IRC log of svg on 2008-06-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:31:24 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #svg
12:31:24 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/06/10-svg-irc
12:31:26 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
12:31:26 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #svg
12:31:28 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
12:31:28 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG()8:30AM scheduled to start now
12:31:29 [trackbot]
Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
12:31:29 [trackbot]
Date: 10 June 2008
12:31:56 [Zakim]
GA_SVGWG()8:30AM has now started
12:32:03 [Zakim]
+??P4
12:32:12 [aemmons]
zakim, ??p4 is me
12:32:12 [Zakim]
+aemmons; got it
12:32:16 [Zakim]
+??P5
12:32:17 [Zakim]
+??P6
12:32:25 [ed]
Zakim, ??P5 is me
12:32:25 [Zakim]
+ed; got it
12:32:35 [anthony]
Zakim, ??P6 is me
12:32:35 [Zakim]
+anthony; got it
12:35:02 [shepazu]
Zakim, call shepazu
12:35:02 [Zakim]
ok, shepazu; the call is being made
12:35:03 [Zakim]
+Shepazu
12:36:14 [Zakim]
+zlatinski
12:37:31 [zlatinski]
zlatinski has joined #svg
12:37:40 [anthony]
Scribe: anthony
12:37:48 [anthony]
Chair: Andrew Emmons
12:37:57 [aemmons]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0121.html
12:38:08 [anthony]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0121.html
12:38:41 [anthony]
Topic: publication of SVGT 1.2 testsuite
12:38:50 [anthony]
AE: Erik sent an email to the public list
12:38:55 [anthony]
... with sort of a review
12:39:16 [anthony]
... do we feel comfortable releasing the test as is?
12:39:30 [anthony]
DS: Don't see what the problem is
12:39:37 [anthony]
... we can always add to the test suite
12:39:53 [anthony]
ED: Miss matching reference images are a small problem
12:40:04 [anthony]
... The incorrect reference images are a bigger problem
12:40:30 [anthony]
AE: Regarding the existing of tests that haven't been approved
12:40:35 [anthony]
... and have the draft water mark
12:40:44 [anthony]
... I think Chris was after feedback
12:41:09 [anthony]
... I don't mind either way
12:41:19 [anthony]
ED: Some tests looked more complete than others
12:41:31 [anthony]
... in my opinion I think we should fix the ones with serious errors
12:41:39 [anthony]
... such as mismatching reference images
12:41:56 [anthony]
AE: So what does everyone else think?
12:42:41 [anthony]
... there are people that may be waiting for the test suite
12:42:52 [anthony]
... e.g. OMA
12:43:13 [ed]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0103.html
12:43:24 [anthony]
ED: I guess another option is to publish my mail along with the test suite
12:43:31 [anthony]
AE: A list of known issues
12:43:39 [anthony]
... that might be a good compromise
12:44:08 [anthony]
AG: I'm fine with that
12:44:16 [anthony]
AE: So if we go ahead with this
12:44:22 [anthony]
... when can we publish it?
12:44:42 [anthony]
... my impression is that this is something Doug or Chris have to do
12:44:54 [anthony]
DS: I can probably publish it this week
12:46:34 [anthony]
RESOLUTION: We will proceed to with publication of the test suite package currently in CVS and we will package known issues along with it
12:47:45 [anthony]
ACTION: Erik to Update list of known issues and add draft water marking back to tests that are still in their infancy
12:47:45 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2057 - Update list of known issues and add draft water marking back to tests that are still in their infancy [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-06-17].
12:48:12 [anthony]
ED: Should I put the list of known issues on the wiki
12:48:14 [anthony]
AE: Sure
12:48:51 [anthony]
Topic: status update for moving specs to public CVS
12:48:57 [anthony]
DS: Is that me?
12:49:16 [anthony]
AE: I seem to remember Chris saying he could do that task
12:49:47 [anthony]
DS: He's been a bit sick lately and hasn't been able to get to it
12:49:57 [anthony]
... I'd like to get to doing it this week if I can
12:50:14 [anthony]
... have a lot to do at the moment
12:50:48 [anthony]
... It shouldn't be too hard to transition it to it's new home
12:51:00 [anthony]
... just need a block of time to do it
12:51:08 [anthony]
AE: We have to coordinate on the list when we are going to do it
12:51:30 [anthony]
... so changes don't get lost
12:51:32 [ed]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2039
12:52:56 [anthony]
ACTION: Doug to look into problem with new tracker having incorrect links to minutes and notes in issues
12:52:56 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2058 - Look into problem with new tracker having incorrect links to minutes and notes in issues [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-06-17].
