14:55:53 RRSAgent has joined #rif 14:55:53 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/06/10-rif-irc 14:56:01 zakim, this will be rif 14:56:01 ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes 14:56:18 Meeting: RIF Telecon 10-June-2008 14:56:25 Chair: Chris Welty 14:56:40 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Jun/0023.html 14:56:52 ChrisW has changed the topic to: 10 June RIF Telecon Agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Jun/0023.html 14:57:07 rrsagent, make minutes 14:57:07 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/10-rif-minutes.html ChrisW 14:57:23 zakim, clear agenda 14:57:24 agenda cleared 14:57:29 agenda+ Admin 14:57:33 agenda+ Liason 14:57:38 agenda+ F2F11 14:57:43 agenda+ Action Review 14:57:49 agenda+ Public Comments 14:57:57 agenda+ UCR 14:58:05 agenda+ Acknowledgements 14:58:09 agenda+ DTB 14:58:14 mdean has joined #rif 14:58:15 agenda+ AOB 14:58:16 csma has joined #rif 14:59:35 SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started 14:59:42 +Mike_Dean 14:59:57 rrsagent, make logs public 15:00:31 +[IBM] 15:00:37 zakim, ibm is temporarily me 15:00:37 +ChrisW; got it 15:00:51 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:00:51 On the phone I see Mike_Dean, ??P1, ChrisW 15:00:51 zakim, who is on the call? 15:00:52 On the phone I see Mike_Dean, ??P1, ChrisW 15:00:59 zakim, ??P1 is me 15:01:01 +csma; got it 15:01:14 StellaMitchell has joined #rif 15:01:29 josb has joined #rif 15:01:45 zakim, mute me 15:01:45 csma should now be muted 15:01:47 +josb 15:01:47 AdrianP has joined #rif 15:02:15 RRSAgent, pointer? 15:02:15 See http://www.w3.org/2008/06/10-rif-irc#T15-02-15 15:02:24 +Sandro 15:02:26 +[IBM] 15:02:43 StellaMitchell can you scribe today? 15:02:44 zakim, ibm is temporarily me 15:02:44 +StellaMitchell; got it 15:02:47 yes 15:02:50 thakns 15:02:53 Scribe: StellaMitchell 15:03:16 zakim, who is here? 15:03:21 IgorMozetic has joined #rif 15:03:26 On the phone I see Mike_Dean, csma (muted), ChrisW, josb, Sandro, StellaMitchell 15:03:40 On IRC I see IgorMozetic, AdrianP, josb, StellaMitchell, csma, mdean, RRSAgent, ChrisW, sandro, trackbot, Harold, Zakim 15:03:45 +AdrianP 15:03:54 Zakim, mute me 15:04:05 AdrianP should now be muted 15:04:50 AxelPolleres has joined #rif 15:05:26 +[IPcaller] 15:05:29 http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/F2F10_Minutes 15:05:37 +Gary_Hallmark 15:05:46 PROPOSED: accept F2F10 minutes 15:05:46 zakim, [IPcaller] is me 15:05:46 +IgorMozetic; got it 15:05:48 cw: any objections to approving the f2f10 minutes? 15:05:50 zakim, mute me 15:05:50 IgorMozetic should now be muted 15:06:03 RESOLVED: accept F2F10 minutes 15:06:17 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Jun/att-0021/RIF_Telecon_minutes__3-Jun-08.htm 15:06:24 cw: any objections to approving the minutes from last week's telcon? 15:06:35 PROPOSED: accept 3-Jun telecon minutes 15:06:44 RESOLVED: accept 3-Jun telecon minutes 15:07:05 cw: any agenda ammendments? 15:07:06 zakim, take up item 2 15:07:07 agendum 2. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW] 15:07:26 cw: Adrian, Jos, Mike, any news? 15:07:42 MikeD: nothing from OWL 15:07:44 nothing 15:07:56 +[NRCC] 15:08:01 cw: sandro, has the owl group discussed our responses? 15:08:03 +??P52 15:08:06 sandro: I don't think so 15:08:28 zakim, [NRCC] is me 15:08:28 +Harold; got it 15:08:29 cw: what about the joint document about something like rif:text ? 15:08:43 sandro: nothing has happened on thatg 15:09:14 cw: axel, did you agree to work on this? 15:09:35 Hassan has joined #rif 15:10:04 + +27226aaaa 15:10:18 axel: I think we were going to get the first working draft out with the current vefrsion of rif: text, and then after that reconcile with owl's treatment 15:10:42 zakim, take up item 3 15:10:42 agendum 3. "F2F11" taken up [from ChrisW] 15:10:47 remark: Can the England access number also be made public in the agenda (England +44.117.370.6152), are hteir any other accesss number we haven't got? 15:10:57 ACTION: Axel to work with Jie Bao (of OWL-WG) to put together draft on rif:text/owl:internationalizedText, due 27 June 2008 15:10:57 Created ACTION-521 - Work with Jie Bao (of OWL-WG) to put together draft on rif:text/owl:internationalizedText, due 27 June 2008 [on Axel Polleres - due 2008-06-17]. 