IRC log of tagmem on 2008-05-29

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:52:37 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/05/29-tagmem-irc
16:53:05 [Stuart]
zakim, this will be tag
16:53:05 [Zakim]
ok, Stuart; I see TAG_Weekly()1:00PM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
16:54:11 [Stuart]
agenda: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/05/29-agenda
16:54:26 [Stuart]
chair: Stuart Williams
16:54:38 [Stuart]
scribe: Ashok Malhotra
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16:58:14 [Zakim]
TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has now started
16:58:21 [Zakim]
+??P0
16:58:24 [Stuart]
zakim, ?? is me
16:58:24 [Zakim]
+Stuart; got it
16:58:31 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.253.aaaa
16:58:47 [Stuart]
zakim, + is jar
16:58:47 [Zakim]
+jar; got it
16:59:59 [Ashok]
Ashok has joined #tagmem
17:01:15 [Zakim]
+??P3
17:01:38 [Stuart]
zakim, ?? is daveO
17:01:38 [Zakim]
+daveO; got it
17:01:47 [ht]
zakim, please call ht-781
17:01:48 [Zakim]
ok, ht; the call is being made
17:01:48 [Zakim]
+DanC.a
17:01:49 [Zakim]
+Ht
17:02:21 [Zakim]
+Ashok_Malhotra
17:02:44 [Stuart]
scribenick Ashok
17:03:00 [Stuart]
scribenick: Ashok
17:03:15 [Stuart]
zakim, who is here?
17:03:15 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Stuart, jar, daveO, DanC.a, Ht, Ashok_Malhotra
17:03:17 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Ashok, jar, RRSAgent, Stuart, noah, Norm, ht, DanC, Zakim, trackbot-ng
17:03:53 [Ashok]
Stuart: still missing minutes from 5/19
17:04:05 [Ashok]
HT: I'll do them Tuesday
17:05:09 [Ashok]
SW: Comembts in the agenda?
17:05:17 [Zakim]
+Norm
17:05:30 [Ashok]
HT: I have to leave in 45 mts. can we move up tagSoup
17:06:07 [Ashok]
RESOLVED: Minutes from 5/15 approved
17:06:10 [DanC]
looks ok to me http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-issue-tracking/2007Dec/0002.html
17:06:17 [Zakim]
+TimBL
17:06:22 [ht]
Note that the raw minutes for 19 May are online as http://www.w3.org/2008/05/19-tagmem-irc.{txt,html,rdf}
17:06:34 [Ashok]
Next mtg June 4
17:06:35 [DanC]
(5/15 is not a good date notation in an international setting. 15 May, please, or 2008-05-15)
17:06:46 [Ashok]
Regrets DaveO, Ashok
17:07:04 [DanC]
regrets 5 Jun from me
17:07:45 [Ashok]
Regrets from Tim the follwing week
17:08:00 [Ashok]
SW: New items?
17:08:16 [Ashok]
SW: I posted some personal comments on CURIE last calls
17:08:34 [timbl]
timbl has joined #tagmem
17:08:45 [Ashok]
Issue UrnsAndRegistries-50 (ISSUE-50)
17:09:45 [jar]
http://www.pacificspirit.com/blog/2008/05/28/xri_solves_what_real_problems
17:09:56 [Ashok]
DO: I posted a link to my blog where I pointed out that XRI do not discuss what problem they solve
17:10:53 [Ashok]
q+
17:12:33 [Stuart]
ack ashok
17:13:17 [timbl]
q+ to ask if anyone knows
17:13:28 [timbl]
... what the OpenID process is
17:14:02 [Ashok]
DO: HT we were working on a joint document ...
17:14:22 [Ashok]
HT: I will not be able to get to it before tomorrow's vote
17:14:30 [Zakim]
+Noah_Mendelsohn
17:14:50 [Stuart]
ack timbl
17:14:50 [Zakim]
timbl, you wanted to ask if anyone knows
17:14:54 [Ashok]
DO: Please send to me ... I'll try and finish and publish
17:17:24 [Ashok]
SW: Are you clear abt attributions on the combined document?
