]

... I also found after writing this

11:08:36 [anthony]

... it's kind of strange

11:09:12 [anthony]

... we have parameters that are unsigned long but for negative numbers they throw exceptions

11:09:30 [anthony]

CM: Seems like an easy thing to change while we are at it

11:09:47 [anthony]

... We should remove the exception

11:09:52 [ed]

http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/text.html#InterfaceSVGTextContentElement

11:09:58 [anthony]

ED: For the text content element they all take unsigned long

11:10:14 [anthony]

CM: For the text interface they take character indexs

11:10:20 [anthony]

... they take unsigned

11:10:41 [anthony]

AG: conclusion

11:10:49 [anthony]

CM: Remove the exception

11:10:58 [anthony]

ED: So what ways is a negative value converted?

11:11:04 [anthony]

... guess it would depend on the unsigned long

11:11:08 [anthony]

... It's fine with me

11:11:31 [anthony]

AG: Are you going to make that change as part of the errata change?

11:11:38 [anthony]

ED: Sure I can do it

11:11:51 [anthony]

... we should probably change all the text methods as well

11:12:02 [anthony]

... so in that case we should keep it in draft for now

11:13:10 [anthony]

... so this will part of ACTION-2010

11:13:20 [anthony]

s/will/will be/

11:13:53 [ed]

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/errata/errata.xml#value_spacing_of_keySpline_syntax

11:14:14 [anthony]

ED: So next one is key spline syntax

11:14:16 [anthony]

... action is closed

11:14:21 [anthony]

... but open in the errata file

11:14:51 [anthony]

AG: It doesn't have a category either

11:15:00 [anthony]

ED: It's more a clarification

11:15:31 [anthony]

... I think this is a category 2 because it doesn't impact conformance

11:15:38 [anthony]

... the conformance is already in SMIL

11:16:04 [anthony]

AG: So I can add the category 2 and close the action item

11:16:43 [anthony]

RESOLUTION: Pending the changes to the value_spacing_of_keySpline_syntax we will move this errata item to proposed status

11:17:22 [anthony]

Topic: "keep <script> elements running only once"

11:17:38 [anthony]

ED: This was a thread on the group list

11:18:03 [anthony]

CM: This is me pointing out what Tiny says about script elements

11:18:14 [anthony]

... it's a bit different to what HTML says

11:18:26 [anthony]

... FF and Opera appear to be doing what HTML says

11:18:31 [anthony]

... even for SVG

11:18:39 [anthony]

DS: Is that the desired behavior

11:18:52 [anthony]

CM: I suspect it's that way because that's how things work in HTML

11:18:58 [anthony]

... legacy reasons

11:19:12 [anthony]

... I don't see any issues for using on or the other

11:19:37 [anthony]

... maybe if you wanted to reuse the same script element multiple times then you want to choose the SVG way

11:19:44 [anthony]

... I think it's a pretty minor thing

11:19:51 [anthony]

... not really stopping you from doing anything

11:20:08 [anthony]

... the two major desktop browsers do it that way

11:20:21 [anthony]

ED: I would like to do it the same as HTML

11:20:32 [anthony]

... I would favor us changing it the Tiny spec

11:21:12 [anthony]

... we don't have any test cases on it

11:21:19 [anthony]

... I'd be surprised if people are relying on it

11:21:40 [anthony]

CM: Or if people are relying on it they are probably relying on it working on the HTML way

11:21:50 [anthony]

DS: I'm trying to think of a reason to do it

11:22:02 [anthony]

... yes we should align

11:22:07 [anthony]

... either SVG or HTML

11:22:33 [anthony]

... there are some issues in which HTML should change, this isn't one of them

11:23:08 [anthony]

CM: I think I wouldn't be surprised if there was HTML stuff on it out there that relied on it

11:23:14 [anthony]

... working that way

11:23:27 [anthony]

DS: I'm fine with it changing

11:23:45 [anthony]

ED: Sounds like we all agree to have the spec changed

11:24:36 [anthony]

ACTION: Cameron to fix the spec by aligning the script element behavior with HTMLs script element behavior

11:24:36 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-2063 - Fix the spec by aligning the script element behavior with HTMLs script element behavior [on Cameron McCormack - due 2008-06-19].

