IRC log of pling on 2008-06-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

11:50:54 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #pling
11:50:54 [RRSAgent]
logging to
11:51:03 [rigo]
RRSAgent, please set log public
11:51:17 [rigo]
chair: Marco Casassa-Mont
11:51:26 [rigo]
scribe: rigo
11:51:34 [rigo]
scribenick: rigo
11:52:00 [rigo]
rigo has changed the topic to: Agenda:
11:52:08 [rigo]
11:52:17 [rigo]
zakim, this will be pling
11:52:17 [Zakim]
ok, rigo; I see P3P_PLING()8:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
11:52:24 [rigo]
zakim, code?
11:52:24 [Zakim]
the conference code is 75464 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), rigo
11:57:00 [tlr]
tlr has joined #pling
11:57:22 [Zakim]
P3P_PLING()8:00AM has now started
11:57:28 [Zakim]
11:58:04 [tlr]
zakim, call thomas-781
11:58:04 [Zakim]
ok, tlr; the call is being made
11:58:05 [Zakim]
11:58:39 [tlr]
zakim, ??P0 is marco
11:58:39 [Zakim]
+marco; got it
11:58:46 [Zakim]
11:59:28 [Ashok]
Ashok has joined #pling
12:00:11 [rigo]
Hi Ashok
12:00:30 [Ashok]
Hi Rigo, Good Morning!
12:00:53 [rigo]
for me it's already 2pm :)
12:01:20 [Zakim]
12:01:28 [Ashok]
Ah! You are in Europe!
12:03:20 [rigo]
12:03:21 [Zakim]
+ +49.431.988.aaaa
12:03:32 [tlr]
12:03:38 [rigo]
zakim, aaaa is Jan_Schallboeck
12:03:38 [Zakim]
+Jan_Schallboeck; got it
12:03:50 [tlr]
Topic: agenda review
12:05:04 [tlr]
12:05:19 [tlr]
tlr: Can Jan S give us an update on the Identity camp?
12:05:27 [tlr]
janS: policies and preferences, let's have a tempest
12:05:58 [tlr]
topic: Review Wiki Activities
12:06:16 [tlr]
12:06:21 [tlr]
... any updates recently?
12:06:29 [tlr]
Ashok: I've added some stuff on Ws-Policy
12:06:43 [tlr]
... pease note that it's a personal point of view, you might wish to object against it ...
12:07:18 [tlr]
marco: Want to say what it is?
12:07:35 [tlr]
ashok: What I put in there is stuff that WS-Policy doesn't say ...
12:07:40 [tlr]
... the spec says how you can write policy ...
12:07:44 [tlr]
... but not how to use them ...
12:07:51 [tlr]
... questions about how ws-policy ought to be used ...
12:08:18 [tlr]
... some interest in W3C work on WS-Policy usage ...
12:08:27 [tlr]
... not yet entirely clear whether and where that might happen ...
12:08:30 [tlr]
... will provide updates ....
12:08:48 [rigo]
12:09:09 [tlr]
ACTION: Marco to drive discussion about making recent changes visible?
12:09:24 [rigo]
12:09:28 [rigo]
for latest changes
12:09:38 [tlr]
marco: Added two pages as summary, to add some stuff about PRIME privacy-aware policies
12:09:48 [tlr]
... I will add some more about obligation policies ...
12:09:54 [tlr]
... anything else?
12:10:25 [tlr]
topic: liaison updates?
12:10:36 [tlr]
marco: I'm aware of some discussion re JTC1 SC27 WG 5?
12:10:58 [tlr]
jans: Happy to give some overview of what happened there recently
12:11:04 [tlr]
... Kai R, Manfred ?? and myself from Primelife
12:11:17 [tlr]
... had some discussions about a standard proposed by ITU-T ...
12:11:20 [tlr]
... going into a final state ...
12:11:25 [tlr]
... X.IDMRequirements ...
12:11:29 [tlr]
... came out of FG IdM ...
12:11:36 [tlr]
... data flow model, definitional work ...
12:11:41 [tlr]
... heavy ISO discussion about that ...
12:11:47 [tlr]
... but ITU-T not too happy about these comments ....
12:11:58 [tlr]
... argument is that reducing IDM to basically one model of identity flow ...
12:12:06 [tlr]
... talking about having the IDP talk to the RP directly ...
