IRC log of forms on 2008-05-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:43:33 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #forms

14:43:33 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/05/28-forms-irc

14:43:39 [John_Boyer]

rrsagent, make log public

14:43:42 [John_Boyer]

zakim, who is here?

14:43:42 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Charlie

14:43:43 [Zakim]

On IRC I see RRSAgent, John_Boyer, Zakim, Charlie, wellsk, shepazu, nick, Steven, trackbot-ng

14:43:47 [unl]

unl has joined #forms

14:44:05 [John_Boyer]

Meeting: Weekly Forms WG Teleconference

14:44:11 [John_Boyer]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008May/0067.html

14:44:18 [John_Boyer]

John_Boyer has changed the topic to: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008May/0067.html

14:44:27 [John_Boyer]

Chair: John

14:44:30 [John_Boyer]

Scribe: Leigh

14:44:33 [John_Boyer]

Regrets: Erik

14:45:04 [Charlie]

zakim, who is here?

14:45:04 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Charlie

14:45:05 [Zakim]

On IRC I see unl, RRSAgent, John_Boyer, Zakim, Charlie, wellsk, shepazu, nick, Steven, trackbot-ng

14:45:32 [Zakim]

+John_Boyer

14:46:04 [Zakim]

+wellsk

14:46:14 [Zakim]

+unl

14:46:25 [unl]

zakim, mute me

14:46:25 [Zakim]

unl should now be muted

14:46:47 [Roger]

Roger has joined #forms

14:47:30 [Roger]

zakim, code?

14:47:30 [Zakim]

the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Roger

14:48:29 [John_Boyer]

zakim, who is here?

14:48:29 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Charlie, John_Boyer, wellsk, unl (muted)

14:48:30 [Zakim]

On IRC I see Roger, unl, RRSAgent, John_Boyer, Zakim, Charlie, wellsk, shepazu, nick, Steven, trackbot-ng

14:48:37 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-617

14:48:37 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

14:48:39 [Zakim]

+Steven

14:49:20 [Steven]

Mark says: I will be there...but about 15-20 minutes late.

14:49:58 [klotz]

klotz has joined #forms

14:50:02 [Zakim]

+Roger

14:50:10 [Roger]

zakim, mute me

14:50:10 [Zakim]

Roger should now be muted

14:51:28 [Zakim]

+Leigh_Klotz

14:51:50 [John_Boyer]

scribenick: Leigh_Klotz

14:52:07 [Zakim]

-Leigh_Klotz

14:52:41 [Zakim]

+Leigh_Klotz

14:53:20 [John_Boyer]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008May/0067.html

14:58:19 [John_Boyer]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Apr/0100.html

14:59:53 [unl]

i'm experiencing many drop outs. call back in again

15:00:02 [Zakim]

-unl

15:00:42 [Zakim]

+unl

15:00:53 [unl]

zakim, mute me

15:00:53 [Zakim]

unl should now be muted

15:04:30 [nic1]

nic1 has joined #forms

15:04:43 [klotz]

nic1 do you hear us?

15:04:50 [nic1]

zakim, code?

15:04:50 [Zakim]

the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), nic1

15:05:38 [Zakim]

+Nick_van_den_Bleeken

15:05:49 [klotz]

John: What does "NameTest" mean? I think what we ended up with, two Septembers ago, is that as an XPath expression is getting evaluated, any time we match a NameTest, we add that node to the list of nodes that are being referred to by the XPath expression. I think we did that so there would be more responsiveness of the compute system to predicate changes ("dynamic"), so if certain changes to the XPath happened, the various calculations would be able to detect

15:05:49 [klotz]

that a change of referencing it happened and would know to get recalculated. Nick has an example, and has run into some problems. If you execute the XPath expression he gives, you'll notice that it matches both of the 'a' nodes; if you read the expression from left to right, and look at the predicate next to the 'a', you'll notice it's trying to match 'a' whose attr value is 'X', but the way we've written the spec, it puts a in with x. So if any of the a elem

15:05:50 [klotz]

ents change, we respond to that; more importantly, if any of the attr nodes in any of the a's change, we'll respond to that as well, and that's part of the key. For any 'a' value that we match, we have a NameTest against each of those attributes as well, so all of the nodes that feed a predicate are considered. This seemed like a good idea. The alternative was that we would only register the register as dependencies those identified by a completed Location St

15:05:55 [klotz]

ep of an XPath expression, so from the predicate of the first 'a' step we might record only the element 'a' that matched the predicate. So the question was should we record only the matched nodes, or feed in all those that are tested. We went with the broader test, the one that keeps all references; that means we will follow all calculations. If you notice in the 'a' element, if you imagine that being changed to 'X', we detect that change and re-run whatever

15:06:02 [klotz]

calculates might have that full expression; whereas with narrower references (location step) only the 'a' that has attribute 'X' would have been recorded and if you change the value 'Z

15:10:50 [nic1]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Apr/0086.html

15:11:02 [markbirbeck]

markbirbeck has joined #forms

15:11:54 [markbirbeck]

zakim, code?