11:25:18 [anthony]

Topic: ARIA in SVG

11:26:25 [anthony]

DS: Gives some background of ARIA

11:27:52 [anthony]

... There was a big discussion of the syntax that would be used in HTML and SVG for ARIA

11:27:55 [anthony]

... we didn't like it

11:28:06 [anthony]

... but we agreed to use the aria- syntax

11:28:22 [anthony]

CM: From reading things I think that's what I think everyone agreed on

11:28:29 [anthony]

ED: That's what we agreed on

11:28:55 [anthony]

DS: So since that time, on the HTML list and on the appropriate WAI list

11:29:06 [anthony]

... there has been a lot of debate about it and on the TAG

11:29:16 [anthony]

... tried to push the name spaces syntax

11:29:19 [anthony]

... but if you recall

11:29:23 [anthony]

... after you agreed to it

11:29:49 [anthony]

... it was implemented in all 4 browsers some of which are SVG user agents

11:30:06 [anthony]

... this was the aria- syntax implementation

11:30:07 [shepazu]

s/aria-/'aria-*'/

11:30:27 [anthony]

DS: So that TAG tried push name spaces syntax

11:30:50 [anthony]

... and there has been push back from WAI

11:31:46 [anthony]

... somehow it wasn't conveyed to WAI that this is what the SVG WG had agreed on

11:32:14 [anthony]

... I'd like to confirm that we agreed to the "aria-*" syntax

11:33:08 [anthony]

RESOLUTION: SVG will use the "aria-*" syntax for ARIA and tends to publish a module describing its use with the "role" attribute

11:33:32 [anthony]

ED: I found the minutes from the last F2F that we resolved to use the role attribute

11:33:44 [anthony]

... couldn't find the ARIA resolution

11:34:51 [anthony]

ED: I guess this answers all their questions

11:35:01 [anthony]

... were all the questions answered on the coordination call

11:35:46 [anthony]

ACTION: Doug to send an email to WAI and SVG that we agreed on the ARIA resolution

11:35:46 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-2064 - Send an email to WAI and SVG that we agreed on the ARIA resolution [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-06-19].

11:36:50 [anthony]

Topic: www-svg feedback

11:37:02 [anthony]

ED: First one is

11:37:04 [anthony]

... ordering of effects with enable-background:new and filter on the same element

11:38:17 [anthony]

AG: So reading the spec it wasn't entirely clear

11:38:46 [anthony]

ED: I agree for the wording on how to generate the background image is not as clear as it could be

11:38:55 [anthony]

AG: Would be nice to have examples of the buffer

11:38:59 [anthony]

... at different stages

11:39:14 [anthony]

ED: We all seem to agree on the result of his example

11:39:55 [anthony]

AG: So I had a play with it and what opera is doing is correct

11:40:29 [anthony]

CM: The way it's written it's a bit unclear on what enable-background applies to

11:42:08 [anthony]

ACTION: Erik to reword the enable-background property example

11:42:08 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-2065 - Reword the enable-background property example [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-06-19].

11:42:50 [ed]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Jun/0003.html

11:42:53 [anthony]

http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/filters.html#AccessingBackgroundImage

11:43:31 [anthony]

AG: So it's that bottom bit before the SVG Syntax example (Example enable-background-01) that's a bit confusing

11:44:18 [anthony]

ED: So the next on is

11:44:20 [anthony]

more BackgroundImage/enable-background issues

11:44:20 [ed]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Jun/0007.html

11:45:05 [anthony]

ED: There is nothing really preventing you from doing that

11:45:15 [anthony]

... Batik seems to do what Robert is expecting

11:45:21 [anthony]

... and Opera seems to be clipping

11:46:19 [anthony]

AG: I agree with what Robert is saying and what Batik produces

11:46:25 [anthony]

ED: I think it's a bug in Opera

11:46:35 [anthony]

... Robert is suggesting to remove half of the sentence

11:46:41 [anthony]

... I don't think that's the best way

11:46:55 [anthony]

... I think it would be better to add some extra text saying that

11:47:07 [anthony]

... extending the background image past the viewPort

11:47:10 [anthony]

... is possible

11:47:36 [anthony]

AG: Should we make an errata for this? or will this appear in the module?

