IRC log of bpwg on 2008-06-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:58:15 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #bpwg
13:58:15 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/06/10-bpwg-irc
13:58:17 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs public
13:58:17 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #bpwg
13:58:19 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be BPWG
13:58:19 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see MWI_BPWG(CTTF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
13:58:20 [trackbot]: Meeting: Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference
13:58:20 [trackbot]: Date: 10 June 2008
13:58:27 [francois]: Chair: francois
13:58:57 [hgerlach]: hgerlach has joined #bpwg
13:59:28 [francois]: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2008Jun/0020.html
13:59:39 [francois]: Regrets: Pontus, Bryan
14:00:13 [francois]: zakim, code?
14:00:13 [Zakim]: the conference code is 2283 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), francois
14:00:29 [Zakim]: MWI_BPWG(CTTF)10:00AM has now started
14:00:36 [Zakim]: +Francois
14:00:46 [Zakim]: +Heiko
14:03:33 [rob]: rob has joined #bpwg
14:04:10 [Zakim]: + +0207287aaaa
14:04:24 [rob]: zakim, aaaa is me
14:04:24 [Zakim]: +rob; got it
14:07:23 [hgerlach]: +1
14:10:19 [francois]: ScribeNick: rob
14:10:22 [francois]: Scribe: rob
14:11:19 [francois]: Topic: New draft
14:11:26 [francois]: -> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/CT/editors-drafts/Guidelines/080606 draft version 1k
14:11:48 [rob]: francois: everybody please review and send comments!
14:11:56 [SeanP]: SeanP has joined #bpwg
14:12:08 [rob]: ... it's not the candidate rec yet but it is getting close
14:12:38 [rob]: s/candidate rec/candidate for last call/
14:12:50 [francois]: Topic: Quick pass on ACTIONS
14:13:02 [francois]: -> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/products/12 opened actions
14:13:29 [Zakim]: +SeanP
14:13:54 [francois]: ACTION-614?
14:13:55 [trackbot]: ACTION-614 -- Jo Rabin to restart discussion on the TAG finding (ISSUE-222) on the public mailing list -- due 2007-12-20 -- PENDINGREVIEW
14:13:55 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/614
14:14:19 [francois]: close ACTION-614
14:14:20 [trackbot]: ACTION-614 Restart discussion on the TAG finding (ISSUE-222) on the public mailing list closed
14:14:24 [francois]: ACTION-632?
14:14:24 [trackbot]: ACTION-632 -- Bryan Sullivan to propose some recommendation on user-agent detection from a proxy and browser's (format) point of view -- due 2008-02-05 -- OPEN
14:14:24 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/632
14:15:16 [francois]: close ACTION-632
14:15:16 [trackbot]: ACTION-632 Propose some recommendation on user-agent detection from a proxy and browser's (format) point of view closed
14:15:19 [francois]: ACTION-673?
14:15:19 [trackbot]: ACTION-673 -- Aaron Kemp to see if he can get some figures that scope the problem of bogus 200 responses -- due 2008-03-04 -- OPEN
14:15:19 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/673
14:16:03 [rob]: francois: still needs resolution from me
14:16:16 [francois]: ACTION: daoust to ping Aaron on scoping bogus 200 responses
14:16:16 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-768 - Ping Aaron on scoping bogus 200 responses [on François Daoust - due 2008-06-17].
14:16:25 [francois]: ACTION-678?
14:16:25 [trackbot]: ACTION-678 -- Sean Patterson to raise and issue on the distinction between a CT proxy and (say) Opera Mini -- due 2008-03-10 -- OPEN
14:16:25 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/678
14:16:52 [francois]: -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2008Jun/0019.html Sean's thread
14:16:54 [rob]: sean: replied by email yesterday
14:17:41 [rob]: francois: leave the action open today so others can read the response
14:18:15 [francois]: ACTION-680?
14:18:15 [trackbot]: ACTION-680 -- Robert Finean to provide a pseudo-code example of form transformation for CT document. -- due 2008-03-10 -- OPEN
14:18:15 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/680
14:19:47 [francois]: close ACTION-680
14:19:47 [trackbot]: ACTION-680 Provide a pseudo-code example of form transformation for CT document. closed
14:19:51 [francois]: ACTION-703?
