IRC log of owl on 2008-06-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:04:19 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #owl
14:04:19 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/06/09-owl-irc
14:04:20 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +2, Vipul_Kashyap, Elisa_Kendall, +46.7.41.aabb, Evan_Wallace
14:04:30 [Zakim]
On IRC I see vipul, ewallace, Elisa, IanH, sandro, trackbot
14:04:53 [vipul]
Zakim, aabb is Christine
14:05:06 [Zakim]
+Christine; got it
14:06:08 [vipul]
rrsagent, make logs world-visible
14:06:41 [IanH]
zakim, hang up aabb
14:06:41 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'hang up aabb', IanH
14:09:21 [IanH]
zakim, who is here?
14:09:21 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +2, Vipul_Kashyap, Elisa_Kendall, Christine, Evan_Wallace
14:09:24 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, vipul, ewallace, Elisa, IanH, sandro, trackbot
14:09:31 [pfps]
pfps has joined #owl
14:09:47 [IanH]
q?
14:09:53 [IanH]
ack Christine
14:10:07 [Zakim]
+Peter_Patel-Schneider
14:10:23 [IanH]
zakim, +2 is me
14:10:25 [vipul]
Zakim, who's here?
14:10:26 [Zakim]
+IanH; got it
14:10:32 [Zakim]
On the phone I see IanH, Vipul_Kashyap, Elisa_Kendall, Christine, Evan_Wallace, Peter_Patel-Schneider
14:10:39 [Zakim]
On IRC I see pfps, RRSAgent, Zakim, vipul, ewallace, Elisa, IanH, sandro, trackbot
14:12:53 [ewallace]
scribeNick:Elisa_Kendall
14:13:04 [Elisa]
scribenick: Elisa
14:13:39 [Elisa]
Evan: last week we met and basically talked about how we were going to work on the requirements doc
14:13:54 [Elisa]
some people familiarized themselves with the work page Evan created
14:14:15 [Elisa]
talked about how to org document - whether by domain, use cases, features added in OWL 1.1
14:14:27 [Elisa]
really the entrypoint rather than the organization of ti
14:14:47 [Elisa]
Vipul: I started to arrange things in a sort of a table
14:14:58 [vipul]
http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/TraceabilityMatrix
14:15:16 [Elisa]
I've been filling out this table, and the table is just a generalization of that proposed by Michael and Christine
14:15:26 [ewallace]
Requirements workspace page: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Requirements_work_space
14:15:43 [Elisa]
and just started filling it out, to look across domains
14:16:14 [Elisa]
Ian: as I understand it, there was some disagreement as to whether the basic structure should start from OWL 2, or the other way around
14:16:27 [Elisa]
Vipul: yes, that is one of the disagreements
14:16:46 [Elisa]
I would like to propose that we go from the domain to the new features, but others want to go the other way around
14:17:08 [Elisa]
Ian: looking at your features in the new table, there are very few places where OWL 2 doesn't meet the requirements
14:17:39 [Elisa]
as it stands, starting from requirements and use cases, using this matrix, you would say that what we needed was OWL 2
14:18:03 [Elisa]
if we don't end up with a large number of unsatisfied requirements, it doesn't make that much difference
14:18:27 [Elisa]
Vipul: there was a question of scope brought up at the last telecon, looking at requirements that were
14:18:36 [Elisa]
relevant for OWL 2
14:19:17 [Elisa]
Ian: yes, without that you could go on and on ... without that we might feel obliged to identify all of the features we don't have in the language and then say why not
14:19:24 [Elisa]
Vipul: would that be useful
14:19:46 [Elisa]
Ian: it could take quite a bit of time, slow us down saying why we didn't include those features
14:20:03 [Elisa]
Vipul: yes, I'm focusing on the use cases where we do have those features
14:20:35 [Elisa]
Ian: this is really how we started, which led to OWL 1.1 and subsequently morfed into OWL2, so what you've done really reflects the design process
14:21:18 [Elisa]
Christine: I am not sure that I understand correctly the end of our discussion last Monday - I understood that we wanted to have a doc composed of 3 parts: use cases, requirements, and design rationale
14:21:56 [Elisa]
my thought was that we were going to organize according to the new OWL features, but some people suggested that we should not be redundant or overlapping with the older documents
14:22:14 [Elisa]
Bijan said that it should not be redundant with the primer or reference docs, and I agree
14:22:58 [ewallace]
Christine's input doc:http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/images/8/83/TdM-UserReqTF.pdf
14:23:11 [Elisa]
but I have been thinking that we should review the document I put online regarding the features, but highlighting based on questions, but focused on requirements and then discussing the features
14:23:40 [Elisa]
summarizing - 3 parts, starting with use cases, then requirements stressing rationale and motivation, and 3rd part talking about the design
14:24:18 [IanH]
q?