15:11:33 cw: email last week asking if people could make meeting sept 7-8 in either Boston or New York 15:11:57 I will not attend either anyway 15:11:59 cw: does anyone here have a problem with that date? 15:12:00 access number of France: +33.4.89.06.34.99 15:12:33 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:12:33 On the phone I see AdrianP (muted), IgorMozetic (muted), Gary_Hallmark, Harold, AxelPolleres, Hassan (muted), Mike_Dean, csma (muted), ChrisW, josb, Sandro, StellaMitchell 15:12:40 -Gary_Hallmark 15:12:50 I definitly can't make that date... other obligations the week 7-11. 15:12:56 garyh: anyone still interested in late august in portland? 15:13:13 USA 15:13:28 yes 15:13:29 possibly 15:13:30 cw: late august doesn't work for me 15:13:36 possibly by phone 15:13:39 s/of France/of Zakim in France/ 15:13:52 zakim, take up item 4 15:13:52 agendum 4. "Action Review" taken up [from ChrisW] 15:13:59 cw: axel, could you attend part of the meeting by phone if it were on sept 7-8? 15:14:22 reminder people can use http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/users/my for their own actions 15:14:46 ACTION-519 closed 15:14:46 ACTION-519 Start work on response to http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Response_to_PPS3 closed 15:15:02 I will 15:15:22 PaulVincent has joined #rif 15:15:46 ACTION-518 continued 15:16:01 ACTION-516 continued 15:16:16 ACTION-517 continjued 15:16:24 ACTION-514 dropped 15:17:05 ACTION-515 continued 15:17:26 Can someone point me to a mail or draft page where owl:{| 15:17:26 | style="background-color: #80FF80" rowspan="1" colspan="1" | 15:17:26 Editor's note: Although rif:iri is not a datatype, I left conversions from and to rif:iris in the list of cast functions, to cover use cases in the context of RDF where you want to extract a string from an IRI denoting an RDF resource and vice versa. 15:17:26 See also the use case mentioned in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Mar/0011.html 15:17:27 |} 15:17:32 oops. 15:17:34 sorry 15:17:35 ACTION-512 continued 15:17:42 done 15:17:48 ACTION-511 closed 15:17:48 ACTION-511 Change REMOVE to RETRACT closed 15:17:49 ack csma 15:17:58 Can someone point me to a mail or draft page where owl:internationalizedText is referenced? 15:18:22 ... or to an email. 15:18:26 ACTION-510 pending discussion 15:18:40 ACTION-508 closed 15:18:40 ACTION-508 Work out policies for pick (refraction, recency, priority, sequential) closed 15:19:24 ACTION-507 continued 15:20:11 ACTION-506 continued 15:20:29 +Gary_Hallmark 15:20:34 ACTION-505 continued 15:21:09 ACTION-504 closed 15:21:09 ACTION-504 Add XML 1.0 statement to BLD closed 15:21:18 ACTION-503 closed 15:21:18 ACTION-503 Update BNF with base directive for relative IRI handling in PS closed 15:21:51 ACTION-502 continued 15:22:27 ACTION-501 closed 15:22:27 ACTION-501 Put text about "metadata should survive roundtripping out of RIF and back again" in Conformance section of BLD closed 15:23:07 harold: mk and I both made many updates but we weren't coordinating, so used different terminology 15:23:19 ACTION-499 pending discussion 15:23:41 ACTION-497 continued 15:23:52 ACTION-496 closed 15:23:52 ACTION-496 Update all examples for Presentation Syntax and XML syntax for curies and entities. Also add Prefix to presentation syntax. closed 15:23:56 Zakim, unute me 15:23:57 I don't understand 'unute me', AdrianP 15:24:37 Zakim, unmute me 15:24:37 AdrianP should no longer be muted 15:24:50 Yes, action-496 is done 15:25:22 ACTION-495 closed 15:25:22 ACTION-495 Respond to Dan2 (about well-formedness) closed 15:25:55 csma: where in the document is xml syntax for curies and entities defined? 