12:12:11 [tlr]
... isn't very privacy friendly ...
12:12:18 [tlr]
... and there are systems out there that take different approaches ...
12:12:31 [tlr]
... getting some political momentum toward the end of the Kyoto meeting ...
12:12:38 [tlr]
... relatively harsh liaison statement to ITU-T ...
12:13:03 [tlr]
... but ITU-T said they couldn't take it into account, since there had been a liaison before ...
12:13:05 [tlr]
marco: what'll happen enxt?
12:13:07 [tlr]
12:13:18 [tlr]
jans: There will be some more comments; not sure whether they'll be taken into account
12:13:34 [tlr]
.. talked to German rep to ITU-T, not clear whether they'll get it done in time for end of year ...
12:13:42 [tlr]
... within ISO, there's ongoing work on Identity framework and privacy architecture ...
12:13:44 [Zakim]
12:13:47 [tlr]
... this is out there ...
12:14:00 [tlr]
... ??
12:14:20 [tlr]
zakim, ??P12 is christina
12:14:20 [Zakim]
+christina; got it
12:14:56 [tlr]
jans: Think a liaison statement should have gone out to PLING giving an overview that WG5 is working on, so useful to look at
12:15:07 [tlr]
... if I think there's anything that's in scope here, I'll keep you updated ...
12:15:14 [tlr]
rigo: Have you sent that liaison statement?
12:15:23 [tlr]
... I actually think we still have to write the request letter ...
12:15:40 [tlr]
jan: We actually didn't pass anything in this direction
12:15:54 [tlr]
... probably a good idea to request liaison with formal statement, briefly describing pling ...
12:16:03 [tlr]
... mistakenly thought it was already established ...
12:16:09 [tlr]
rigo: on my plate
12:16:43 [tlr]
jan: Please do statement before September, that's the next meeting where it could be approved.
12:16:58 [tlr]
marco: Anything else on the first point. Otherwise, updates on primelife?
12:17:01 [tlr]
zakim, unmute me
12:17:01 [Zakim]
sorry, tlr, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
12:17:04 [tlr]
zakim, I am thomas
12:17:04 [Zakim]
ok, tlr, I now associate you with Thomas
12:17:10 [tlr]
rigo: oh, yes, primelife update
12:17:17 [tlr]
... first deliverable finished, might be interested.
12:17:22 [tlr]
... it's a list of standards and descriptions ...
12:17:35 [tlr]
... some management stuff to be sorted out ...
12:17:36 [tlr]
12:17:38 [tlr]
q- tlr
12:17:46 [tlr]
12:19:21 [tlr]
tlr: I think the deliverable is intended to be public, so should come up some time soon; Contributing it to pling is another question
12:19:33 [tlr]
marco: liberty -- working on identity assurance, some of that relates to privacy
12:19:40 [tlr]
... might have deeper look and report during next meeting ...
12:19:56 [tlr]
marco: on picos... don't think anybody here is involved with that directly ...
12:20:14 [tlr]
... but I'd be happy to invite somebody relevant from HP labs to give an update and let them talk about potential links in terms of use cases and policies ...
12:20:26 [tlr]
... I fear they might also need some specific authorization ...
12:20:52 [tlr]
topic: TPAC
12:20:56 [tlr]
marco: 24/25 October
12:20:59 [tlr]
... updates on that?
12:21:14 [tlr]
rigo: what we have to do now (and on the next meeting) ...
12:21:24 [tlr]
... is start thinking about how many people will come, have to get the room and all that ..
12:21:36 [tlr]
... set up agenda so we can attract other people ...
12:21:49 [tlr]
... and actually, also set up and encourage people to attend ...
12:21:54 [tlr]
... location is very nice ...
12:22:01 [tlr]
... all kinds of good reasons to go there ...
12:22:09 [tlr]
... would love to get a really interesting agenda together ...
12:22:21 [tlr]
... talking about issues we're facing in research projects, and how they relate to existing standards ...
12:22:36 [tlr]
... talk about what Ashok mentioned; WS-Policy enables negotiation, but how do you combine that with sticky policies ...
12:23:03 [tlr]
... how can we group the industry to generate sufficient intereest ...
12:23:05 [tlr]
... these kinds of discussions ...
12:23:07 [tlr]
... what are the challenges we should focus on ...
12:23:15 [tlr]
... for the moment we can discuss use cases or interesting cases ...