17:17:41 [Ashok]
DO: I will publish over my name
17:17:53 [Ashok]
Issue passwordsinTheClear-52 (ISSUE-52)
17:17:59 [DanC]
action-150?
17:17:59 [trackbot-ng]
ACTION-150 -- David Orchard to finish refs etc on passwords in the clear finding -- due 2008-05-27 -- OPEN
17:17:59 [trackbot-ng]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/150
17:18:07 [Ashok]
DO: I have the ball but no progress
17:18:10 [DanC]
^ that seems pretty clear about who has the ball
17:18:27 [DanC]
... though an updated due date might help
17:18:34 [Ashok]
Issue tagSoupIntegration-54 (ISSUE-54)
17:18:49 [Ashok]
SW: Tim you had an action to write somethjing
17:19:18 [Ashok]
TimBL: I got through a third ... not sure when I can get to it ... perhaps next week
17:20:16 [Ashok]
Can't see it hapenning before June 6
17:20:37 [DanC]
action-145?
17:20:37 [trackbot-ng]
ACTION-145 -- Tim Berners-Lee to add public prose around his slides at the AC meeting to make the case for extensiblity and flexible XML, due 29 May -- due 2008-06-06 -- OPEN
17:20:37 [trackbot-ng]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/145
17:20:44 [Ashok]
SW: Due date COB Friday June 6
17:21:07 [Ashok]
SW: HT where are we ?
17:24:01 [Ashok]
HT: One new fact -- the DOM you get when you call setAtt on a XML doc .... is different from the DOM you get when youread the doc in
17:24:54 [Norm]
O! For the love of! We're going to be constrained by the broken DOM APIs?
17:25:36 [DanC]
yes, norm, just like all the web developers out there. Why wouldn't we be?
17:25:46 [Ashok]
If you delete and att and then set it you get a DOM node with different properties
17:26:02 [Norm]
Sigh. Right. Nevermind. I'm a little frustrated today, I guess.
17:26:25 [Ashok]
HT: This is not surprising ... DOM is very underspecified
17:27:21 [Stuart]
q?
17:27:25 [noah]
q+ to ask where Henry actually stands as a result of all this email discussion
17:27:45 [Ashok]
Aaron L is now opposed
17:27:57 [Ashok]
We have not heard from Microsoft
17:28:10 [Ashok]
Don't know abt Apple and Opera
17:28:25 [Ashok]
Noah: We did hear from Chris Wilson
17:28:30 [Stuart]
http://www.w3.org/mid/E35CF0CC5D011D49943F61E242AF48AD0876B83ABC@NA-EXMSG-W601.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com
17:28:58 [DanC]
ah... from Chris W. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008May/0117.html
17:30:30 [Ashok]
HT: I'm feeling pretty ground down ... no on said "isn't this worth working on"
17:30:40 [Ashok]
s/on/one/
17:31:36 [Stuart]
q?
17:31:42 [Ashok]
HT: This is a judgement call .. I have failed to persuade the implementers
17:32:02 [Stuart]
ack noah
17:32:02 [Zakim]
noah, you wanted to ask where Henry actually stands as a result of all this email discussion
17:32:04 [timbl]
q+
17:33:37 [Ashok]
Noah: We shd be careful what we say in wrapping this up
17:34:13 [Stuart]
ack timb
17:34:21 [Ashok]
Finding a way that sounds sensetive and thoughtful will pay dividends
17:34:32 [noah]
s/sounds/is/
17:34:49 [Ashok]
TimBL: It will be aria- for everything?
17:34:50 [Norm]
s/sensetive/sensative/
17:35:55 [Stuart]
q+ noah
17:36:10 [Ashok]
TimBL: Can we say to ARIA go ahead we have had enough discussion
17:36:37 [Ashok]
HT: They cannot add to HTML spec as they don't own it
17:36:51 [Stuart]
ack noah
17:37:14 [DanC]
(W3C has chartered several specs that tell you what HTML is. They conflict. Whee!)