15:26:12 harold: (points to an example 6) 15:26:47 cw: presentation syntax should not have curies in them 15:26:54 Are the contents of the IRI declarations for PS complete and fine? 15:26:55 sorry I ment action 495 is done 15:26:56 Zakim, mute me 15:26:56 AdrianP should now be muted 15:27:01 harold: I used prefixes 15:27:58 jos: maybe we should mention that entities are optional, and also in example 6 we should expand one of the entities 15:28:03 +1 jos, have one of the prefixes not turn into an entity, to show the correspondance is optional 15:28:03 harold: ok, will make that change 15:28:12 Zakim, unmute me 15:28:12 AdrianP should no longer be muted 15:28:28 q+ 15:28:55 Zakim, mute me 15:28:55 AdrianP should now be muted 15:28:56 ACTION 494 is complete 15:28:56 Sorry, couldn't find user - 494 15:29:07 ACTION-493 is complete 15:29:18 ACTION-492 continued 15:29:19 q- 15:29:25 ACTION-490 complete 15:29:50 ACTION-489 complete 15:30:46 ACTION-486 complete 15:31:02 ACTION-488 complete 15:31:14 ACTION-487 continued 15:32:31 http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/61 15:33:03 cw: editor's note (in action-487 should link to above issue) 15:33:08 ACTION-485 complete 15:33:15 ACTION-483 complete 15:33:48 ACTION-482 continued 15:34:51 cw: re: action-482 we discussed that dtb would be a comprehensive list of all data types, and when defining a dialect you would choose from those 15:35:01 ACTION-454 complete 15:35:09 ACTION-475 continued 15:35:41 ACTION-152 continued 15:36:31 cw: a number of resolutions (from f2f10) didn't have actions associated with them, so I want to confirm that they are done 15:36:46 cw: axel, subtypes? 15:37:09 axel: yes, I made the update in dtb 15:37:44 harold: bld doesn't require any update for this item 15:38:40 cw: my understanding that dtb would be a menu of data types and builtins, and so bld would have to add a paragraph saying which of those from dtb that bld uses 15:39:43 harold: ok, I understand 15:40:24 cw: and so the new section needs an "at risk" comment on rif:text 15:40:47 ACTION: Harold to ask Michael to update BLD with the DTB references, including "at risk" for rif:text 15:40:47 Created ACTION-522 - Ask Michael to update BLD with the DTB references, including \"at risk\" for rif:text [on Harold Boley - due 2008-06-17]. 15:41:40 cw: another resultion was that we would add >= <=, etc to dtb 15:41:57 != 15:42:02 axel: this is done 15:42:15 -IgorMozetic 15:42:33 axel: these were added for each data type 15:43:04 cw: does the bld just need to list data types and that implies that it supports all builtins for that data types? 15:43:08 sandro: yes, I think so 15:43:28 cw: so adding those predicates wouldn't impact the bld text 15:44:01 zakim, mute me 15:44:01 csma should now be muted 15:45:06 cw: another resultion was to remove symbol space ids in rif 15:45:28 s/resultion/resolution/ 15:46:09 jos: it means symbol space ids must be iris 15:46:15 axel: this is done 15:46:40 modify Presentation Syntax to include "Const ::= STRING" (allowing "chat" as short for "chat"^^xs:string). 15:47:54 axel: harold, you can just copy updagted const grammar from dtb 15:48:05 very good! 15:48:09 Zakim, mute me 15:48:09 AdrianP was already muted, AdrianP 15:48:42 cw: also, a resolution about syntax for rif:local 15:49:00 axel: yes, these updates are made 15:49:26 cw: we had a resultion do add xsd: double 15:49:31 axel: done 15:49:54 cw: there was a resolution on xml syntax for ordered=yes 15:49:56 harold: done 15:50:20 cw: resolution to point people to dublin core for metadata properties 15:50:23 harold: done 15:50:35 zakim, list agenda 15:50:35 I see 9 items remaining on the agenda: 15:50:36 cw: any other discussion on actions? 