14:19:52 [trackbot]: ACTION-703 -- Jo Rabin to draft a communication with the TAG based on ISSUE-222 -- due 2008-03-11 -- OPEN
14:19:52 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/703
14:19:56 [rob]: francois: the need for this illustration has passed
14:20:07 [francois]: ACTION-706?
14:20:07 [trackbot]: ACTION-706 -- Jo Rabin to reword 2.5.1 along the lines proposed by Francois -- due 2008-03-18 -- PENDINGREVIEW
14:20:07 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/706
14:20:29 [francois]: close ACTION-706
14:20:29 [trackbot]: ACTION-706 Reword 2.5.1 along the lines proposed by Francois closed
14:20:35 [francois]: ACTION-709?
14:20:35 [trackbot]: ACTION-709 -- François Daoust to write some examples for 2.5.3 -- due 2008-03-18 -- OPEN
14:20:35 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/709
14:20:42 [rob]: francois: jo's done the rewording
14:20:59 [francois]: close ACTION-709
14:20:59 [trackbot]: ACTION-709 Write some examples for 2.5.3 closed
14:21:04 [francois]: ACTION-710?
14:21:04 [trackbot]: ACTION-710 -- François Daoust to test the Effect of HEAD Requests on Various Servers -- due 2008-03-13 -- OPEN
14:21:04 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/710
14:21:37 [rob]: francois: has done the analysis, not written the report
14:21:48 [francois]: ACTION-711?
14:21:49 [trackbot]: ACTION-711 -- Soonho Lee to provide Feedback on Content Transformation Document -- due 2008-03-13 -- OPEN
14:21:49 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/711
14:22:07 [francois]: ACTION: daoust to ping Soonho on providing feedback
14:22:07 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-769 - Ping Soonho on providing feedback [on François Daoust - due 2008-06-17].
14:22:14 [francois]: ACTION-723?
14:22:14 [trackbot]: ACTION-723 -- François Daoust to raise discussion on session settings vs persistent settings for 2.5.1 and 2.5.3 -- due 2008-04-01 -- OPEN
14:22:14 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/723
14:22:17 [rob]: ... conclusion is that a GET happens inside the server no matter that the HTTP request is a HEAD
14:23:16 [rob]: francois: at end of 3.2.1 still have the option for persistent or semi-persistent options
14:23:33 [francois]: ACTION: jo to remove "semi-persistent" in 3.2.3
14:23:33 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-770 - Remove \"semi-persistent\" in 3.2.3 [on Jo Rabin - due 2008-06-17].
14:23:38 [francois]: close ACTION-723
14:23:39 [trackbot]: ACTION-723 Raise discussion on session settings vs persistent settings for 2.5.1 and 2.5.3 closed
14:23:46 [francois]: ACTION-724?
14:23:46 [trackbot]: ACTION-724 -- Jo Rabin to raise discussion on list as to clarification of 2.5.2 "In cases where user preferences contradict server preferences, server preferences prevail, except where the user specifically requires their preferences to over-rule those of the server." -- due 2008-04-01 -- OPEN
14:23:46 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/724
14:24:31 [francois]: ACTION-732?
14:24:31 [trackbot]: ACTION-732 -- Jo Rabin to raise an issue on 4.4 of CT draft 1j noting that HTTPS links should only be rewritten with HTTPS links and not HTTP links -- due 2008-04-17 -- OPEN
14:24:31 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/732
14:24:52 [francois]: ACTION-735?
14:24:52 [trackbot]: ACTION-735 -- François Daoust to raise discussion on the mailing-list and propose alternatives re linearization/zoom capabilities and the relation with CT-proxy -- due 2008-04-22 -- OPEN
14:24:52 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/735
14:25:17 [francois]: close ACTION-735
14:25:17 [trackbot]: ACTION-735 Raise discussion on the mailing-list and propose alternatives re linearization/zoom capabilities and the relation with CT-proxy closed
14:25:28 [francois]: ACTION-738?
14:25:28 [trackbot]: ACTION-738 -- Jo Rabin to create text about transforming proxies generating valid documents and propose it in next draft -- due 2008-04-29 -- OPEN
14:25:28 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/738
14:26:37 [hgerlach]: +1
14:26:54 [francois]: close ACTION-738
14:26:54 [trackbot]: ACTION-738 Create text about transforming proxies generating valid documents and propose it in next draft closed
14:26:59 [francois]: ACTION-740?