15:11:54 [Zakim]

the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck

15:12:45 [markbirbeck]

waves back! :)

15:13:22 [Zakim]

+ +1.208.761.aaaa

15:13:27 [markbirbeck]

akim, i am aaaa

15:13:34 [markbirbeck]

zakim, i am aaaa

15:13:34 [Zakim]

+markbirbeck; got it

15:13:53 [klotz]

http://xformstest.org/klotz/2008-05-28.txt

15:14:35 [Charlie]

* me too

15:15:00 [unl]

I'm feeling fine

15:16:31 [nic1]

I don't like to drop does extra dependencies, because I hate to add a rebuild to fix it

15:16:40 [John_Boyer]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Apr/0100.html

15:16:48 [nic1]

(but that is my opinion)

15:18:53 [John_Boyer]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Apr/0086.html

15:23:05 [nic1]

for the record, I don't have anything against the current wording, it adds the correct nodes to the dependency list in most cases I guess. And personally I only would like only to make changes if the change that __doesn't__ add extra cases where a manual rebuild is necessary.

15:23:22 [nic1]

(but this is what John is saying also)

15:24:44 [nic1]

agree with that

15:25:40 [unl]

i would like to keep the current behaviour, because this way can handle some dynamic dependencies just by static analysis

15:26:07 [John_Boyer]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Apr/0086.html

15:26:35 [nic1]

yes

15:26:51 [nic1]

unmute me

15:26:57 [nic1]

zakim, unmute me

15:26:57 [Zakim]

Nick_van_den_Bleeken was not muted, nic1

15:27:15 [nic1]

zakim, mute me

15:27:15 [Zakim]

Nick_van_den_Bleeken should now be muted

15:32:17 [John_Boyer]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008May/0047.html

15:32:30 [klotz]

ACTION: John Boyer to write a clarifying note in XForms 1.1 regarding dependencies and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Apr/0100.html and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Apr/0086.html

15:32:30 [trackbot-ng]

Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - John

15:32:30 [trackbot-ng]

Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jkugelma, jboyer)

15:33:35 [nic1]

I would expect also block-level elements

15:34:59 [nic1]

you can style for example a <span> as a block level element

15:35:31 [klotz]

<xf:message><xhtml:p><xf:input...

15:36:49 [nic1]

UI.textOrStructureOrAnything

15:39:03 [nic1]

(in XSL-FO flow is an element, containing all the flo stuf....)

15:39:11 [John_Boyer]

UI.Inline

15:39:18 [John_Boyer]

UI.Flow

15:39:22 [nic1]

UI.Contents ?

15:39:32 [klotz]

ACTION: John_Boyer to change XForms 1.1 document and Schema to rename UI.Inline to UI.Flow as a non-normative, editorial change.

15:39:32 [trackbot-ng]

Sorry, couldn't find user - John_Boyer

15:39:41 [nic1]

but don't have a hard feeling about it ;)

15:42:37 [John_Boyer]

s/UI.Flow/UI.Content and UI.Content.Extension

15:42:43 [Steven]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:42:43 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/05/28-forms-minutes.html Steven

15:44:24 [Charlie]

i can do that

15:44:27 [Steven]

http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-XMLHttpRequest-20080415/

15:44:48 [nic1]

XmlHttpRequest

15:45:07 [Charlie]

i can take events then

15:45:51 [klotz]

link for events?

15:46:11 [klotz]

ACTION: Mark Birbeck to review http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-XMLHttpRequest-20080415/ and present straw set of comments for discussion and approval at F2F.

15:46:11 [trackbot-ng]

Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - Mark

15:46:11 [trackbot-ng]

Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. mseaborn, mbirbeck)

15:48:10 [nic1]

<p rel="foaf:homePage" about="[ex:home.html]">home</p>

15:49:29 [Charlie]

* Leigh, are you doing the action for me to review XML events too?

15:49:39 [klotz]

Charlie I need the URI for the document for you to review.

15:51:13 [unl]

xml events 2: http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-xml-events-20070216/

15:51:20 [Charlie]

* i was looking too!

15:51:27 [klotz]

ACTION: Charlie Wiecha to review http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-xml-events-20070216/ and present straw set of comments for discussion and approval at F2F.

15:51:27 [trackbot-ng]

Sorry, couldn't find user - Charlie

15:51:52 [Steven]

http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-events2/

15:51:57 [Steven]

is the generic name

15:52:25 [Steven]

http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-curie-20080506/

15:53:18 [klotz]

ACTION: Leigh Klotz to review http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-curie-20080506/ by June 10th.

15:53:18 [trackbot-ng]

Created ACTION-463 - Klotz to review http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-curie-20080506/ by June 10th. [on Leigh Klotz, Jr. - due 2008-06-04].