12:23:23 [tlr]
... have a bunch, but don't get around to putting them into the wiki ...
12:23:42 [tlr]
marco: anything else we should be aware of?
12:23:59 [tlr]
topic: IEEE Policy 2008?
12:24:08 [tlr]
marco: Was anybody here at that meeting?
12:24:40 [tlr]
12:24:46 [tlr]
12:25:14 [tlr]
topic: extension?
12:25:22 [tlr]
rigo: If we're still on course, extension would be granted
12:25:36 [tlr]
... had a short charter, so it's expiring on 30 June at this point ...
12:25:57 [tlr]
... think it makes sense to continue given PrimeLife and PICOS, and interest in WS-POlicy ...
12:26:06 [tlr]
... would like to have commitments from chair candidates ...
12:26:13 [tlr]
... Ashok, is Oracle still interested?
12:26:20 [tlr]
12:26:30 [tlr]
ashok: I'm still interested in working with you guys
12:26:34 [tlr]
rigo: That's what I mean.
12:26:53 [tlr]
marco: Does anybody else have something new?
12:27:21 [tlr]
topic: German Identity Camp update
12:27:31 [tlr]
JanS: some effort to start momentum toward German OpenID foundation ...
12:27:41 [tlr]
... attended that session, dealt out business cards ...
12:27:49 [tlr]
... in case they're doing anything relevant to privacy ...
12:27:57 [tlr]
... they're not the ones to drive OpenId standard forward ...
12:28:06 [tlr]
... some interesting presentations on the new basic right that emerged in Germany ...
12:28:21 [tlr]
... some discussion with Caspar Bowden, who was alarmed by some moves within European Parliament ...
12:28:30 [tlr]
... to narrow down scope of personal data dramatically ...
12:28:35 [tlr]
... not too much that really overlaps with work here ...
12:28:41 [tlr]
... good gathering of community ...
12:28:48 [tlr]
... good thing to continuously do and get going ...
12:28:58 [tlr]
... a lot of people were interested in getting some IDM going ..
12:29:05 [tlr]
... but still looking for the killer app ...
12:29:09 [tlr]
... trying to find ways how to get it going ...
12:29:20 [tlr]
... pointed them to some activities; might be a case for some enterprise IDM stuff ...
12:29:26 [tlr]
... overall, think it was quite a good event ...
12:29:31 [tlr]
... hope to see this to continue soon ...
12:29:58 [tlr]
marco: Was does "openID in Germany" really mean?
12:30:16 [tlr]
janS: it's some people from Germany that have a specific interest in OpenID because they think it's a good protocol ...
12:30:24 [tlr]
... interest in being involved, pushing it into the market ...
12:30:30 [tlr]
... join forces to facilitate that approach ...
12:30:35 [tlr]
... promotion, use cases, ...
12:31:41 [tlr]
marco: impact on policies in the long term; currently, very blurry
12:32:22 [tlr]
jans: some people think OpenID might be interesting for credentials, but it currently seems to have flaws that make it unsuitable for secure credential exchange
12:32:32 [tlr]
... suspect that MS could include OpenID with their metasystem ...
12:33:03 [tlr]
... have heard that there are some implementations for Shibboleth, Liberty 2.0 tries to include both ...
12:33:17 [tlr]
jans: talked to caspar about anonymous credential standardization
12:33:29 [tlr]
... don't think there should be expectations that anything might happen too soon ...
12:33:36 [tlr]
... ms and ibm might need to sort out somep oints ...
12:33:46 [tlr]
... there could be interest in fast-tracking a common standard somewhere ...
12:34:14 [tlr]
marco: expect assertions to carry more and more information ...
12:34:24 [tlr]
... infocard; also, more and more assertions in liberty ...
12:34:33 [tlr]
... will impact back-en policies ...
12:34:36 [tlr]
... ws-policy ...
12:34:53 [tlr]
... use cases where change of credentials occurs within complex interactions ...
12:35:00 [tlr]
... in context with access control policies, and so on ...
12:35:05 [tlr]
... could be interesting discussion ...
12:35:16 [tlr]
... anything else?
12:35:24 [tlr]
s/to caspar about/to caspar bowden about/
12:35:57 [tlr]
topic: preferences vs policies
12:36:16 [tlr]
jans: some people said they'd like to see the same language used for preferences and policies ...