15:50:37 1. Admin [from ChrisW] 15:50:37 2. Liason [from ChrisW] 15:50:38 3. F2F11 [from ChrisW] 15:50:38 4. Action Review [from ChrisW] 15:50:39 5. Public Comments [from ChrisW] 15:50:39 6. UCR [from ChrisW] 15:50:41 7. Acknowledgements [from ChrisW] 15:50:42 8. DTB [from ChrisW] 15:50:42 zakim, take up item 5 15:50:44 9. AOB [from ChrisW] 15:50:46 agendum 5. "Public Comments" taken up [from ChrisW] 15:51:06 cw: this is about the response to peter's response 15:51:06 ack csma 15:51:54 cw: this is the only outstanding one 15:52:10 cw: jos, do you want to discuss your response to peter here? 15:52:12 jos: no 15:52:26 zakim, mute me 15:52:26 csma should now be muted 15:52:28 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-comments/2008Jun/0004.html 15:52:54 zakim, take up item 6 15:52:54 agendum 6. "UCR" taken up [from ChrisW] 15:52:56 jos: dan c responded to my response, and said that it addressed his concerns (although he found it counter intuitive) 15:53:08 Zakim, unmute me 15:53:08 AdrianP should no longer be muted 15:53:16 http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/UCR#Requirements 15:53:33 http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/UCR#OWL_data 15:53:44 adrian: last telcon we discussed requirements and stopped at the owl data requirement 15:54:07 cw: should we continue through the rest of the list? 15:54:10 adrian: yes 15:54:29 cw: we were a little stalled on coverage (5.1.6) and there was some discussion on the mailing list 15:55:08 sandro: no one objected to the last text that I proposed 15:55:16 http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/UCR#Rule_language_coverage 15:56:33 sandro: that section was updated since last week, but it is more verbose than we need 15:57:33 cw: it needs to be reworded using standard language of requirements 15:57:59 The RIF dialect targetting a group of similar rule languages must support, at a minimum, interchange of rules using all the features which are common to all the major rule languages in that group. 15:58:19 ok sound good and compact 15:58:22 (as full replacement for 5.1.6) 15:58:37 cw: I'd change "must" to "should" 15:59:23 sandro: all the other requirements use must, except for the implementability requirement 15:59:40 cw: but this (5.1.6) is a fuzzy requirement 16:00:19 "must" 16:00:35 Straw poll: prefer must/should in 5.1.6 16:00:38 strawpoll: must vs should on that 5.1.6 text 16:00:40 0 16:00:40 0 16:00:46 +1 for must 16:00:51 don't care 16:00:54 should 16:00:57 +/- must/should 16:01:01 +0.8 for must 16:01:06 0 16:01:13 or could be should/must 16:01:17 +1 for mould 16:01:18 +1 for mould 16:01:19 the general requirements should describe fundamental properties 16:01:27 -Gary_Hallmark 16:01:27 not mould, mold 16:02:12 RIF must cover OWL knowledge bases as data where compatible with RIF semantics. 16:02:26 These people from the US have this tendency to drop "u"s from English words... 16:02:32 requirement 5.2.7 looks fine 16:02:50 s/requirement/cw:requirement/ 16:02:57 RIF must cover RDF triples as data where compatible with RIF semantics. 16:03:06 RIF must cover RDF triples as data where compatible with Phase 1 semantics. 16:03:31 PROPOSED: reword 5.2.8 to "RIF semantics" 16:03:46 RESOLVED: reword 5.2.8 to "RIF semantics" 16:04:15 cw: requirement 5.2.9 16:04:51 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Jun/0006.html 16:05:22 sandro: I commented on this requirement in the above email - I don't know what this requirement means 16:05:49 The semantics of a RIF document must be uniquely determined from the contents of the document, without out-of-band data. 16:06:19 The semantics of a RIF document must be uniquely determined by the content of the document, without out-of-band data. 16:06:24 makes sense 16:06:27 Re 5.2.9: The XML Schema's location will differentiate between dialects. 16:06:44 PROPOSED: replace 5.2.9 with re-wording: "The semantics of a RIF document must be uniquely determined by the content of the document, without out-of-band data." 16:06:50 +1 16:06:52 +1 16:06:56 +1 16:06:56 +1 16:06:59 +1 16:07:06 RESOLVED: replace 5.2.9 with re-wording: "The semantics of a RIF document must be uniquely determined by the content of the document, without out-of-band data." 16:07:21 cw: requirement 5.2.10 - fine 16:07:39 cw; requirement 5.2.11 - fine 16:07:52 cw: requirement 5.2.12 16:08:02 sandro: change 'should' to 'must' 16:08:08 +1 16:08:09 PROPOSED: in 5.2.12 change to "must" support ability to merge rule sets 16:08:10 +1 16:08:11 +1 16:08:12 +1 16:08:13 +1 16:08:17 ack csma 16:08:47 RESOLVED: in 5.2.12 change to "must" support ability to merge rule sets 16:08:50 zakim, mute me 16:08:50 csma should now be muted 16:09:13 PROPOSED 5.2.13 change "will" to "must" 16:09:16 PROPOSED: 5.2.13 change "will" to "must" 16:09:46 In BLD rule sets are called groups. 