14:26:59 [trackbot]: ACTION-740 -- Jo Rabin to find a way of crafting FD's text above and weaving it skillfully into the flow of the text -- due 2008-04-29 -- OPEN
14:26:59 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/740
14:28:10 [francois]: close ACTION-740
14:28:10 [trackbot]: ACTION-740 Find a way of crafting FD's text above and weaving it skillfully into the flow of the text closed
14:28:13 [francois]: ACTION-749?
14:28:13 [trackbot]: ACTION-749 -- François Daoust to write to the XHR folks and point out a possible need to identify that a requst comes from script -- due 2008-05-06 -- OPEN
14:28:13 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/749
14:28:41 [francois]: close ACTION-749
14:28:41 [trackbot]: ACTION-749 Write to the XHR folks and point out a possible need to identify that a requst comes from script closed
14:28:45 [francois]: ACTION-752?
14:28:46 [trackbot]: ACTION-752 -- Jo Rabin to propose text for the final part of 4.1.2 taking into account resolutions and discussion on this and the previous call -- due 2008-05-13 -- PENDINGREVIEW
14:28:46 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/752
14:30:13 [francois]: close ACTION-752
14:30:13 [trackbot]: ACTION-752 Propose text for the final part of 4.1.2 taking into account resolutions and discussion on this and the previous call closed
14:30:18 [francois]: ACTION-765?
14:30:18 [trackbot]: ACTION-765 -- François Daoust to check on equivalence between an HTTP header and a META element in HTML pages -- due 2008-06-03 -- OPEN
14:30:18 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/765
14:30:42 [francois]: close ACTION-765
14:30:42 [trackbot]: ACTION-765 Check on equivalence between an HTTP header and a META element in HTML pages closed
14:30:43 [hgerlach]: +1
14:30:51 [francois]: ACTION-766?
14:30:51 [trackbot]: ACTION-766 -- Jo Rabin to add note describing the circumstances of choosing the X-Device prefix and explaining that it's not necessarily the actual device headers and other weasel words, yada yada -- due 2008-06-10 -- OPEN
14:30:51 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/766
14:31:43 [rob]: francois: that ends the actions review
14:31:56 [francois]: Topic: Quick pass on Jo's points
14:32:07 [francois]: -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2008Jun/0015.html Jo's points
14:33:43 [francois]: http://www.w3.org/QA/glossary#N
14:33:55 [francois]: Normative: Text in a specification which is prescriptive or contains conformance requirements.
14:34:07 [francois]: http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Patent-Policy-20040205/#def-essential-requirements
14:34:28 [francois]: 8.3. Definition of Normative, Optional and Informative
14:34:28 [francois]: For purposes of this definition, the normative portions of the Recommendation shall be deemed to include only architectural and interoperability requirements. Optional features in the RFC 2119 [KEYWORDS] sense are considered normative unless they are specifically identified as informative. Implementation examples or any other material that merely illustrate the requirements of the Recommendation are informative, rather than normative.
14:34:39 [SeanP]: q+
14:34:55 [rob]: francois: 1. proposal is to link to the 1st of these definitions
14:35:00 [francois]: ack SeanP
14:35:19 [rob]: seanP: yes, 1st definition is preferred
14:35:31 [francois]: PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Use link to QA glossary for normative link (http://www.w3.org/QA/glossary#N)
14:35:34 [rob]: +1
14:35:36 [francois]: +1
14:35:36 [SeanP]: +1
14:35:54 [rob]: RESOLUTION: Use link to QA glossary for normative link (http://www.w3.org/QA/glossary#N)
14:38:59 [SeanP]: q+
14:38:59 [rob]: francois: point D, heuristics for determining when a response with a 200 Status should be treated as a response with a 406 Status
14:39:06 [francois]: ack SeanP
14:39:31 [rob]: SeanP: idea is to deal with legacy content
14:40:50 [rob]: hgerlach: not as easy as it seems to reply with a HTTP 406 (handsets often display it as an "error" that frightens users)
14:41:20 [francois]: ACTION: hgerlach to send a proposal on using meta data to alert CT-proxy that this is a rejected response even if it's a 200
14:41:20 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-771 - Send a proposal on using meta data to alert CT-proxy that this is a rejected response even if it's a 200 [on Heiko Gerlach - due 2008-06-17].