17:37:36 [Ashok]
Noah: They also say they will use aria: in XML
17:38:00 [Stuart]
I think this one is relevant: http://www.w3.org/mid/E3DDF3D6-EFD7-4017-A00E-0FD343A14B70@IEEE.org
17:38:10 [Ashok]
HT: They are backing off from aria- in HTML and and aria: in XML
17:39:11 [Ashok]
SW: ARIA is asking whether TAG will obstruct progress ... we shd say we are not planning on obstructing progress of ARIA
17:39:33 [Ashok]
TimBL: Saying what HT just said
17:39:44 [noah]
> I am therefore (re-)proposing that the attributes be defined in a
17:39:44 [noah]
> single form, with a set of local name that all begin with
17:39:44 [noah]
> "aria-" (in an attempt to avoid clashes with other attributes whose
17:39:44 [noah]
> canonical namespace is the empty string) and with the empty string
17:39:55 [noah]
> as their namespace identifier, in order to work the same in both
17:39:55 [noah]
> HTML and XML languages without requiring anyone to remember any
17:39:55 [noah]
> special magic tricks for CSS, DOM scripting, or anything else.
17:40:17 [Ashok]
HT: I'm hearing aria- everywhere
17:40:52 [Stuart]
q?
17:41:34 [noah]
The middle ground that seems sort of maybe ok is aria- in HTML, and perhaps silent on XML and other non-HTML languages. Suggesting aria- in XML seems more troubling to me.
17:41:36 [Ashok]
DO: I cannot even stomach even abstaining on something that makes - the namespace separator
17:42:18 [Ashok]
TimBL: We shd keep our effort up on HTML modularization
17:42:44 [timbl]
and versioning
17:43:09 [Ashok]
SW: Q: Is there anyone who cannot live with aria- in HTML as proposed by ARIA WG ?
17:43:37 [Ashok]
DO: That is unreasonable question .. that not what ARIA propose
17:44:01 [Ashok]
DO: I cannot live with something that propose - in both HTML and XML
17:44:49 [Ashok]
DO: I could live with - for HTML and : for XML
17:44:56 [Zakim]
-Ht
17:45:11 [Ashok]
TimBL: Need to have same think in HTMK and XML -- DOM is the same
17:45:25 [Ashok]
s/think/thing/
17:45:39 [Ashok]
s/HTMK/HTML/
17:45:48 [ht]
I think we have to acknowledge that HTML and XHTML will travel together, and only the _other_ XML languages are in play
17:47:15 [jar]
(following consequences of what Tim's saying) maybe in XHTML you would have a choice between aria: and aria- ? the first if you import the aria namespace, the latter if you import the aria namespace?
17:47:42 [Norm]
It seems to me that you'd want aria- to work on <svg:circle too, so the inherited namespace proposal doens't seem to help.
17:47:56 [Ashok]
SW: We need a concrete proposal
17:48:36 [Ashok]
TimBL: Dave can we agree to let them to add attributes like 'rel' was added
17:49:06 [Ashok]
DO: Why have aria- why not just pick names that don't clash
17:50:24 [Ashok]
TimBL: We reserve judgement on what happens in future abt HTML versioning and modularity
17:50:59 [Stuart]
q?
17:51:58 [Ashok]
DO: How many things are there in ARIA?
17:52:07 [Ashok]
TimBL : Abt 30
17:52:34 [DanC]
q+
17:52:44 [Ashok]
DO: Change names for those whose names clash and use barenames
17:53:03 [Stuart]
q?
17:53:16 [DanC]
ack danc
17:53:33 [jar]
I like the approach of doing without the aria- prefix (that DO articulated)
17:53:52 [Ashok]
DanC: They say we have looked at it and it's not worth it -- ARIA has recognition -- extra characters do not cost much
17:54:03 [jar]
blah.
17:54:05 [Ashok]
DO: Norm, what do you think?