12:53:51 [anthony]
Topic: XHR review
12:54:05 [anthony]
DS: Both Erik and Cameron have sent in reviews
12:54:15 [anthony]
... I had already sent some comments earlier on my own
12:54:40 [anthony]
... I haven't had the time to do any more review
12:54:53 [anthony]
... I think Erik and Cameron have caught all of the big issues
12:55:09 [anthony]
... We should probably compile the two sets of comments together
12:55:13 [anthony]
... to send off
12:55:17 [anthony]
AE: Sounds good
12:55:29 [anthony]
... the comments have already been put on the list for some time
12:55:41 [anthony]
... so if any one had any issues with it they could start a discussion
12:55:53 [anthony]
... does everyone else agree with Doug's proposal?
12:55:58 [anthony]
ED: Sounds good to me
12:56:50 [anthony]
ACTION: Erik to collate together Cameron's and your own comments for XHR and send them to the WebApps list
12:56:50 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2059 - Collate together Cameron's and your own comments for XHR and send them to the WebApps list [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-06-17].
12:57:29 [anthony]
Topic: HTML + SVG discussion
12:58:05 [anthony]
AE: So has everyone had a chance to read Tony's proposals?
12:58:09 [anthony]
AG: I did
12:58:12 [anthony]
ED: Yup
12:58:14 [anthony]
AE: I did too
12:58:16 [anthony]
DS: Yes
12:58:40 [anthony]
AE: There a number of ways is to go through the document
12:59:03 [anthony]
... if you read it did you have comments for the list or are your saving them for the telcon?
12:59:12 [anthony]
DS: Not sure on the best way to proceed
12:59:35 [anthony]
AE: We could use Erik's email as a focus point for discussion
12:59:51 [anthony]
ED: Is Power Point format file the way we want to present it?
13:00:06 [anthony]
DS: Wrong format for the audience
13:00:19 [anthony]
... need to present it into spec format
13:00:40 [anthony]
TZ: I was thinking of changing to HTML format after presenting it in Power Point
13:01:19 [anthony]
... what I could do is convert it to PDF
13:01:25 [anthony]
DS: We need to rework it into HTML
13:01:30 [anthony]
... needs to be a single document
13:01:38 [anthony]
... instead of a bunch of pages
13:01:41 [anthony]
... I can help do that
13:02:30 [anthony]
AE: So that make sense having it in HTML
13:02:45 [anthony]
... so we know it will be in a different format
13:02:56 [anthony]
... do we continue reviewing this?
13:03:02 [anthony]
... or do we transcribe this to HTML?
13:03:11 [anthony]
DS: There is also Erik's spec text
13:03:26 [anthony]
... I guess we will be making a couple of different proposals
13:03:37 [anthony]
AE: What is Erik's spec text?
13:03:43 [anthony]
ED: I will send this out
13:03:56 [anthony]
s/this/the spec text/
13:04:38 [anthony]
AE: So let's just start with Erik's comments
13:05:08 [anthony]
... for the first comment
13:05:21 [anthony]
... - Slide "Interleaved Parsing of HTML - SVG"
13:05:51 [anthony]
... I guess it's just talking about the assertion of not being able to put HTML in SVG
13:06:00 [anthony]
... I agree with you there Erik
13:06:13 [anthony]
... So may it is just a matter for taking out the sentence
13:06:36 [anthony]
TZ: Not only is there complication from the parser side
13:06:43 [anthony]
... I would also think about rendering side of things
13:06:53 [anthony]
... I'm a little bit concerned about embedding HTML
13:07:04 [anthony]
... lets say we have HTML table inside a group
13:07:10 [anthony]
... and you start rotating the group
13:07:29 [anthony]
... what would you do with the table inside the group?