15:55:52 [Steven]

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15:56:09 [Steven]

zakim, who is noisy?

15:56:15 [klotz]

http://rdfa.info/

15:56:21 [Zakim]

Steven, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: John_Boyer (36%), Leigh_Klotz (9%)

15:56:54 [markbirbeck]

http://planetxforms.org/

15:57:50 [John_Boyer]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008May/0043.html

15:58:25 [Steven]

Action: Steven to post http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008May/0043.html to news

15:58:25 [trackbot-ng]

Created ACTION-464 - Post http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008May/0043.html to news [on Steven Pemberton - due 2008-06-04].

16:02:27 [John_Boyer]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008May/0060.html

16:02:34 [John_Boyer]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008May/0061.html

16:04:23 [nic1]

I started to write XForms 1.2 spec text, and it is taking quite some time to just change anything, probably bcz. it is the first time

16:04:46 [nic1]

so I don't think I will have much time beside that before the ftf

16:07:32 [nic1]

zakim, unmute me

16:07:32 [Zakim]

Nick_van_den_Bleeken should no longer be muted

16:08:55 [Steven]

Steven has joined #forms

16:09:44 [Charlie]

i would love to help implement the simplified stuff

16:10:35 [markbirbeck]

You might not have a choice Charlie. ;)

16:11:58 [nic1]

In the future I can also allocate some time to work on it (during my employers time)

16:12:15 [markbirbeck]

Excellent nic1! :)

16:13:12 [markbirbeck]

I've also had interest from one of the big Ajax library creators, who has their own XML language.

16:13:57 [markbirbeck]

(Interest to add people to work on the library, that is.)

16:16:22 [Steven]

We don't have an announcement of Ubiquity on our homepage either

16:16:33 [Steven]

Anyone want to suggest text?

16:16:58 [markbirbeck]

Steven...would rather get a nicer looking sample available first. :)

16:17:05 [Zakim]

-markbirbeck

16:17:07 [Zakim]

-Charlie

16:17:07 [Zakim]

-unl

16:17:08 [klotz]

http://xformstest.org/klotz/shibumiscript/2008/05/ubiquity-xforms.html

16:17:08 [Zakim]

-John_Boyer

16:17:09 [nic1]

bye

16:17:09 [Zakim]

-Roger

16:17:11 [Charlie]

Charlie has left #forms

16:17:12 [Zakim]

-wellsk

16:17:13 [Zakim]

-Nick_van_den_Bleeken

16:17:15 [Zakim]

-Steven

16:17:16 [Zakim]

-Leigh_Klotz

16:17:17 [Zakim]

HTML_Forms()10:45AM has ended

16:17:19 [Zakim]

Attendees were Charlie, John_Boyer, wellsk, unl, Steven, Roger, Leigh_Klotz, Nick_van_den_Bleeken, +1.208.761.aaaa, markbirbeck

16:17:23 [John_Boyer]

John_Boyer has joined #forms

16:17:34 [John_Boyer]

rrsagent, make minutes

16:17:34 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/05/28-forms-minutes.html John_Boyer

16:17:42 [John_Boyer]

zakim, who is here?

16:17:42 [Zakim]

apparently HTML_Forms()10:45AM has ended, John_Boyer

16:17:43 [Zakim]

On IRC I see John_Boyer, Steven, markbirbeck, nic1, klotz, unl, RRSAgent, Zakim, wellsk, shepazu, trackbot-ng

16:17:44 [wellsk]

wellsk has left #forms

16:17:52 [John_Boyer]

rrsagent, bye

16:17:52 [RRSAgent]

I see 6 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/28-forms-actions.rdf :

16:17:52 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: John Boyer to write a clarifying note in XForms 1.1 regarding dependencies and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Apr/0100.html and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Apr/0086.html [1]

16:17:52 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/28-forms-irc#T15-32-30

16:17:52 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: John_Boyer to change XForms 1.1 document and Schema to rename UI.Inline to UI.Flow as a non-normative, editorial change. [2]

16:17:52 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/28-forms-irc#T15-39-32

16:17:52 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Mark Birbeck to review http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-XMLHttpRequest-20080415/ and present straw set of comments for discussion and approval at F2F. [3]

16:17:52 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/28-forms-irc#T15-46-11

16:17:52 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Charlie Wiecha to review http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-xml-events-20070216/ and present straw set of comments for discussion and approval at F2F. [4]

16:17:52 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/28-forms-irc#T15-51-27

16:17:52 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Leigh Klotz to review http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-curie-20080506/ by June 10th. [5]

16:17:52 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/28-forms-irc#T15-53-18

16:17:52 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Steven to post http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008May/0043.html to news [6]

16:17:52 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/28-forms-irc#T15-58-25

16:17:54 [markbirbeck]

Steven: Maybe announce it early next week?

16:18:09 [Steven]

as you wish Mark

16:18:19 [John_Boyer]

John_Boyer has left #forms