14:42:00 [SeanP]: q+
14:42:26 [francois]: PROPOSED RESOLUTION: leave it up to CT-proxy vendors to determine when a response with a 200 Status is a rejected response
14:42:29 [SeanP]: ack SeanP
14:42:37 [rob]: francois: want to lave it to CT-proxy vendors to decide how to deal with 406 Not Acceptable responses
14:43:06 [rob]: ... that appear as 200 OK and a body containing the error message
14:43:08 [rob]: +1
14:43:27 [francois]: +1
14:43:28 [hgerlach]: +1
14:43:44 [SeanP]: +1
14:43:46 [rob]: RESOLUTION: leave it up to CT-proxy vendors to determine when a response with a 200 Status is a rejected response
14:43:57 [francois]: s/with 406 Not Acceptable/with 200 OK/
14:46:21 [rob]: francois: point F, will address at F2F when Jo is present
14:47:41 [rob]: francois: point G, text seems clear enough, support Jo in dropping this note
14:47:50 [SeanP]: q+
14:47:56 [francois]: ack SeanP
14:48:27 [rob]: SeanP: agree, note doesn't really apply any more, is confusing and best droped
14:48:41 [rob]: s/droped/dropped/
14:51:19 [francois]: PROPOSED RESOLUTION: drop the editorial note at the end of 4.3
14:51:30 [francois]: PROPOSED RESOLUTION: drop the editorial note at the end of 4.3 and leave the text as it is
14:51:39 [francois]: PROPOSED RESOLUTION: drop the editorial note at the end of 4.3 and leave the text as it is in 4.3
14:51:47 [francois]: +1
14:51:48 [rob]: +1
14:51:52 [SeanP]: +1
14:52:04 [rob]: RESOLUTION: drop the editorial note at the end of 4.3 and leave the text as it is in 4.3
14:52:48 [rob]: francois: point H, wait for Jo and the F2F
14:53:51 [jo]: jo has joined #bpwg
14:54:00 [rob]: francois: point I, we removed the guidelines on advertising ability to transform from CT-proxy in request to origin server
14:54:15 [rob]: ... so suggest renaming section
14:54:47 [rob]: ... and remove 1st bullet list in section
14:55:04 [rob]: ... Please send comments and we'll address at F2F next week
14:55:07 [jo]: zakim, code?
14:55:07 [Zakim]: the conference code is 2283 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jo
14:55:22 [francois]: -> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/257 ISSUE-257 on 4.1.2
14:55:34 [Zakim]: + +2
14:55:44 [jo]: zakim, +2 is me
14:55:44 [Zakim]: +jo; got it
14:56:09 [jo]: zakim, mute me
14:56:09 [Zakim]: jo should now be muted
14:56:13 [hgerlach]: thanks
14:56:20 [francois]: Topic: Quick pass on ISSUES
14:56:29 [francois]: -> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/products/12 Opened ISSUES
14:56:44 [francois]: ISSUE-227?
14:56:44 [trackbot]: ISSUE-227 -- How Useful will the CT Guidelines Doc be, without extensions to HTTP? -- OPEN
14:56:44 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/227
14:57:27 [francois]: close ISSUE-227
14:57:28 [rob]: francois: I think we've proved it is useful without HTTP extensions
14:57:39 [jo]: rrsagent, draft minutes
14:57:39 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/10-bpwg-minutes.html jo
14:57:42 [francois]: ISSUE-238?
14:57:42 [trackbot]: ISSUE-238 -- Use of Powder to "label" CT proxies and Server Preferences for CT -- OPEN
14:57:42 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/238
14:58:11 [jo]: zakim, make logs public
14:58:11 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'make logs public', jo
14:58:21 [jo]: rrsagent, make logs public
14:58:30 [rob]: francois: don't want to *depend* on powder, but can say it's useful in future work
14:58:33 [jo]: rrsagent draft minutes
14:58:52 [jo]: rrsagent, draft minutes
14:58:52 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/10-bpwg-minutes.html jo
14:58:58 [jo]: ack me
14:59:40 [jo]: zakim, mute me
14:59:40 [Zakim]: jo should now be muted
14:59:52 [rob]: jo, i couldn't understand that
15:00:29 [francois]: Close ISSUE-238
15:01:21 [Zakim]: -Heiko
15:01:26 [francois]: ISSUE-241?