13:07:40 [anthony]
... this is the concern I have
13:07:53 [anthony]
... would it be a more complicated rendering model
13:08:04 [anthony]
... does this make sense to embed HTML in SVG
13:08:14 [anthony]
DS: Firstly there is a CSS transformations proposal by apple
13:08:27 [anthony]
... so I think they are very much interested way in bring in transformations
13:08:37 [anthony]
... in a compatible way with SVG
13:09:02 [anthony]
... I don't think that from the rendering perspective that it is a problem
13:09:18 [anthony]
... I don't think that particular rendering is the problem
13:09:27 [anthony]
... there may be other problems
13:09:43 [anthony]
ED: I suppose you could spec it like HTML would respect those elements
13:09:56 [anthony]
... I don't think it's a problem from the SVG point of view anyway
13:10:22 [anthony]
DS: I think the rendering problems are orthogonal to the parsing problems
13:10:48 [anthony]
... I actually have pretty good faith to work with us and the CDF working group
13:10:57 [anthony]
... to define the kind of rendering that we think is compelling
13:11:03 [anthony]
... that we think users are going to want to do
13:11:22 [anthony]
AE: So what I'm hearing is this sentence was to restrict the model
13:12:09 [anthony]
... we should probably put something to the effect that the HTML needs to be well formed when in the SVG
13:12:26 [anthony]
TZ: One thing I didn't quite get did you want me to incorporate those comments into the document?
13:12:46 [anthony]
... or Doug did you want to incorporate it into HTML
13:12:53 [anthony]
DS: However we want to do it is fine with me
13:13:16 [anthony]
AE: We probably need to get the HTML one done sooner than later
13:13:43 [anthony]
DS: If we can have somebody who wouldn't mind converting it to spec style HTML
13:13:47 [anthony]
... that would be good
13:13:52 [anthony]
ED: I guess I could do that
13:13:56 [anthony]
... bit pressed on time
13:14:10 [anthony]
DS: I have a feeling we are not acting in a timely manner
13:16:31 [anthony]
ACTION: Anthony to convert the Power Point slides for SVG in HTML to a HTML spec-ish kind of document
13:16:31 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2060 - Convert the Power Point slides for SVG in HTML to a HTML spec-ish kind of document [on Anthony Grasso - due 2008-06-17].
13:17:01 [anthony]
AE: To answer Tony's question any changes we make will go directly into the HTML document
13:17:40 [anthony]
... so is this our secondary proposal?
13:17:59 [anthony]
ED: So it's basically what we've started to discuss in the power point
13:18:06 [anthony]
AE: Should we start from this then?
13:18:19 [anthony]
ED: I think the Power Point document is a pretty good high level view of it
13:18:37 [anthony]
... from the HTML side of things they are looking for something like that
13:18:52 [anthony]
... based on the last draft that had SVG stuff in it
13:19:56 [anthony]
AG: Where to I put this HTML proposal?
13:20:06 [anthony]
DS: Could you just upload them into CVS?
13:20:16 [anthony]
ED: In the public one you mean?
13:20:29 [anthony]
DS: Yes
13:21:24 [anthony]
AE: I guess one of my concerns is that these things stay in sync with HTML
13:22:04 [anthony]
... mean track the changes in our HTML proposal
13:22:34 [anthony]
ED: Would be good to link to the latest draft of their spec
13:22:42 [anthony]
... and maybe use bits from it
13:23:19 [ed]
s/latest draft of their spec/last draft that had the svg stuff in it/
13:23:40 [anthony]
AE: As far as the first point goes we will specify rules for embedding HTML in SVG
13:23:45 [anthony]
... mainly that it has to be well formed
13:23:58 [anthony]
AE: For the next point it seems faily straight forward
13:24:07 [anthony]
... that's just something on your end Anthony
13:24:14 [anthony]
... to change these things to lower case
13:24:29 [anthony]
AG: Ok
13:24:41 [anthony]
AE: So the next one is the cascading parser structure
13:25:09 [anthony]
TZ: This was intended to be a high level diagram
13:25:36 [anthony]
... the reason why HTML parser is on the top because it is the primary one
13:25:45 [anthony]
... but maybe we need to restructure the diagram
13:25:49 [anthony]
... but I agree with you
13:26:01 [anthony]
... do we have any ideas how this should be structured?
13:26:08 [anthony]
ED: Could group all the parsers together
13:26:18 [anthony]
... maybe make on block a primary initial parser
13:26:22 [anthony]
... it might make it more clear
13:26:36 [anthony]
TZ: Do we want this tokeniser to be the primary parser?