12:36:17 [rigo]
here comes the supermarket
12:36:29 [tlr]
... but Rigo noted serious implications that would not allow for same language ...
12:36:41 [tlr]
... don't think we'll finish that one today ...
12:36:47 [tlr]
ashok: did you mention there was a paper on this?
12:37:04 [tlr]
jan: not specifically on this; it's a paper that we're preparing as a deliverable within PrimeLife; one paragraph was raising this question
12:37:26 [tlr]
ashok: There has been a lot of discussion on this ...
12:37:35 [tlr]
... lots of people think this is an important requirement ...
12:37:44 [tlr]
... but nobody has come up with a framework or solution ...
12:37:47 [tlr]
... that's where we are on this ...
12:37:55 [tlr]
... that's why if you have a paper on this, I'd like to read it ...
12:38:15 [tlr]
jans: no paper yet, but if it's reasonable, then need to move ahead
12:38:21 [tlr]
... instead of halting it right away ...
12:38:27 [tlr]
ashok: What we require is a good idea
12:38:30 [tlr]
... how to do it ...
12:38:47 [tlr]
jans: will report back after that meeting
12:38:47 [tlr]
12:38:56 [tlr]
ack thomas
12:39:26 [rigo]
tlr: think rigo's statement sounded about lesson about P3P WG
12:40:20 [rigo] that case I believe that P3P could not be used without pain to describe preferences
12:40:39 [rigo]
...but what about description of permissible operations, this might work for both
12:41:01 [rigo]
...have been playing around with this 2 years ago
12:41:27 [rigo]
...modelled P3P in OWL and could use a description logic reasoner to come to conclusions
12:41:53 [tlr]
s/P3P in OWL/some subset of P3P in OWL/
12:43:03 [tlr]
12:43:05 [tlr]
12:43:47 [rigo]
12:43:56 [tlr]
here we go...
12:44:06 [tlr]
rigo: supermarket issue!
12:44:21 [tlr]
... it is one thing whether you can have a policy language that you show to a third party
12:44:32 [tlr]
... what you might do, or whether it's about what you will follow ...
12:44:58 [tlr]
... may be possible, especially giving thomas's idea re permissible uses and rules ...
12:45:06 [tlr]
... when p3p came up, we had no useful rule framework ...
12:45:19 [tlr]
... use of owl or rif
12:45:56 [tlr]
rigo: it is one thing whether you can use plain P3P to implement preferences
12:46:07 [tlr]
... implementing appel was possible, but also a challenge; led to weird rsults ...
12:46:16 [tlr]
marco: remember all this discussion ...
12:46:44 [tlr]
... think real-world examples would be useful
12:46:45 [tlr]
12:46:48 [rigo]
12:47:13 [tlr]
topic: PRIME Closing event
12:47:23 [tlr]
marco: There will be a PRIME closing event in Leuven on 21 July
12:47:38 [tlr]
... it's co-located with PET symposium ...
12:47:50 [tlr]
rigo: will be on the closing event, but not on symposium ...
12:47:56 [tlr]
topic: aob?
12:47:57 [tlr]
12:48:04 [tlr]
topic: next meeting
12:48:11 [tlr]
marco: The next meeting is exepcted for 9 July
12:48:35 [tlr]
tlr: possible regrets from tlr and rigo
12:48:49 [Zakim]
12:48:50 [tlr]
12:48:50 [Zakim]
12:48:50 [Zakim]
12:48:52 [Zakim]
12:48:52 [tlr]
rrsagent, make log public
12:48:56 [tlr]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:48:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate tlr
12:48:59 [Zakim]
12:49:01 [Zakim]
12:49:01 [Zakim]
P3P_PLING()8:00AM has ended
12:49:02 [Zakim]
Attendees were Thomas, marco, Rigo, Ashok_Malhotra, +49.431.988.aaaa, Jan_Schallboeck, christina
12:49:30 [tlr]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:49:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate tlr
12:57:56 [tlr]
tlr has joined #pling
12:58:04 [tlr]
rigo, I'm taking care of the minutes
12:58:52 [tlr]
... and done
15:01:38 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #pling
15:49:51 [rigo]
RRSAgent, bye
15:49:51 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in :
15:49:51 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Marco to drive discussion about making recent changes visible? [1]
15:49:51 [RRSAgent]
recorded in