11:47:46 [anthony]

ED: My plan was for it to appear in the module

11:48:20 [anthony]

ACTION: Erik to propose wording that clarifies the use of background image outside of the viewPort bounds

11:48:41 [anthony]

ACTION : anthony to add Eriks proposed wording to the Errata. Link to ACTION-2066

11:48:41 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-2067 - Add Eriks proposed wording to the Errata. Link to ACTION-2066 [on Anthony Grasso - due 2008-06-19].

11:49:22 [anthony]

ED: The next on is about Question about SVG List replaceItem

11:49:22 [ed]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008May/0043.html

11:50:00 [anthony]

CM: I started to investigate it

11:50:06 [anthony]

... and then ran into a crash in FF

11:50:40 [anthony]

CM: [Explains issue]

11:51:07 [anthony]

... The spec doesn't say where the index is

11:51:12 [anthony]

... before or after the removal

11:51:22 [anthony]

ED: This is about the SVG path seg list

11:51:32 [anthony]

... only effecting the case where you are trying to replace the item in a list

11:51:59 [anthony]

... in the case we have with replace item on the same list

11:52:05 [anthony]

... some weird things happen

11:52:18 [anthony]

CM: So this is why the issues doesn't occur in normal DOM core lists

11:52:32 [anthony]

ED: The spec is not clear on this

11:52:55 [anthony]

... the index doesn't really say if the removal is before or after

11:53:00 [anthony]

... so it's not clear where the item will end up

11:53:12 [anthony]

CM: Do you think we should test different implementations?

11:53:26 [anthony]

ED: I think Opera and Batik are doing different things

11:53:52 [anthony]

... it would be nice to have a few test cases for this

11:54:01 [anthony]

... we should ask him for test cases on this

11:54:21 [anthony]

... we can't resolve it unless we know what implementations are doing

11:56:52 [anthony]

ACTION: Cameron to test the SVG List replaceItem behavior of different implementations and report back

11:56:52 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-2068 - Test the SVG List replaceItem behavior of different implementations and report back [on Cameron McCormack - due 2008-06-19].

11:57:54 [ed]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008May/0033.html

11:57:57 [anthony]

ED: So the next one is

11:57:59 [anthony]

... Resolving IRIs for resource documents in SVG Tiny 1.2

11:58:44 [anthony]

AG: Looks a bit like an optimisation

11:59:06 [anthony]

CM: I think it's a reasonable thing to bring up

11:59:45 [anthony]

... maybe you can rely on caching to see if there is redirect still

12:00:11 [anthony]

ED: I'm not sure either

12:02:18 [anthony]

AG: Perhaps this is something we can come back to or discuss over email

12:02:35 [Zakim]

-Doug_Schepers

12:02:38 [Zakim]

-ed

12:02:40 [Zakim]

-heycam

12:02:41 [Zakim]

- +1.408.536.aaaa

12:02:43 [Zakim]

-anthony

12:02:43 [Zakim]

Team_(svg)10:39Z has ended

12:02:44 [Zakim]

Attendees were ed, anthony, Doug_Schepers, +1.408.536.aaaa, [IPcaller], heycam

12:04:03 [anthony]

Zakim, bye

12:04:03 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #svg

12:04:19 [anthony]

RRSAgent, make minutes

12:04:19 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/12-svg-minutes.html anthony

12:04:21 [ChrisL]

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