13:26:49 [anthony]
ED: I guess it's not wrong to put it inbetween
13:26:57 [anthony]
...but it may not be required for all parsers
13:28:39 [ed]
For document format XYZ: file input -> tokenizer -> parser (html, css, svg, xml, javascript)
13:29:17 [ed]
and inside the parser box show the connections between different parsers
13:29:32 [anthony]
AE: So we are ok with putting the tokenizer step in between?
13:29:42 [anthony]
TZ: I had a page explaining it
13:29:53 [anthony]
... but Erik you had a problem with putting it in
13:30:32 [anthony]
ED: I had no problem with putting it in
13:30:46 [anthony]
... but I just wanted to point out that the current tokenizer is too limited for XML
13:31:10 [anthony]
AE: Tony are you ok to take another shot at the diagram
13:31:42 [anthony]
ACTION: zlatinski to Modify the cascading parser diagram
13:31:43 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2061 - Modify the cascading parser diagram [on Atanas (Tony) Zlatinski - due 2008-06-17].
13:32:01 [ed]
s/current tokenizer is too limited for XML/the way the tokenizer is specced in HTML5 makes it too limited for proper use for XML/
13:32:14 [anthony]
AE: The next comment there from Erik is the content provider
13:33:02 [anthony]
TZ: I agree the comment from Erik that "content provider" is not quite clear\
13:33:21 [anthony]
... language handler or content handler sound good to me
13:33:47 [anthony]
AE: Are there other terms used in the HTML 5 document that is familiar to them
13:34:33 [anthony]
TZ: It's a particular plug to handle a particular language
13:34:48 [anthony]
DS: I'd say content handler
13:34:55 [anthony]
... or sub-parser
13:35:01 [anthony]
TZ: Content handler sounds good too
13:35:07 [anthony]
AE: Sounds reasonable me too
13:35:55 [anthony]
... Anthony can you change content provider to content handler
13:35:59 [anthony]
AG: Ok
13:36:16 [anthony]
AE: The next one we've kind of discussed already
13:36:27 [anthony]
TZ: Do you have any idea how to address this problem
13:37:04 [anthony]
ED: You don't need a special tokenizer to handle each language
13:37:37 [anthony]
... if you read the HTML 5 spec
13:37:51 [anthony]
... the tokenzier throws away information about the casing
13:38:17 [anthony]
... You could put an additional sentence saying as long as the tokenizer has to keep enough information to do both HTML and XML parsing on the output
13:38:52 [anthony]
AE: Makes sense to me
13:39:08 [anthony]
... can keep sentence about special consideration
13:39:15 [anthony]
... Tony does that sound fine?
13:39:17 [anthony]
TZ: Yes
13:39:35 [anthony]
AE: Next one is slide for element identification
13:39:43 [anthony]
TZ: Maybe this part wasn't quite clear
13:40:15 [anthony]
... this is from the perspective of how you switch to a particular language
13:40:31 [anthony]
... we have to kind of reshuffle things around to make it more clear
13:41:01 [anthony]
ED: It still isn't clear enough to me what happens when it switches
13:41:12 [anthony]
... does it switch at the element you started parsing on
13:41:25 [anthony]
... or does it continue until it reaches something it can't handle
13:41:32 [anthony]
... that's my question
13:42:00 [anthony]
AE: Tony is that something we should discuss more
13:42:14 [anthony]
TZ: This is probably one of the major issues
13:42:25 [anthony]
... I could probably restructure this bit to make it more clear
13:42:53 [anthony]
ED: Which element you're currently in my define what the element is
13:42:57 [anthony]
... in a HTML a tag
13:43:02 [anthony]
... or an SVG a tag
13:43:54 [anthony]
s/HTML a tag/HTML <a> tag/
13:44:04 [anthony]
s/SVG a tag/SVG <a> tag/
13:45:38 [anthony]
TZ: From this perspective going back from the SVG to HTML
13:45:43 [anthony]
ED: That's what we need to define
13:45:46 [anthony]
... when to stop
13:45:53 [anthony]
... when to switch back
13:46:11 [anthony]
... in my opinion is we find an SVG element we switch to XML parsing
13:46:28 [anthony]
... and when we find the closing svg element we switch to HTML parsing
13:47:53 [anthony]
AE: Erik when you say XML well formed HTML in SVG
13:48:10 [anthony]
... is that XHTML or HTML that is well formed to XML
13:48:18 [anthony]
ED: As long as it's well formed
13:48:32 [anthony]
AE: What about casing, upper and lower mixture
13:48:44 [anthony]
ED: As long as the start and end tags match
13:49:18 [anthony]
TZ: I haven't done any examples or discussed it in any detail
13:49:29 [anthony]
... I can look into this section into more detail
13:49:36 [anthony]
... I could put a bit more work into that and make it more clear
13:49:54 [anthony]
AE: So this is the element identification section
13:50:04 [anthony]
... that's what you're talking about reworking those sections?
