IRC log of ua on 2008-06-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:34:43 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
17:34:43 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/06/05-ua-irc
17:34:57 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, set logs public
17:54:56 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
17:55:19 [Jan]
Jan has joined #ua
17:57:30 [AllanJ]
meeting: UAWG telecon
17:57:41 [AllanJ]
zakim, this will be wai_u
17:57:41 [Zakim]
ok, AllanJ; I see WAI_UAWG()2:00PM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
17:57:50 [AllanJ]
Chair: Jim Allan
17:58:56 [AllanJ]
agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008AprJun/0128.html
17:59:11 [jeanne]
zakim, code?
17:59:11 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jeanne
17:59:18 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()2:00PM has now started
17:59:22 [Zakim]
+AllanJ
17:59:25 [Zakim]
+??P3
17:59:27 [Zakim]
+jeanne
17:59:40 [Jan]
zakim, ??P3 is really Jan
17:59:40 [Zakim]
+Jan; got it
18:00:33 [AllanJ]
http://www.zacbrowser.com/
18:01:28 [jeanne]
zack browser for cognitive disabilities
18:03:37 [AllanJ]
Topic: Summer Schedule of Meetings
18:05:07 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
18:05:40 [Jan]
zakim, [Microsoft] is really KFord
18:05:40 [Zakim]
+KFord; got it
18:06:15 [jeanne]
scribe: jeanne
18:17:29 [jeanne]
Pretopic discussion of Nintendo Wii and Xbox as user agents.
18:18:04 [jeanne]
KF: How do we increase participation - a Call for Participation?
18:18:15 [jeanne]
JR: It's part of rechartering.
18:18:46 [jeanne]
KF: will talk to people in XBox team to see if they are interested in participating.
18:20:03 [jeanne]
Veteran's Administration would be interested in accessible game boxes.
18:22:17 [KFord]
KFord has joined #ua
18:22:38 [jeanne]
JS: We need cell phone contributers.
18:23:32 [jeanne]
JA: Talk to Google mobile applications. They are accessible.
18:24:26 [jeanne]
Topic: Summer Schedule
18:24:59 [jeanne]
July 4th is a Thursday.
18:25:12 [jeanne]
KF: Will be around most of the summer
18:25:24 [jeanne]
JA will be out June 19, 26 and 4.
18:26:29 [jeanne]
JS will be out July 31 to Aug 7.
18:26:53 [jeanne]
JR has nothing planned yet.
18:27:28 [KFord]
As an fyi here's the link for are talk about IE8 beta 2. http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/06/03/ie8-beta-2-coming-in-august.aspx
18:31:18 [jeanne]
topic: UAAG and the Alt Attribute
18:31:41 [jeanne]
JA: Found all the parts of UAAG that mention the @alt.
18:32:57 [jeanne]
... there should be no ambiguity in what is the correct alternative content to present to the user.
18:33:45 [jeanne]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008AprJun/0126.html
18:35:25 [jeanne]
JR: the meaning of alt="" is overloaded, but perhaps UAAG should take a stand that is should be required.
18:36:23 [jeanne]
KF: It's fine to deal with the overload, but we have to take a position that there must be alternative text and it is mandatory.
18:36:35 [jeanne]
...otherwise it will go away.
18:36:55 [jeanne]
JA: Xtech and HTML5 have 2 thousand messages on this topic.
18:37:22 [jeanne]
...use cases and edge cases on both sides.
18:37:58 [Jan]
2.7 in UAAG 1.0: Allow configuration to generate repair text when the user agent recognizes that the author has not provided conditional content required by the format specification.
18:38:10 [jeanne]
JR: UAAG 1.0 uses @alt in repair (see above)
18:38:51 [jeanne]
...uses that as a trigger for repair text, like use the name of the image.
18:39:36 [jeanne]
JA: We were documenting current practice. We have similar guideline in UAAG 2.
18:40:09 [jeanne]
JR: There could be no repair if every site that currently ignores @alt put it in as alt="".