14:24:20 [Elisa]
I didn't have time to finish this, but we might keep this along similar lines ...
14:24:37 [Elisa]
reorganizing along the lines of features
14:24:51 [ewallace]
She was quoting me
14:25:05 [Elisa]
vipul: the syntactic sugar is one of the most useful things introduced - we've been discussing this on email
14:25:15 [pfps]
not surprising - there are an infinite number of ways of representing anything
14:25:21 [ewallace]
The issue was with describing the feature as syntactic sugar, not the features in that category
14:25:54 [Elisa]
Ian: so - from what I understand, you (Vipul) and Christine are not that far apart, so can we hear from someone who disagrees ...
14:26:49 [Elisa]
Evan: I just put in what Vipul was clarifying ... my issue last week - I didn't think the way it was organized was particularly user friendly
14:26:59 [Elisa]
Ian: so this was mainly editorial
14:27:03 [Elisa]
Evan: indeed
14:27:43 [Elisa]
Ian: so there will be quite a bit of editorial polishing ... the only thing I wasn't 100% clear about was the third section - so what's in the design section
14:28:02 [Elisa]
Christine: I said use cases, requirements, and design
14:28:10 [Elisa]
Ian: so what is design?
14:28:43 [Elisa]
Christine: to explain the motivation - why these features were implemented, now the -- document is very nice, lots of progress
14:28:59 [vipul]
q
14:29:13 [vipul]
q+
14:29:15 [IanH]
q?
14:29:20 [Elisa]
if you take a specific feature, and summarize discussion regarding why certain design choices were made
14:29:55 [Elisa]
Ian: I can understand now why Bijan was worried about overlap - I would have expected use cases leading to requirements, and then describe how those requirements were satisfied,
14:30:09 [Elisa]
rather than potentially unconnected features, such as profiles, were selected
14:30:53 [IanH]
q?
14:30:57 [Elisa]
so for example, for the OWL lite profile, there is a requirement for access to databases, and then the solution would be that the OWL lite profile is the subset of the language that allows you to do this
14:30:58 [IanH]
ack vipul
14:31:33 [Elisa]
Vipul: the third section should say how the features map to the requirements, but I would like to add something about what is better in OWL 2 over what was in OWL 1
14:31:43 [IanH]
q?
14:31:50 [Elisa]
Ian: ok - I can imaging doing something about that, taking care about overlap
14:32:46 [Elisa]
Vipul: so take syntactic sugar -- there were lots of ways of saying things in OWL 1, but there are lots of people who don't know very much about logic, so features such as the syntactic sugar are very helpful
14:33:19 [Elisa]
Ian: we're all in close enough agreement to produce a document ...
14:33:52 [Elisa]
Christine: for the design section, it is not the same if the objective is to map requirements to features, than to say why a feature was designed or accepted
14:34:22 [Elisa]
so for example, the easy key example, it is not clear why it might be implemented with DL-safe rules, or functional-inverse functional
14:34:41 [Elisa]
for each feature, it is important to say how to use the feature based on the underlying design
14:34:57 [ewallace]
Really?
14:34:58 [Elisa]
Ian: in this area you are getting close to problems with the primer
14:35:38 [Elisa]
what I suggest is that you are close enough to top level design of the structure to try doing a few examples, and then come back to the working group with a draft
14:35:48 [Elisa]
if people like what's there you can produce more
14:36:43 [Elisa]
Christine: it is too difficult to summarize all of the discussion, and even if there are explanations in the profile and primer documents, it is hard to grasp the underlying reasons for these things
14:37:09 [Elisa]
Ian: so pick and example and produce some text - it's difficult to understand what you want to do without seeing something concrete
14:37:39 [Elisa]
Christine: this is reasonable, but the 3rd part is difficult, because the information is missing
14:37:41 [ewallace]
q+
14:37:59 [Elisa]
Ian: so you might choose something that you do understand, so that you can write it
14:38:02 [IanH]
ack ewallace
14:38:21 [Elisa]
Evan: I think it would be good to build what we can and then say what's missing, what we need help with
14:38:26 [vipul]
q+
14:38:45 [IanH]
ack vipul
14:38:51 [Elisa]
Ian: do you think you can go ahead and come up with a draft
14:39:20 [Elisa]
Vipul: I have a request from Evan and Peter - it would be nice to beef up the document with examples from telecommunications and manufacturing
14:39:54 [Elisa]
Evan: I have some examples from manufacturing, but it will be a little challenging to match them to features of OWL 2
14:40:07 [Elisa]
Christine: so who will take a crack at the first draft?