16:10:05 +1 16:10:06 PROPOSED: 5.2.13 change "will" to "must" & remove parenthetical comment 16:10:06 groups can be identified with our new (* ... *) syntax. 16:10:07 +1 16:10:11 +1 16:10:16 +1 16:10:16 +1 16:10:18 +1 16:10:21 RESOLVED: 5.2.13 change "will" to "must" & remove parenthetical comment 16:10:56 RESOLVED: 5.2.13 change "will" to "must" & remove parenthetical comment: RIF must support the identification of rule sets. 16:11:06 cw: 5.3.1 16:11:09 GaryHallmark has joined #rif 16:11:23 sandro: we don't clarify what we mean by "objective" 16:11:49 "Objectives" to "Anticipated Future Requirements" 16:11:50 ? 16:12:07 ack csma 16:12:12 PROPOSED: drop 5.3 Objectives 16:12:18 +Gary_Hallmark 16:12:54 harold: can we say more about the 2 use cases that motivated it? 16:12:58 +1 on dropping this - "future requirement" means nothing as far as we are concerned 16:13:42 csma: frame or atom could point directly to a part of an xml document based on an xml schema or dtb 16:14:03 DTB could have an XML-'open' data type: it would only need to be well-formed, not valide wrt our XSD -- supported by XSD. 16:14:13 ...using xml schema as data models in rif documents we can use that capability to use an xml document as data 16:14:17 s/dtb/DTD/ 16:14:41 cw: does anyone object to dropping this reqjuirement? 16:16:03 s/DTB could have an XML-'open' data type: it would only need to be well-formed, not valide wrt our XSD -- supported by XSD./DTB could have an XML-'open' data type: it would only need to be well-formed, not valid wrt our XSD -- such 'any' types are supported by XSD./ 16:17:37 adrian, csma: I would like to keep this requirement 16:18:49 sandro: why are we choosing to call out this one of many possible future requirements? 16:18:55 "5.3.1 XML data" is there because of many XML-based appls, incl. Web Services. 16:19:28 csma: I think it's in a separate section because sandro said it's a phase 2 requirement 16:19:48 sandro: one requirement for last call is that you met all your requirements 16:20:00 cw: change 'must' to 'should'? 16:20:35 cw: do you have reasonable expectation that this req would be met by prd? 16:20:38 csma: yes 16:20:40 Yes, PRD could have such an XML-'open' data type. 16:20:46 The implementation of this requirement in the schema is very easy 16:21:04 cw: so, I think it can be a regular requirment with 'must' changed to 'should' 16:21:23 PROPOSED: Maybe 5.3.1 be 5.2.14 and make it a SHOULD instead of MUST. 16:21:38 PROPOSED: Move 5.3.1 be 5.2.14 and make it a SHOULD instead of MUST. (support XML as data) 16:21:45 +0 16:21:48 +0.5 16:21:49 +1 16:21:51 +1 16:21:52 0 16:21:56 +0 16:21:58 +1 16:22:03 RESOLVED: Move 5.3.1 be 5.2.14 and make it a SHOULD instead of MUST. (support XML as data) 16:22:13 +1 16:22:44 action: adrianP to update UCR to reflect the above resolutions 16:22:44 Sorry, couldn't find user - adrianP 16:23:03 ACTION: Adrian to update UCR to reflect resolutions in today's meeting (2008-06-10) 16:23:03 Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - Adrian 16:23:03 Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. agiurca, apaschke) 16:23:15 ACTION: apaschke to update UCR to reflect resolutions in today's meeting (2008-06-10) 16:23:15 Created ACTION-523 - Update UCR to reflect resolutions in today's meeting (2008-06-10) [on Adrian Paschke - due 2008-06-17]. 16:23:24 cw: adrian, anything else to discuss on ucr? 16:24:01 zakim, list agenda 16:24:01 I see 9 items remaining on the agenda: 16:24:02 1. Admin [from ChrisW] 16:24:02 2. Liason [from ChrisW] 16:24:03 3. F2F11 [from ChrisW] 16:24:03 4. Action Review [from ChrisW] 16:24:04 5. Public Comments [from ChrisW] 16:24:04 6. UCR [from ChrisW] 16:24:06 7. Acknowledgements [from ChrisW] 16:24:08 8. DTB [from ChrisW] 16:24:10