17:54:16 [DanC]
s/ it's not worth it/ it's coherent but not worth it/
17:55:30 [Stuart]
q+
17:55:37 [Ashok]
Norm: I'm conflicted whether to object and be overruled or go along with a flawed proposal
17:55:56 [DanC]
(re-reading, yes, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008Apr/0226.html is still my position; I'm not sure it makes sense as a position/question for the group)
17:56:25 [Ashok]
Norm: There may be a small chance we can get them to do something reasonable
17:56:35 [jar]
How about, rather than object or allow, just publish a neutral note that says what we think without claiming to have authority?
17:56:43 [timbl]
Proposal1: The TAG suggests that the WAI-PF go ahead and add attributes into the HTML5 spec, using "aria-" as a prefix with liaison with the HTMLWG. That this in no way endorses the use of the same attributes with other specs, nor is this taken as being a solution for HTML versioning and modularization which still is an important ongoing issues.
17:56:45 [Ashok]
Norm: I want to try and maintain what credibility we can
17:57:29 [Stuart]
q?
17:57:32 [Stuart]
q-
17:57:46 [Ashok]
SW: It is hard to get them to change once things are deployed
17:57:54 [DanC]
Proposal1 works for me
17:58:32 [DanC]
... though the WAI PF's current work isn't scoped to HTML, AFAIK
17:58:36 [jar]
s/or allow/or accept/
17:59:46 [Ashok]
Noah: I don't object as far as it goes
18:00:07 [Ashok]
Noah: Distributed extesibility remains a goal ....
18:00:35 [Ashok]
Noah: Does not mention XML
18:01:53 [noah]
How ahout: Distributed extensibility remains an important goal for languages used on the Web, and for XML languages in particular. The TAG hopes to work with the community to strike the right balance between achieving that, and meeting the practical needs of the HTMl community.
18:02:26 [noah]
s/achieving that/achieving that for languages other than ARIA/
18:02:30 [Norm]
The TAG accepts that the most pragmatic short-term approach for WAI-PF is to go ahead and add attributes into the HTML5 spec, using names that begin "aria-" in liaison with the HTMLWG. This in no way endorses the use of the same attributes with other specs, or any XML specs, nor is this taken as being a solution for HTML versioning and modularization which still is an important ongoing issue. Distributed extensibility remains an important goal for languages used o
18:02:30 [Norm]
n the Web, and for XML languages in particular. The TAG hopes to work with the community to strike the right balance between achieving that, and meeting the practical needs of the HTMl community.
18:03:16 [DanC]
as I explained in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008Apr/0226.html , ARIA too a decentralized approach, and after a period of experimentation, took up the cost of a *centralized* approach.
18:04:21 [Ashok]
TimBl: add :"HTML version, HTML modularization and HTML to XML conversions are outstanding"
18:04:53 [Ashok]
s/version/versioning/
18:05:20 [Norm]
The TAG accepts that the most pragmatic short-term approach for WAI-PF is to go ahead and add attributes into the HTML5 spec, using names that begin "aria-" in liaison with the HTMLWG. This in no way endorses the use of the same attributes with other specs, or any XML specs, nor is this taken as being a solution for HTML versioning, HTML modularization, or HTML to XML conversions which are still open. Distributed extensibility remains an important goal for languag
18:05:20 [Norm]
es used on the Web, and for XML languages in particular. The TAG hopes to work with the community to strike the right balance between achieving that, and meeting the practical needs of the HTMl community.
18:05:30 [DanC]
q+
18:06:39 [Ashok]
DanC: Henry wanted to look at it ... are you going to decide w/o him?
18:07:10 [Ashok]
SW: I suggest we create a TAG position subject to approval by HT and Raman
18:08:48 [Ashok]
Noah: Let's decide and ask HT and Raman to object in a day or two if they have a concern
18:09:14 [Stuart]
zakim, who is here
18:09:14 [Zakim]
Stuart, you need to end that query with '?'
18:09:17 [Stuart]
zakim, who is here?
18:09:17 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Stuart, jar, daveO, DanC.a, Ashok_Malhotra, Norm, TimBL, Noah_Mendelsohn
18:09:20 [Zakim]
On IRC I see timbl, Ashok, jar, RRSAgent, Stuart, noah, Norm, ht, DanC, Zakim, trackbot-ng
18:09:26 [Ashok]
SW: Is there anyone on call who cannot live with the above resolution?