14:40:37 [Elisa]
Evan: I could just start building the framework for this, so that you have some places to start filling in the content -- I did talk to Sandro about how we could do this on the wiki
14:40:56 [Elisa]
Ian: as soon as you've filled in the framework we can get multiple people working on different sections
14:41:19 [vipul]
ACTION: Evan to create first draft of requirements document
14:41:19 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-158 - Create first draft of requirements document [on Evan Wallace - due 2008-06-16].
14:41:47 [Elisa]
Christine: would it be possible for you to draft an example for the design section?
14:42:04 [Elisa]
Ian: I'm a little baffled, as you know what you want in the section ...
14:42:43 [Elisa]
Let's see what you come up with, and if you have a section that says "we need an explanation of why this does what it does" I can help out if its needed'
14:43:06 [Elisa]
Ian: is there anything else that we needed to cover today
14:44:10 [Elisa]
Evan: on the quick start - we had some questions about the vocabulary, have we had any discussion with Boris?
14:44:40 [Elisa]
We were trying to figure out exactly what parts of the syntax should be part of it, and it wasn't obvious
14:45:01 [pfps]
why not look in the document set for the terminals of the language?
14:45:03 [Elisa]
we were going to ask to see if he had generated anything with just the terminals, and start working from that
14:45:44 [Elisa]
Ian: looking in the document is one way, but if it could be done automatically that would be quicker
14:45:47 [Elisa]
Evan: exactly
14:45:59 [Elisa]
Ian: Peter is there any way to do that?
14:46:25 [Elisa]
Peter: if you want a reasonably recent set, there are indexes in the document that could get you most of the way
14:46:40 [Elisa]
Evan: we were just asking if it had been done, not to create work
14:47:01 [Elisa]
Ian: it seems like the answer is yes, it has already been done - we just need to find out where this index is and use that
14:47:07 [Elisa]
Evan: yes
14:47:26 [Elisa]
Ian: can you point us at the index?
14:47:42 [Elisa]
Peter: Im getting server errors in the moment, so I can't
14:47:52 [Elisa]
you might want to try the primer
14:48:18 [Elisa]
Ian: index, owl feature -- there is a list of owl features ... is that the kind of thing you were thinking of?
14:48:25 [Elisa]
Peter: I think so,
14:48:33 [Elisa]
Ian: so that's a good starting point
14:48:37 [pfps]
http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Primer#Appendix:_OWL_Features
14:49:33 [Elisa]
Ian: ok, so anything more on the quick start? we'll hopefully have something to discuss next week?
14:49:42 [Elisa]
Elisa: hopefully the first week of July
14:49:51 [Elisa]
Ian: anything else we should discuss this week?
14:50:16 [Elisa]
Christine: what is the quick start guide supposed to be?
14:51:07 [Elisa]
Ian: it's supposed to be like a reference card at the back of a manual that helps refresh your memory on syntax, a card that can sit on your desk rather than a book that would sit on your bookshelf
14:51:36 [Elisa]
Ian: if we're not expecting progress on the quick start until the beginning of July, when should we schedule our next meeting?
14:53:51 [IanH]
q?
14:53:56 [Elisa]
Ian: realistically, it sounds like you might not have anything until the week of the 7th of July;do we want another meeting between now and then to discuss the use case and requirements document
14:54:34 [Elisa]
On the use case and requirements document, do we meet next week or the 30th?
14:55:06 [Elisa]
Vipul: it depends on whether or not Evan can get something done by then
14:55:28 [Elisa]
Evan: Let's meet on the 30th, and I'll have at least a draft of the structure of the use case document we can discuss
14:55:54 [vipul]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:55:54 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/09-owl-minutes.html vipul
14:55:54 [pfps]
documenting the schedule would be useful
14:56:07 [Elisa]
meeting adjourned
14:56:46 [Zakim]
-Vipul_Kashyap
14:56:48 [Zakim]
-Elisa_Kendall
14:56:50 [Zakim]
-Christine
14:56:51 [ewallace]
next meeting will be on 30 June to discuss progress on Requirements
14:56:52 [Zakim]
-IanH
14:57:00 [Zakim]
-Evan_Wallace
14:57:05 [Zakim]
-Peter_Patel-Schneider
14:57:07 [Zakim]
SW_OWL()10:00AM has ended
14:57:08 [Zakim]
Attendees were Vipul_Kashyap, Elisa_Kendall, +46.7.41.aabb, Evan_Wallace, Christine, Peter_Patel-Schneider, IanH
14:57:23 [ewallace]
will meet on 7 July to discuss Quickstart
14:57:47 [ewallace]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:57:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/09-owl-minutes.html ewallace
14:58:03 [ewallace]
rrsagent, make log world-readable
14:58:45 [ewallace]
RRSAgent, make records public
17:02:15 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #owl