15:01:26 [trackbot]: ISSUE-241 -- Tokenization of URIs -- OPEN
15:01:26 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/241
15:03:44 [jo]: suggest we leave open and discuss further at f2f
15:03:54 [rob]: rob: I haven't read the latest draft yet
15:04:25 [francois]: ACTION: rob to review draft with ISSUE-241 in mind and see if some further actions are needed
15:04:25 [trackbot]: Sorry, couldn't find user - rob
15:04:33 [francois]: ISSUE-242?
15:04:33 [trackbot]: ISSUE-242 -- User expression of persistent and session preferences -- OPEN
15:04:33 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/242
15:04:37 [rob]: ... the note was that a CT-proxy can create pages for events that don't have real HTTP proxy URLs
15:04:53 [jo]: ACTION: finean to review draft with ISSUE-241 in mind and see if some further actions are needed
15:04:53 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-772 - Review draft with ISSUE-241 in mind and see if some further actions are needed [on Robert Finean - due 2008-06-17].
15:05:00 [rob]: for example, sub-page 2 or the page after a javascript event is triggered
15:05:19 [rob]: s/for/... for/
15:05:20 [jo]: I am worried about the whole idea of user preferences and persistence
15:05:40 [jo]: I am particularly concerned that this can be used as a rationale e.g. for ignoring no-transfrom
15:05:55 [jo]: can we leave the issue open?
15:06:52 [francois]: ACTION: jo to send his concerns to the mailing-list re. ISSUE-242
15:06:52 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-773 - Send his concerns to the mailing-list re. ISSUE-242 [on Jo Rabin - due 2008-06-17].
15:07:00 [francois]: ISSUE-243?
15:07:00 [trackbot]: ISSUE-243 -- Can OPTIONS be used to determine Server Transformation Preferences and presentation options (via POWDER?) -- OPEN
15:07:00 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/243
15:07:22 [jo]: suggest move to scope for future work
15:08:21 [francois]: ACTION: daoust to check the OPTIONS method for ISSUE-243
15:08:22 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-774 - Check the OPTIONS method for ISSUE-243 [on François Daoust - due 2008-06-17].
15:08:35 [francois]: ISSUE-244?
15:08:35 [trackbot]: ISSUE-244 -- What can a Transforming Proxy infer from earlier interactions with a Server? -- OPEN
15:08:35 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/244
15:09:20 [rob]: francois: don't have an explanation about what CT-proxy can infer
15:09:28 [jo]: +1 to closing issue
15:09:58 [francois]: close ISSUE-244
15:10:00 [rob]: ... suggest close issue and leave to vendors to innovate!
15:10:14 [francois]: ISSUE-255?
15:10:14 [trackbot]: ISSUE-255 -- Subdomain and Path as a heuristic in content transformation -- OPEN
15:10:14 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/255
15:11:54 [jo]: [don't quite agree with FD]
15:12:15 [jo]: [not if it is in a sequence of requests]
15:12:26 [jo]: [which is where the whole session thing comes in]
15:12:38 [jo]: ack me
15:13:30 [jo]: suggest we leave this till F2F
15:13:35 [jo]: zakim, mute me
15:13:36 [Zakim]: jo should now be muted
15:14:13 [jo]: should be allowed to change the headers if the reuqest is to a web site as part of a session
15:14:24 [rob]: francois: yes, please note this for discussion at F2F
15:14:25 [jo]: where the initial request had to have its headers modified
15:15:48 [SeanP]: Agree.
15:15:49 [jo]: +1 to announcing doc to group
15:16:29 [jo]: jo has left #bpwg
15:16:34 [Zakim]: -SeanP
15:16:36 [Zakim]: -rob
15:16:38 [Zakim]: -jo
15:16:42 [francois]: RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:16:42 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/10-bpwg-minutes.html francois
15:16:45 [Zakim]: -Francois
15:16:46 [Zakim]: MWI_BPWG(CTTF)10:00AM has ended
15:16:48 [Zakim]: Attendees were Francois, Heiko, +0207287aaaa, rob, SeanP, jo
15:16:52 [rob]: rob has left #bpwg
15:17:01 [francois]: RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:17:01 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/10-bpwg-minutes.html francois