18:09:33 [Ashok]
No one replies
18:09:47 [Ashok]
Anyone wants to abstain?
18:09:48 [Zakim]
-Stuart
18:09:53 [Ashok]
No on replies
18:10:19 [Zakim]
+??P0
18:10:19 [Ashok]
c/on/one/
18:11:17 [Ashok]
SW: Shall I mail HT and Raman on the tag list?
18:11:50 [Ashok]
ACTION: Stuart to check with Henry and Raman as whether they agree with the position
18:11:51 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-160 - Check with Henry and Raman as whether they agree with the position [on Stuart Williams - due 2008-06-05].
18:12:23 [Ashok]
SW: How do we communicate our position?
18:12:41 [Ashok]
Noah: I think we shd send mail say by Monday
18:12:49 [Ashok]
SW: I will do that
18:13:11 [DanC]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008May/0087.html
18:13:20 [Ashok]
TOPIC: HTML5 Request for TAG Review
18:13:38 [Ashok]
List of questions
18:13:56 [Norm]
q+ to make a meta comment about the list
18:14:50 [Ashok]
DanC: I've looked at the list ... it's a mix of HTML. editorial and architectural principles
18:16:22 [Ashok]
SW: Asks about using the remaining 15 minutes
18:16:44 [Ashok]
Decision not to discussion version today
18:16:59 [Ashok]
s/discussion/discuss/
18:18:02 [Norm]
q?
18:18:19 [Stuart]
q- DanC
18:18:59 [Ashok]
Norm: The mixture of questions is an indication that the spec is poorly modularized
18:19:27 [Stuart]
q+
18:19:33 [DanC]
q-
18:19:43 [Ashok]
TimBL: Let's make those editorial requests
18:19:44 [Norm]
I'm not sure I'd have characterized that as an editorial request; I'll have to consider my phrasing
18:20:38 [DanC]
modularizing the spec is editorial work; it's not a request to change the design/language, just to change the explanation of it
18:21:57 [Stuart]
q-
18:22:37 [Ashok]
TimBL: These are the tags ... everything else is ignored
18:23:09 [Ashok]
Fuzzy boundary between errors and what is ignored
18:23:22 [DanC]
q+ DaveO
18:24:36 [Ashok]
Noah: Using the word 'error' on something that is in the language bothers me
18:24:57 [DanC]
ack daveo
18:25:41 [DanC]
I suppose this bullet is relevant to defined/accept sets: "* The distinction between Ua requirements and authoring requirements"
18:27:20 [Ashok]
Noah: This impacts the versioning finding ... we shd look at it
18:28:12 [Ashok]
SW: Do we need to respond or ask for clarification ....
18:28:53 [Ashok]
DaveO: We shd pick a few impt questions
18:29:15 [Ashok]
DanC: I wanted TAG to take up content type and sniffing
18:29:51 [Ashok]
SW: Continue on this ... please take a look at it and think abt it.
18:30:12 [Ashok]
SW: Discusses meeting during TPAC
18:30:18 [Zakim]
-daveO
18:30:21 [Ashok]
SW: Adjouned
18:30:22 [Zakim]
-Norm
18:30:24 [Zakim]
-jar
18:30:25 [Zakim]
-??P0
18:30:25 [Zakim]
-Noah_Mendelsohn
18:30:26 [Zakim]
-TimBL
18:30:37 [Ashok]
s/Adjouned/Adjourned/
18:30:51 [Ashok]
rrsagent, make logs public
18:32:00 [Ashok]
rrsagent, make logs public
18:33:28 [Zakim]
-Ashok_Malhotra
18:38:29 [Zakim]
disconnecting the lone participant, DanC.a, in TAG_Weekly()1:00PM
18:38:32 [Zakim]
TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has ended
18:38:33 [Zakim]
Attendees were Stuart, +1.617.253.aaaa, jar, daveO, DanC.a, Ht, Ashok_Malhotra, Norm, TimBL, Noah_Mendelsohn
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