18:40:40 [KFord]
Off topic, how to get get the spelling error in accessibility under the wai list corrected in http://www.w3.org/Mail/Lists
18:40:46 [AllanJ]
in UAAG 20 - 3.5.1 Repair Missing Alternatives: The user has the option of receiving generated repair text when the user agent recognizes that the author has not provided alternative content required by the technology specification (e.g., short text alternative for an image).@@2.7 in UAAG10@@
18:40:49 [jeanne]
JR: Should alt="" be decorative image or should it be "I don't care about accessibility"?
18:42:12 [jeanne]
JR: I think it should be alt="" for the people who don't care about accessibility and have a different delimiter for a decorative image.
18:44:46 [jeanne]
JR: We want to make sure that there is a difference between decorative, or alternative content missing.
18:45:24 [jeanne]
JS: because that would trigger the repair function.
18:45:58 [jeanne]
JR: we need to present that fork to the user agent developers.
18:46:29 [jeanne]
JA: there needs to be an unambiguous relationship between the alternative content and the image
18:47:18 [jeanne]
...and there needs to be an unambiguous relationship between the decorative and the needing repair.
18:48:20 [jeanne]
JR: Browser developers need a clear distinction between where there is no information value of the image, and when the information value of the image is unclear.
18:49:10 [jeanne]
JR: There is no alternate content for a sound.
18:49:51 [jeanne]
JR: If there were, it would want to have alternative content.
18:50:30 [jeanne]
JA: Our job is to display alternative content, whatever the language says it is, and if it isn't. we would have to generate repair.
18:53:25 [jeanne]
JR: People will complain that we forcing a change to the status quo. They will have to repair their sites to conform.
18:54:06 [jeanne]
... but the developer who doesn't care about accessibility will just put alt="" to pass validation.
18:55:18 [jeanne]
JA: for a while, we were training developers to put summary="" on layout tables.
18:56:18 [jeanne]
JR: It was a bad idea in the beginning to use alt="", because it doesn't mean "decorative image".
18:56:59 [jeanne]
JA: May need a whole new attribute set. There is also the idea that all content should be within elements, not in attributes.
18:57:33 [jeanne]
JR: Should we have a "defending the status quo" position for the browsers?
18:57:41 [jeanne]
KF and JA: No.
18:58:21 [jeanne]
JA: if something is identified as alternative text is should be presented to the user without requiring the user discover it.
18:58:45 [jeanne]
... and if it is missing, it should trigger a repair condition.
18:58:57 [jeanne]
JR: And if it is missing?
18:59:26 [jeanne]
JA: then it should trigger repair, the way browsers do repair for all kinds of conditions for sloppy developers.
19:00:48 [Jan]
Action JR: Try to formulate the UAWG position out of this discussion
19:02:20 [jeanne]
ACTION: Jan will write it up and email Jeanne who will put it in a survey and send it out.
19:03:00 [jeanne]
ACTION: Jeanne will turn Jan's write up on printing and make it a survey and send it out.
19:03:11 [jeanne]
Topic: Techniques
19:03:38 [jeanne]
JA: JS said that we have a Techniques document due in December
19:03:45 [Zakim]
-KFord
19:03:49 [Zakim]
-Jan
19:04:25 [jeanne]
JA: We have open issues and JR has made it into a wiki page.
19:10:01 [jeanne]
zakim, bye
19:10:01 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were AllanJ, jeanne, Jan, KFord
19:10:01 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
19:15:19 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:15:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/05-ua-minutes.html AllanJ
19:15:24 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, part
19:15:24 [RRSAgent]
I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/05-ua-actions.rdf :
19:15:24 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JR to Try to formulate the UAWG position out of this discussion [1]
19:15:24 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/05-ua-irc#T19-00-48
19:15:24 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jan will write it up and email Jeanne who will put it in a survey and send it out. [2]
19:15:24 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/05-ua-irc#T19-02-20
19:15:24 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jeanne will turn Jan's write up on printing and make it a survey and send it out. [3]
19:15:24 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/05-ua-irc#T19-03-00