13:50:51 [anthony]
ACTION: zlantinski to Revisit the element identification slides based on our comments
13:50:51 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - zlantinski
13:51:33 [anthony]
ED: I'm just noting if you want tag soup HTML and SVG interleaved in away
13:52:00 [anthony]
... it would work in their proposal but would not be conformant XML
13:52:13 [ed]
s/in away/in any way you like/
13:52:27 [anthony]
AE: I noticed some parts are yellow, Anthony that's where you made changes?
13:52:30 [anthony]
AG: Yes
13:52:40 [ed]
s/conformant XML/conformant XML on the source level/
13:52:51 [anthony]
AE: Continue with the Jave script content slide
13:53:42 [anthony]
TZ: You don't see any cases where you'd like to have separate ECMA script
13:54:03 [anthony]
... like have a separate ECMA script context
13:54:03 [ed]
<object data="some.svg"> will give you a separate script context
13:54:54 [anthony]
TZ: The document implied that the content handler would have a separate ECMA script handler
13:55:01 [anthony]
... you are saying that they should have the same context
13:55:05 [anthony]
... in the same DOM
13:55:19 [anthony]
... as soon as you get to a new content handler you make a new context
13:56:00 [anthony]
... so practically you're saying the control is from the child content not from the parent content
13:56:11 [anthony]
ED: Just from looking at how it works today, you get the same DOM
13:56:30 [anthony]
... I would expect it to be the same from HTML as it is in XHTML
13:56:45 [anthony]
s/from HTML/for HTML/
13:56:53 [anthony]
ED: I think you should build the same DOM
13:57:09 [anthony]
TZ: I should change the section to make it clear that they have to be the same one
13:57:22 [anthony]
... and that the parent passes this down to the child
13:57:31 [anthony]
... this being the context
13:57:50 [anthony]
AE: Next one is CSS parsing
13:58:25 [ChrisL]
ChrisL has joined #svg
13:59:05 [anthony]
TZ: If we always enforce using the same document then we should use the same CSS rules
13:59:12 [anthony]
AE: Yes so it's the same as above
13:59:49 [anthony]
... do we need to discuss that section more or can we move on?
14:00:19 [anthony]
TZ: With regards to SVG widgets section
14:01:18 [anthony]
... just clarifying your comment Erik
14:02:07 [anthony]
AE: So you could have some CSS styling in the SVG but it will apply to any node in the document not just the SVG
14:02:24 [anthony]
... because it's a single context
14:03:20 [anthony]
ED: I think the idea of having SVG widgets that provide alternative recognition for SVG
14:03:33 [anthony]
... sounds a bit like XSLT or XSBL
14:03:46 [ed]
s/XSBL/XBL/
14:04:01 [anthony]
TZ: HTML doesn't have name spaces, so you put all the comment information inside the widget
14:04:17 [anthony]
ED: Could do that today with an XSL style sheet
14:04:30 [anthony]
TZ: So you're saying there is no point to talk about widgets at all?
14:04:37 [anthony]
ED: That's my opinion
14:04:46 [anthony]
TZ: Do you mind sending me an example
14:04:54 [anthony]
... of the concept
14:04:56 [anthony]
ED: Sure
14:05:37 [Zakim]
-aemmons
14:05:44 [Zakim]
-zlatinski
14:05:52 [Zakim]
-anthony
14:05:58 [Zakim]
-ed
14:06:00 [Zakim]
GA_SVGWG()8:30AM has ended
14:06:04 [Zakim]
Attendees were aemmons, ed, anthony, Shepazu, zlatinski
14:06:15 [anthony]
Zakim, bye
14:06:15 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #svg
14:06:21 [anthony]
RRSAgent, make minutes
14:06:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/10-svg-minutes.html anthony
14:18:32 [MikeSmith]
MikeSmith has joined #svg